The Dark Side of Birding: Top 5 Birding Controversies You Need to Know About

[@JeffandLeslie]

While taking photos of wildflowers, I saw a group of birders trample through an environmentally sensitive and fragile habitat destroying numerous wildflowers, some of which were wild orchids. They didn't care, even after I pointed out to them the orchids they trampled, they got the bird on their monthly county list. No argument wanted here but folks tend to ignore their own egregious behavior. I have seen horrendous behavior from photographers, birders, hikers, trail runners, school groups, off roaders, fishermen, and even scientists (I saw a bird bander break the wing of a song sparrow while getting it out of the mist net at a banding station. We think the bird was destroyed). So, any group who points fingers at another group really needs to look in the mirror. No single activity is immune from jerks, uncaring individuals or selfish behavior. Bad apples are bad apples regardless of which group to which they belong.

[@moth300]

Right. They're everywhere, and can even be ourselves. We just have to own up to our mistakes sometimes and be more aware.

[@JeffandLeslie]

@@moth300 true

[@zipzap8937]

All of your examples are great, but the person doing research and banding has to accept that these things can happen in pursuit of their research. This is not the same thing as intentionally trampling through a place you have no business being for selfish reasons. You can't honestly say they are the same.

[@actionjksn]

​@@zipzap8937 You know exactly which groups bad and irresponsible behavior to excuse don't you. As long as they have the right title they can do whatever they want. Good job!

[@JeffandLeslie]

@@zipzap8937 I didn't have time to write a book about the encounter. This case was an ornithologist from a local university and a group of students. It was the untrained volunteer student that killed the bird. In this case, yes, it was on the scientist for being careless by allowing untrained volunteers to handle the birds. I was photographing wildflowers nearby and witnessed the encounter. Song sparrows are quite common around here so it wasn't a rare bird but a needless loss of life all the same. I know this fellow because I see him out on the trail a lot and have chatted with him many times. He is a decent guy. I only hope he took a look in the mirror to reconsider how he handles these things in the future.

[@bobpourri9647]

I didn't realize birding was such a stressful undertaking. Think I'll take up something relaxing....like cave diving.

[@Smoky_Shots]

Birding is incredibly relaxing with a lot of amazing people. Everyone ive met in my 2 years of doing it has been awesome and loves to share knowledge with those with common interests

[@MoctezumaStudios]

what if you cave dive deep enough and you find a bird? Then birdwatchers will flock into your cave and you'll never go cave diving ever again.

[@wren5291]

😂 Excellent choice.

[@RGK147]

​@@Smoky_Shotswoosh!

[@Dman9fp]

​​@Smoky Shots Photography Until you realize a dead tree that's housing woodpeckers in a park is marked to be destroyed... but that's anything outdoors/ in this all too real reality I guess, cannot get too attached to anything. Or at least in Florida, you'll learn real fast...

[@johnpatton7597]

Here in south Florida a few years ago a group of photographers were photographing a spoonbill rookery. They were standing in waist deep water a respectable distance from the rookery. All were using lenses that ranged from 500 to 1200 mm. The birds were going about their normal routine. That was until a pontoon boat from the local Audubon Society showed up and motored between the photographers and the rookery. The leader of the tour got on a PA system and told the photographers they were too close. As soon as the person started speaking the spoonbills were frightened and took flight. When it made the local news the leader of the tour said the photographers were harassing the birds.Other witnesses, including some on the tour boat, said the tour leader was wrong and that person was the one who frightened the birds. Conflicts of this nature are not uncommon at this time of year here in Florida. There is a wetlands near Viera where birders have been known to block the roads so that only their group can get through.

[@harrison00xXx]

that sounds for me not like birders, more like greedy people wanting to be better or making the profit with selling a rarer picture, so basically capitalist scum, doesnt matter if they photograph or are calling themself „birders“, they are no real birders or photographers at all

[@johnpatton7597]

@@samTollefson Money always rules here in Florida. Just look at how much money was set aside to restore the Everglades. The bulk of it was spent on endless studies and very little restoration was completed other than putting diversion dams in the canal that runs beside the Turner River Road and a few bridges in route 41.

[@frenstcht]

@@samTollefson Ignore previous. I meant to cancel because it wasn't worth the time it'd take to rewrite that into something with the required nuance. But I hit reply by accident.

[@samTollefson]

@@johnpatton7597 Yes, A lot of the sugar-growing land South of Lake Okeechobee was purchased by the state with the intention of turning it back into wetlands, because of supposable "lack of funding" the land was leased back to the sugar growers in the interim. Double bonus for the sugar growers, they got to continue their operation but now hold little liability for continuing polluting the Everglades pur the state contracts and lack of oversight of their operation. If you think that is going to change anytime soon, remember the republican leadership in Florida thinks that Pollution, global warming, species extinction, etc. is Fake news put out by capitalist-hating queer liberal tree-hugging woke trans people.

[@justwondering1967]

If only there had been someone there with a camera to provide photographic evidence..dang it!

[@JamesCasatelli]

This goes both ways. One day I was out birding when I saw some black capped chickadees. I stopped to get some pictures from a distance. One flew to a tree right next to me and started checking me out. Then it flew over and landed on my shoulder. I thought, "Oh cool, I'm a Disney princess now." Next thing I know, four of his buddies flew over and started trying to get into my pockets and biting my hands looking for food. I think they were trying to mug me.

[@christopher9727]

... Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell Come to Jesus Christ today Jesus Christ is only way to heaven Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today Romans 6.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Mark 1.15 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Jesus

[@puffingtonsmythe8690]

My rules as a wildlife photographer are as follows: 1. Sit still & quite for as long as it takes without disturbing any bird especially nesting season. 2. If there aren’t any birds about to photograph then that’s tough. 3. Use as long as possible focal length lens to keep your distance away from the bird or animal (same rules apply for any wildlife). In my experiences, dog owners are worse as they don’t understand that some birds nest on the ground and can be scared away from their young very easily and will abandon their chicks or young. There is no shame in visiting bird world reserves at all to photograph them. If you use a hide and sit still you will eventually be rewarded. Again dog owners are under the elusion that whenever they walk their dogs in the countryside. They can let them off the lead, this is not the case in the UK for instance as they have to be under control at all times. (Country code)

[@JeffandLeslie]

Very rare here in the US where dogs are allowed to be running loose off the leash unless it is a marked place like a dog park or their own fenced in property. Still, I see people letting dogs run along the trail off leash at least once a week. They look at me like I'm the bad guy when I tell them the dog needs to be on a leash.

[@puffingtonsmythe8690]

@@JeffandLeslie I guess in the US you have a lot more land that isn’t privately owned. The only land we have in England that isn’t privately owned is national park and common land which isn’t much. In Scotland they have a right to roam law which means that you can basically walk anywhere. I’m in a unique position as I also run a pest and vermin company, so I’ve studied a lot of wildlife. Good to hear from you guys that have experienced the same as me. 👍🏻

[@FG-ww8rc]

Dog owners in general lack respect for native species and ecosystems. As do cat owners. I love cats and dogs but unfortunately they can have a bad impact on these kind of things

[@JeffandLeslie]

@@FG-ww8rc I cannot paint all dog and cat owners with such a broad brush. Some do but some are very respectful. Like any group of people, there are good and bad.

[@JeffandLeslie]

@@puffingtonsmythe8690 we have a lot of state, county, city and regional parks that are not privately owned plus millions of acres of government owned land, particularly in the western part of our country (BLM land). In addition to this, we do have national parks, national forest lands, national and state wildlife reserves and other public lands. We have no such "right to roam" laws here though.

[@joshuaprietophoto]

I've met a lot of birders who simply want to tick a species off on their target list and then leave three minutes after spotting them. I spoke a man who'd come from the US to Australia, telling me he'd been to several birding hotspots and seen and photographed several much loved species. We met in far north Queensland. We spoke about the local cassowaries and when when came along the beach, he took two pictures and got in his car and left. I spent a while from a distance watching its behaviour and it seemed to get used to me before getting closer for some great photos.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

I’m not gonna lie, cassowaries sound incredibly intimidating to be around let alone getting close to

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@Gamper1]

Not sure id stick around a cassowary for too long as well to be fair

[@dandrouin3796]

Yesterday I spotted a "lifer" (new to me, never seen before) through my new spotting scope. I took no pictures and after verifying with my field guide I just stood and admired it and even felt a bit guilty for having to pack up and move on after a while but still, I just enjoyed the moment with respect for the opportunity that was given to me. It was a "Common Goldeneye" and for this area, not so common.

[@Lppt87]

I personally would not consider that bird a relaxing experience. For me watching chickens is a relaxing experience… not a potential dangerous bird.

[@YetiUprising]

Another controversial topic is when I stand on my roof naked, flapping my arms and making bird calls. My neighborhood just doesn't get it.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

We were SOOOO close to putting that one at number 5

[@michaelcorcoran8768]

They don't understand you're just trying to woo a shoebill stork via Skype.

[@photoboyjet]

This video really hit home. I've only been photographing birds for a few years, but I've run into gatekeeping and playback. One of the main birders in my area uses playback to attract birds. This person knows that it is a bad idea, especially in breeding season, but does it anyway. I've also had people ask me to take down location information on rare birds. Not because they are on private property, but because they want to get some good shots before everyone else does. Birding can be a crazy hobby.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

Honestly, I had no idea the hobby could be this...toxic. My very limited experience with it was always positive. But then again, I also thought that wildlife folk could just all get along, but I learned that not everyone who gets into it are necessarily good or wholesome people. I knew a wildlife biologist no less who expressed extreme hatred of....cats. I get not everyone likes cats. I get that birders in particular have valid reasons to dislike cats. This guy was something else though. He expressed the desire to shoot cats on sight. He was also an alcoholic who drank so much that he had a large beer gut despite his job having him hike many tens of miles on the regular, so maybe that's something too. IDK. It seems that no matter what hobby or field or industry I find interest in, once I dive deep enough into them, I find that there's always a toxic element and controversy within them. I could be trying to learn origami, and find out that there's a faction of origami extremists who give people papercuts if they don't approve of the way they fold paper. It sounds ridiculous, but so do many of these things in this video.

[@alanamullen2294]

I'm not saying this is the issue, but some people also block location for rare birds to protect the species.

[@nautilus2612]

​@@ShadeSlayer1911 He's right and the way his gut looks is none of your business.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@nautilus2612 he is not right, as there are far more ways to deal with cat overpopulation that don't require such violence. And it is sorta my business, since he might come for my cats too. But also, I find it fitting that a person who holds such hatred in his heart is also a deeply unhealthy individual in a physical sense. It makes some sense. That's all I'm saying. But hey, if you find yourself allied with him, maybe look at yourself as well. Hate might be a natural emotion, and there's nothing wrong with feeling it every now and again, but holding onto it in your soul where you express such violent desires so casually and vehimently can't be good for your soul.

[@nautilus2612]

@@ShadeSlayer1911 He's far from being the only threat for your cats. When you let them outside alone and unsupervised you willingly expose them to the risk of becoming roadkill, contracting diseases, getting attacked by other animals, getting lost or stolen, all because you're too lazy to keep them on a leash and actually spend time with them. In other words you're more dangerous for your cats than he is. I do believe that outdoor and stray cats need to be suppressed, but the hatred you project on me only exists in your imagination (I'd say that the way you describe that man and mock his life struggles is hateful). I don't hate animals for performing what they're naturally inclined to do, but the problem is completely out of hand and culling them is the only option to protect our biodiversity, which is far more important than the feelings of irresponsible pet owners. Our ecosystems are not made to support thousands of allochthonous cats being dumped into the environment everyday.

[@ForrestWest]

Bird photographers abusing the playback of bird sounds is one thing that I've experienced. I've seen where even playing a bird sound once or twice changed the activity of the birds nearby and the sounds they were making. I've decided not to do it at all.

[@festerbestertester1658]

I had never heard of it until a few years ago. I met this guy who was dragging a cart with him. Besides maybe $20,000 of camera gear, he had a bluetooth speaker that he used to call birds. I asked him to show me how it worked, so he dialed up some sort of warbler or something and instantly half a dozen or so came out of the bushes.

[@johnpatton7597]

One day at Viera Wetlands I saw a photographer use a recording of a rare rail. He had flown down from Canada for the sole purpose of getting photos of that one bird. The bird would walk out of the reeds, spot the photographer and go back into the reeds. The bird did this three times before it disappeared for good. The photographer was happy; he got his one shot. The bird was not reported again that winter.

[@kokopelli314]

Do you believe that's true of pishing as well?

[@THERMALSCOPES13]

@@johnpatton7597was it a Black Rail?

[@coltharwood494]

@@THERMALSCOPES13 It has been a few years so I am not sure. I do remember it was a rail and those who saw it were very excited.

[@tacostastegreat5557]

I remember driving to someone's house to get some wood, and a whole group of people were standing all over the road and looking into their cameras to get pictures of the eagle nearby. That eagle hasn't returned to that nest, but when I go hiking (even simple ones my grandparents go on) I've seen a handful of eagles and other uncommon birds. Don't feel entitled to anything in nature, be glad you were lucky enough to encounter the amazing animals.

[@phoenixelysia]

similar thing happened when i was like, 13-ish. a pair of baldies made a nest nearby a local park, 50-100 people swarmed below their nest daily. after a week, the eagles left. Never returned. But yet, when i go driving, go hiking, eagles, hawks, owls - they all make their appearance and sometimes i even find a feather or two.

[@TheVeggieSalad]

@@phoenixelysia Just remember, it's illegal to keep the feathers of many, if not most, North American birds! 😅

[@thepspman116]

@@TheVeggieSalad not like the dude is trapping the birds an plucking them - that's why those laws exist

[@TheVeggieSalad]

@@thepspman116 Yeah, but those laws include *even* picking up shed feathers because there’s no real way to prove otherwise

[@phoenixelysia]

@@TheVeggieSalad which is a dumb law imo. hasn't done anything for poaching rates which is what the law was aimed to target. me finding a feather =/= comparable to poaching or trapping for sale of bird or feathers. ntm feral and outdoor cats doing way worse to birds than poaching, but yknow. government be dumb

[@torinkyifh5085]

Birding/Birder Etiquette should be outlined and talked about more often in the community! Thanks for the video!

[@claygan4079]

People generally know what they should/shouldn't be doing. Those that do not care will do whatever they want anyway. Discussing it is fine, but it isn't going to change people's actions.

[@jrgentobies2510]

Thouhgtful birding is key

[@tonyblake8841]

People will always justify what they want to do, not just with birding, but everything. It is human nature, and at the same time be critical of others doing something they themselves wouldn’t do. Bush bashing through forests to get “that” bird shot is one of the biggest. Stick to marked tracks and obey signage.

[@LannyChambers]

Some birders are anti-banding, which is self-defeating as banding is the primary tool for gathering data necessary to protect wild birds and their habitats. I band hummingbirds, and occasionally trap, band, and document "out of range" hummers, especially in winter. Some birders seem to resent my use of measurements to identify young or female hummingbirds, as if it were cheating. Some believe that banding will spook a rare bird and ruin their chance to see it, though every off-season hummer I ever trapped returned to the same feeder within hours, if not minutes.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

Thanks for commenting, Lanny. That is a very interesting topic that I have seen debated before.

[@Neenerella333]

How do you band a hummingbird? It's gotta be like making fine jewelry.😄 With the world's smallest crimping tool.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

@@Neenerella333 check it out! kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHnCq5V5jNp1sM0

[@kokopelli314]

Banding is an activity people do because they want to help. What will actually help is to destroying habitat.

[@StarWarsomania]

Lol, I once banded an out-of-range Canada Warbler on migration. It not only stayed around for a week, it repeatedly hit our nets in that time, at least four different instances. It certainly wasn’t “spooked” by either the netting process or the general “manhandling” of extraction and processing. Same thing happened with an Ovenbird that year. Birders kept showing up asking about it, and I just pointed in the direction of Net 4 “somewhere over there”. I’ve never heard of people bitching about measurement use before, that’s wild. I’m honestly confused on how they think one should positively ID such birds. Guessing? Because I have to ID empids in hand every year, and the answer always is “ridiculous measurements, unless p6 is not emarginate”. Although I think Pyle was high when he came up with his separation of Western-type flycatchers. Total BS.

[@jgyekis]

I would add birders who allow their own cats outdoors and birders that don't treat their home window glass to prevent collisions and honorific names are some other good ones to discuss if you ever do a second video.

[@TomReichner]

Those are really good additional topics! Another one would be changing the common name of a species. I have strong feelings against changing the name "Gray Jay" to "Canada Jay". I also have a problem with so many folks just brainlessly following along like sheep and doing whatever they're told they should do, when it comes to using new common names.

[@ForrestWest]

We used a white paint marker to make vertical lines about 4 in apart on the outsides of our large windows around our house. I think I used a 1x4 wooden board to make the straight lines. We haven't had birds hitting our window since we did that.

[@Michal_Bauer]

People who allow their cats outside are just straightforward enemies of wildlife. Should be severly punished, unfortunetly no goverment anywhere in the world is brave enough to seriously protect wildlife.

[@claygan4079]

@@TomReichner I think we should ask the birds what they want to be called. I don't think Tom from nowheresville should be the decider on what perople can and can't call a bird.

[@TomReichner]

@@claygan4079 I think your reply to me is a bit disrespectful. I never never NEVER proposed that I should be the one to decide what other people call the birds. Get your facts straight before you semi-accuse me of implying something that I never implied.

[@rumin8470]

I am definitely a bird photographer and not a birder. I often take pictures first and identify later. Bird photography has gotten me much more interested in birds and their well being. Also I share my photos with others outside the bird community which can only be good for pro-bird politics. Two different hobbies using the same resource, mutual respect is called for. I will say that mirrorless cameras with silent electronic shutters and high iso cameras should reduce shutter/mirror noise and flash, both of which could definitely be intrusions by bird photographers on the shared use with birders.

[@mc12358]

I would never use flash on any wild animal anyway, but I can't afford to go mirrorless yet (even though Nikon Z is on my dream list, if anyone wants to donate I'll send you my paypal address 🤪) I have noticed birds react in various ways to the sound of the shutter when I'm taking photos. So I try to be careful with that if I'm in close proximity.

[@JeffandLeslie]

I shot film SLR's and DSLRs for over 40 years. I think I could count on one hand with fingers left over the birds that have been scared off by my camera shutter. Usually it is my own movement that will scare them away. They typically ignore the shutter sound. I shoot mirrorless now but I have seen no difference. Birds don't care about the click, they do care about a large mammal moving about close to them (that large mammal would be anyone reading this).

[@MatthewsPersonal]

Yeah, i use photographs to get better looksnat birds and identify them. I dislike being an intrusion to the birds I see, so the keener bird photographers annoy me a bit.

[@nicktasteless360]

​@@mc12358 using flash in bird photography is useless, the birds are usually far away. And flashes makes the picutres unnatural which is counterproductive to most bird photographers who aims to get the most natural and true to life picture

[@quinn-tessential3232]

Birding ethics is a major issue. "Listers" and certain photographers are the biggest problem. Either group will do ANYTHING to locate and/or photograph a bird -- trample habitat, play taped calls, doesn't matter. Anything goes. Offending photographers in particular act as if spending several thousand dollars on gear exempts them from all rules of conduct. I've suggested to eBird that they require every user to complete a Birding Ethics training course, but I'm sure they won't do it. They won't want to offend anyone. But eBird is riding a very fine line. They encourage and celebrate the submission of high quality images, but will then list a bird as "sensitive" if too many people try to capture its image. They're trying to play both sides. To my mind, this obligates eBird to emphasize and train people on ethical behavior in the field.

[@ElizabethFranquiEsq]

Wow. I'm just a bird admirer and never heard about how wild birders can get. I'll stick to watching them at my bird feeding station.

[@emeraldcrusade5016]

It's how Humans operate my friend. Unfortunetly the internet seems to awaken the worst aspects of Humanity.

[@festerbestertester1658]

What?? I thought that movie, um..The Big Year(?) was required viewing for all birders.

[@heimdall4148]

I haven't come across this behavior in my country luckily.

fwiw the bad behavior is a vast minority in my experience

[@lunavanadis3797]

Definitely need to watch The Big Year. It's really like that sometimes.

[@andymok7945]

I am both a birder and a photographer, been a birder far longer. There are idiots on both sides and I have encountered them. There will always be those that give the rest a bad reputation. More and more, I find it necessary to keep quiet about certain findings. Otherwise chaos begins. Even with the common findings. I only share with a very select few people that I have known for years and trust.

[@mc12358]

I am a birder first and photographer second. Sometimes I go birding without my camera, but never without my binoculars. I've learned it's best to just keep quiet about most things, and if there is something noteworthy enough to share, use as few words as possible.

[@andymok7945]

@@mc12358 I agree. Last year I was luck enough to watch a pair of Blue-gray Gnatcatchers from day one of building the nest until they fledged. I never had the opportunity to see something like this before. It was amazing. I had the fortune to get get photos and some short video clips during that time. One day I see the vegetation had been trampled down to just inches on the tree they were nesting in. They were still their. It was such a joy to watch them as the built the nest, go out for food, defend the nest and look after the young, I even saw a female American Redstart come in close to the nest and was chased off. A few times, she came back when the nesters were not around. She was stealing bits of the spider web for her own nest. This was quite the thrill for me to have been witness to this from start to end.

[@chrisdunfield513]

My friend and I were birding a NWR when a couple motioned us over and showed us a bird that was jumping around in the bushes. We got some nice views before it flew off. It was a life bird for my friend and me, and way out of normal range, maybe even a state record. We were going to report the sighting at HQ. "No way!" said the couple. "Did you get a photo?" No. "Could you find it again?" Uh, no, looks like it's gone. "Forget about it. They'll never believe you. Just check the box, keep your mouths shut and be happy you got to see it." It was good advice.

[@samaraflener4484]

Great video and topic! My #1 rule is do no harm. Birds and nature in general are under so much pressure that I consciously try to minimize my impact as much as possible. Of course, I also know my mere presence will have an impact on bird behavior but I try to be respectful and keep my distance always. What gets to me are the folks who feel entitled to it all no matter what. In a recent FB bird group post, the photographer thought nothing of walking under a Red-tailed hawk that was hunting from a power line just to flush the bird in order to get a flight shot. The invasion of space, the pursuit and the total lack of respect…. I can’t even. 😐Hopefully we can keep talking to one another and learning. Once we know better, we can do better and we’re really going to have to do better. I want to thank all of the fellow nature/ bird lovers out there for keeping it ethical! ✊😎

[@BadgerlandBirding]

We have a guy in wisconsin who gets way too close to rare birds and on numerous occasions has flushed them away and ruined the experience for everyone

[@Panzer_the_Merganser]

@@BadgerlandBirding Is it Rocky Rococo? That guy is a menace. (Kidding, it’s too bad there’s always someone that has to be a jerk)

[@irenedubicka6646]

Some people are just "collectors" of "lifers," and are preoccupied with ID'g and counting birds. Others prefer to study and capture behavior with their photography.

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@missjo5ie]

I’m not part of the birding community, but I have observed similar debates in the herping (reptile) community 😅 Especially the gatekeeping and invasive species discourse

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@MrChopsticktech]

Same here. I would visit a local pond in a county park, creep closer to the water slowly and silently to the edge, then sit or stand motionless and look around. I could be there in one spot for at least a half hour. Then someone with a big dog off a leash would come trampling through the bushes and scare everything away. Even worse was the owners who let the dogs off their leashes (against park rules) and the dogs would splash through the water.

[@bugjams]

Stuff like this seems to happen in every hobby that involves photographing living things. I photograph insects as a hobby (not professionally by any means) and im not part of a community, but I've seen online discourse. One of the main concerns is touching the insects, as there's concerns your skin oils might harm them. This is usually only true for insects with sensitive wings such as moths and butterflies. I handle insects all the time, because most of them aren't as threatened by your skin as some might suggest, and also it's just fun. Touching most insects doesn't do as much harm as holding a bird or small reptile might do. And even if it does, insect populations are huge. Another thing I've seen affect both insect photographers and herpers is the idea of framing a scene. That is, manipulating the environment and/or subject to get a better picture. You've probably seen the infamous picture of a frog riding a beetle like a cowboy, which was proven to be heavily staged. So much so that the frog was probably injured on purpose to get it to open its mouth, which they normally don't do for no reason. I always try to ensure the insects I photograph and calm and relaxed. If they aren't relaxed when I catch them, I let them relax before taking a photo (it's just easier that way anyways). I also do my part to squish and report any invasive species after capturing them, such as Spongy moths or Spotted lanternflies, which should absolutely NOT be left alone.

[@HiNRGboy]

@@bugjams Insects are awesome man! I'm just a lover of our backyard wild nature in general, love insects, spiders, birds, reptiles, amphibians, rodents, and all our plants and trees. Not a fan of any harmful invasive species though.

[@jdf585-p2g]

Keeping sites among trusted people is different in the herping community. Herps are easily poached and poaching is a very real threat. I don’t see it as gatekeeping at all.

[@desertdarlene]

Gatekeeping is probably what irritates me the most about birding, especially if the bird is in a public space. However, it is frustrating when you go out to view a bird and there's a large crowd of irritable birders there. I can definitely understand a homeowner not wanting a mob on their private property, though.

[@bpdp379]

I’m not a birder or watcher (algorithm brought me here) but don’t understand “gatekeeping” at all. Nobody has a right to access private property. And nobody can impose their ethics on your access to public land as long as the access and activity is legal. What is the dispute?

[@Neenerella333]

@@bpdp379 That was my question too: your property, your rules. Public property? I suppose the powers that be(BLM, Forest Service, Park service, local municipality, Fish and Game Dept.) may get involved when an area becomes so crowded no one can see anything. I just came back from a large forest in Europe, known for climbing. Due to the Spring holiday week, there were people nearly every 6 feet.

[@appalachiabrauchfrau]

I never knew birders and foamers could be so alike. Used to couch crash in an apartment across from a dilapidated building with chimney swifts roosting in the smoke stacks. Birders would come and get great pictures of them coming and going from the chimney but we'd occasionally get random people in our hallways trying to find roof access. They'd ring our doorbell at weird times hoping to set up on the roof with all their equipment with an hour to spare, freaked me out because it wasn't a good neighborhood and I'm not opening the front door at 6am lol. To the back of us was a historic railroad that would run heritage units pretty regularly, it was a foamer's delight and they'd do the same gd thing, asking for roof access, ringing the doorbell at weird hours, clogging up our tiny parking lot, littering, etc. Had one guy ask to take photos out of the bedroom window when a unit was stopped on the tracks (we were on the top floor with windows facing the tracks). I'd use the heritages to get around pretty reliably because they mostly do short trips -- context for this tangent: a lot of foamers hate freight hoppers because they don't like us ruining their pictures -- a guy recognized me and tried to call the cops while I was outside smoking. The cops were obviously uninterested (unless you're busted on a train or in a yard you're good, mostly) but that foamer had a chip on his shoulder over me from then on. I decided to let some others who hadn't been pests onto our roof to get shots of a very old heritage unit that was almost never used anymore going over an old trellis, something you can't really see from the ground. That didn't help my standing with Mr. Snitch, but it was very funny watching him glare up at them. If you practice leave no trace, don't make much noise, don't block parking and aren't an annoyance then there's no harm in asking to take shots from private property after you and the owner have exchanged hand waves and pleasantries a few times. You'd be surprised what being polite and friendly will get you.

[@CH4NN3L_o_o]

In my area, there is a ruby-throated hummingbird nest in a public state park that is obviously in an accessible area. They're not rare. But only the award-winning photographers are allowed to know where it is. I just wanted to see a hummingbird nest IRL, not even photograph it. I seriously considered searching the entire park to find it and post the location online just to spite them. This is the kind of gatekeeping that is annoying and drives newer people like me away. I just choose to detach from the birding community in my area because it is a super elitist group that heavily emphasizes photography with extremely expensive equipment while viewing birders who are more interested in observing birds with binoculars as 'lesser' since you can't PROVE you saw the bird.

[@Whimbrel24]

I also thought of cats (primarily the outdoor and feral ones) and eBird Reviewers playing favorites and/or not requiring the same evidence from all birders. Thanks for the video guys, love your work!!

[@mc12358]

How about eBird users that intentionally give one or two star ratings to your own 5 star photos, so their own photos will be seen more often? I've seen terrible, like Nokia flip phone quality pics, with five star ratings. While on the other hand, I've seen pics worth of National Geographic get only one or two stars. I rate my own photos in case I ever want to come back to them and look for something good to print, but I really, really wish people would stop misusing the rating system on eBird.

[@stephenspark9358]

@@mc12358 Trolls Abound

[@tonyweisse3285]

Excellent work as usual! One item I personally struggle with is how far to drive "just" to see a bird. I have birded on and off for about 50 years and have certainly put in my fair share of miles behind the wheel in the pursuit of birds. Now I typically combine birding with other activities such as hiking, exploring a new community, etc. I realize this is just an attempt to justify myself, but I think we should consider what resources go into the pursuit of our chosen hobby. In my opinion, this is strictly a personal choice.

[@3island]

How far to drive is absolutely on my list of questions. Often when I get done "birding" for the day I find that I personally have had very little exercise but have burned up about 12 gallons of gasoline in my Toyota. I'm with you in the "struggle." I am also always looking for excuses to go places. This week I was "lucky" to get called to work 130 miles away from home. But yes, 1) HOW FAR DO YOU DRIVE TO SEE A BIRD; and 2) How far do you drive just to "go birding" for the day? So far, I've only gone less than 100 miles one way with the SOLE purpose of seeing a specific species that may have been reported. But if an ivory billed DID show up 500 miles away - well, gas 'er up! How good is THAT for the environment and the birds?

[@maegpye]

I have personally benefitted greatly from expanding from being a birder to being a general naturalist. Birds are often the way I decide where we are going for the day (or for longer trips) but I never observe just birds. I've joined iNaturalist and now observe everything: insects, spiders, plants, fungi, slime molds, fish, crustaceans, moss, lichen... whatever I can find. It makes each trip so much more personally richer.. the disappointment when I don't find that hero bird less impactful... and creates more 'bang for my buck' when it comes to the carbon footprint of car travel. I also thinks it's made me way more environmentally conscious as I see the effect of climate/habitat degradation on a much wider spectrum of wildlife than just birds.

[@jasonb2089]

100% this! I live in an area with a very active birding community. Rare bird alerts go out constantly and for awhile I was driving multiple times a week just to see a bird. A couple spring migrations ago I struck a Black-throated blue warbler with my car as it flew across the road I was driving on. Since then I've also struggled with this question. Now I mostly go out bird watching when I want to spend a day out in nature and appreciate our winged friends. And honestly, I've refound that magic I felt when I first started. For me, it's no longer about seeing every species, but experiencing those special and unexpected moments that inevitably happen when I'm out exploring with no specific goal in mind.

[@maegpye]

@@quixote5844 first, I stated I'm much more environmentally conscious these days and second, you're making some assumptions about what I do or don't support.

[@quixote5844]

@@maegpye I didn’t mean to offend you. So, enlighten us. What do you support? What made you environmentally conscious? Help others get on board. So many birders I know, get offended when I suggest that they support environmental groups. “I don’t want to get political” they say. Neither do I, but that’s the price of admission. Pay it forward. Or lose the birds you chase.

[@hmoobdude391]

Damn….y’all bird watchers are gangster Did not know bird watching topic can be that intense. You guys have a lot of energy

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@JoeOvercoat]

I can clear up one aspect of gatekeeping: if it’s my property then I choose who stays and who goes. It’s pretty simple. Why I choose who gets to do what on my property does not enter into it.

[@SuperDaveP270]

The biggest fights I have been involved with on social media Birding-related groups has been around 1) invasive species and 2) feral cats. I do not mind if a person does not want to be involved in the culling of individuals of an invasive species, but I do not understand how some people get so worked up in the defense of the invasives! We have numerous examples of species so dominant that eradication would be close to impossible at this point, so...why not work to prevent more from reaching that point? (I am looking at YOU, European Goldfinch!) That logic does not work with some people, who instead insist these animals deserve to live there despite their impacts on native species and ecosystems. Like I said, it is fine if they do not want to be involved in that process, but I dislike it when they actively try to prevent it. Then of course there are feral cats, which is essentially just another invasive species that needs to be eliminated, but people view cats differently, to say the least. I mean, sure, it sucks to have to kill a cat, but what would be so much better is to get people to not let them outside in the first place, have the same laws that apply to every other animal be applied to cats as well---instead of giving them special status, their owners special exemptions from having to confine them to their own property and prevent them from becoming feral in the first place. Enforce these laws with fines and repercussions strong enough to be prohibitive. Fix the problem at its source: irresponsible pet owners! But instead the cities and states grant PROTECTIONS for the cats and allow irresponsible owners to perpetuate the problem. This is enough of a hot debate anywhere, but why it is ever a debate in a BIRDING group is beyond me. There is a vast chasm between those who only want to see something pretty and those who want to preserve wildlife/habitat/ecosystems. The latter will always be a part of the former also, but that former...well, they will never understand the latter, not even a little.

[@shellysmith1037]

ohhhh.... now I see what you are saying. There are some weirdos out there...

[@spinny2010]

Please feel free to send back our house sparrows, starlings and gold finches to the UK. Humanely, obviously. Population crashes over the last 50 odd years has been dramatic. Intensive farming practices is most likely the biggest contributing factor.

[@cyanconure]

Honestly people don’t want to say it outright but most people would probably prefer if all native species go extinct rather than if feral cats were exterminated because of their unfair bias towards these animals.

[@Kiraiko44]

@@spinny2010 I wish there was a program to move these invasives back where they belong especially if the species is struggling in its native range

[@Kiraiko44]

Every time Australia culls feral cats that are decimating their very rare endangered species, people come out of the woodwork to cry about how cruel it is. But none of those same people would be crying if they were culling rats instead, in fact Australia and New Zealand have active programs to trap and kill as many rats as they can year round but people don't care about that. They care about cute fluffy cats being killed. And then they'll claim they love animals and nature 🙄

[@heimdall4148]

One legit reason for gate keeping is leaving the bird alone to breed in peace.

[@maryblaufuss7533]

Whether the topic is gatekeeping or any other, the priority should be respect for the wildlife.

[@audreyboag7670]

Yes, this.

[@commandermudpie]

Excellent video. You introduced the topics without judging. I would add one more controversy amongst people who feed birds... hawks that eat the feeder birds. Some people love to see a hawk and some people are heartbroken when a hawk takes one of their feeder birds.

[@BPaparazzi]

I learned that the hard way after calling in the small birds to the feeder noticing I had actually assisted a Coopers hawk in locating them. Now I have the feeder close to the bushes so they can have a chance to protect themselves which they do. I still see that Coopers hawk from time to time.

[@gertrudewest4535]

Always put your feeders under good cover of trees and shrubs. It’s a recipe for disaster and cruel to put feeders in the open space.

[@mc12358]

Your feeders are attracting the Cooper's (or Sharp-shinned) Hawk's favorite meal. I expect it from time to time and it's just nature being like it always has been. But I also put my feeders close to thick cover, so if a hawk does come to my yard, the birds have plenty of places to hide. The entire eastern edge of my property is a huge privacy hedge that's been growing for 10+ years. And we have large waxmyrtle and silverthorn shrubs on the north side. My saddest moment was finding a pile of feathers that belonged to a Great Crested Flycatcher one summer (Flycatchers aren't even a feeder species, but I had one occupying my yard at the time). But, the hawks need to eat just as much as our favorite yard birds, and I always get excited when I see one, even if the poor Mourning Doves are terrified!

[@margaretknott9506]

While I love seeing hawks do their thing, all our feeders are in covered areas with lots of bushes and trees. Hawks almost never take them but one year we had Broad Wing Hawks. Those guys didn't have a single issue catching birds from the bush. It was an amazing sight to see them weave effortlessly through the branches.

[@BPaparazzi]

@@margaretknott9506 we've had a rare occupation by a broad winged hawk here in Idaho. It must've gotten lost during last year's migration. Beautiful bird.

[@FG-ww8rc]

I am not much of a birder or photographer at all; but I understand the gatekeeping. Even if it would make it more difficult for me to get into the hobby I still think it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Assuming the group gatekeeping a particular bird or area is treating these often sensitive species and ecosystems with the proper respect; its probably a better thing than having inexperienced or disrespectful people have access to whatever it may be. Even if you do avoid the 'bad eggs' having lots of people go into something like a wetland isn't always the best thing for that environment.

[@smelltheglove2038]

I agree that gatekeeping can be a force for good. No one likes when their little known peaceful hobby becomes trendy. Johnny-Come-Lately’s can ruin your hobby. They don’t understand the etiquette and think you’re being an asshole for trying to explain it to them.

[@173jaSon371]

@@smelltheglove2038 My main issue with those new-comers is that a big chunk don't really want to get into understanding wildlife and appreciating it, they want someone else to do it for them essentially. It takes a lot of effort to understand when and where you are most likely to see certain things, then some people without a clue expect you to just tell them where to find each and every thing for themselves. I know in the herping world(reptiles/amphibians) no one shares locations with anyone hardly because these habitats are so sensitive and many people are careless and have a profound negative impact on the things they so badly want to see.

[@trentbrownstone1481]

​@@173jaSon371 so so so so lame

[@nashiibear]

I agree, I’m still very much a novice birder so I hadn’t heard of people gatekeeping as described in the video. The only time I’ve seen restriction on location sharing in my local Facebook group was for very sensitive or protected species. They also sometimes restrict sharing photos of certain species during particular times of year at all, to discourage the community from disrupting them. If I saw a bird on my private property I would most likely not broadcast the location for safety reasons, not because I want to handpick who gets to see a bird. But gatekeeping a bird that is not protected/sensitive that is otherwise publicly accessible… That’s a whole other ballgame, wow.

[@audreyboag7670]

@@nashiibearSo glad that your Facebook group in mindful! Please consider that a bird who is not protected by law or who chooses to nest on public property is no less deserving of protection. You will be a better birder and have fewer regrets.

[@JeffWeymier]

Great topic. I've seen and experienced a lot of what you are saying. There are some birding cliques out there that will all post photos on a bird and then on the post say undisclosed location. It's not an undisclosed location if a person finds it and then tells 10 of their friends and then nobody else. It's happened to me a lot. I consider myself a very ethical bird photographer and wouldn't harass a bird for a shot. I've almost gotten in fights with people who will run out in a field to chase down an owl or other birds to get closer.

[@ozzy942]

I totally agree with you on this. Out in Geneva Illinois there ws a GHO nest and all what I call bad photographers harassed the poor thing by kicking the tree to get photos and it got so stressed it fell out of the nest and died.

[@173jaSon371]

@@ozzy942 Wow that is horrible jesus. People really do have no damn sense when they get excited about something. Like the videos of people filming enormous waves or volcanoes until they're all suddenly running for the hills lol. I always research what I'm getting myself into beforehand, whether it's what a venemous snake looks like in an area I'm unfamiliar with, or how to ethically take owl pictures, or what gear to have in cold weather hiking or kayaking. Feels like most people today don't stop to think, they just run out and DO and the odds of things going terribly wrong is much higher.

[@jackieconnelly-fornuff3594]

The exact same thing happens where I am on Long Island. People have their cliques and they all text each other when they find sensitive species like Owls and especially the Snowy Owl. It's horrible sometimes.

[@kevininman2461]

Another one that isn't mentioned is incessant loud talking on field trips. This SHOULD be addressed by the field trip leader before the trip begins and if that doesn't "'take", readdressed on the field trip. This is the main reason I stopped going with my local chapter and now bird with a smaller select group of friends who know how to behave on outings to maximize the number of species seen and the quality of observation time.

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@gaitazampogna32]

There is another controversy that is missing from the video. The fuel burn, and the ethics of transportation and CO2 emissions! I heard about a local birder who did only his local county in Scotland but did 20k miles, or 30k km driving, mostly alone, to be at the perfect spot every single day at the perfect time to see everything, in addition to twitching every single rarity. This is rather an obsession and the fuel burn outweighs the positive environmental aspect of birding and landscape management at the reserves! Your thoughts? Signed by a birder who does 80%-90% on foot, bicycle, train and bus, and once a month carpooling

[@MegInWhispers]

please make a video about outdoor cats, citing research about how they impact bird populations! i would share it far and wide if you made one with the statistics and context to back it up for those who don't get it!

[@_Chessa_]

Yup that’s another controversy. People that own cats that allow them to hunt outside. I’ve tried talking to someone that owned outside cats about recent sightings of coyotes. They told me their cats would be so sad and they hate being indoors. well, she lost both cats I assume to the coyotes. And her cats were hunting and killing the birds in the area. There’s plenty more that allow their cats to roam freely in the area and it kinda sucks when I have to try and shoo them away. Because I do like cats.

[@Johnthecollie]

@@_Chessa_ In El Paso feral cats have more rights than pet dogs. I've tried to get people to spay but the city stopped paying for it years ago. Now there are hardly any birds and feral cats all over the city. I have 8 in my yard everyday I spray with a hose to keep away.

[@Kiraiko44]

@@_Chessa_ people like this drive me insane, they just dont' want to actually have to take care of their cats. People get cats because they're usually more independent than dogs but then act like that means they just have to feed them and that's all, and if they let them outside then hey less litterbox mess to clean up. Those owners don't want to accept that when you get a pet, you're completely responsible for it, including keeping it safe and also preventing it from doing damage. Keep your cats inside, play with them, provide them with areas to jump and climb, leash train them, and your cats will be happy AND safe. And yes, you can leash train cats, it's not like walking a dog at all but my cats love it. I never have to worry about them getting attacked by dogs or coyotes, or hurt by cruel humans, or hit by cars, or eating poisoned food, or any of the other things I've seen so many people's outdoor cats be injured or killed by.

[@llofdarkwater9152]

@Atroxa I've leash trained a formerly outdoor only cat that moved in with us from a neighbor ( he's almost 16 now). I've leash trained a formal feral ( she's about 18 months old ), who decided to turn in her feral card four days before having kittens. ( I leash trained all the kittens before they went to new homes. ) It didn't take much time, just patience. We take them for "Outside Time" each late afternoon, both on their own ten foot lead. I have bird feeders, and a bird bath about six feet from the distance where the leads end. The cats know how far they can go, and the birds know it, too! If the feral ( that I'm still trying to trap ) wanders near, the birds alarm and take flight. But they seem to know my two cats can't reach. My family of crows that visit each day when we are out with my cats seem to enjoy taunting the cats just a couple of feet from the end of their leads. The cats enjoy lazing about the front porch, the cats and birds are safe, and the crows have a good laugh at the expense of the cats.

[@Kiraiko44]

@YTCensors I basically refuse to be friends with people who have outdoor cats these days because of people like the neighbor you mentioned. Almost all of them would regularly have one of their cats disappear or would find them dead and then a couple weeks later they'd have a new one and then repeat the process. And every time they talked about losing another cat I wanted to ask them "so when are you going to stop sacrificing the poor things so you can have something furry and cute to play with for a year or two?" Was hard to feel bad for them when in my book it was all their fault (felt bad for the cats tho, they're supposed to be cared for and instead they just get dumped outside and killed). I know cats can and do still get out sometimes but keeping them in as much as possible is just better for everyone. Cause I also can't stand having people's cats in my yard, pissing on everything and killing birds. Sometimes I can tell they're strays and I feel bad for them but most of the time they're someone's pet or they're being fed by someone at least, and are just killing birds for fun. (Which yes, to anyone who wants to argue with me, cats most certainly do, go look it up)

[@Megraptor]

Two topics that could be investigated - Hunting and Brown-headed Cowbirds. The Coebirds are native but tons of birders in North America hate them. Idk if Cuckoos are the same way in Europe, but some birders will destroy Cowbird eggs. That is illegal under the MBTA. Then there's the hunting controversy. Hunters and birders tend not to get along, even though hunters (usually) care about the animals as much as birders do. This has really gotten ugly over Sandhill Cranes lately. To make things more complicated, in the US, guns and ammo fund conservation, while no birder (or photographer gear for that matter) does. Some have argued that taxes should be put on binoculars, camping/hiking gear and other outdoor gear like there is on hunting and fishing gear, but these get shot down by outdoor recreation associations. So hunters and fishers are the ones footing the bill, even though they are a dying breed...

[@BadgerlandBirding]

Both of those are definitely interesting and worth discussing. Will probably be making a cowbird video at some point

[@audreyboag7670]

Colorado recently realized a 30% increase in wildlife and recreation funding by offering a lower cost state park pass with your vehicle registration. We also have a state tax form check-off for non-game wildlife (a donation via less return). It's a start. If I recall correctly, there was a study in the last ten years or so that showed increased host nest success in nests parasitized by Cuckoos.

[@cherriemcbratney162]

This information is so very well presented. I am a novice at bird watching and feeding. We enjoy watching and feeding various birds, even cleaning feeders, birdbaths, and birdhouses of debris. Yes, I am frustrated by the sparrows and starlings so we try to discourage them versus doing harm to them. I will pull sparrow nests from the bluebird boxes but had no clue how aggressive people got over taking photos and stealing photos and using as their own until recently. Thank you for your excellent work, commentary and documentation of your efforts and of course sharing and educating birders on current issue. Keep up your ethical work and educating us on all the issues. 😊

[@RosiePerera]

Great video. Thank you! Other topics that I've seen start controversies or people ganging up on newbies in birding communities are: 1) whether to feed wild birds or not, and if you do, how to make hummingbird nectar; 2) letting cats outside; 3) what to do if you find an injured bird or a baby bird that has fallen out of its nest; 4) birding while Black.

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@birdingbythebay]

Who doesn't love some good birding controversy. (The Ivory bill LIVES!)

[@svenlauke1190]

that last one is not a controversy in my opinion. if the bird is on your property, you are not forced to allow anyone entry. and where I live (not US) keeping the location of rare birds secret is usually a concern of environmental issues.

[@paulhendershott667]

I swear I saw an ivory-billed woodpecker... it just appeared out of nowhere while I was in a nearby forest sharing a cold cup of water from the fountain-of-youth with Big Foot.

[@festerbestertester1658]

Around here, it's the Golden Eagle, which aren't very common. Or should I say they are very uncommon? But people insist that they've seen them. I wonder if they know about bald eagle youngsters, which are fairly common.

[@affordabledesertliving3487]

Here we go. The most hot topic of all. Sadly this wonderful woodpecker stirs up the most negative comments and opinions of any species on the planet. The standard now for proof of its existence is higher than even some of the most rare species on the planet and then some. More than likely only a fresh carcass on a lab table viewed by the elite birders of the world would satisfy. But then those equivalent to the flat earth society would still deny it. This species brings out some of the worst of human kinds attributes I would say. Its just an odd odd phenomenon I find.

[@y00wl]

There controversies are incredibly relatable... You did an amazing job at introducing the topics with a neutral tone. On the Woodpecker situation, I believe that it could be found again, but what I don't get is why people get so "excited" (I don't know how to say that in English sorry : / ) about that specie in particular. Many species went "extinct" for a decade, two, sometimes a century or more, before being found again. People shouldn't spend their energy arguing, but looking for the bird instead.

[@stickmanblubbles4489]

The ivory billed woodpecker is exciting because after the imperial woodpecker went extinct, the ivory billed became the largest woodpecker in the world. Its reasonable that people care about it. People did look for it, they didn't find it so they called it extinct and stopped looking. The only region left with even the slightest chance of finding a live one is frequented by the cartel; it should be understandable why people don't look there.

[@Faesharlyn]

Excited is the right word, maybe "outraged" is another that fits. Some people can be very passionate abut their birds

[@ewan735]

@@stickmanblubbles4489 what region is that?

[@stickmanblubbles4489]

@@ewan735 I was referring to Sierra Madre Occidental, but I made a mistake. I accidentally attributed to the ivory billed what was actually the case for the imperial woodpecker.

[@DemPilafian]

I used to vigorously engage in debates about the *ivory billed woodpecker* until I realized I was just banging my head against the wall.

[@spinny2010]

I get hours of pleasure from viewing even the commonest of garden birds through binoculars without the need to photograph them or tick off different species. They are simply beautiful and I think the two groups mentioned here may often be too busy with their hobby to appreciate that simple pleasure. Ps. Being from the UK I miss seeing and hearing huge flocks of house sparrows and starlings flitting about. Meanwhile over the pond they are considered pests, VERMIN even. Such a shame. We have our own issues with "invasive" species as well though. So I sort of understand the animosity; without looking upon those species as VERMIN! They're just in the wrong place thanks to human meddling.

[@smelltheglove2038]

The house sparrows and starlings displace local birds like bluebirds that are much prettier and fun to watch. House sparrows are rats with wings.

[@pixazelz]

Sadly they are the conséquences of Our own action and they doesn't deserve it the human does...

[@artgreen6915]

​@@pixazelz so you propose shooting some unknown humans (in many cases likely already passed on - and yes, obviously you don't actually), while that would leave the invasive species not dealt with at all? Typical 'animal lovers' way to avoid grappling with the real issue. In the UK the red squirrel has been pushed back to tiny areas. If it wasn't for the efforts against non-native grey squirrels around those areas the native red squirrel would already have ceased to exist in Britain with the possible exception of the Isle of Wight. Yet if you tried to tackle the grey squirrel across the country, 'animal lovers' would create a huge fuss despite professing their adoration for the cute red squirrel. These people do not square up to the realities of nature. If we want to defend regional diversity of species we have to clear up our mess and accept nature is partly a competitive 'dog eat dog' world, it is not a love-in, never was. Meanwhile in New Zealand they have a determined and huge trapping program to eliminate introduced animals. Because they recognised if they don't their unique bird species, already much reduced, will become extinct.

[@saiyanblood321]

for 3 years the red bellied has been making nests in the yard, he never got those nests, they are a nuisance especially compared to our native birds, i get that red bellied do make different nests every year but he should be able to atleast use one, even my blue birds cant use natural nests, i'll come out the very next day or hour and starlings will have them run off, dont even get me started on how much they eat, maybe if they were actually from here but all they do is be a nuisance, even my grandma doesnt like them

[@rovingwithnature]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZqQq4F_bNd-n9E

[@theotheseaeagle]

It’s worth mentioning that starlings and house sparrows are declining in their native range

[@tamooz6649]

Yeah I put up a feeder after a House Sparrow couple showed up and now theres like 30 of them or more plus some pigeons 😂. I dont see it as a large issue though since I still see other birds in the neighborhood and sometimed I'll get a House Finch or an Oak Titmouse on the feeder

[@pixazelz]

Hope governement Will have a a plan to reduce their population here because its a huge problem where I live

[@eelsoirdor3573]

Their population is also declining in their "invasive" range.

[@mc12358]

The Snowy Owl triggered a mild controversy in my home state a couple of winters ago when one showed up at one of our more popular wildlife refuges. Photographers were getting too close to the owl, and a lot of birders were understandably irate. Another thing regarding wildlife refuges that goes along with baiting is, don't feed the bears or any other animals for that matter. Another refuge has actually had to put up signs because tourists thought it was cool to feed wild bears 🤦 Finally on the topic of playback, I myself once got raked over the coals for using it on a neotropical warbler species that is common here but only in limited habitat. I know two very experienced wildlife biologists who have no problems blasting calls through a Bluetooth speaker when leading bird walks, and I don't see any harm with playing a call for five seconds if I'm not at a heavily birded place. But most of the time playback is unreliable and the bird is never guaranteed to land in a place where you can get a clear look at it, if it responds at all. So while I don't have any problems with using playback, I do so very conservatively, especially when I'm by myself and not trying to show a new bird to someone else.

[@LightYagami-xl1wz]

I use playback in much moderation. I usually don’t use it but I did use it once in the dusk and play an American woodcock call in order to confirm that’s what I was hearing in the morning. I got a response and that confirmed my thoughts. Other than that I don’t really use it.

[@johnpatton7597]

I remember seeing photos from Yellowstone of people on bleachers watching grizzly bears feeding at the NPS dump. At some point the park service realized that was not a good idea and removed the bleachers and moved the dump further away from the buildings. As for wildlife biologists using speakers to attract wildlife I was assigned by the newspaper to accompany a biologist working on a ruffed grouse project. He routinely used taped calls during the breeding season to attract males to a particular drumming log. When the male grouse was on the log a net was shot over the log to capture the bird for banding.

[@Salmiyaguy1]

Keeping feeders up when a disease is in the area such as house finch eye disease (Mycoplasmal conjunctivitis) or trichomonosis. killing squirrels to keep them away from feeders.

[@helenamcginty4920]

Before my retirement and change of residence I volunteered with the local parks department in NW England UK. The rangers attitude to birders was determined by the birders themselves. Disgust and anger at the local college photography student who climbed and damaged fencing round a small copse to get a close up of over wintering long eared owls. Bemused amusement at the keen folk who were at least as interested in logging their sightings in our record books as in the birds themselves and those who came at the end of one year and the start of the next to be able to log sightings even of common birds for each year. But mostly the pleasure of being able to introduce the average nature lover to the beauty of the different species of water fowl and other birds that lived in our parks and wild areas. But my favourite story is when a visitor asked where our 6 to 8 over wintering long eared owls spent their summers. A new junior ranger had looked the species up and read that they summered in Estonia. (A country in the Baltic region of Europe). But the senior ranger rather spoiled the idea when he named a town about 50 miles away that was a summer home to 6 or 8 long eared owls suspected to be the same group. 😅

[@thejdgoodwin]

I never count alien bird species on my lists. But that's a "me" thing. I don't care one way or the other if someone else counts them, or not. It's none of my business. If a bird or any other animal reacts to my presence by moving away, even by a single step, I'm too close. A person's ethics when it comes to wildlife are their own, and none of my business, except when they violate laws and/or regulations. At that point I contact authorities. I'm not an authority. I keep my mouth shut. Ivory-billed Woodpecker? Without testable and repeatable evidence for its existence I put it in the category of the Great Auk and the Carolina Parakeet. I personally never use playback, especially during breeding season. I do a pretty effective screech-owl call the old-fashioned way. As long as people are adhering to laws and regulations it's really none of my business. Other people can be the "Kevins/Karens" of birdwatching. Me? I'll just enjoy hiking, birding, and photography. Life's too short to get my knickers in a twist every time I see someone not behaving exactly how I would prefer.

[@anthonydrakefordshadow]

I have fallen in love with mourning doves, they are so beautiful ❤

[@anthonydrakefordshadow]

I believe that’s what they are. Their little gray heads and necks are so small and slender. Most sites say they have small black spots but the tail feathers of mine have blue, white and black horizontal stripes. The heads and necks are a perfect match though… are these mourning doves or am I mistaken?

[@anthonydrakefordshadow]

@badgerland birding

[@pixazelz]

​@@anthonydrakefordshadow if their call sound sad and they are kid of beige with reddish feets they are Indeed morning dove

[@colorado841]

I was hoping to see some flame wars happening between birders in the comments over these issues...unfortunately the comments seem to be very civil for the most part. :(

[@franzwaltenspuhl8892]

I agree with all the comments on outdoor cats being added. I made the mistake of bringing up bats, once. Man was I reamed, lol.

[@averycheesypotato]

Why are bats so taboo?

[@toddbennett7157]

??? Why is that??!

[@appalachiabrauchfrau]

no I'd love to know what the deal with bats is, do birders hate bats?? You can't leave us hanging man.

[@goldenoriolesilverbirch8220]

Birders are human. Every activity involving humans creates some controversy, birding is no exception. There are strongly opinionated people that cannot tolerate those with a different point of view. Most reasonable people recognise that some birding activities can be taken too far.

[@RoyceMarcus]

Good summary. Not hear to yuk anyones yum, but I always feel like those who get very entitled/elitist/high church about birding are kinda missing the point. There's always room for healthy discussion and debate in birding (it's actually super important for some topics). But some people are so locked and fixed in on their opinions or really lean on their "experience" as experts. Luckily where I am we have a fairly healthy community but, boy, I've heard some horror stories.

[@proto57]

We saw a case of "gatekeeping" when we heard about a Snowy Owl sitting in a school field one weekend. Two women were at the edge of the parking lot with their cameras set up... and for anyone approaching, they would say, "Thanks SO much for coming to see it!". They couldn't stop anyone else from seeing or photographing the owl, and didn't try to stop them. But they seemed to want to establish some sort of priority over the experience, like they were allowing us to participate, by making that statement to us. Like it was their owl, and we were viewing it through their implied permission. It was really annoying. I've bumped into many birders, and they are almost all really nice and friendly. But there are those few that have a superiority and arrogance about it, like the above woman. You know they really don't want others around, they think the world of birds if for them, with better knowledge, equipment and understanding. But there are those like that in ANY hobby... kayaking, bicycling, hiking, anything. The ones who think they alone have some right to the field, and wish everyone else would go away.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

Well said

[@KurtisPape]

I went out birding today and hit a bird on the drive back home ☹️ obviously it's out of my control but the fact a bird died for me to go birding sucks... hopefully I can rescue a bird one day in return.

[@terryg4415]

or, you could support local wildlife rehabilitators - they often are in need of support. I know, I cringe when any animal darts in front of me, and sigh with relief when I don't hear a thump or see a victim.

[@PeenWienerstien]

Gatekeeping is 100% ok and should actually be encouraged. Change my mind.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

You’re not allowed to see the Great Spotted Woodpecker in my backyard that I let everyone else see

[@abcdjkx]

Things that annoy me.. Photographers who don't know how to ID birds but care only about photos; photographers that move in front of other photographers to get closer to a bird; birders that rely on apps instead of developing actual skills; birders that do not bother to find their own patches but expect others to show them where to bird; academics who have inferior knowledge about birds but think they're superior because they have higher qualifications; non-birders who mention the concept of "migratory birds" and think it makes them sound knowledgable; bird-banders who think they are superior to birders; academic snobs who condescendingly regard normal birding as 'citizen science"; recreational anglers or boat-owners that disturb flocks of waterfowl; photographers who don't bother to count birds or contribute scientific data; photographers who keep the locations of birds secret even years after the fact; etc etc I could go on. It's endless.

[@RobGoulet]

Thanks for doing this video. I happen to love Purple Martins, want to provide housing for them etc but I have contemplated leaving purple martin groups over the amount of vitriol people give to anyone that doesn't kill Starlings or House Sparrows. I understand they are invasive, but it's also not their fault they were introduced to North America. I'm a nature and animal lover and I can't bring myself to kill another creature. I undrstand that others can and I don't comment against them doing what they believe is right but I've been called weak and lack courage, told I shouldn't even bother trying to house Martins if I can't kil invasive species, etc. I thought gently disuading them from nesting would be the way I would go... frequently removing nests, installing starling resistant entries, etc. But unless I'm killing them, I'm an A-Hole to these guys... It's good to know maybe I"m not the only one.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

Yeah, we’re the same way. I don’t think I could ever kill non-natives in my yard. Crazy people are that polarized about it.

[@173jaSon371]

Before fully understanding how invasive and prolific they were, I saved a week old starling that kept getting booted out of the nest and was out in the open freezing during a rainstorm. Obviously no rehab place will take one so I did the job myself lol, feeding it around the clock(til bed time) a mix of wet cat food and eggs, and bringing it insects. I eventually released it once it would eat live bugs in my bathroom and was flying nice and well, but who knows if it survived or not. When I let it go it did a bunch of rapid laps over my head then zoomed off haha. So nope, it's not just you!

[@BadgerlandBirding]

@@173jaSon371 that’s cool! Your local rehab center won’t take non-natives? Ours normally take any bird in

[@173jaSon371]

@@BadgerlandBirding Interesting, from what I remember(this was 11 yrs ago) they wouldn't or I def wouldn't have tried raising it!. Haha. Definitely a cool experience though. It'd land on my finger or shoulder and bathe in my master bathroom sink. I'd take it outside to practice flying sometimes and had to retrieve it from the trees at times when it could just flutter. I have old videos somewhere of it at 1-2 weeks old with an einstein-hairdo lmao.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

@@173jaSon371 haha that’s cool. Fun fact, Mozart had a pet Starling for a few years.

[@xen0bia]

I hadn't been involved with the birding community in a decade or more, but I recently heard a bird call I had never heard before and so I joined a facebook group to get some help identifying the bird. Another member of that same group was asking how to keep invasive species at bay from her feeders and I was utterly appaled by how incredibly poorly the person was being treated. This is an issue I've seen in cat groups or animal lovers groups on similar topics (feeding wild animals, letting cats roam freely, etc.) Some people love animals to a fault. They don't recognize that nature is not always love and sunshine, and often completely deny what they are doing might actually be harmful to other animals or the environment. I have a rather realistic and pragmatic understanding of nature, so emotional responses really isn't my thing. Fact: Invasive birds bully and chase away other birds, sometimes killing their youngs and stealing their nest. Fact: Outdoor cats, owned or feral, kill more than 4 billion small animals every year and is easily one of the worst invasive species on the planet (and I say that as the owner of 3 cats, btw). Fact: Feeding wild animals disturbs their normal feeding habits, make them less scared of humans (not all of which are kind), making them potentially more aggressive to get food, and considering they may be carying diseases, that's not a good thing. While I do not wish for any species to be culled, I think we should at the very least strive to limit the damage of invasive species and human activity. To me, this seems to be the most rational course of action, but according to some, that's crazy talk... /shrug

[@BadgerlandBirding]

This was a very well thought out comment. Thank you for your input

[@StaraptorEagle]

I had a baby starling as a pet. I grew quite attached to him. I would’ve been distraught if someone told me to kill him. He flew away though… I pray that he’s safe. He was so comical and funny, and he’d fly to me when I called his name. I miss Mukudori. :(

[@StaraptorEagle]

And I also saved a young House Sparrow from a Blue Jay one time. Poor little gal was so stunned and scared. Even if I didn’t get to see her for very long, I still loved her. She was so cute. I’d do again if I could.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

I’ve heard Starlings make great pets!

[@damyilut3377]

Didn't know house sparrows and Starlings were invasive in the US! I see them all the time here(England), and Starlings are one of my favourites.

[@jenw5056]

Living in the US you can hear a lot of negative things about starlings. My own negative view of them softened recently when I learned about their skills in mimicry. It’s not their fault their ancestors were purposely released here. In some parts of this country though their populations are vast and they can do a lot of damage to crops and competition with native species. They sure are beautiful birds though.

[@missharry5727]

Let's do a deal on invasive species. We'll take back the starlings and house sparrows if you take the Canada geese and grey squirrels. Europe did manage to get rid of the ruddy ducks which were threatening our native white-headed ducks, but we still seem to have wood ducks here and there.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

@@missharry5727 You can actually hold on to those but we'll send you a box of House Sparrows

[@terryg4415]

@@missharry5727 Then there's the mute swans, imported to the US for estates to have them grace their ponds, I guess. Now they out-compete native ducks and geese. Not their fault humans rarely think about unintended consequences.

[@andrewlbirch]

Great topic! I still find birders on both sides of the "Outdoor Cats" debate (which personally baffles me). I also think there is still controversy or a lack of general agreement about wind turbines. I hear a lot of all or nothing arguments on both sides of all these topics. This video was a great example of a thoughtful considerate approach to complex arguments.

[@tonybezanson9625]

Another good one is the mention of outdoor cats. It's garunteed to start a debate

[@Outdooracademe]

Anything in the outdoors has become an obsession. These people don't have an actual affinity for nature, it's all about competition.

[@tomjanowski8584]

How is a photographer any different than a birder with binoculars? What's the difference between getting the perfect photo and staring with binoculars? I'm a photographer and lover of birds. What I'm not is a bird paparazzi....I take my shot and move on. I don't sit for hours like many birders or photographers.

[@festerbestertester1658]

There are two ways to do birding or wildlife photography. One, you can wander around and just shoot what you find, or two, you can sit very still and wait for it to come to you. Niether's right or wrong, both have their pros and cons. I don't think birders like photographers making all the noise and trying to move in for a closer shot and scaring the birds away.

[@Methodical2]

I don't like being called a birder. I am a Bird Photographer.

[@festerbestertester1658]

@@Methodical2 I don't know why, but my friends used to mock me when I would say that. But just going out and looking at birds doesn't really do anything for me, especially when they are just common birds that we see everyday around here. But that's what my friends seem to like to do. For me, I'm trying to get the best pictures I can. It doesn't even have to be a bird. I just like taking pictures of things I find interesting.

[@Methodical2]

@@festerbestertester1658 Agree. just looking at birds does nothing for me. Tell them anyone can just look at birds but it's more challenging to photograph them. If there's no photo it didn't happen. The challenge of getting a great shot keeps me going. Plus, I am a nature boy and love being one with nature.

[@paulwhite9242]

I'd be a lot more invested in eradicating house sparrows and starlings if I thought there was a chance at all. But I don't think there is.

[@Teeb2023]

We'll do a trade; your sparrows and starlings for all the grey squirrels that swam all the way from your east coast to here the UK. 😉

[@paulwhite9242]

@@Teeb2023 I'm down! So long as I can make a lot of squirrel fritters

[@Teeb2023]

@@paulwhite9242 Deal.

[@rainerfrey]

I agree - you won't get house sparrows and starlings out of North America again - that ship sailed more than a century ago

[@myragroenewegen5426]

I find it funny that discussion of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker is so heated. If the believers get their way, more bird habitat is protected. What can we possibly lose by smiling and nodding, even if we don't buy the idea? If people invest great money in going after a possible ghost bird, surely they know what their doing and can't claim they're being swindled.

[@coreytohme9861]

I'm no birder, but I live near one of their last known areas so I am somewhat familiar with them and they definitely intrigue me. Here's how I see almost every argument start. One person believes that there has not been a confirmed sighting of the bird in decades and the scientific community believes the bird to be extinct. Another person comes along and claims that not only have they seen the supposedly extinct bird, but they "see them all the time." The two experiences almost couldn't be farther from one another. How can one person claim to have multiple sightings but yet no one else has had a confirmed sighting. The stories just don't match. Then there's this bird that, for the uneducated, is nearly identical which adds to the controversy. When people have views/experience that are so far apart from one another, it's hard to find any common ground and each person refuses to understand or believe the other. I have seen someone argue vehemently that they "see them all the time" but when I looked up their location, they lived in a suburban area. Part of the reason that the Ivory Billed Woodpecker went extinct is the reduction of large tracts of old growth forest and yet this lady claimed to see a bunch of them basically in an area devoid of any "old" timber. Claims like this don't help those that claim that the bird is still alive and well.

[@threadscore]

I'm guilty of 3 of these "taboos" (bating, caller/playback and gatekeeping). Though, to be fair, I only engaged in them because I was working for the Forest Service at the time and it was part of our protocol.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

You get a free pass lol

[@lostsierraforrest5542]

I've been into bird photography strictly as a hobby since retirement back in 2016. I set myself some rules: Do Not Disturb. Wait, what? That's only one. Right. All others follow from that. What I mean is I try to be as minimally intrusive into bird habitat as I can, and this includes when in urban birding landscapes. I never bait or do playback; if I can't photograph a bird in as natural a condition as possible then I don't want the shot. What I really enjoy doing is taking a small folding field chair with me, which fits into my backpack easily, and then pick a spot and just sit and wait and let the birds come to me, if they will. If they don't, I know there's always tomorrow. Be gentle on the land and the land will be gentle to you.

[@sylvainmathieu3887]

I'm also thinking like that. I comment here because your post reminded me of a situation when I was watching shorebirds in migration. I was just standing there, not moving and some of the birds came so close to me, I had some at my feet!!! There was no use of binoculars, you can guess :) By not chasing birds and respecting the environment, my life has been so well filled with amazing opportunities to look at birds from very close.

[@randomnickify]

Oh wow, I would not expect a short video about birds will make me lose hope for humanity 😢

[@BadgerlandBirding]

You lost hope for humanity because of a video about people’s differing opinions about birding?

[@randomnickify]

@@BadgerlandBirding No, people behaving like a selfish asses. Half of those things are obviously bad for birds, its not matter of opinion.

[@roncadillac3987]

I do passive sound ID by using Merlin app on my phone. It is great to use in new territory. I am in Switzerland now and Merlin automatically downloaded 22 MB of bird song when I opened app in Zurich. I do use bird calls occasionally, but do this out of nesting season. Thanks for the video!

[@SouthCountyGal]

I also use Merlin sound ID, as I don't have good distance vision and have always relied on identifying the birds around me by their calls. Outdoors, I don't put it on speaker when playing calls on my phone to confirm what I'm hearing. I do play them on speaker indoors sometimes to spook my cats.

[@ViburaBlanca]

I live in Texas but my Merlin app didn’t work in Switzerland, it did in Italy though

[@kerriann04]

Crazy. We feed migrating birds on our private property every winter, and while we mostly see the same visitors every year, we seem to get a new species every couple of years. It's beautiful and my kids have loved growing up watching them visit. We keep it to ourselves, though, and simply enjoy the view from a distance.

[@77TOWERS]

Awesome awesome video as always, sorry to bring this up , but exclusion is still very much present, I'm Hispanic and still get funny looks, don't get me wrong I have met amazing people in the time I've been birding.

[@BPaparazzi]

We all love you

[@Adasaur250]

Fortunately there's events like Black Birders Week to help at least illuminate, if not alleviate, the problem.

[@quixote5844]

@@Adasaur250 Cant wait till that is no longer necessary. People say”I don’t see color”I say, “I don’t see ENOUGH color”. - Old white guy.

[@llofdarkwater9152]

@@quixote5844 - I LOVE your response and will use it! Old White Lady

[@CervineSkol]

i work full time with lots of responsibilities at home so I only get to go bird watching a few times a year, I wouldnt say im a huge birder, I have a cheap lil pair of binoculars and don't really go for long or with anyone, just a quite stroll through the woods and looking at birds, I would rather not be in a group

[@bluemystic7501]

I just put up my first blue bird box last week. I'm excited to get into all the drama of the hobby!

[@nautilus2612]

It might be a bit late now, birds usually nest in cavities they discovered during the winter. Still, good luck with your nestbox

[@bluemystic7501]

@@nautilus2612 Thanks! I've got a pair in there right now.

[@appalachiabrauchfrau]

we tend to get bluebirds flying into the chimneys of our wood stoves, maybe set up a dummy one if you want tons of them haha

[@MotoHikes]

As a bird watcher, it does annoy me when photographers hog a hide for hours without consideration to anyone else who wants to enjoy nature.

[@aggravatedHart]

People are not entitled to know what you know. And they sure af don’t have a right to go on someone else’s property if the property owner doesn’t want them there. Doesn’t matter the reason.

[@bradsillasen1972]

Very well done! Some people take birding way too seriously, not that there aren't some serious ethical issues to be respected.

[@nathanlucas2257]

There was a recent controversy in one of my birding groups where there was a rare-ish owl that folks were trying to see. Around the same time and location, some branches were cut off a tree and it was perceived that someone did this in order to get a better look at the owl. After hundreds of comments, it was determined that the branches were cut by parks department employees, and it had nothing to do with the owl. I commented that, considering it was an Amur Honeysuckle, the only tragedy was that it wasn't cut to the ground, because it is considered an invasive species in Indiana. Someone followed up with a "Your missing the point." post. To which I replied "The point is moot, since it had nothing to do with seeing the owl in the first place." I was promptly and unceremoniously kicked out of the group. So I guess the person in hysterics about it was one of the admins. No warning, no probation period, just kicked out. So now I guess I'm somewhat OK with "gatekeeping", because I'll be damned if I'm going to share the interesting birds I find with them.

[@pauraque]

Eponyms are pretty controversial. I'm down for renaming them tho. Wilson's Phalarope could be named something cool like Painted Phalarope and thats just so sick!!!

[@ericconnor8419]

All my life I have watched and cared for birds. I have a landscaping company that specialises in creating wildflower meadows and habitats for song birds. I have always been mystified by most 'birdwatchers' they seem more like train spotters than people who actually love wildlife. I can sit and watch a sparrow for hours I don't need to trample my way through a forest to try and get a blurry photo of a greater crested grebe or whatever to tick off a list. I can get better pictures on the internet.

[@L1V2P9]

Like all hobbies, extremists ruin it for everyone else, hierarchies develop, and controversies abound. I once tried to get my wife interested and we went to a swampy area frequented by birders and there was a small group of birders standing on the pier when a few Canada Geese floated by. Immediately one of the women declared that one of them was a Cackling Goose (I think that it's a subspecies) and the man beside her disagreed and a loud insulting argument broke out. We left immediately because we feared the event would lead to violence. Hobbies are supposed to be pleasant and shouldn't be the center of one's life. I only bird on my own, and now only occasionally.

[@donnagelina8548]

My goodness, I do all sorts of things by myself for just this reason. If I meet an acquaintance along the way that's great, but otherwise, I like to stay by myself to concentrate on what I'm doing. I use KZbin and Google to educate myself about everything.

[@annaolson4828]

Frankly, I mostly use playback to get a reaction out of my indoor cat.

[@jmarylastone]

"are there any other controversial topics we didn't mention - let us know in the comments below" === YES! when a person insists THEIR way is the ONLY way - I am on the fence on all the issues you brought up lol (except the ivory bill ... I think he is out there lol)

[@RobertGotschall]

I know groups that discourage taking pictures of nesting birds, as this may disturb them and endanger the chicks. Not giving away the location of nesting raptors is common to prevent the activities of egg collectors. Do not bring up domestic cats. The Ivory Billed Woodpecker is the Sasquatch of birding. Properly obscure clothing while birding can be an issue. I NEED a Panasonic LUMIX FZ80.

[@BPaparazzi]

Great video. Another topic is people following you on social media with the sole intent of using you to find the location of certain birds. In my opinion, the fun part of this hobby is doing the research and the challenge of locating the birds on our own. Don't get me wrong, I will go see a rare bird if someone publicly shares where they saw it but I'd actually rather find it without prior knowledge. And as for the owls, I'm pretty much a gatekeeper.

[@stevenwilliams6418]

Agree. Another issue is photographers who shadow me from a distance in the field because I have some skill at locating owls and other sensitive species. Before I pick up my camera or binoculars I often have to look over my shoulder. I usually will not post my owl shots on Social Media unless it is migratory bird and then I only post after it has moved on. In my neck of the woods situations around shared owl locations quickly descends into a mob of paparazzi minded photographers who will do anything to get a better shot. Many will visit day after day. From sun up to sun down. Encroaching, baiting, and purposely flushing nesting and roosting birds to get a shot. They have absolutely no consideration for the well being of the birds.

[@BPaparazzi]

@@stevenwilliams6418 Wow, that's crazy.

[@Methodical2]

This is why I go out very early in the morning while most are still sleeping. When they do come out, I am headed the opposite direction...out. Also, I try to visit places where there are not a lot of 2-legged animals.

[@dianneturner4874]

It's an interesting topic. I love birds and have participated in bird counting etc but i couldn't get too over the top. I let birds be and do their own thing. I make my yard attractive to native birds by planting native trees. If they come great! I want my yard to be like a piece of bushland and eco system. I never feed birds but do leave out birdbaths for drinking water. Like all hobbies I guess, there are some people who are too zealous! As another commenter has said there should be some kind of etiquette outlined, especially for bird photographers.

[@appalachiabrauchfrau]

We set up a bunch of native fruit tree guilds with insect hotels near each one and were rewarded with a tanager deciding our place was home. We've been reforesting our acreage and seeing bluebirds, red winged blackbirds, eastern towhees, downy woodpeckers and my first northern flicker has been exciting. I'm no birder or photographer, but I am an artist and birds are always a fun thing to get down in watercolor. Casual bird photogs would barely have to leave home if they'd plant a fruit tree or two in their yard :)

[@graphite2786]

I'm probably going to get hammered by folk but I'm a gatekeeper! We have a lovely untouched property with several threatened species, both resident and migratory. Some of these birds are so comfortable around us they'll perch on the veranda furniture or hunt for spiders under the eaves. I enjoy photographing our bird friends and had a thriving IG account with lots of bird ( and nature ) pics. And so many DMs asking where they were photographed. We DID allow some people to come visit, but we vetted them. If it was an renowned photographer, birder club or cashed up birder, we stayed silent. But if it were a kid or newbie birder with limited resources, then we'd swear them to secrecy and invite them over! Seeing the smiles of kids as they observed rare birds is priceless and hopefully will encourage them to take an active interest in protecting the environment in the future. We did allow a birder group over once but they told other birders and we started having strangers tromp thru our property. Never Again! Up went the "No trespassing" signs and we had to re fence the boundary closest to the road.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

It’s your yard! You can do whatever you want with it! Too bad people showed up without permission though. I don’t know why some people can’t just respect property lines.

[@spinkscapes775]

The no. 1 debate that seems to be going on in Australian birding atm is whether it is ethical to photograph the nests of birds. Many Facebook pages have outright banned any photographs of nests.

[@TillyOrifice]

A few years ago a pair of Willy Wagtails picked a tree in my back garden to raise their chicks. I took a whole lot of photos. The birds didn't look worried and they successfully raised three chicks, but it slightly worries me that they never came back in subsequent years. I still don't know if I disturbed them or not, but if it happened again I think I'd give them more space.

[@Methodical2]

Did birder watchers go and watch the nest?

[@TillyOrifice]

@@Methodical2 No

[@Methodical2]

@@TillyOrifice How do they know?

[@TillyOrifice]

@@Methodical2 How do who know what?

[@gabrielford3473]

Human behavior should have as little effect on wildlife as possible and no exceptions are acceptable.

[@dansteelman5620]

bringing dogs into a nature reserve

[@pixazelz]

What about service dog ?

[@personguy6649]

2 seconds ago I loved house sparrows but now that I know they're invasive I hate them

[@randomconsumer4494]

I'm gonna just keep my opinion to myself. I will say, house sparrows are flying mice. Everyone have a great day.

[@pixazelz]

Sadly they Killed a pair of swallow and baby cardinal in my back yard last year 😢

[@financial_ornithologist]

The funny thing is from my perspective the issue of gatekeeping is actually simple: literal gatekeeping is 100 legitimate but figurative gatekeeping is just not right. Enjoy nature but dont harass anyone be they bird, human or other animal.

[@Sarappreciates]

My friend is currently watching a bald eagle nest. The eagle nest at our local dog park prompted authorities to put up a sign warning people to - not sure how - use extra precautions for their small dogs. It's a mated pair of eagles with hatchlings from the looks of it. I'm just gonna say it: Keep your little dogs outta that park.

[@rholeo617BC2]

Nice video Badgerland! The one that touches me the most is your second topic: ethics. In my experience, the superiority of a birders optics tends to be proportional to how much space they feel a species needs.

[@BadgerlandBirding]

Like the bigger the lens the more space they give or the less space?

[@rholeo617BC2]

@@BadgerlandBirding The bigger their lens the more space they give... But more importantly, the more space they proclaim the bird needs (now that they have a bigger lens 😆), and that other birders are "much too close". Kinda combines with the "gatekeeping" debate that you raise in the video.

[@BenSlover1]

What about the dark side of backyard birding ? The wildly popular hobby isn't without it's controversies, either. Feeder-driven epizootic diseases and pathogens including avian salmonellosis have been well documented for decades now through extensive scientific study. Many of these diseases like avian salmonellosis can also easily spread from bird to bird like wildfire and pose a year-round health threat to garden birds. Backyard birding is a hobby that most that do participate in it, do so mindlessly. Please name another wild creature we nurse along like is done with supplemental feeding of wild birds. There isn't one.

[@JesusRocksTryPrayin]

when I go birding, I usually get up SUPER early and put up sticky fly-paper on the trees. I get the really expensive shit, then i go wander around and smoke a bit when I get back, every manner of bird has landed on the fly trap. Then the dissections begin

[@inspector4133]

I've heard some spirited discussions about eBird and it's influence in birders and birding. It's worth, it's gatekeeping, people who try to inflate their numbers. I've been birding for fifty+ years, and it seems that sometimes the only thing that two birders can agree on, is what the third one is doing wrong.

[@peeet]

Well done presenting a video on controversial subjects (hopefully) without raising controversy.

[@samTollefson]

As to Gatekeeping, if it is my property, it is solely my right to choose who can or cannot come onto my property regardless of the reason why. How can that be controversial?

[@Methodical2]

I was wandering the same thing. How/why did that get on the list.

[@samTollefson]

@@Methodical2 I think they were mostly referring to people trying to block others from open or public lands and I can kind of see their point, however, if I find gold in a stream, do you think I am going to publicize that so that the masses will all convert on the site and "scare" my gold away? I don't think it's wrong to keep a secret, but blocking a public road to keep others away is a whole other story.

[@Methodical2]

@@samTollefson I sure hope that is what he meant.

[@iKeto_gal]

@@Methodical2 It is what he meant if you listen closely

[@quinn799]

Me, observing my pet birds from one inch away: This is excellent