Avoiding Metagaming as a Player

No one likes a metagamer, Dawn talks about ways to avoid metagaming when you're a player in a ttrpg.
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[@Drudenfusz]

I would say people should only avoid bad metagaming, since there is plenty of metagaming that can enhance the game for everyone at the table. Like when I know something about a fellow players character and create a situation as a player to let them play that trait out.

[@Roll4Initiative]

That's a good point! Technically that is metagaming but it's uplifting the story and game rather than cheating or undercutting it

[@wacoglee]

I like this thought because sometimes “opportunities” to metagame could be turned into opportunities to roleplay

[@andybutula3671]

Or just the fact that the other PCs are PCs. Half the time adventuring parties make no real sense, and only choose to group up in the first place because they're the players.

[@ranty_fugue]

“Don’t react to the roll, react to the description the GM provides”. Really awesome advice!

[@TarEcthelion]

This is why the Secret roll mechanic in PF2 has been great. Honest roleplay based only on the GM's response

[@ranty_fugue]

@@TarEcthelion I’m not familiar with this PF2 mechanic. Can you elaborate? For some time, I’ve been rolling “behind the screen” for players’ checks that aren’t immediately obvious, and when appropriate, having them make an int or wis check to know generally how well they did. It’s a little awkward at times, so I’m curious to hear about other approaches!

[@TarEcthelion]

@@ranty_fugue Pathfinder 2e has traits on actions that are essentially meta data. One is the Secret tag that means the GM will roll for the Player and explain the outcome without explaining the degree of success. A good example is when identifying a magic item; the character might misidentify it as something else and it will be an honest surprise for all if/when the truth is revealed, and if the player had seen the numerical value they might conveniently choose to "get a second opinion" or avoid the item etc. It makes things more genuine and helps unburden those who have trouble separating player and character knowledge. 2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=176

[@ranty_fugue]

@@TarEcthelion Thanks!

[@agentcazu]

Something I do for one of my characters is I have letters that I wrote in character of what my character experienced and her thoughts to what she and the groups are going through in the story. This method is not out of character for her and helps me get back into character with what she knows versus what I know.

[@Roll4Initiative]

That's a cool way of getting into character and keeping notes!

[@thomasgrable1746]

I once played a half-orc barbarian encountering a giant lizard in a dungeon. The Game Master emphasized that the lizard had eight legs. Now, I know that means it's a basilisk, but my character only thought, "More drumsticks!" I charged and hit it, and it turned its gaze on us. The player trying to metagame by holding his shield up in front of him as he advanced let it slip a bit and turned to stone. My barbarian rolled a natural 20 on the save and then finished off the basilisk. Thanks to dumb luck he survived!

[@StarFyreXXX]

id argue your barbarian would know what a basilisk is. in THAT world, basilisks are a thing and they arent some rare demon creature from another dimension. its something people may encounter in a cave or swamp. so really, for stuff thats somewhat common, adventurers would be aware of general ideas, descriptions, etc

[@thomasgrable1746]

@@StarFyreXXX The point of the video is that "common knowledge" is up the Game Master to decide. Perhaps in your campaign, basilisks are a common threat and might be recognized by your average adventurer. But for most, unless the character has encountered it before, it would require a some kind of Knowledge check (this was several editions ago, mind you).

[@StarFyreXXX]

@@thomasgrable1746 oh i get that. ive played since 2e and IIRC there were even notes or references to stuff like that. maybe it was 3e. but , i think what ppl never reallytalk about. yes its DM discretion however, some of this really belongs in the verisimilitude of the world. most D&d settings are not just ignorant dark ages style europe. some cities have dragons that routinely fly nearby, or walking statues, and magic is real. THe same way we have knowledge of stuff that we have no job experience doing. ie. i know the general concept of how a nuclear bomb works, or how planes fly, or how nasa figures out the distance of a star. i also know about lots of animals, sharks, etc . They, on lets say TOril, would have some general knowledge of common, uncommon and a few rare things in their world .

[@dwdillydally]

It's brillant that you're flipped the framing on this! Love that you're putting the power in the players' hands.

[@troubaderring-do9640]

As a GM, I want to chime in that it's very table dependent as to what is considered egregious metagaming and what is not. For example, while I might be annoyed at a player starting an encounter by saying "oh, this rare creature is weak to XYZ damage types!" I certainly don't take issue with players deducing stats of monsters mid-combat, such as determining what the creature's Fortitude bonus is, or its exact AC. And if they use Recall Knowledge, I'll happily give them numerical data on monster strengths and weaknesses, rather than beating around the bush like, "oh, this monster's reflexes are honed to a point similar yet not exactly the same as an adventurer who has fought several battles, yet not over-many." I also don't mind when a player breaks out meta-knowledge when a fight is going over-long, especially since in the instance I'm thinking of, the player asked first by saying something like "can I say what the weakness is?" after the 4th or 5th time the troll regenerated from death with nobody thinking to use fire. (What's funny is he didn't know for sure that he was right, as his knowledge came from Guild Wars, not a TTRPG.) That's not to say I don't value immersion and story telling, it's just that I appreciate a bit of gamification when combat starts. Basically what I'm saying is: players, check with your GMs on what they want, and GMs, communicate what is and is not acceptable to your players.

[@austinsecrest8887]

One DM I had liked when I wrote a journal style recap. Funny backstory, my ranger befriended a wolf whom i named max. From that point on the journal was written in Max's perspective

[@dwdillydally]

~Don't chime in if your character is not there~ is such a simple 'rule'! And the one I see broken most often. I see it most often when extroverted people who are enjoying the game so much that they unintentionally insert themselves into every scene. 😆🙊 Luckily, it just takes practice to adjust the impulse. Or somehow make meta-gaming part of your game. P.S. I'm an introvert at heart. So any extroverts are welcome to correct me. 😘

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Good points I’ve run into this at conventions where I’m not sure if my pregenerated character knows it’s a troll, so I asked the DM would he know this creature?

[@danepatterson8107]

Great video. It should be required viewing any time you have new campaigns or new players. Excellent contribution to gaming and roleplaying

[@Matt_Volk]

A prescription to help metagaming, especially for those two don't realize that they're doing it, is to have them engage in solo RPG play. This exercise requires them to compartmentalize in order to actually have fun. So then later, when they're playing with other people, they will have a better way to understand when to metagame and when not to.

[@AxidentalDM]

Metagaming ... a perennial issue. In general, I find my players to be pretty good about trying not to metagame during a session, but when they do a quick verbal reminder is sufficient. Also as a GM, I've no problem reskining a monster or tweaking it's stats. So sure, the player knows what the monster manual says, but that's not necessarily the way they behave in my world. So I think GMs not being too stuck on the text in the books goes along way to help against metagaming.

[@davidk6269]

When I first read the title of your video, I thought to myself: "What? I used to love the old Metagaming line of games from the '70s and early '80's." I guess I'm showing my age. ; )

[@danepatterson8107]

Numbers don't go that high

[@TeaLeaf91]

Last night a player recognized a creature I, the DM, described (he fought something similar in elden ring) and then told everyone what it was. However, his character absolutely had no idea what it was. He then proceeded to show everyone a picture of what it looked like that he found online. He was arguing that there’s nothing wrong with what he did because he already knew what it was. He also keeps track of HP and the AC of everything the group fights. He is known to, and is very open and proud of, finding exploits in video games and using it to make his characters OP.

[@Roll4Initiative]

😬

[@austinsecrest8887]

Inner city party split. One is shopping, others are spending time with family. The shopper is getting screwed in the market and the others not present: Don't buy it. Me: Guys, you're not with him

[@seanhillman1016]

I think the die rolls are the metagaming that wrankles me the most. And I am as guilty as anyone. The system (D&D, PF) is too easy to do the math with and if you have even a clue as to the DC, success or failure is going to be obvious. A game like Call of Cthulhu is different in this regard, because you know the % of success before hand. The Year Zero Engine is another example, where success is very obvious. In these cases it is part of the paradigm of play that everyone knows if they succeeded or failed, without needing the GM to determine that success. But in D&D there is supposed to be some mystery, some tension as the DM looks at the roll, checks their notes, and then lets the group know what is happening. Too much meta can subvert this idea and makes for non-fun. It can also lead to other people making rolls because they think the first person failed. Lots of trouble there.

[@Roll4Initiative]

Great points about systems that you know the success level prior to the roll. Depending on the roll and the success level, there are times that you as a player know you failed but your character might not. Especially in the case of a critical or glitch roll

[@lugh.i]

One of the best ways to avoid metagaming for bad rolls is to make some rolls secret, Pathfinder 2E uses this extensively and it's a core part of the system. For example, all Perception rolls are secret, made by the GM, so the player could only attempt to roll against finding traps ONCE for room in the same general amount of time, future attempts yield the same result for that area. This also avoid the typical "I saw my roll was bad, lets get out of the room, take a rest, come back and make the roll again just in case" player or similar cases.

[@Roll4Initiative]

That’s one of our favorite things about PF2!

[@andybutula3671]

The problem is that you can't un-know something, and that knowledge will always impact your actions. For stuff like monster stats if you go into a fight knowing something just use it to the best of your ability, but don't blurt it out. For things that one character knows but another doesn't it's better for the DM to pass a note or take the player aside, especially if it's something anyone could figure out independently. I'm totally with you on the rolls though. One rule I have is that if you check for traps you are committing to opening the door, crossing the hall, etc. Obviously not if you find something, but if you think it's clear, time to move on. It also prevents closed doors from sucking up more game time than half the fights.

[@HowtoRPG]

A well rounded list of points.

[@tylerkerr4796]

There was a moment in a campaign that a water Elemental was going to wipe the party. The DM would have let someone die. But I didn't want that person to lose their character cause they enjoyed it. So I did look up the stat block in order to save the party.

[@cmwinchell]

The few times I get to play I take a lot of things into consideration. For example, if I take the Haunted One background I'm going to base my character's general knowledge on what the Harrowing Event was. Used to be a werewolf? Has more knowledge on werecreatures than most characters, but not a fully comprehensive knowledge of all types. An example, he definitely knows that all were creatures are resistant to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage from non-magical weapons that aren't silvered; however, he doesn't know that Wererats are actually immune to damage from non-magical weapons unless they are silvered.

[@si1verg3cko]

I will be the first to admit I get a little work up when metagaming is mentioned given how often the term is thrown around and not necessarily in a way that is correct or even constructive. In a similar fashion a lot of people don't often realize how many things technically all under the definition of metagaming and quite frankly avoiding it at all is unavoidable (examples even include something as simple as knowing what your HP is and reacting accordingly or when joining a game choosing a class that fills a niche that's needed among the group and yes these count). In the worst instances I even seen the term effectively used as a club to beat down a player verbally for some of their choices they made in game that had legitimate reason and sadly something I have seen multiple times. What I am about to say is not going to be a one size fit's all solution but my general stance is unless a player doing stuff like outright reading ahead in an adventure, opening up a monster manual and reading stat blocks for a creature as they are fighting it, or acting on information their character can't possibly know (though sometimes logic can surprisingly dictate otherwise in some cases) such as a paladin acting on a conversation in front of them that is being spoken in a language they don't know like thieves cant than in many instances it might not be a big deal or worth stressing over. I won't deny sometimes it does come down to play styles and not all players or DMs are necessarily a fit for every group. How some ultra casual groups may act in some games may appall another that is into hard core roleplaying but honestly neither approach is wrong. And for that matter if none of the players are having issues either it may not be worth dealing with as long as everyone is having fun which is the most important thing at the end of the day. And sometimes the issue can be solved as a DM by making small adjustments on their end that take no effort and players won't even notice (such as saying an 8 foot tall hulking grey humanoid rises from the swamp instead of stating they stumble across a troll which let's be real most players will treat a troll like a troll if they know it's a troll). Sorry for this being more long winded than I expected (someone mentioning metagaming always gets me going, going back to using the word as a verbal club analogy which I have seen and been on the receiving end of and many of those cases were not justified at all though others sure). I do think resolving things as peacefully as possible is important if there truly is an issue and one on one is usually best. Also good to step back and look at the situation as objectively as possible even consulting others and see if there really is an actual issue and is there harm being done.

[@Roll4Initiative]

Good point about "harm being done". If it's not harming or taking away from the fun of the game, yeah there are times where technically metagaming does make it a better game.

[@PathfinderBill]

Awesome video & shirt...I need to get one of those!! 😃

[@Roll4Initiative]

Paolas Pixels makes great shirts! paolaspixels.com/

[@PathfinderBill]

@@Roll4Initiative Thanks for the link!! Question... Have you ever done a video on ways to deal with DM burnout? Like how you two have dealt with it, if you've been through it, and what methods that have helped you. 😐😊

[@livingtorture5745]

Metagaming = Sole reason I went from MMO back to TT.

[@IainCiplinski]

My warrior character Mykael doesn't know he's got a level in paladin yet, it's not something that's come up

[@Rik_Lazer]

What do you do if it's the DM that's metagaming? All his battles have monsters that have true sight, resistance to magic and even mindless monsters seem to have a lot of knowledge about our characters? Or if we plan for a battle, try to spring an ambush or escape a dungeon, there's always something that counters our plan, no matter how detailed the plan is?

[@dwdillydally]

Part of the DM's job is to meta-game. But that said... it sounds like your DM is playing a players *against* DM. It's much more fun if the DM balances challenging the player characters and enthusiastically rooting for them.

[@SchroomMetanoia]

I have a very difficult situation at the moment. As I am preparing a campaign myself, I know certain Monster sheets by heart. And in the campaign I am currently a player in, we are coming up against one of these monsters and I know that if we just charge in it will very probably result in a TPK. Now I talked out of game to the other players about this as I want to avoid meta gaming in game. We decided to ask the DM in the next session if any of our characters know anything about that monster and will decide on how to continue based on that information. But is the fact to ask the DM not meta gaming in itself? as, if I as a player didn't have that information I would not even have thought about asking the DM?

[@Roll4Initiative]

I think asking the DM what your characters know is the best way to handle it. You are making sure that your knowledge as a player doesn't change how your character would act.

[@peterireland4344]

@@Roll4Initiative Thanks for the vid - it's super useful. I'm an experienced DM who does happen to know much of the monster manual off by heart. As a player, I frequently encounter a situation where I know, say, that the opponent is immune to a certain damage type. I have a number of options, some of which will be useless against that opponent - and I feel almost obliged to use one of the useless ones and "find out" the hard way. Which is itself a form of metagaming ("Oh dear, this wraith is immune to poison, I'd better try necrotic.") I'm trying to develop a simple system where I choose randomly between my apparent options, as perceived by the PC, but it's a little clunky. Do you have any better suggestions?

[@markberard804]

I think meta gaming is ok to some degree, in that if you were a real person in a real world, you would be receiving way more info than just what the DM is describing to you. So allowing the use of some level of meta gaming is good, in fact necessary and we take advantage of it by just knowing what type of game we are in (low or high fantasy, horror, sci-fi, etc)

[@ksastrophy]

If you know monster's stats, metagame can't ruin the figuring out part, because it's already non existent. Otherwise nice video!

[@danepatterson8107]

I'm of the opinion that Pathfinder (1e or 2e) really draws a mechanically astute crowd and they have a very difficult time actually roleplaying characters. The Pathfinder world isn't particularly helpful in this as it tends to portray the world in something beyond high magic accessible everywhere. I think organized play probably suffers from this more than elsewhere because of the limited tool set a 1-time GM has to encourage good and discourage bad roleplay.