B2 Keep on the Borderland One of the Worst D&D Modules

I recently read an articleby author Paul Bellow on the top six worst D&D modules of all time and decided to talk about his take on the classic module - B2 "Keep on the Borderlands"
Link to the original article - litrpgreads.co...
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[@christopherdecator9742]

Running the Goodman Games republished version for 5e. (Although, I wouldn't mind running it with my Rules Cyclopedia if I had my way.) I came into gaming a decade or so later so there's no nostalgia for me. It differs from the usual fare in that there is no central villian or no background plot for the PCs to foil and no conditions for "victory." Its purely a situation not a plot. You have all the elements for plots to organically arise. I think that's a far more sophisticated approach than a series of linear encounters that presupposes the PCs are interested in foiling a plot.

[@elfbait3774]

This is exactly what B2 is and i completely agree that it is, in many ways, far mroe sophisticated a setup than most modules.

[@captcorajus]

Well said!

[@Lightmane]

In my opinion, B2 is the greatest D&D module ever written. I think it's so good that it inspired me to write a book based around it. This was also the first book I've ever written, and I've since written Book Two. I plan on writing Book Three next year, and books Four and Five the following two years after that. I've also narrated my story on my channel, so if you'd like to listen to it, feel free. I'm not making any money on yt, as I'm nowhere close to 1k subscribers, so I'm not making this comment to profit off of it. Also, I self-published it, so I'm not making any money with my book either, but I didn't write it to make money. I wrote it because I wanted to. So Elf Bait, and anyone else who's interested, I hope you at least listen to my introductory video, and let me know what you think. Both books are in their own playlists, so they're very easy to find. Maybe we can chat sometime.

[@CaptCook999]

This was the first module that I played in. Before then I had played in another game created by the DM. We had more fun and excitement playing in this module than any other. Finding rumors, buying more arrows and oil and torches so we could go back again and again. Barely surviving the Owl Bear encounter. Fleeing from the Hobgoblins. Dying, creating more characters, buying more equipment and going right back to explore those caves again and again. Encountering the first creature that couldn't be hurt without a magic weapon and being scared half to death. We explored probably half of the map before finally moving on to something else with our great heroes who had survived. I know that it was a pretty plain Jane module. None of the vendors had names. Our DM gave them all names. Our DM gave them character and quirks and brought them to life.

[@zanehuether6031]

Appreciate the counterpoint. B2 was replayed multiple times in my group as a launch point for each of us trying out being a player or DM. So much fun

[@Merlinstergandaldore]

"It's also objectively a very bad modules" and "accidentally published on accident!' - He's objectively a very bad 'editors!'

[@Omenowl]

If only there was a person who was showing how to run said module as a campaign…

[@Merlinstergandaldore]

@@Omenowl If only... but as the clearly award winning journalist mentions in his article, no one would run it these days because it's so objectively terrible... 🤪

[@elfbait3774]

:)

[@lionelhutz3142]

😂👍🏼 I heard Paul Bellows didn't like Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy because there were parts where the characters didn't "speaka da english"

[@BX-advocate]

Hey Merlinstergandaldore good to see you! Lol good point. This article comes off as someone trying to be a contrarian to look cool.

[@destroso]

I recently got back into D&D for my son with the OSR being a thing, I hate 5e and the people around it. I downloaded and read B2, it was an eye opener. I as the DM have to make the world alive, no one is going to hold my hand, I was surprised but it opened my imagination!

[@elfbait3774]

I'm glad you are back in the hobby and bringing your son with you. B2 is good at giving an early lesson in the DMs role without overloading them. There is plenty of detail in there but then there are places that let the DM pick and choose a bit. It is an important balance and while I have no issue with products written with a lot of detail, I do appreciate those that allow me to do some of the work. I can always choose to not use any of the information that is provided, just as I always have. I hope you won't be too quick to judge 5E players though. I play 5E. It's not my favorite, but I do play it and have been running the same campaign for almost 3 years now and a couple prior to that. I think it comes down to people are people and there are bad actors in all rungs and corners of the hobby.

[@destroso]

@@elfbait3774 I agree I don’t hate every player and I don’t think every player is the same but that’s why I said ‘I hate 5e and the people around it’ mainly the people of influence and the corporation whoring out D&D. I do hate 5e though as a concept and for what it represents, it’s career driven corporate culture which unfortunately started with the version I played as a kid 2e but that still had some of the original essence. We died, it felt dangerous, it felt like a world where magic existed not a magical world. Anyway, people can like what they like but the general culture around 5e is soft but you’re right it’s everywhere you can see by what happened to Goodman games recently.

[@elfbait3774]

@@destroso makes more sense. "The people around it" is a very broad designation and I wasn't sure what you meant, exactly.

[@nathanbailey9153]

This article by Bellow is so bad it hurts. I really "like" this sentence by him: "You can almost imagine that someone accidentally published a guide for building a dungeon on accident." Accidentally on accident - huh. No need for proofreaders here ... :). I highly doubt that Mr. Bellow has ever or will ever write anything as memorable as B2. In fact, after reading that post of his, I'm guessing the most memorable thing he has ever written is that blog post, but not for the right reasons. Anyway, thanks for the review. I now know one author I'll never bother purchasing anything from.

[@ceranko]

B2 Is one of the funnest modules. Its the perfect setup to make the heroes local heroes. I had a group play through this and they became the lords in this area after slaughtering all the humanoids in the caves and the cult. The caves became housing for a ranger group responsible for keeping the road clear and fighting monsters in the area. They made the cult temple into a tavern called the hung man after what happened to the cultists. Haha!

[@DarkKnightCuron]

Great vid, thank you!

[@mathewstoker2131]

'That you can't play it any longer.' What a bad take that was. I adapted 'Against the Cult of the Reptile god' into 5th ed, without a reprint. I did this with screenshots of the maps and from youtube reviews of the module itself. You can do anything, with a middle school (I started with AD&D in the 90's; have alot of 3/3.5 and started running 5th-ed, a bit over a year ago) mindset and access to multiple editiions. Just use a bit of creativity, a bit of commitment and some (or a lot) of work. Have started this mod in 5th edition, right now actually. They cleared out the Kobold Cave, just last session.

[@iamthebiggs252]

Hey man! Do more of this format (10-20 min standalone videos), will ya?!

[@ceranko]

Bellows is a lit rpg author That tells me everything.

[@DctrBread]

Perhaps this article is based on online arguments. Lots of dialogue circles around gaming, history, RPGs, and medieval fighting generally use "common knowledge" a.k.a shit redditors say as a source rather than reading the material at hand. Notice that most of the criticisms are ... shall we say, generic.... so generic that it hurts one might say.

[@ceranko]

The guy that wrote that article doesn't know what he's talking about. That module is deadly. It was the first sandbox adventure made. If your a DM and you can't make this adventure excellent your probably a bad DM.

[@pccleric]

Tell me you are a WOTC simp without telling me you are a WOTC simp

[@elfbait3774]

I honestly don't see anything about this that says that. This giy could easily be a fan of any number of other modern RPGs. Even if he likes 5E, that's alright. I just disagree with his take on B2.

[@DerBomster]

Sorry, as someone who dislikes B2 as well (or, dislikes the internet's rather rose-tinted nostalgia turning it into "THE BEST EVER"!) I don't find as little in your video to convince me of its qualities as you don't find convincing arguments in the original article; mostly it boils down to "Nuh-uh, this is great and you are clueless." As a starting player I'd rather play B1, even if that ist just a simple dungeon crawl. It may have had its use at the time it was published, but frankly there isn't *any* encounter or situation in B2 memorable enough that I find worth using for my adventures ("Oooh, would you look at that - another 10 Skeletons with Protection from Turning amulets."). I'd say if you want emergent storytelling you could cobble together something way more interesting and exciting from, say, a good Dyson Logos map and a few random tables.

[@elfbait3774]

@@DerBomster I would argue your claim that it is nostalgia. As people are still playing it and loving it. Emergent storytelling wasn't even a part of the hobby when the module came out but there is enough there that, should you want it to have an emergent story, you could easily adapt the module to do so. I don't pretend to be able to change your mind (this is the internet) but I definitely do not agree with you and for good reasons beyond "nuh-uh".

[@DerBomster]

@@elfbait3774 Yes but you don't give me any of those reasons, that's my problem. "People are still playing it.", doesn't really cut it. And the idea that it "teaches" anybody how to play is pretty much a constantly repeated mantra that the text does not really validate. Do you really think that anybody would regard this as anything but mediocre if it were released without the fanfare of it having flowed from the magical quill of sainted Gygax and it being the one that everybody had to learn the game with (mainly because it was there)?

[@elfbait3774]

@@DerBomster No, because I don't try to hold things of the past up to the standards of 50 years of development. My point wasn't that it is better than what we have we today but that it wasn't as bad as this author makes it out to be. If you ignore the context of my remarks, then sure they seem pretty shallow, but each of my points made against those made by the author. The fact that people still not only play but enjoy this module directly refutes his claims that it is "unplayable". New people come to this module and enjoy it. It's not just us old guys. I'm not a fan of Gygax and do not venerate him, so I make no assertion that the module is special because it came from him. I never said the module was the best thing there is or was, but it certainly is a far cry better than the author of the srticle made it out to be and that is what i was reacting to. If you don't like it, that's fine. I reall don't care, but the module still has a lot to offer those looking for a starter setting that can be easily be expanded on and I felt that it was worth making the video to point this out because new folks read these hi-vis articles and take them to heart and their are other opinions (much like you have yours) that I think folks should have access too.

[@destroso]

It’s a bad module for 5e players and DMs that want a choose your own adventure novel

[@scottishguard]

B2 is a good module. We always had fun running thru it. It 'is' a great teaching mod, as you stated. In fact... I think I'm gonna run it over Thanksgiving weekend. Thanks for the suggest. 😉

[@lauramumma2360]

Yes, so bad it has a 5e adaptation, so bad it has been reskinned and placed in completely different RPGs by people for years. 🙄 Yeah no. Hack job.Thanks Elf Bait for chatting about the Keep

[@elfbait3774]

Always happy to talk about things that jump out at me. Being a pretty easy-going dude, it's not often that somethign really warrants a response from me though.

[@UgliusRodentia]

Skyrim has been released like a million times and and it's mid at best, I'm not sure your point holds water

[@sebastianstark8517]

B2 Keep on the Borderlands is one of the best D&D modules ever made. There's a reason it's held in such high regard in the hobby. Still fun to play to this day, and I plan to run it again soon...

[@yeoldegeek71]

The same author puts Q1 and DL1 among the 10 best..... Enough said.

[@mykediemart]

Well Lolth spaceships are super cool .... and DL is such a sandbox

[@SimonAshworthWood]

I love DL1. I haven’t read Q1.

[@singledad1313]

I really enjoyed running Q1, but any of the DL modules? Hell no! Blechhhh

[@lionelhutz3142]

Great response to Paul Bellow's article. I can be a harsh critic of B2 like a lot of people...but it's definitely fun and no "joke" and certainly not the worst TSR module. It's a mini-campaign setting with plenty to explore, a potential long lasting adversary (an evil and mysterious cult) and virtual Monster Manual who's-who in the Caves of Chaos. I get the impression that Bellow read through and tried to prep the module but never actually played it. 🤔

[@captcorajus]

There is a story to 'Keep on the Borderlands' but its the one that develops organically through the player's choices and play at the table. IMHO, emergent storytelling is best way to play D&D, especially for a NEW DM. There's no 'rails' for the players to be on, therefore the newbie DM doesn't have to worry about what to do if the players go off the rails. This alleviates much of the stress a new DM might feel running the game. Not sure who the writer of this article is, but they clearly don't understand great module design, and they are just being pejorative for clicks. There's no need to 'spoon feed' the 'story' to people. People who play this game tend to be creative, and generally don't need that much hand holding. IMHO, KOTBL gets it right.. just the right amount of handholding to get the newbie DM started, but not so much to stifle their creativity. As for the players, there's plenty of choices, places to go, things to do. It literally opens the door to a fantasy world. Its why its so beloved. The Mad Hermit, the Lizard Men, and of course the Caves of Chaos. Not just memorable... unforgettable.

[@Wibstozbin]

Coincidentally, I am playing B2 with a group of people online this month. The group is having a blast! Thank you for the video. I thought you did a great job breaking this down in the face of extreme biases presented by that article. The author of the article says, "If you take a modern player and sit him down to play the module, the player is going to think it's a joke." I wonder what he means by "modern player". How would that be defined? Would a modern player simply be somebody under the age of 21? If I am still alive and breathing in the "modern" age, does that make me a "modern" player regardless of my age? Players of all ages (that I have met) love this module for its versatility, nevermind the nostalgia that the older players might have for it.

[@lionelhutz3142]

Unfortunately the author Paul Bellow is a perfect example of a modern TTRPG player 🙄

[@elfbait3774]

To be fair, I have no beef with modern gamers. People will and should play games the way they want and enjoy. I don't expect the games or the people playing them to remain the same as they were when I started.

[@iamthebiggs252]

I hear 'modern gamer" in this context and it feels REALLY gate-keepy. Almost as if that author is setting the paramters of who's "in" and who's not. Seems to me that I (and so many others) didn't endure the bullying and the Satanic Panic to apply such a label to the great many new (and younger) players in an effort to keep them "lesser". Is gaming different today than what we had back then, sure. But the barrier to entry of tabletop gaming should not be so loftily set. This author's whole (written) voice just rubs me the wrong way.

[@calvanoni5443]

It has some flaws, but it's a good one.

[@Sam-EastOH]

Got a lot of mileage out of this module. It provides a lot of flexibility.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

9:50 I’ll probably catch heat here but here goes! What was written for 10 year olds back in 1979 is considered complex for 18-25 year olds today. The kids playing back in the late 70s - early 80s were some of the brightest in school (thus Nerds). We were veracious readers of fantasy and Sci Fi; members in math & computer clubs (when computers relied on code ie. DOS), etc. Quite honestly, we were not coddled in school and were generally SMARTER than the average student of today (even at nearly twice our age). The author of the article does not realize that when he calls something written for children “complex” that he is really exposing his own lack of complex thinking. Clearly part of the “Everyone Gets a Trophy” generation.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

After 40 years of running games, mostly D&D, B2 is the adventure I’ve run the most frequently and for the greatest number of sessions (many return trips). This was a great video, I agree with you 100%.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

I’ve played B2 a dozen times at least over the last four decades, but I don’t know if I have ever played the module as written. That’s one of the ones that taught me how to modify and adapt every published adventure to suit my campaign and players. Anyone who thinks it is terrible never got the lesson contained in it. You can play it as a basic hack & slash or use it as the starting point of a longer campaign. I’ve even seen it used in a goblinoid-PC campaign.

[@danielkearney3295]

hi elfbait

[@DarkKnightCuron]

I know I already left a comment, but now that I have my thoughts in order, I figured I would give my two cents on the matter. The only reasons I can think of that would result in B2 being rated so poorly would be thus: 1) Downplaying the Old modules in order to make the new modules look better. 2) B2 does not take adventurers from level 1 all the way to level 20, which fans of Pathfinder are kind of spoiled on (as a fan of 1e Pathfinder, I think I have experience in this matter). Even most D&D modules these days at least go from 1 to 8, if not further. 3) IIRC, Iwant to say around 2002 or 2003, there was this big push to make encounters more balanced around the expected combat prowess of the party. This was to help facilitate the fledgeling skills of newer DMs in terms of presenting reasonable challenges to a party of 3rd Edition characters, while also serving as compatible dungeon scenarios for RPGA (Living Greyhawk at the time). This sort of mentality ended up permeating theoughout the modules of D&D and Pathfinder after that, where encounters needed to be balanced, as opposed to a module simply stating what a problem or obstacle is (in this case, caves full of monsters thathave no qualms trapping the place or ganging up on players or using overwhelming numbers to win) and letting the players determine how best to proceed. Because the module doesnt conform to the usual Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, Step 4 method of modules from 3.5 onward, it can appear to just be drscription of obstacles, challenges, and locations without a definitive plotline to follow. 4) The module does not hold the hand of players and DMs from complete start to finish, as opposed to B2, which merely provides you with the tools and materials of a starter campaign, and then asks you to build the shelf yourself for next week's assignment. Youll notice a lot of newer modules specifically guide you through the entirety of the plot almost like a script for what needs to be done, and B2 certainly does not do that. That being said, a generic module lends itself to being slotted into virtually any setting and any world. The obsession with the absolute spectacular in terms of worlds and plots is coloring the writer's perspective--like we can't have a good story unless the MegaDeathLord from Pluto is invading the Earth with his army of Giant Zombie Android Tarantulas and kidnapping 50 of the purest hearts to open a portal to Super Hell, and is your team of heroes great enough, epic enough, to stop him? Bring forth your color-coordinated armor and special animal-aligned gold coins to summon your ancient robot dinosaur gods to face this new threat to our world! Seriously though, B2 is great, especially if you bolt on several smaller modules adjacent to it and then flavor the whole thing with your world's proclivities.

[@elfbait3774]

Nicely put. There is also the possibility that this author is just so wound up in what he likes he lacks the objectivity to write a fair and honest review. It also may just be click bait to get people to pay attention.

[@DarkKnightCuron]

@elfbait3774 Fair! LOL. I've been known to put far too much effort into something that was just a joke before. Cheers!

[@elfbait3774]

@@DarkKnightCuron then you are in good company. Don't ever change.

[@aazz9676]

Your "Megadeath lord from Pluto..." line shows you have infinitely more writing ability then this modern "author"

[@DarkKnightCuron]

@@aazz9676 LOL, thanks, I appreciate it

[@elana1463]

Fun thing, if you go onto the list of best D&D modules on the same site, you find keep on the borderlands at rank 2. And yes it is written by the same author. Seemingly he likes what it represents and how you can play it at your own table, just not the way it was originally written.

[@dumpstergoblin5318]

The article writer seems like he's describing Into the Unknown, not Keep on the Borderlands. Which makes me believe they've read neither. Also, look up the author. He's all about AI dungeon generation and AI based gaming, as those aren't drawing on all the things he bashes in that article.

[@SneakyNinjaDog]

It is clear from the list that he just dislikes old modules and the way they were made back then. It also speaks to playstyle as you hinted at. Keep on the Borderlands is very sandboxy and that usually means that there is no clearthru plotline. A complete opposite would be some of the Dragonlance modules that has lots of story, so much in fact that one might argue they are better of as novels (just read the novels if you like that story) and has almost no wriggleroom for players to act. The key persons cannot even die in those modules. And thus Dragonlance would sadly rank as some of my least favorite ones despite all the hype and such.

[@garhent]

Keep on the Borderlands gives your players a sandbox, a home base, multiple wilderness encounters, two areas to explore a swamp and the forest and overall is one of the better starter campaigns. It ends with the evil priest that can be used to continue an adventure hook to other modules. I'm running players through it now and I've got a few asking how I came up with this, its so much fun. Its a an old 1E module updated for 5E, plus I take the Old Man Katan adventure from Dungeon magazine for the swamp. The author doesn't really list much at all for critiques, its a bad critique. You can take it and create something truly fun. Just play it with milestone, put in some good magic gear to equip up the party. Its a very easy link to the Village of Homlette.

[@bearthegenxgm]

There it is.

[@VengerSatanis]

If Wisconsin isn't too far away, consider attending VENGER CON III: Revenge of the OSR this July in Madison, WI.

[@MalakyoftheOSR]

It's telling that the author considers N2 to be better than B2.

[@elfbait3774]

I am not sure that is the case. Even his rating system is off as the kanguage of the article indicates that #1 is tge least offendibg of the six.

[@danielkearney3295]

great mod,, running my family through it now

[@gamemasters]

I really should try to run this module straight though.. I've never actually done that with any module, instead I take bits and pieces and plug that into my homebrew but that was never anything against the specific module i was pulling from, just more to flesh out my own world (although I did mostly keep the bloodstone series in tact in my "world" ). yeah, I need to crack this one open again and perhaps do a... three-shot? What would be your best guess at how long it would take to play through Keep on the Borderlands (as a stand alone with fresh characters)? (and listen... any article that puts tomb of horrors anywhere close to ranking as a "worst" module... that automatically ranks that article as a "worst"... just sayin). You are 100% spot on that it's an obtuse view; it is not a difficult task to run older modules and convert them if wanted. The author cites "it breaks the cardinal rule of good module design by being unmemorable." yet.. the author remembers it well enough to include details about it... kinda funny.

[@elfbait3774]

I have to admit that it has been ages since I've had the opportunity to run this and even then it got mixed with other adventures in the spirit of the sandbox that it is. For example, we ran this and Village of Homlet as adjascent settlements.

[@VioletDeliriums]

I got the Basic set for christmas in 1981 (not previously knowing anything about D&D or even that it was a thing), and I read it cover to cover and then went and bought the expert set a week later with christmas money...although i wound up starting to play AD&D a month later in an established group, i did run keep and isle of dread as my first attempts at DMing...of course I sucked, but i learned everything I needed to know about how to make my own adventures from them.... based town, hex crawl, dungeon crawl, rumor tables...sure those adventures are not the best (as-is, with no DM edits), but i learned 90% of what i needed to know to be a DM from reading and DMing them!!! anyone who doesn't see that is more likely to prefer the WoTC-designed campaign with a start point, three or four possible (known) endings, and the DM's job is to just get the PCs on a railroad to one of those endings (just like video game design)...the guy who made that comment probably has no idea of the context surrounding it...Which is sad. By what subjectively generated standard did he use to make that "objective" opinion? His opinion is really rooted in non-empathetic ignorance, and a sort of self-righteousness...I would give up on trying to convince him of anything because he already knows everything. let's just say, he is lucky that B2 brought so many people in the hobby, or stranger things woudl not have popularized it for him to join the 5e bandwagon later.

[@drmann15]

I named my firstborn child after B2

[@nostromo9743]

-Dad, why is my sister named Rose? -Because your mom loves roses. -Thanks dad! -No problem Keep on the Borderlands.

[@Squirrel-Hermit]

🐿

[@BX-advocate]

I always have seen B2 as a solid module and a great foundation. It is solid because you can pretty much always run it with a new group and it will always"work", I keep an extra copy in my DM briefcase (I know fancy) just in case. It is a good foundation because like most old modules you are are supposed to add to it and modify it to your needs, I have made many revisions that make my version unique and to my liking. A few of my favorite "mods" is to add B1 to the cave of the unknown but that is a fairly standard mod you can also add Mike's Dungeon from DrivethruRPG which is really good. I also have a custom version of the Minotaur cave, mine works completely differently from the original and is brutal. I also use Monster & Treasure Assortment to add more of both and make it more interesting, essentially it adds d100 tables per dungeon level of both monsters and magic items and really spices up the game. I think anyone who says its bad is either lazy or lacks imagination. However I don't even think its bad if you run it by the book.

[@biffstrong1079]

Love B2. So much playability. I've built the Cavern of the Unknown to take characters from 4-6 after cleaning out the caves. The chaotic caverns ,for me, are lead by a lose group of evil in that Cave. The Caves ,for me, spring up as a response to a Keep that was sunk too deep into chaotic territory. They are the pearl created from the irritating grain of sand of the Keep. Outdoor hex crawl and fun encounters. The logic isn't great but you work on it. And Come on "Bree Yark" Evil Beserker Hero. Rescued Merchant and Family. Bribable Ogre. Our First Crying Medusa. A Wight. A Minotaur. Giant Spiders. Mad Hermit. Gygax hit a lot fantasy ideas that I like. If he had thrown in some dragon teeth growing into giant warriors, a witch who turned adventurers into the animal they most resembled and perhaps a party hiding in a large wooden badger to invade a castle, it would have been perfect Took my Nephews and Niece through it a little while ago and know it so well I could make it as complex or simple as they wanted it. They weren't keen on role play, let's jump to the dungeon. Let's Hack and Slash. You rescued the Merchant but don't want to interact with him. That's fine. We played it , it was easy. I'm not sure why he thinks it's unplayable. Yeah we figured it out, now I was 15, but it was easy. Again Played it last year and keen to play my expanded version again. Save the Goblin children, slaughter them, create an orphanage. My wife talked to the Orcs. They thought it was some sort of trap, but it slowed them down. Came away loving Bugbears and Gnolls. Oh and yes the unexpected but inevitable betrayal.

[@BX-advocate]

You know what weird about him saying it cant be played anymore? Keep on the Borderlands was the playtest module that 5E was written on so not only is he wrong but the modern game used B2 as its foundation to test its mechanics.

[@yourseatatthetable]

By today's standards, most early modules are "bad"

[@mykediemart]

It's the literal template. a how to... or a dummies guide... (or what ever is the modern version) or denouncing it for doing what it sets out to do "shits on it" as you said.

[@praxistallyogarro]

Scroll down to the bottom "Continue reading? You might also enjoy..." - then select- "Our 10 Best D&D Modules of All Time" Also by Paul Bellow. *Spoiler* his #2 may look a little familiar!

[@elfbait3774]

Yup, this has been pointed out to me a couple times - B2 is one of hteb est and worst?

[@almitrahopkins1873]

Unmemorable? I can remember playing it in a group that consisted of two goblins, a hobgoblin, an orc and a half-ogre as PCs. That was long enough ago that the rules for playing goblinoids and humanoids were recent additions to the game. That was meant to be a one-shot, but it grew into a campaign that lasted for years. I think the author needs a dictionary.

[@Nobleshield]

My problem with old modules like B2 is that they seem too random and haphazard. Like, the wandering monster tables are ridiculous with no rhyme or reason at all, just a collection of "level appropriate" monsters like it was a videogame (probably where early videogames got the idea too). A lot of the actual encounters all seem like they are "if you fight here, you're going to get wiped" with ridiculous numbers of monsters (18 giant rats spring to mind), which I mean I am all for some encounters being the sort you need to be creative or parley, but when most encounters are "You enter a room with 12 goblins" with a typical 4-6 PC 1st level party, it's a little stupid because what, you're not expected to fight ANYTHING? Not to mention the absolute "lol gotcha" bullshit which is the Medusa in Room 64, where you literally cannot tell she's a medusa until you step inside to look at her.

[@elfbait3774]

I can see your point, but i think that ultimately comes down to philosphy of the game and gamers. D&D was as much a game as it was an experience, maybe even more so. Older modules tended to challenge the players as well as the characters. to this end, you were not expected to fight everything. The rules even support non-combat resolutions through the use of encounter reactions and morale rule. Even the experience system focuses on treasure recovered more than monsters killed. Again, not saying you are wrong, but it really comes down to expectations both for what we expect RPGs to be today and what they were intended to be in their early days.

[@kingyellow3091]

The article reads like someone lost their character there, please point on the chart where did B2 touch you.

[@docsavage8640]

B2 requires players who aren't waiting to be spoonfed and are willing to risk death of their characters. So not for most 5e players.

[@elfbait3774]

I will say this about B2. It is definitely a product of its time. For better and for worse. It certainly does not have the polish and even completeness of products that came later (well before 5E) but to those who are looking for something that is defined just enough to provide a solid foundation for play, expansion, and the freedom to make the game your own, it is excellent. If you are looking for something that is complete right out of the box, it may not be your thing. I think the most outrageous claim, made in the original article, is that the module is unplayable. Of all the claims that is, perhaps, the one that wrinkled my nose the most, because it is so abasolutely, objectively wrong. People do still play and love this module and it's not just the olds heads that do.

[@Ricksteady8]

I'm glad whoever edited the wiki page isn't my DM! 😂

[@Lemurion287]

Yet somehow, just three days later, he was able to publish a list of the ten BEST modules of all time and B2 was on that list, too.

[@elfbait3774]

This is true.

[@brianinthepark5429]

I mean he could be right it's unplayable today. But over the decades we've played it a time of two and had fun. No way it this the worst of the tsr adventure modules! ~Brian

[@elfbait3774]

I would say the fact that people continue to enjoy it to this day says it is still playable. Like a lot of modules you can do a lot with it to make it what you want as well.

[@brianinthepark5429]

@@elfbait3774 Played this online a couple years ago. With Not Homlet as the village below the keep. I stole the keep and not homlet and made a twin keep and sister village called not hokar. Down in the hool marshes of greyhawk. Ran a half dozen good looking games in the marshes online this year. There is alot of things you can do with Homlet and the keep. Thanks for posting this. and your comment. Subbed~Brian

[@elfbait3774]

@@brianinthepark5429 that is awesome. When we ran it back in the day, and if I were to run it again, we had Homlet be the last town before the frontier where the keep was perched.

[@joanmoriarity8738]

B2 is even more fascinating today than it was back in the eighties. In the Caves of Chaos, each room description tells not only what the place looks like, not only what loot is waiting to be found, but it crucially also tells how many noncombatant women and children are in each room. These caves are on the edge of a war-torn region. The lower levels in particular are filthy, depressing, and occupied by families with children who certainly did not grow up living there. To any modern audience, it is absolutely clear from the text that this can only be a refugee camp, and the players have been sent by the "good guys" to slaughter them all. Whenever I run this module I always replace the kobolds in the first cave with a group of mixed humanoids whose minds have been totally destroyed by magical curses. The humanoids scream and sprint to attack everyone on sight. They clearly have no conscience and cannot be saved, so the PCs can feel fine about killing them and looting those rooms. I love doing this because it delays the obvious "are we the baddies" moment until well after most players have already become complicit in this grotesque and obvious war crime. When that moment comes, they face a choice: play it the way most players do, as an "evil" campaign where they kill everyone including the children so they can get loot and level up, or try to figure out who is ultimately behind this arrangement and stop them. Makes a great story every time.

[@bkmur4713]

Opinion, but whatever.

[@HardyLeBel-c9r]

Nah, the blog post is 100% correct - Keep on the Borderlands is an incredibly stupid module. Huge hosts of monsters live in close proximity to each other without killing each other off? Stupid. Those same groups of monsters would ignore the sounds of battle when players are killing off others groups next door? Stupid. Intelligent monsters don’t post guards at the entrance of their own caves? Stupid. Into the Unknown was a better introductory product, and a better module in every way.

[@dereklong801]

Say you haven't read/played the module without saying you haven't read/played the module.

[@HardyLeBel-c9r]

@@dereklong801 Wrong on both counts. Read it. Played it. Ran it. It sucks.

[@dereklong801]

@@HardyLeBel-c9r Then you should know from the text of the module that a. the monsters have guards at their caves (kobolds even have a rear guard in the forest), b. the monsters are all at odds with each other, with orcs aligned with gnolls, goblins and hobs together, and bugbears picking off everyone, c. if your DM didn't have the monsters gang up on the PCs, your DM sucked, not the module.

[@HardyLeBel-c9r]

@@dereklong801 Spend some time learning In Search of the Unknown - you’ll learn what a good introductory module looks like ;-)