Back to Bulleid (with 35011 GSN) - Railway Mania PODCAST #17

At the height of the Second World War the Southern Railway introduced its first pacific tender locos, the Merchant Navy Class.
Bulleid was always seeking to push the envelope with locomotive development, and the 3-cylinder Merchant Navy was packed full of features and innovations to enable more power, different maintenance regimes, and to lessen the effect the locos had on the permanent way.
The locomotives were extremely powerful and capable of incredible performances, but drew criticism for several issues, notably fires which broke out within the air-smoothed casing around the boiler, a tendency for high coal and water consumption, and the restricted visibility from the casing.
Between 1956 and 1960, British Railways extensively rebuilt all 30 members of the class, removing the distinctive casing, and replacing the Bulleid chain-driven valve gear with three sets of independent Walschaerts.
11 rebuilt Merchant Navies still exist today. 35011 ‘General Steam Navigation’ is one of the preserved members, but the owning group has a rather different plan to the other members of the class. ‘Number 11’ is going to have the rebuilding reversed, and be returned to its as-built condition.
Thanks to Andy, Graham and Steve for coming on the podcast!
Find out more:
35011gsn.co.uk/
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[@thatd59ladlarry]

Well, This was a great surprise!

[@wjs_1106]

awesome video as always, looking forwad to seeing GSN once it has been returned to orignal condition.

[@callumthornelow2936]

Awesome podcast, wish the G.S.N.L.R.S great success for the future

[@kingorry7223]

Another excellent podcast. Im very much interested in the project, as rebuild......well unrebuilding a Merchant Navy to original, or close to original, is certainly an intersting project, and being a fan on Bulleid pacifics😜

[@cullenlawrence7794]

instaBlaster

[@tracya4087]

i ll try mate , in t it funny where bits of trains end up , got the the flame cut name from 97 413 amethyst in t spare room , all the best from wigan , still in lancashire

[@BrookesCastle]

A fantastic video and veryenjoyable listen, thank you.

[@TERRYBARTLETTRAILMAN28]

Fantastic work they are doing to 35011 as I work with Clan Line we hope to get her back to work soon don't know when but hopefully as restrictions ease off

[@yourlocalmodelrailway]

Funny watching this after a load of stuff has happened with gsn

[@timlilijinsheng4070]

*REJECT WALSCHAERTS, RETURN TO BULLEID*

[@984francis]

But it is still Walschaerts, just miniaturised and driven from a crankshaft instead of flycranks.

[@patrickwebb7311]

Glad to see the podcast return, and on an amazing topic. Great job Corwin, and best of luck to the team involved in 11's rebuild.

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Much appreciated!

[@liamgough6520]

Maybe you could do other groups unrebuilding locomotives or maybe new builds

[@eliotreader8220]

@@RailwayManiaNet i think that all the Bullied 4-6-2 engines are very good looking machines either in their original streamlined or rebuilt shape where they meant to be related to the LNER 4-6-2 engines because their designer had worked for that railway previously

[@The_RWS_Modeller]

Glad to see your back! Was looking forward to another one of these podcasts.

[@paulroberts9704]

I can't wait to see this one in steam. Merchant navy, West Country and Battle of Britain class, Original and Rebuilt Beautiful locomotives. But this Original Merchant Navy stunning

[@justahillbilly7777]

Being an American railfan, I'm very used to the idea of steam locomotives, or at least ones that didn't already run on them, being converted to run on roller bearings or at least having their axle bearing set ups modified to enable them to provide a similar performance to rollers like how the Southern Pacific 4449's drive axle bearings have, but from what I can gather, that sorta thing is practically unheard of in the U.K. rail preservation scene. My question here with 21C11 is whether or not such a thing would be feasible for the engine, if it doesn't already have rollers or a set up capable of delivering a similar performance. If it doesn't have rollers, surely a conversion to rollers would help with long term maintenance costs and possibly even overall availability. I know for sure that it would allow for even greater compatibility with the network. Now I know there'll inevitably be those who would balk worse then a stubborn mule at the idea of such an un-prototypical modification being applied to the engine, but due to my exposure to both the American and British rail preservation movements, I've come to the conclusion that you want functionality and THEN originality with a steam locomotive operating in the 21st century on a 21st century rail network. It's certainly worked well for the engines that've had it done here in the States, and I've often pondered on how well it could work in the U.K. as well. Like I said, a roller bearing conversion would certainly allow an even greater degree of compatibility with the network, and I'd be willing to bet some spare change on railway officials being all for an even greater degree of compatibility between the steamers of old with the network of the present and future.

[@RailwayManiaNet]

It's certainly been pursued by some of the new-build locos such as Tornado. I guess part of it comes down to cost and trying to weigh up if it's worth it if the older system is troublesome enough to warrant it?

[@paulroberts9704]

A brilliantly informative podcast thank you

[@discomikeyboy2012]

Watching this again 7 months later because this is great stuff. And I'm struck by just how elegant the original design of the MN class was. I wish we could have one of those also.

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Crikey has it been 7 months already?!

[@johnarnehansen9574]

They should make it a damn replica!...

[@colingraham1065]

Has anyone ever put models of the various 'air smoothed' locomotives in a modern wind tunnel to see if they actually made a jot of difference or was it just to make them look modern?

[@philnewstead5388]

hoskinb1 My father knew someone who worked for the Southern Railway and you are quite right the design was primarily to allow the locos to use the carriage washing plants but they also thought that after the war there would be a return to the prewar streamlined expresses on the LNER and LMS so the design also had one eye on post war marketing but as you rightly say it was called air smoothed rather than streamlining and it is unlikely that there was much aerodynamic benefit given the large flat surface area at the front of the loco.

[@alanclifford1337]

Great and fascinating project!

[@discomikeyboy2012]

Regarding the livery, I would not want Brunswick. I hate to see Big 4 locos in a BR livery! Malachite gets my vote because Brunswick is so ubiquitous.

[@philnewstead5388]

steam driver Livery is such an emotive subject. I also think it is a subjective thing, my father grew up by the Southern Railway and is adamant that the engines should be Malachite or Olive green or black whereas I prefer BR Brunswick green with late crest probably because that's how I remember them. At the end of the day it is ultimately down to the owning group what colour they paint it as it is their money and hard work that have brought it back to life. For us armchair commentators we must be thankful that there are people with the time, health, finances and inclination to restore these machines for our enjoyment. My enjoyment is seeing,riding on and photographing these machines I have no interest in crawling around in the cold and wet up to my neck in dirt and grease so if these guys wanted to paint it rail blue with yellow panels it would not be for me to criticise I just don't have to point my camera at it if I don't like it. There is a lot to be thankful for regarding steam preservation in the U.K. in normal times you can go to a heritage railway any day of the week in summer and there are usually half a dozen or so steam specials on the main line every week, I now live in Northern France where heritage railways only open odd weekends and there are as many mainline steam specials in a year as there are in a week in the U.K.

[@philnewstead5388]

steam driver Yes I do remember the controversy when Taw Valley went red but I'm sure the owners got well paid by the production company thereby allowing them to keep Taw Valley on the main line. I also remember the huge argument when Steam Railway magazine painted City Of Truro BR black on one side for an April fool stunt and just look at the arguments that have raged over FlyingScotsman's livery over the years, people saying it shouldn't carry apple green with smoke deflectors some saying to absolutely correct it shouldn't carry apple green at all and so it went on. As I said in my previous post it really is down to the owning group as an armchair preservationist I am just grateful that there are people prepared to finance and restore these things to working order. I also think that painting locos in the Harry Potter livery will encourage a next generation of preservationists, it's well over fifty years since steam haulage finished on the national network and many of us who remember day to day steam are into our sixties now.

[@philnewstead5388]

steam driver Yes I've often thought that, it's funny how things change I remember in the early years of preservation when they would apply any livery but BR look at the plethora of liveries applied by the Worth Valley and Bluebell railways in the early years although I seem to remember at the time BR prohibited those private railways from using their liveries and now it's all about accurate recreations and sometimes quite heated discussions about what colour a loco should be, at the end of the day it's only a coat of paint the important thing is that it still exists.

[@philnewstead5388]

steam driver I'm afraid I fall into that category not specifically for City Of Birmingham as we have two other Duchesses capable of mainland work and I would certainly like to see the streamlined duchess on the mainline with a rake of matching stock. Classic cars is my other passion and as with them I can't see the point of stuffing them and putting them in a museum for ever with no prospect of them running again. As I say you have a fair point with City Of Birmingham as we have two other Duchesses to see on the mainline but if she was the only one I would rather see her out in working order than on static display just to preserve a paint finish. I am very much opposed to the V2 being put in a museum forever because it has a unique cylinder casting that is now time expired surely given all the amazing things that have been done in preservation it is possible to make a replacement to allow her to keep running and keep the original for separate display or refitting to the loco when it returns to static display whilst awaiting its next overhaul. Again this can be quite an emotive subject to which there is no right or wrong standpoint.

[@davidantoniocamposbarros7528]

Brunswick ain't so bad,but it's overused af so ye

[@MouldyRaspberry]

Brilliant podcast!

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Thank you!

[@andylaws4247]

A new crank axle can be easily made for 35011. The South Devon Railway assembled a brand new crank axle for 5551 'The Unknown Warrior' with the actual axle material being sourced from S. Africa. The webs were UK sourced.

[@BrookesCastle]

The LMS Patriots crank axle is significantly smaller then that of a Merchant Navy and P2. The Boro Foundry which produced the Patriots informed us they can't do pours of the size we would require which is why us and the P2 are being forced to look worldwide for a suitable Foundry.

[@alanclifford1337]

Now 82, a terrific video for one who lived near the Waterloo-West of England main line at Farnborough from 1941-66.

[@timwoodcock5635]

Is there any precedent/argument for adding camera and screen tech to improve visibility and therefore safety?

[@RailwayManiaNet]

It's a good question, I think I've seen others raise it before. I guess such a system would have to be robust as steam locomotives are not very kind environments for electrical systems.

[@liamgough6520]

With the boiler lagging just make it with a different material other than the original asbestos lagging say steel Also love your videos

[@BrookesCastle]

The original asbestos lagging has been removed from all Bulleids (baring 35029) and have been replaced by another more suitable material.

[@liamgough6520]

@@BrookesCastle I mean when they unrebuild 21C11 for the casing

[@BrookesCastle]

@@liamgough6520 The same new lagging material is used on the rebuilts and originals under there casings. Its a problem that was fixed by owners of Bulleids post Barry.

[@liamgough6520]

@@BrookesCastle oh thanks for enlightening me.

[@Jonny_Productions]

Wow, just as top notch as the Edward Thompson podcast

[@johnkuzma7066]

When his was taking about liverys I thought he would ask if it would be in red and yellow with a great arrow on the side! Or would that be a light Pacific.

[@BrookesCastle]

That would look better on a light pacific ;-)

[@castlesandjazzers1534]

Very pleased that they're putting a Merchant Navy back into full-on Bulleid form, considering those were the Southern's heaviest express locos yet as is there's none left in their original form. Also, speaking of Bulleid Pacifics, I've been wondering for a while, do we have solid evidence that the rebuilt Bulleid Light Pacifics were less powerful than the originals? E.g. driver/fireman's statement, horsepower statistics, account of the unrebuilts' performance compared to the rebuilts', etc? (Please don't answer based on tractive effort, that isn't everything when it comes to a loco's power.)

[@crusaderiii477]

Reject br return to Bulleid

[@crewelocoman5b161]

...like the Leader Class.

[@robinfryer479]

So sorry, to keep interrupting, but, with respect to visibility through the spectacle glasses, and the Lewisham disaster, modern technology could suggest cameras in the electric lamp housings, and a video-screen in the cab, could be an option? The cab will not be quite original, in any case, owing to modern versions of AWS, being obligatorily fitted,anyway?

[@robinfryer479]

I certainly did not know that the damper’s were fitted after the reconstruction. It seems that Bulleid was somewhat badly treated by what was, in effect, the LMS, rebadged ‘BR’. If it doesn’t affect the free draughting, in any way, it could be, that had Bulleid stayed on, he may have countenanced such improvements as dampers and hopper ash-pans. I’ve often thought of Geisel ejectors, and of the advantage of eliminating fire throwing etc. Although possibly not exactly original, things in the smokebox are not normally visible. The exhaust sound is important, of course. The idea of 2 cylinders horrified me!! 2 & 4 cylinder locomotives appear not to be as fast as 3-cylinder locomotives. Apologies for any perceived biggotry. R

[@JamesSmith-mv9fp]

A major problem of the Merchant Navy class was all up weight ! The first two locos were over weight and the Chief Civil Engineer refused to accept them. Hence these two locos had to have numerous holes drilled in the chassis to reduce the weight. Locos 3 onwards, had modifications to the design before construction started to reduce their weight. Today of course the maximum permitted axle weight of many lines has been increased since these locos were originally built, so shouldn't prove a problem !!

[@rogerwatt8491]

A really interesting video which I've only found lately. While lost in admiration for those involved in the project, there seem to be SO many issues that need resolving and so many elements that will need manufacturing from scratch, the potential cost scares the living daylights out of me . . . not to mention the time it's going to take. Great video and my very best wishes for the project!

[@TheSaint491]

Well what a lovely little podcast. Hopefully you can get some of the folks from the T3 563 group on for a chinwag

[@medwaymodelrailway7129]

Enjoy video thanks

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Thank you too!

[@engineeringsentry6625]

Music

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Makes the people come together

[@eliotreader8220]

i think these bullied 4-6-2 engines are marvelous looking machines

[@984francis]

In both builds.

[@Watermillfilms]

This is brilliant. please do more!

[@discomikeyboy2012]

I wish P&O would be returned to original look also!

[@robinfryer479]

I am sorry that the 280psi WP is not proposed to be restored. Higher pressure and higher superheat temperatures, results in more available work from a reduced use of steam and reduced water consumption. Tubular boilers run at ‘thousands’ of psi, obviously below the ‘critical pressure’ (CP is when the steam no longer behaves as a gas, but a liquid).

[@crewelocoman5b161]

They also contribute to an increased tendency to slipping and higher boiler maintenance costs especially with firebox stays.

[@ade9685]

Brilliant that a West Country my fave loco so close, wasn’t £12.50 was £15.00 to join but I have anyway after enjoying the listen and presentation. Cheers Ade

[@BrookesCastle]

The membership went up on the 1st March and we forget the fee was going to go up when we recorded the podcast in February.

[@ade9685]

Not a problem glad to support wish I lived closer to come along and help out.

[@tinkertaylor6965]

Excellent and absorbing podcast. Thanks. Really like it when you get on interesting and knowledgeable people. (Jago Hazzard and Anthony Dawson were good too.) We are spoiled for videos of locomotives in action these days, but intelligent discussion is harder to come by. Btw, there is a name for the rather clumsy term, 'unrebuilt'. This is known as a retronym. Other examples would be 'First World War,' 'black and white TV' and 'landline'.

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Thank you for taking the time to write! I am very pleased you have been enjoying them as they are something of a labour of love. I rather like the name 'retronym', will try to employ it more!

[@steamgent4592]

Great program and I like the idea of putting the Bullied back to original appearance but going back to the oil bath chain driven valve gear not so much. Enjoyable program and it would be nice if you could arrange a similar interview with the LNWR George the Fifth Prince George lads!?!? That would be a excellent program as well!

[@04clemea]

Why do you think the oil Bath and chain drive, wouldn't be a good idea?

[@Mookie1340]

Great Podcast.

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Thanks for listening!

[@Tom-Lahaye]

Nice project. I think that the Merchant Navy class did look the best in as built form, with full valances fitted, especially those with the oval cutouts. Not sure however if GSN had those oval cutouts, as the picture with her in wartime black shows her with rectangular cutouts.

[@BrookesCastle]

GSN was the first Merchant Navy built with what you'd call the standardised look. Those early locos did look very pretty with those unique features.

[@leoroverman4541]

Certainly an interesting concept.

[@KPen3750]

I've just noticed at 22:44, that is a merchant Navy, with a stanier tender attached. I have many questions, but more concerning is I don't hate it

[@RailwayManiaNet]

haha, it was for the locomotive exchange trials of 1948. The SR didn't have water troughs so they used an LMS tender rather than modifying an SR one.

[@thiruraj3866]

I must watch this after school

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

33:19 The system of reversing Planet isn't crazy. It's really quite simple!

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Ha! I hoped you would see that ;)

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

@@RailwayManiaNet Like a red flag to a Bulleid?

[@cedricrennard1273]

Im quite a new railway enthusiast so pls don’t judge, but im not quite familiar with the recommendations for changes of the design for the new build A1. Could someone maybe share where I could read more about this? Thank you

[@RailwayManiaNet]

Yep sure you can read Porta's recommendations here: www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/ldp/60163/60163.htm

[@cedricrennard1273]

@@RailwayManiaNet thanks

[@Steamer96]

I wish Flying Scotsman would be rebuilt back into an A1 again.

[@garthhentley5957]

And out of gauge!

[@davidantoniocamposbarros7528]

Tooo expensive,at best remove the double chimney

[@aurch09]

Is this the same loco that was stored at Binbrook, Lincolnshire a few years ago?

[@BrookesCastle]

It is indeed. After Binkbrook she went to the West Somerset where she donated that spare axle to Braunton. Then she was off to Sellindge in Kent for a while.

[@aurch09]

@@BrookesCastle Thanks for the info.

[@kristinadams3511]

Can't you put camera

[@RailwayManiaNet]

I'm not a fan of unedited podcasts and adding video of us would mean we'd be skipping around in time constantly as I heavily edit these.

[@tracya4087]

got a piece of of it in the back garden

[@BrookesCastle]

What piece is that out of interest? Thanks

[@tracya4087]

@@BrookesCastle hiya , the left side smoke deflector , the wife uses the grab rail as a washing line , from wigan , lancs