Bach's Neverending Canon

UPDATE: New 30-minute version now available, with newly engraved score: • Bach's Neverending Can...
Canon a 2 per Tonos, from Bach's "Musical Offering." The top voice plays a version of the tune given to Bach by Frederick the Great. The other two voices are in 2-part canon, with the bottom voice leading and the middle voice following a measure later and a fifth above. The canon is designed so that it modulates up a whole step each time through; thus, after six times through, the music returns to C Minor where it began, but an octave higher.
This recording, inspired by a suggestion in Douglas Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach," uses the Shepard Tone technique, meaning that a lower octave is constantly being faded in for each voice while the upper octaves slowly fade. Thus, by the time C Minor is reached again, the lower octave has taken over; so we're back exactly where we started.
The bottom part (leader) is recorded on the left channel, and the middle part (follower) is recorded on the right channel to make it easier to follow. [UPDATE: The stereo effect didn't transfer to KZbin. However, the stereo separation does work on the downloadable versions that you can access at the link below.]
Read more at:
mmmusing.blogspot.com/2008/03/...

[@MasterJoshu137]

Who else here found out about this in the book "Godel, Escher, Bach"?

[@Ivan_1791]

Is it a good book?

[@pablomingorance9378]

@@Ivan_1791 holy Yeah its great

[@dhi9683]

oh... me!

[@stephaniehall6228]

I just did! Thought I’d give GEB another try(tried it when I was younger and didn’t make it through the introduction) after finishing the mind’s I(a great, fun, easier but still really stimulating read).

[@Sandman-15]

Lol I found it in a fanfic

[@xcheesyxbaconx]

"What key is it in?" "Yes."

[@yrkke_produkcija]

Best comment ever :D hahah

[@prependedprepended6606]

You're half correct, it will go through 50% of the keys.

[@richardjames7360]

Very funny.

[@TheEnderLeader1]

@@prependedprepended6606 all of them actually, because the middle line is the bassline repeated a fifth higher.

[@simongross3122]

It's only a minor consideration

[@sumit3195]

Godel Escher Bach By Mr. Douglas R. Hofstadter sent me here

[@teddyzorro]

That's funny: that's what brought me here as well.

[@simdiejinkeonye]

Wow same.

[@kimberlybrathwaite]

Omg me too! 🤣🤣🤣

[@firelissena367]

Saame

[@abdielguerrero1277]

Me too 💙

[@adampeters550]

some say it's forwards I say it's bachwards.

[@mjrhmekssh]

Adam Peters this took me about a minute to get simply because that's completely not how you pronounce bach

[@adampeters550]

I completely forgot about this comment XD I'm aware

[@octaviolee8282]

@@adampeters550 You take it Bach?

[@axelparidon]

this is truly the work of a genius. stereo effect works fine with my headphones, by the way.

[@bikerbob2005]

the coolest book you never read "Godel, Escher, Bach " that my friend will take you down the rabbit hole, have a nice trip :)

[@Niviriagamingandmusic]

Awe I love that book! :)

[@carocard7074]

I just came from there, lovely reading

[@paulbyrnesrmt2929]

I love its progression. It keeeeps going and YET it never tires. Like so so so so many pop idols of recent time......modulate a key higher for dramatic punch. Bach was moving there to move somewhere else, also nowhere else to go. He is the ULTIMATE at stylistically warping the rules . THE Brain music

[@HumorisLogical]

Man, I could listen to this forever.

[@DrLeavingsoon]

"This is the song that never ends..."

[@BreviariumRomanum]

it ascends endlessly to heaven, ... as does all Bach's music

[@samthemusicguy]

friggin Bach.... what a genius...

[@aleksey6151]

I got freaked out when I skipped back to the start after hearing an octave and heard the same tone! That's absolutely crazy

[@hellomate639]

"Let me play one more piece before bed, mom!" "Okay" *trollface*

[@neutral_puma845]

Lmao!!

[@ralphhage8953]

Stealing it! :-D

[@paxwallacejazz]

Boy talk about letting the well tempered cat out of the bag!

[@galletitamortal]

My only one question is: Bach was a human?

[@theodoredelacroix8408]

no

[@marcellofadda9474]

I don't believe so...

[@pianoforte17xx48]

Omg my mind is going to explode, whenever I focus on a melody I miss the other. What kind of maze is this?

[@ryangiraldi5722]

Weldon Percy That, my friend, is the art of COUNTERPOINT. Now go practice.

[@Gerry319videos]

I hadn't read the full description, and nearly fell off my chair when it was in the same octave after rising through six steps. This is a truly fascinating effect. I tried something like this on a computer years ago after reading GEB, but it wasn't nearly as effective as this. Thanks for posting.

[@Dachion]

exquisite! each variation more ravishing dan d last!

[@AntonWingfield]

I hear the bass on the left and the alto on the right. Your upload worked fine, good work and thank you!

[@xxxxcensoredxxx]

Thanks for these posts, must have taken ye a while. I'm continually something new about this work.

[@OuwenH101]

Imagine putting this a on loop infinitely

[@simonkempes585]

that would be strange

[@ProjectDreamCatcher]

This is fantastic. I got here because of the Shepard Tone effect - excellent. I did find one very small blooper (hardly noticable). 1st bar of the 2nd page (dm) - bass- last note - the audio plays an A instead of the writen B natural. works harmonicly so no big deal. Love this.

[@mariazafra3803]

Refreshing. I love it!

[@garydlloyd7718]

Best version of this to listen to...

[@propilotcfi]

This almost sounds like something that you can use to warm up with for piano...and keeps your minor scales fresh....its just genius

[@polymath7]

Sounds fascinating; I shall certainly seek it out.

[@mantradance8878]

Thumbs up. Hope to see more of your work. Would be nice if you might be able to include the BWV number in the future if possible

[@karvayotm]

That book is a jewel.

[@MMmusing]

I didn't use C clef because a large percentage of people who read music don't ready C clef easily. (Granted, ledger lines can also be confusing.) I'm not sure why I didn't sometimes switch to bass clef in that voice or treble in the lower staff, except I guess I liked the visual of seeing the music move up gradually - clef changes are ugly!

[@joehuang7302]

+Michael Monroe Can you make a perfect loop version of this?

[@kevinnguyen552]

Thank you I don’t play viola or really read alto clef so it’s easier

[@kelsiejackson]

Really creative...great job!

[@musicamaxima]

@MaggieFloats 4th and 7th measures : Using the pass in cminor, The 2nd tone (& of 1) 4th mm in the bass creates and Italian6 of Gm V. From here, Bach eliminates the Ab, remaining ostensibly in Gm until the 7th measure wherein he inverts the leading-tone tritone C-F# to C#-F (leading tone and 3rd) creating all the necessary tones for d minor.

[@recorderson]

awesome ! Thanks for this wonderful video ;)

[@rre9514]

i could listen to this forever :--dXdxd

[@DanieleTrucco]

Per gli interessati: Daniele Trucco, L’infinito circolare. Borges, Bach, Escher: tre artefici di narrazioni perpetue, in «Punto Zero», n. 11, supplemento al n. 116 di «Nexus New Times», 2015, pp. 68-75.

[@paolovitale84]

Composing something like that is like playing hundreds of chess games at the same time and winning them all

[@paolovitale84]

@thatchoirguy get a job, Yankee

[@michaellessel5532]

@thatchoirguy get a job, yankee

[@degenerate6109]

The exact quote is something more akin to 60, and blindfolded. -Douglas R. Hofstadter.

[@polymath7]

Thanks for the correction. I was quoting from memory and haven't reread GEB in a couple years.

[@sadyoonie]

and neverending for my feelings, too ♥

[@nineko]

Someone should put this into Super Mario 64.

[@andresdaniel6711]

Ha ha ha, true!

[@MMmusing]

@sarahbroadbent1 All three parts are there, but it's set up with the bottom part on the left channel and the middle part on the right channel. You must not be getting the right channel. (I thought when I'd first uploaded it that the stereo separation hadn't come through, but I just checked and it is working.)

[@JarleHelle]

I did, it is an exhilarating, facinating book!

[@rafjuven]

Cuando comencé a estudiar a Bach en el piano, creía que su música era bastante simple y de fácil ejecución, ahora mientras más estudio la música seriamente, más miedo me causa ver todo lo que podía escribir Bach. Es un compositor de mis respetos.

[@MuseDuCafe]

So much of Bach like this is clever and DULL.

[@ReubenLL28]

+MuseDuCafe dull? I can tell you that if you don't see the vast emotional complexity in Bach's work, you haven't understood the first thing about it.

[@perpetualmotion319]

You don´t have to put anything into a Mahler Adagietto for it to have a huge emotional impact on you, that is true art. This (as music history confirms) has a much more mathematical approach to it, which is indeed genius in it´s own way.

[@xcaluhbration]

That'll show him! Respond with boring comments! 🤣

[@Pretendkid]

@MMusing Was this piece originally meant to be played on a piano, harpsichord or organ? (in other words, I can play the piano, so can I learn this piece? :D)

[@cindybubbles]

This would make for some great background music!

[@mr.p.l.627]

Bach's Neverending canon: is never ending The video: 5 minutes 33 seconds long Me: You're shorter than I expected.

[@MMmusing]

Check out the newer version: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpetaKxqfsRspK8 It does still end, but not quite so soon, so it's a little less non-never-ending.

[@mr.p.l.627]

@@MMmusing wow, that's awesome! Thanks! I really appreciate the content! Both videos are great!

[@sarahbroadbent1]

@MMmusing You are right!!! I fixed my settings. No wonder stuff has been sounding thin! LOL

[@jrssjdca]

The description indicates that on the 6th iteration, it goes back to the original Cm note, only an octave higher. The octave as I suggested is implied and not demonstrated. It WOULD rise endlessly, but as I previously mentioned to the original poster, it's got to end somewhere.

[@Visual_Music]

(I am just curious) Is Shepard Tone used here? Otherwise, though it goes back to 'C' again and again, the octaves will get higher and higher. However, this video sounds like it can really 'return to the starting point', not just the note but also the frequency.

[@MMmusing]

Yep. See the more info part of the video description. Based on an idea of Douglas Hofstadter...

[@AaronGlenn88]

@Adamneely would this count in anyway as a comma pump type thang? As it changes keys or is this just modulation

[@DavidMcCoul]

"This is the song that never ends. Yes, it goes on and on my friends."

[@zyx1236]

I think the one in the "Musical Offering" is even improvised and written down later, and there's another fugure of 8 voices in the "Musical Offering".

[@TheRobTV]

you hardly notice the piece change but suddenly it's higher!

[@bozzi90]

trollbach... damn.. a true genius

[@Mattimias]

Wow. Interesting. I kept on hearing the same thing.

[@davidsherman1206]

Michael Monroe has improved as a musician since his days with Hanoi Rocks …

[@Musicrafter12]

For me, the stereo works fine.

[@Miguel8aRV199]

Muy buena la información

[@H1J9D7V9]

[qout] I listened to it looping continuously on the 30-minute [/qoute] Wow, how did you do that. I want to drain myself with it. I have already downloaded the file..I shouldn't be difficult (I remember I have cooledit pro somewhere).. anyway, it's awesome!

[@thesealab8947]

Should we start a book club with people who found this by reading Godel Escher Bach? lmao

[@MMmusing]

Sadly, I'm in the special (possibly large) club of people who've started reading GEB a dozen times but never made it all the way through...perhaps because I get distracted making things like this.

[@TromboneMachine]

Mind : blown

[@jfeucht82]

I was confused, because when I had finished listening to the piece, I was expecting to start the piece from the beginning and it would be two octaves lower. I feel like I just listened to the musical version of the never-ending staircase.

[@johannsebastienbach]

For fans of this music, I recommand you guys check out this song featured in japanese anime gundam seed called "Justice and freedom". The main theme is actually switching keys at the end of first round but it's hardly detecteble. When i heard that piece i related to this cannon. I am certain that toshihiko sahashi was inspired by it.

[@bercaferca4554]

Not often do I see double accidentals in Bach’s music! Or baroque!

[@MaggieFloats]

I tried, but I cannot find where the modulation is... :(

[@berni1602]

Yes, this world is so small!

[@n0denz]

Has anyone ever coded a program to play this indefinitely?

[@davidroberts3262]

It's easy to do with a midi sequencer.

[@gr0mithtimon]

@DrumCorpsageout2010 Source please. Bach distributes the voices over the staffs in much of his polyphonic writing, not just works for organ. This has 3 voices and hence, 3 staffs. As far i know, Bach did not indicate instrumentation.

[@wofi784]

The crab canon is like the hardest thing to compose

[@Ivan_1791]

Well, this one is also hard to compose.

[@sarahbroadbent1]

The middle line is silent....would like to hear all three parts. :(

[@thiagomoreira5287]

Can someone make 10 HOURS of this?

[@MMmusing]

Here's 30 minutes. It's a start: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpetaKxqfsRspK8

[@jdandrewszt]

I'm working my way through it. It's quite thick, and relatively heavy reading. Beautiful stuff, though. Rather brilliant. Next I'll read Hofstadter's "sequel"...

[@harryold5271]

Actually, when it goes back to C minor, it isn't an octave higher if you compare it with the first C minor section.

[@jbslv]

Where is the 10h video?

[@PawelVVysocki]

How come it's only 5 minutes long?

[@Reitenshii]

In reality, this could go on forever. But since we only have finite memory, and it becomes useless like telling "HEY! I WILL GO ON FOREVER" when you already know it's going on for forever, we'd rather not waste our space when we already get the point.

[@i_cam]

Loremine Ipsea yea but sometimes you just want mindless listening

[@charmenietraumtor5671]

because everyone around him got sicka 17th century "99 bottles of rum on the wall"

[@familyman5013]

It’s 10^100/60/24/365.25/100 centuries long OMG 🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳💩🇨🇳🇨🇳💩💩💩💩💩💩💩

[@thiagomoreira5287]

It is vicious

[@MuseIsAwesome]

haha, that's funny. I found this video because I was reading GEB :). He actually compared the games of chess to improvising 6 fugues, not 8. Regardless, Bach is by far, in my opinion, the greatest composer of all time... so it's not like it matters ;)

[@BrynSowash]

@sergiogeorge1 The point is that it repeats ad infinitum...Bach was a mathematical genius. The modulations are hidden so well. Check out the book Godel, Escher, Bach. It goes into a lot more detail about this.

[@gitan78a]

GUAU ....

[@catycat28meow]

Good practice to play in different keys for me & Clara Clarinet!

[@GustavoSotomayorFonzalida]

Why not use the C clef for the second staff?

[@antoniusnies-komponistpian2172]

Gustavo Sotomayor Fonzalida Because nobody can read it

[@zyx1236]

I know it's in this book - I just started reading it :D

[@mattroom]

Reminds me of Cloud Atlas

[@sudevsen]

I'll be Bach

[@kimvibk9242]

You wish...;-)

[@NitramZiarreh]

Interesting idea. But for the shepard tone technique to work properly you'd need a different, less percussive kind of timbre... with that MIDI guitar tone we actually hear the octaves as separate voices, not as overtones.

[@bibliofowl]

This is the song that never ends, yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends, yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends

[@soittotaiteilija]

Ah, it's just like a more melodic Shephard Tone! Does Bach's genius know no END?! I suppose not.

[@peterphilip]

If you are interested in this phenomenon read Douglas Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach"

[@mkmonroes]

@NitramZiarreh Oh, I only just saw this note. Of course you're right that organ works better. I just found that I liked the sound of synth guitars better than what I was getting with organ, but it's not that hard to hear the lower octave "sneaking" in. There's a much more convincing organ recording here: ssp11si.stanford.edu/music/Bachs_Strange_Loop.mp3

[@operadood]

Any music theorists care to point out where/how the 1-step-up modulation occurs?

[@johnathanwhite4878]

operadood the top line, first bar of each key has a chromatic leading into the next key and with the support of the underlying melodies it's supports these modulations

[@QueenAnime99]

@99timewaster If I recall correctly, I was responding to someone who took issue with another person typing in Spanish instead of English on KZbin. That's great that it's obvious to you. Good day.

[@christolbert3430]

Is it possible to play this on a single string instrument, maybe In a version of Shepards scale, because I really want to mix this effect in hungarian minor.

[@Icingde4th]

I rather enjoyed that book but I have to agree with jdan, it is a rather heavy read indeed. It leaves you enlightened though.

[@marcellohro]

can anyone that's more into music explain me how can it be so hard to compose a neverending canon like this? i'm really curious about why it's so special, why is this canon a strange-loop and not simply a loop? i am a complete ignorant when the subject is music.

[@flyingpenandpaper6119]

The idea is that you return to the very same initial note-which would be a massive contradiction. Imagine walking up six sets of stairs to end up on the same floor you started on, without having gone down once. And that is the effect Bach almost creates here.

[@cinnamonbrandylite]

The thing is that if your brain is wired that way, so that you can dance with it, and it's food and drink to you... what can seem impossible to someone that would have to work with it might be not just possible, but joyous and inevitable. h.

[@QueenAnime99]

@XEightBallX I think I was responding to an English-speaking/writing person who took issue with another person because he/she was writing in Spanish. LOL. I'm glad that you understood and appreciated what I said. Good day.

[@a1s2d3f4g5q1w2e3]

@ProjectDreamCatcher is right

[@polymath7]

Oops, wrong screen name. That was supposed to come from polymath

[@alexnomad5382]

Bach wouldnt have spent more than half an hour writing this but it's fun.

[@T3hub3r1337]

@QueenAnime99 There should be a youtube.com for english. a youtube.ca for french canadians. etc. etc. etc. keep english domains english and english can stay out of non english domains. simple. yes?

[@zyx1236]

maybe ;-) we don't know, and I guess we won't ever know.