B-17 Bomber Formation Flying Advantages

Enclosed is a detailed video outlining the various formations adopted by the WWII B-17 bomber flying in the European theater. There were 11 formations adopted in WWII. The video will discuss considerations of bombers flying in formation during WWII.

[@karoleenascottage]

My former father in law was a B-17 navigator shot down over France and spent 406 days in Stalag Luft III. His and fellow crew members’ story is described in the book Coffin Corner Boys. Thank you for providing details about the plane and practices that help to understand conditions and challenges these brave men accepted every flight.

[@emmgeevideo]

I just bought the Kindle version on Amazon...

[@karoleenascottage]

@@emmgeevideo That’s awesome! My father in law was Ted Badder. Enjoy the book!

[@emmgeevideo]

@@karoleenascottage I had the honor in 2014 to meet a busload of B-17 crew members at Moffett Field in the SF Bay Area. It was Memorial Day weekend and they had a bunch of WW II airplanes there that took people for rides and you could also just go inside and look around. The B-17 Nine 0 Nine was there, which tragically crashed recently at Bradley Airport in Connecticut. Of course these guys weren't spring chickens... Some were in wheel chairs and some with walkers. But they were a spirited bunch and so glad to see a B-17 in the flesh. I got to talk to some of them and just take it in. These were the guys who risked their lives nearly every day in frigid skies with enemy flak and fighters trying to kill them. It was a true honor.

[@karoleenascottage]

@@emmgeevideo I completely understand the feeling. It was in the 1980s that I had the privilege of hearing my father in law’s experience first hand. I was full of questions and hung on to every word. There’s so much more I wish I’d asked him about. I do remember him saying that it was customary for German fighters to circle back and strafe aircrews who had bailed out of their damaged planes. When Ted’s group bailed out of their B-17 Ted saw the German fighter circle back and approach them. Ted swung his parachute around so he wasn’t facing the fighter as he approached but the pilot kept going and didn’t shoot aircrews that day. There are a few other things that are not in the book that are particularly meaningful, especially the fact that Ted went on to retire from the military. However he was so traumatized by his POW experience that he had difficulty continuing on in his Navigator role. He ended up resigning his commission and served the rest of his time in the Air Force as an E-7. I really had no idea how bad Stalag Luft III was until I read a couple of books about it. Amazing men to have served and fought so bravely. And I did see a couple of recent videos about the accident investigation of nine o nine’s crash. So unfortunate.

[@stumcfadzen750]

Professional, well-researched, and well-scripted videos. Thank you for "filling in the gaps" - covering specific technical details, not just pumping out glamorous content.

[@Beemer917]

A good friend , Dan Clark , was a bombedier on schwienfurt raid. Later he was a POW. RIP Dan. We love ya.

[@tedgoerner7983]

Fascinating videos. Very well done! My uncle was a B17 navigator and I have always been in awe of the plane and the men who flew them.

[@WWIIUSBombers]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@damndirtyrandy7721]

I’ve ridden in the B-17 Sentimental Journey at the upper turret position, insane. I can’t imagine flying in these unpressurized beasts 30,000 feet over Europe, weighed down with sheepskin and armor trying to hit fast moving specks that shoot back…

[@FranktheDachshund]

Really amazing content you are putting out. I always wondered with all of those 50 caliber machine guns how frequent were incidents of accidental friendly fire.

[@weyes2wonder]

I just found your channel and am beginning to view your vids. Excellent content Keith! The details you provide contribute much insight to a history that is not only extremely interesting, but also worthy of being remembered. I'm trying to understand the role my Dad served as an Eight Air Force command bomber pilot, based out of England. He flew more than his obligation of missions during the early phases of the air war over the Third Reich, including the original raid on Shweinfurt. Over the duration of his tour, he lost most of his squadron and many crew members that defended his ship. But he always got his crews home, whether ditching in the 'channel just off of Dover, or limping back to "ANY BASE" (the name of his ship) he could find... in a '17 that was often so shot-up, it shouldn't have remained airborne.

[@stratotramp6243]

props to your Dad 👍

[@DavidSmith-ss1cg]

This is GREAT to see all this information collected in one video. I had known about the purpose of the design of the Box Formations but have never seen all these great WW2-period illustrations. My Father(who was a B-17 co-pilot) went through all of his training with the same group of 10 guys, but they were split up and used as replacements for killed or wounded aircrew, and this may have made them less effective in battling the German interceptors. Of course, that didn't make much difference in October 1943, when he was shot down in the 2nd Schweinfurt Ball-bearing factory raid. He spent the next 2 years in Stalag Luft 1 in Barth, Germany - which was in East Germany when I was stationed in Germany when I was in the US Army, so I wasn't able to visit there.

[@robpelick7460]

My brother's father in law, Charles Howell, spent 12 months in Stalag Luft 1 as a guest of the Germans. He told me the German pilots were friendly to the point of inviting them to have dinner with them after they arrived The SS guards, however, were another story

[@nickdanger3802]

“Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down, or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But to curve in towards 40 Fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes. And when you yourself have reached this state of mind, it becomes that much more difficult to have to drive every pilot of the Geschwader, right down to the youngest and lowliest NCO, to do the same.” Hans Philipp in a letter to Hannes Trautloft, 4 October 1943. Philipp was KIA 4 days later, possibly By Robert S. Johnson, during a raid on Bremen. Weapons and Warfare Attacking a B-17 formation from the German side! page

[@dukecraig2402]

It's funny because just a few weeks ago I read an abridged version of that, the part where he said "...but the first time I turned into a B17 box every sin I ever committed in my life flashed right before my eyes..." really sums it up what it was like for those guy's attacking a B17 formation. There's also a couple of ex German fighter pilots in a video here on KZbin that when ask what that experience was like the one said "...if there was only one or two of you it was pretty much committing suicide."

[@sirbader1]

Philipp and Trautloft, JG54's OGs.

[@whazzat8015]

That's why they spell their name Danger.

[@stratotramp6243]

Ditto, great content, well researched and clearly delivered 👍

[@theromanorder]

0:45 7th formation 1:33 8th formation (fighter escort) 3:45 lack of forward fire power 4:43 cone formation 5:00 anti ground formation Close, better bomb droping but more vanrable and more strain on pilots 5:43 things to consider (also visabilty) 7:05 other needs for fighter escort 7:32 number 7, v formation (and units) 10:50 bomb droping 11 35 reform for return 13:00 54 wing vs new 36 wing (like formation 8)

[@nicklappos]

Very nicely done, your whole series of videos is fantastic. I'm a student of eighth Air Force tactics and very reasonably knowledgeable, but the depth and detail of your reports is a whole another level for me. My dad was a waist gunner in the 94th bomb group and told me many tales of his missions, I regret that he never had the opportunity to see your work. Please keep it up is marvelous documentation for the longer future.

[@gearloose703]

I like the pace and way of presenting. Well done. Thanks!

[@kdjorgensen98]

An excellent explanation and breakdown of tactics! Thank you and well done!

[@balham456]

This channel’s research is outstanding.

[@mootpointjones8488]

Thanks for the excellent explanation.

[@ret7army]

RE: the Schweinfurt Raid losses ... the group commander was inexperienced, moving into theater from duty as a sub hunter. Due to reasons that I don't recall they were late getting to their outbound rally point over England. The lead then attempted to not just rejoin the bomber train formation but tried to get back to his originally slotted position. The maneuvers this required had his group scattered all over, effectively stragglers from the get go and the German fighters had a field day.

[@youngoldboy3430]

My mother who lived in Bedford tolled me how the American bomber would circle around for hours as they got into formation before leaving on a raid.

[@notmenotme614]

10:55 Note that in large formations not every aircraft had a Bomb Aimer. The lead aircraft would have a Master Bombardier while many of the aircraft at the back of the formation only had a “Toggleer” who did no aiming but released the bombs when he saw the lead aircraft release its bombs.

[@dukecraig2402]

At first they all had bombardier's or a "bomb aimer" as sometimes called, it was after a certain point in 1943 that they went to the system you described.

[@jkennan]

Good research and very interesting. Thanks.

[@kevinpaulson2659]

Great channel! Interesting topics. Thanks for doing this.

[@WWIIUSBombers]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@markfung5654]

I have difficulty picturing 3D . You've done a great 🎉 job helping me.

[@notmenotme614]

What’s interesting is these bombers would form up while flying circles over England. Sometimes it would take hours to form up a combat box or group. Specially bright painted aircraft called “Assembly Ships” were used for the other aircraft to formate on, then these bright painted aircraft would then return to base, as the completed formation flew on. It’s worth looking up the paint schemes of these Assembly Ships !!!

[@cameronbooker445]

Natural metal non painted aircraft?

[@sking3492]

Imagine say, a 1000 bomber raid. Squadrons all over the U.K.,forming up at different times. Coordinating with the fighter escorts. The noise from those engines cranking up....meeting over the channel or somewhere in Europe...incredibly brave men.

[@sehr56]

I really Appreciate this channel! As others of noted, fantastic content and very nicely explained. Although I do have to do a lot of pausing to take notes! Lol!!! Great job!

[@howeymusic4091]

Great videos! I'm a retired USAF pilot who was inspired by the B-17. I flew formations in the T-38 and the C-141 and always used visual cues to hold position. Have you ever run across pilot techniques used to stay in formation?

[@mandolinic]

Interesting to note that those terms are used in the more senior RAF ranks: Squadron Leader, Wing Commander, Group Captain.

[@whazzat8015]

The formations were also responsible for a lot of Friendly Fire kills, when you look at the loss stats, (? bullets of unknown origin? numbers given in chart seem mighty low.) and induced the rocket attacks, where the packed formation was more vulnerable

[@mattrowland473]

Thanks!

[@WWIIUSBombers]

Matt, I appreciate the super thanks.

[@infantryattacks]

The chart depicting the formation of the 305th Bomb Group during the 2nd Schweinfurt Raid is misleading. According to the author of "Wrong Time! Wrong Place!" the 305th BG never achieved this formation. Rather the acting Group Commander got lost, missed rendezvous times and places, and through sudden speed and course corrections managed to scatter the group in more of a line astern formation. Accordingly the group was badly strung out when the Luftwaffe day fighters struck in force. Losses would almost certainly have been much lower if the 305th BG had flown the tight formation depicted by the chart. Unfortunately the acting lead lied through his teeth during the post strike debriefing. Even though the actual group Commander, combat wing Commander, and Commander of EIGHTH Air Force quickly realized this guy was lying to cover his butt, they did not correct or punish him. Rather he was decorated and promoted, much to the disgust of the handful of 305th BG survivors.

[@EnigmaCodeCrusher]

Please discuss the zig zagging that was done to confuse the flak crews.

[@nickdanger3802]

As the Luftwaffe encountered more Allied heavy bomber raids, it became apparent that great increases in defensive fighter firepower were needed, especially against the even more heavily armed American bombers. This dynamic led to the development of ever more heavily armed sub-types of fighters, including some Focke-Wulf 190s with six 20 mm cannon, the most ever mounted in a German single-engine fighter (Dill 2015, 50-4). This sub-type entered service concurrently with the most powerful weapon used by German fighters during the war, the 210 mm rocket mortar, which was used in significant numbers from July 1943 onwards both on the Western Front and in the Mediterranean, but not in the East (Forsyth 2016b, 53-7). The ultimate result of these developments, focused on the needs of defence against strategic bombing, was that the aircraft types retained on the Eastern front were ever more poorly armed in comparison to those in the West. Just 15% of Luftwaffe aircraft guns were allocated to the East by January 1944 (Table 4), a much lower proportion that the 34% of combat aircraft allocated to this theatre (Table 2). While the desperate German attempts to develop technology to confront Allied pressure have been noted in the literature (van Creveld 2011, 116-7), as has the German tendency to use older aircraft in the East (O’Brien 2015: 65, 291). What has not been sufficiently emphasised is that these aircraft possessed considerably less firepower, on average, as demonstrated here. page 15 How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 pdf

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

4:12 the chin turret was actually introduced on later model F B-17s, predating the B-17G.

[@ReflectedSimulations]

What was the difference between the early and the later war 36 a/c group formations, please? I’d love to know. Thanks

[@CueBall909]

I’d like to know more about how shell casings could damage aircraft and how that damage was determined. Do you have additional information on that? If so, it would make an I retesting future video.

[@cameronbooker445]

Each engine has 3 air intakes if you watch his b-17 engine video plus thats just tons of brass cases raining on planes behind and below you. I'm sure several bouncing off windshield or skin didn't damage much but accelerated from prop strike or other unknowns sounds pretty unsafe. Crews encountered more situations than just flak and enemy aircraft for sure..

[@dfw3355]

The greatest generation.

[@moodswingy1973]

Great vids but with so much technical info the narrators voice should be nerdier. Would it be possible for the voice to be nerdier?

[@DemonRodger]

My great grandfather had nothing to do with aircraft during ww2 but he did command a Sherman tank

[@hamishneilson7140]

You mentioned a few times they echeloned towards the sun, can you explain why that would be?

[@sirbader1]

Made it harder to see.

[@bradwilliams427]

Can anyone tell with so many bombers flying so close together in formation how did they keep from sweeping each other I understand how they kept From hitting there on ac but I haven’t found any info while in combat how they kept from sweeping each other please advise

[@danielebrparish4271]

Most attacks were from the front only and were in shooting range for only about 3 seconds before they were out of sight. If a bomber was damaged and had to fight their way home both waist gunners had wide open fields of fire. In formation only the lead and tail planes of an element had clear wide open fields of fire. The two middle bombers in the element had waist gunners that were facing each other and so didn't shoot because they couldn't see attacking planes from that position and it was not possible for fighters to get between them. The tail gunner of the lead bomber in an element didn't get any targets because the tail gunners on the rear bombers took care of those attacks. Enemy fighters learned very early in the war that trying to attack a formation from the rear was suicidal and very rarely resulted in damaging or destroying a bomber. So they only went in from the front or would get above the formation and make a pass from above at the 10 o'clock position where they would keep firing until they exited at the 5 o'clock position below the bomber. The fighters liked to hang back out of range and get just close enough to possibly hit the rear most bomber of the formation. The enemy fighters would leave as the formation came into range of the anti-aircraft guns. As the bombers were leaving the target area fighters would move in and pick up the relatively defenseless damaged bombers.

[@MrKen-wy5dk]

I think I would have joined the Navy instead.

[@johnnicatra570]

My Dad was shot down just before the swinefort mission. which probably saves his life.

[@parapsychologist5402]

If it was so disciplined formation....why did they lose 30,000+ crewmen and so many of the BEST generation ever.

[@sirbader1]

Only a Hebrew could make this claim. They were no different than any other. You must have pretty low expectations.

[@chamonix4658]

because it was still incredibly dangerous? casualties would of been much higher without disciplined formations. its not hard, spend a few seconds thinking before you comment and save everyones time

[@kenneth9874]

Devide by sorties and consider the opposition and crew sizes, compared to others in similar situations they did well

[@shaymcquaid]

Really amazing content you are putting out. I always wondered with all of those 50 caliber machine guns how frequent were incidents of accidental friendly fire.

[@danielebrparish4271]

Between bombers I think it was either very rare or there was no way to tell whether the bullets that hit your bomber came from another bomber or an enemy fighter. There were enough cases of bombers shooting on escorting fighters that the escorts didn't follow enemy fighters going into the formation. They jumped them when they came out the other side which didn't happen often because the escorts attacked them before they reached the formation.