Backwalking in Absolver: A Perspective

[@gemek3439]

Nice video Mork, I’m in a similar situation where I’m known a lot for back unlocking, and over the last year or so, I’ve pretty much stopped doing it especially in a competitive setting. And I think some of these comments are missing the point, instead of engaging with the actual argument, it’s a lot of whataboutisms and calling high level players hypocrites with no real substance besides the accusation in order to muddy the waters and get away from the actual discussion. One of the ones I’ve seen is the low back fist argument. funnily enough, lbf actually helps bolster the push back against back walking. It is the poster child for un interactive play, which is the number 1 issue when it comes to back walking. Because the right answer is to do nothing. So logically speaking, if you have a problem with low back fist, I think you should also have a problem with back walking. Hopefully we can make chinpalm safe on block and delete lbf once and for all 😂. But until then there isn’t any good alternatives 😢. Also, if you’re seeing this and feel as though you need to back walk in order to keep up with better players, come to the absolver Academy. We’ll teach you how to manage your resources so that’s never the case! I promise it’ll make you feel unstoppable

[@Morklympious]

WHOLESOME POST. PINNING IT.

[@embarrasseddisgusted7096]

lol

[@T0XETher.]

The discussion is dumb... Lbf makes people backwalk......

[@Oimetra]

I love absolver, I really do, but I can't say I'm surprised the playerbase is hurting because of yet another thing that we pointed out since beta yet slcp did not address it.

[@Morklympious]

Okay technically, they TRIED. Walking at ALL in combat used to be SO MUCH faster. They didn't fix it in a way that worked, but at least they gave it SOME try.

[@PeptoAbismol]

a fighting game without proper neutral is a fucking disaster

[@XAVES]

I hate backwalking because I can’t see what’s behind me. Bumping into stuff is embarrassing and it hurts. No idea how Michael Jackson did it with such confidence.

[@FreakyA1on]

finally, an actually good video that finally explained to me the issue of back walking fully!

[@gmkgoat]

I never expected this video from Mork "Unlock Tech" Lympious

[@Morklympious]

I'm turning face. I was heel but now I'm face.

[@XAVES]

I don’t know shit about fuck but this sounds like as much of an uphill battle as getting Hungrybox to stop stalling out when he’s playing Jigglypuff lmao Competitive concessions for the benefit of spectators have a lot of pushback from competitors, but hopefully there’s a good solution somewhere

[@geauxjira]

you knew what would happen when you made this, and you did anyway. good luck on defence, big mork.

[@Morklympious]

CONTENT IS CONTENT I DON'T FUCKIN' CARE THEY CAN COME FOR ME.

[@T0XETher.]

​@@Morklympious lmao now that's the spirit 😂🔥

[@septicsanssam9892]

imma keep it real, i only back walk when i need stamina lmao

[@Morklympious]

Yeah the argument there is like “why did you end up with no stamina and why are you walking away from a rightful punishment of mismanaging your stamina” BUT. I get that lol. No shade here because I’ve done that a lot.

[@septicsanssam9892]

@Morklympious yeah lol, ive been getting better about management but it still happens from time to time. i dont like to back away but i do it when i need it.

[@mijambgaming2424]

For a minute I was confused why Mork sounded like Jackson

[@Morklympious]

LOL

[@iGrozni]

How about taking out the "S" from WSAD ? When fighting, there is no more back walking.

[@dodgerbullet3010]

hey, kinda getting back into absolver after a long while are there any real communities around anymore? if so could one of yall send me their way, thanks

[@rahda6]

ironic that u get a reply a month later, but it seems more ppl are starting to play but as far as it goes with communities, I don’t know. Good luck tho!

[@malcolmbranch10]

These are the same people that made the run up and block game, Sifu. "Optimal play means you dont act first" sounds about right

[@Morklympious]

In their defense, they didn’t set out to make a fighting game. They DID say they wanted to make a game “about fighting and making friends” So in a lot of ways they did that! But the people that are gripped by this game are often drawn in to fighting games, so the disconnect here makes sense, imo.

[@FuriousPillow]

I personally never found this to be a problem tbh. Running is possible, but you can pretty much always catch up because you can cut off the person running and sprint attacks can force interaction. I think creating space is an obvious advantage for someone with low stamina, as it reduces the need to make defensive reads as you gain stamina back over time. It can be a benefit to either player, it just depends on the situation. If you have a stamina advantage, it's on you to prevent your opponent from creating space to maintain pressure on their stamina. I think the only thing that could be considered kind of bad is unlocks, because some can go really far, all while visually looking like pressure is continuing. You could argue LBF is just as bad, and I agree it's strong, but to me there's still interactivity on whether or not they stagger LBF and back up, let the next move after LBF rock to frame trap, or LBF stagger LBF to catch reactive mash. But at the end of the day, I think it's fairly obvious at high level play that if you want to stop your pressure to not gas yourself, you should also try to create space, as well, because it's just less risky than standing there asking your opponent to pressure. You can be godlike and just make the right defensive reads in your opponent's face, but it's just gonna be overall more consistent of a strategy to play less risky and force your opponent to only be able to pressure you in specific ways, with moves that will reach. I've played games like Injustice 2, if we really want to talk about uninteractive gameplay (look up Deadshot gameplay if you really want to see some sleep-inducing gameplay lmao). If you want to force interaction in Absolver, I think there are ways to do so at the very least. You can argue they might be riskier, but I think interactive scenarios will always have more risk for both sides, as opposed to uninteractive ones.

[@jvnedot]

How can you make the equivalence of LBF being as bad as back unlocks when LBF only disadvantages avoid classes? Running attack is absolutely worthless for starting neutral. You can't force interaction in this game. You can indefinitely sprint away from a running attack and you'll outrun it. Are you telling me that high level Absolver should look like an episode of Tom & Jerry? C'mon man.

[@FuriousPillow]

@jvnedot I said you could argue LBF is as bad because it's such a low risk move, but I think it still has interactivity. Back unlocks I think are a bit worse, because some go so far so fast that to chase you would need to mash something like Leg Breaker on a read just to catch up, which is obviously risky with such a slow mash and that might not even punish the unlock feint. I definitely think unlocks could be regulated more than backwalking, so that's a talking point for sure. I personally never found them that obnoxious, but they are good when used well. As for running, I'm obviously not advocating to run away the whole match. That's just silly. But if someone tries to, you will eventually catch them because each map has boundaries and since you're chasing, you'll know the path they're going to take and you can cut them off. But for me, personally, I never had a problem with backwalking or retreating to get stamina. That's just how the game works. When my opponent has tried to do that, I run at them to force interaction, or I walk at them if I think they're ready to poke my approach. If my opponent really wants to run the entire match, yes, that will obviously be obnoxious to deal with, but even then, I'd still just run them down to force the fight to start.

[@jvnedot]

@@FuriousPillow I don't think you've ever fought anyone who's put the problem into perspective for you if that's how you feel, no offence.

[@jvnedot]

@@FuriousPillow To add to that, I would be happy to demonstrate the argument to you in game. No shade or anything, I just think it would be easier than arguing.

[@T0XETher.]

​@@jvnedotwe've all dealt with people that run away all game, but I think lbf is more annoying to the majority of players

[@T0XETher.]

Now do one about lbf, and what happened to Redrain where he go 🤔

[@AlexShakura95]

then think before pressing the attack button, will it be the right move to counteract his back walking? Is it better to attack him first or wait until he gets close enough? even if he backwalks sooner or later he will have to go back if he wants to win, who said you have to chase your opponent and play his game, stay in place and wait for him. his attack always remains the same, he cannot change it after backwalking, there is no modification of the deck in combat :) even the simple tap block gives you a great advantage in the game. it allows you to absorb fast hits without consuming stamina and interrupt the opponent as soon as he slows down a bit, but don't talk about it, there are many ways to cheat, and backwalking is the most honest of all, because there has always been management of space between you and your opponent in fighting games.

[@Morklympious]

I can't believe Alex Shakura just entered the chat on this lmfao.

[@VA_Kushiel_AV]

The real shame here is for the people who do back walk they don't care about the game being competitive.

[@acedelaforet9220]

The real secret is to just not play the game in the first place

[@Morklympious]

But I love the game tho

[@Velindian]

Back walking would probably less common if the netcode didn't move the timing window for defending around. However, even in a perfect world where that isn't an issue, It's just too consistent and safe to throw out a counter poke with delayed timing and spacing relative to other options. "Twitch react to an attack to whiff punish and start your pressure" is so much more reliable than defending with your style ability or blocking first (which gives up your turn most of the time unlike other fighting games). Plus you get the same or sometimes an even better reward depending on how good your spacing and reaction is. So the level of commitment to defense that gives you an advantage is higher compared to "jousting" with any decent disjointed attack. I remember when back dodging was so effective that i could just apply proper whiff punish timing and use the dodge to quickly reposition after closing the distance. Allowing me to bait or poke my opponent while also being able to reset. Thankfully that hasn't been possible for a while, but the core issue of playing passively has always been a thing. In other fighting games attacks have the same level of commitment when you don't feint, but they're faster, harder to whiff punish, and have less frame advantage when blocked. So more low reward defensive play (like blocking) becomes less risky and more common. In addition, other fighting games tend to have parry or avoid mechanics with much shorter recovery or some moves are punishable/give you your turn by simply blocking. If higher risk defensive play was more consistent with better netcode it would by extension become less of a gamble and staying close would have less drawbacks. However, I don't think that would completely solve the issue unless the feint windows were consistently set within a range relative to the moves speed. Instead of being only really early or really late depending on the move. Then using slower attacks to bait someone, feint, then react into follow-up or defensive would be possible while also threatening a late feint that couldn't be reacted to. A late feint should always be unreactable relative to when the attack hits and an early feint should always be fast enough to counter twitch reaction jousting. Otherwise passive play is further incentivized. I would consider having overall lower advantage as an alternative solution, but due to how other aspects of Absolver are designed it would just make the game have so little pressure that the dominant strategy would become passive it a different way. The interaction of consistent feinting relative to timing mixups balanced by high pressure when you use predictable timing is what makes the core gameplay of Absolver so unique. Stripping away something like the overall high advantage would just lead to disincentivizing offense further due to interruption becoming way too good.

[@lucajustluca8257]

Is this a problem my character is too braindamaged to understand?

[@NiteCoffee]

Why isn't there a discourse about back shotting?

[@Morklympious]

REAL AND TRUE AND BASED.

[@StarkPierrot]

It's interesting seeing this come up so much later in life. I had a pretty much similar opinion, I didn't like the disengage unlock tech nor the back walk and had wish they added some type of punishment mechanic. I got flamed by some high level player about it. There's so much I would want to change about this game, but I've just been holding out hope another Absolver like game gets made that is more successful.

[@tonisnooker]

I really liked this game after For Honor yet no sure I should hop-in or not because playerbase is non-existent for this and other fighting games beside Tekken and KOF.

[@Morklympious]

The Competitive "gitgud" playerbase still exists! And it's a fun game if you enjoy the journey of just getting better.

[@Sirameo]

do what i do, prepare for everything.

[@hir_zs]

Hey, I'm completely new to Absolver. However, I've played other competitive games that are just as shit in some aspects (mainly For Honor) and think I got *some* understanding of some global aspects, by this I mean 'engaging fights'. If I understand correctly, the Absolver community uses mods to 'patch' some aspects of the game, does it not ? (referencing to Absolver Plus) My question then is, considering Absolver seems like a tight-knit community (at least for the competitive scene- Looking at Steam Charts, this game isnt *thriving* unfortunately), why cant these issues be addressed through small changes? Two fixes I have in mind from For Honor already are range and speed. Assuming you *can* change these aspects of the game for a more fun competitive scene (and not assuming everything is vanilla- Which may be the case as I'm not experienced in this game, but still), a fix could be to slightly buff the /range/ of every attack, so that if you engage with someone and hit them, you become for most attacks, prone to getting reached by your opponent again. Another straightforward fix For Honor has done, is to make back-walking /slower/ than front-walking, so that you can always catch up. Again, all of this is void if Absolver Plus isnt used for comp / if modding the game isn't a possibility, but still, I felt like this was good to share, and at least it made me think about mechanics in fighting games. Good video !

[@jvnedot]

The scope of the problem goes deeper than what we are capable of altering, or what would be sane to change and still have the game play relatively similar to how it does now. We can't add new scripts. We can modify movement values but not forward and backward independently. Buffing range does not address the issue, it makes keepout even stronger than it already currently is. There's no number we can tweak/buff/nerf that isn't an indirect powerup to the very thing we're trying to take away from, and that's just the nature of the game and it's limitations. Literally best we got is a house rule. Sucks to say that, but that's how it is.

[@hir_zs]

@@jvnedot I see, that's really a shame then, Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on that, as someone who's seen another form of it on FH (back-lights), I've seen different things being attempted- I agree for attack range, furthermore it can bring a whole other can of worms but that's another topic Really a shame you cant tweak different walk values, I'm 90% sure that would've sloved the issue (at least partially), but oh well, wishful thinking, Im still happy to see tournaments being played here, I wanted to try the game out someday but dont have the faith to pour another 4k hours into a brand new fighting game lmao Thanks for the answer and time you took out of your day for it !

[@gemek3439]

⁠@@hir_zs hey just wanted to let you know, trying out absolver is something you should still consider. I promise it won’t take 4K hours to get decent (you can get very good at this game in about 250 hours tbh if you know the right people) , and you’ll find a nice community to hang with as well lol. Just give it a shot, the game goes on sale quite often and if you need an inv to the server just let me know :)

[@hir_zs]

@@gemek3439 Well, I will certainly consider it then... I wouldnt mind getting the invite, no harm in trying ^^

[@embarrasseddisgusted7096]

This is the most hypocritical community I've ever encountered.

[@Morklympious]

🤷‍♂ game ain't perfect. It's okay tho.

[@sirdioth]

What does this even mean?

[@T0XETher.]

​@@sirdiothit means it's way more bullshit players do, specifically high lvl players, that is worst for the game then backing up but those things don't get talked about

[@sirdioth]

​@@T0XETher. Damn you still here? Thought you finished with bolver. Well, here's the rebuttal. Playing passively is the main issue, easiest simplest way to do it is backwalking. Playing passively also means camping lbf, or temple, or a 10f, or an etc etc etc. costs stamina. Playing Passively also means power abuse (high will regen nonsense). Costs shards Very bad/toxic/unhealthy of course You know what the dif is between that and backwalking? Backwalking costs nothing, as a matter of fact backwalking gifts you things. R3drain? As he himself said plenty, he was trying to be as toxic as possible in psn ct's, whenever faced with backwalking. Plenty entertaining especially when clowns like you don't get it.

[@sirdioth]

Tl;dr cause I know you ain't reading all that: Backwalking ain't the only bad thing, but it is the biggest bad thing. Especially for competitive play.

[@allibababoo]

This video has only convinced me i was right to uninstall after twenty minutes of playing absolver.

[@lMINERl]

im not backwalking im just role playing MJ moonwalking XD

[@jinx3465]

No backwalking... but having the utmost least visually stimulating deck/repeats and fighting style (not the literal in game styles) is way more enjoyable? Uh huh

[@Morklympious]

Neither of those things is enjoyable. It's not either/or

[@cheezit999813]

when you cant beat someone because you dont like what they do, so you have to change the game so you have a better chance of winning. absolver plus is cope

[@Morklympious]

Sorry, how many tournaments have you been in? How many have you won? Plus is a competitive balance mod and doesn't even solve the backwalking issue I'm talking about here.

[@cheezit999813]

@@Morklympious beaten most high ranked “plus” nerds with a vanilla deck. Balance is another word for change, and competitive tournaments determine who the saltiest player is, basically who learned to play the game differently than how it’s made the best. Backwalking is one of the only things not removed by plus. If you don’t like that someone does it, cry lose and have daddy change the mod more for you so you can cope with losing a little better. OR learn how the games made get gooood.

[@lidofzejar]

@@cheezit999813 Just from how stupid your string of comments are and the clear ignorance you bring to the table, I can almost guarantee you play on playstation.

[@sylanwindrunnergaming4318]

Mork. Love you, love the community.... But *this* is why so many people leave. Y'all are mad about walking at this point. I can understand 11 frames... I can understand the railings on the stairs... I think it's fucking stupid but I get why you guys (as a community of roughly 100 players) even banned EQ Shadow avoid as both powers... But this groupthink, and yes it is groupthink, is what makes non emergent gameplay. The remaining players are the ones that have turned it into a "just fucking fight" fighting game and it's evident that's what you wanted since absolver+. Stalling is a problem in absolver but if your solution for your group is "stop walking backwards" maybe you guys have lost the plot on being the best or whatever the academy does these days

[@gemek3439]

So if you understand stalling and non interactive is a problem in this game, but you don’t like the idea of discouraging back walking (which creates the problem). What would be your suggestion to tackle this? Genuinely curious

[@sylanwindrunnergaming4318]

@@gemek3439 im just saying.. whatre you guys going to bitch about next. thats all :) edit: genuinely curious

[@Morklympious]

being mad about "walking" is being mad about what makes the game unengaging. The only people that really play are tournament players and players that enjoy the fighting aspect of the game. EQ and shadow avoid are appropriately balanced in Absolver+, with EQ costing 3 shards and Shadow avoid costing 4 or 5. I'm not trying to "convince" people to stop backwalking, but I'm trying to illustrate what makes the game less engaging. Backwalking is part of that equation. It's not the end all be all solution, but it makes fights more engaging, it forces people to reckon with dumping their entire stamina bar on offense instead of walking away unpunished. "Just fucking fight" is literally what 1v1 PvP is essentially about? Stalling *is* a problem in absolver, and walking backwards is just a contributor to this. Do you have a better solution? do you have a more articulate argument? Or should we just allow people to stall matches? Is a game like Street Fighter more engaging when both players are just launching fullscreen fireballs at eachother? I'd say it's not. I'd say it's just... not fun to play or watch at that point. All the same, I apppreciate the thought behind your comment, but the game is old enough such that we don't really have more enforceable solutions other than two players agreeing to play the game.

[@TheYetixOUTx]

dang all energy gone. What a lame take. Yes over back walking is shit. Spacing is effective and part of the game. After removing avoid moves which hardly helped low level players anyway... Now it seems like this group of players is just mad people don't play like them. I got one good backstep on a fight and this guy raged. One. Just ran away the entire fight because I got one combo. Its getting stupid.

[@Morklympious]

"Ran away the entire fight" Ah yes, that sounds like the exact problem I'm describing.

[@TheYetixOUTx]

@@Morklympious naw back stepping once doesn't equate to that. Getting baited is half the game. Back stepping to regain some control vs running away the entire match the same to you?

[@jvnedot]

@@TheYetixOUTx it might as well be, yes spacing is a part of every fighting game, but there's always a consequence if you attempt to "space" and play safe and you're wrong, whether that means you gave up ground and now you're closer to the corner, you're down on life and the timer is running out, whatever Absolver simply does not have these very basic rules or consequences. "Spacing" cannot exist if the optimal thing to do is always let the other player swing first, if you need "spacing" to counterplay things that can be dealt with with good reads and reactions otherwise, I don't see why someone shouldn't do it back to you, including the extreme end of the spectrum which sounds like what happened to you. So yes, it kind of is an all-or-nothing issue, unfortunately. I don't know how you can acknowledge that "overly backwalking" is shitty without following the argument to it's natural conclusion.

[@TheYetixOUTx]

​@@jvnedot its pretty simple , when you backspace you have a chance of whiffing your attack afterward aswell. You need a thrust with some distance to capitalize. Which is easily blocked or to use your ability dodge. Saying its all or nothing is stupid its just how you look at things. I bet if someone got a backstep on you youd just run away too lol. "Wah you broke my combo." I don't know how you cant acknowledge playing with spacing is very different from two people backing away from each other and calling it a fight.. Its just brining the argument to the extreme of what doesnt happen besides with trolls to try and prove your point. Rather see more talk about how the unlock attack to backspace is fair or unfair but it sounds like you would say it isnt,

[@jvnedot]

@@TheYetixOUTx How can you speak with such confidence about something you know nothing about? How can you handwave the entire discussion away with all of the points being made with "that never happens"? Brother it's happening every time someone pulls the left stick backwards. It creates a disadvantage for the person who isn't "spacing" that literally has no mitigation against or risk associated for the person doing it.