Beyond Sex Work

[@BadMouseProductions]

I largely still agree with this one, although I will say I feel a bit eughh about it because it comes across a bit like: 'White dude talks about sex workers etc' which wasn't my intention. Support Sex Workers people.

[@TimCools_WithALongO]

I don't know if you've read it since you first made this vid, but I cannot recommend _Revolting Prostitutes: The Fight for Sex Workers' Rights_ by Molly Smith & Juno Mac enough. Written by two (UK) sex workers, it approaches the topic of sex work from an explicitly Marxist feminist perspective and addresses cases across the world.

[@sleepinbelle9627]

Having written and deleted 2 multiple-paragraph comments and rewatched the video 3 or 4 times trying to put my finger on what about it made me wince, I think I've figured it out. The video feels paternalistic in a way that denies the agency of sex workers (and in the case of this video, you seem to primarily be refering to female sex workers, which gives it an uncomfortable patriarchal character). When discussing the liberation of any group the thing that matters most is the agency of that group. It's up to sex workers to determine their preferred solutions to the problems they face, it's up to the rest of us to facilitate those solutions. In the same way that it shouldn't be up to cis people to dictate the terms of trans liberation, it isn't up to us as non-sex workers to say what sex workers need, or dictate how sex work will evolve. Self-determination needs to be core to all leftist movements or we're going to end up recreating the oppressive structures that we aim to dismantle. (to be clear I don't mean any of this as an attack on anyone, I'm just trying to articulate why this video made me feel the way it did. It might legitimately just be a lack of clarity in the script, but it seemed worth saying because, based on the comments, I'm not the only one this felt off to).

[@andreasanders7322]

​@@sleepinbelle9627 I hate this argument. The video is nuanced enough to grant that we cannot alleviate the pressure that forces people into sex work by applying even more pressure to them. By the same logic, you should admit that without giving them any material means to actually free themselves from this same force, simply referring to sex workers agency is individualistic nonsense that does nothing but enforce the status quo.

[@RaunienTheFirst]

There should be a universal maxim for leftists "support the workers, dismantle the work"

[@mayamorena334]

But why...is this mostly used against sex workers? Other people's labor as viewed as necessary and good... why isn't ours?

[@conorclements5381]

@@mayamorena334 do you honestly think that sex work is the *only* work that gets portrayed as unnecessary by marxists?

[@mayamorena334]

@@conorclements5381 I've read the book bullshit jobs. And I've worked other jobs. Retail and sales are mostly made up of unnecessary and soul crushing labor. Many couples use porn to get horny enough to fuck each other as foreplay. To get ideas etc. Almost everyone consumes our labor and steals from us. People lose their virginity to sex workers, we have clients with sexual issues, or partners who aren't sexual and they agree they can see a professional, people with cancer, near death, with social anxiety, identity crisis, sex is a universal human social experience similar to getting food together. People open up, conversations happen in a more honest way, relationships form. Saying sex work isn't necessary is akin to saying music, dancing, art, and poetry are unnecessary work. It also ignores that many people mostly femmes, perform sexual labor, emotional labor for free and devalued labor without the same compensation in return. Our labor makes life worth living.

[@avasmith1846]

@@mayamorena334 Pornography/escort services, etc under advanced socialism would not count as what we think of as sex "work" because you would not be paid, and you would not be working for anyone. It would likely not be your "job" in the same way that music (as a musician) would not be my "job." Yeah, you could get a team together, and post some pornographic videos on the internet. You could also choose to fulfill other people's sexual desires in exchange for another service or something they had, or just for the purposes of giving someone company. But it would simply be an action that you chose to take for your own fulfillment and for the fulfillment of others, economically no different from a lover sharing nude photos to their partner, or two people deciding to share physical intimacy. Because typically, for most aspects of "sex work," the exchange of money is the *only thing* which sets it apart from just plain old sex-related activities.

[@ew_barf]

i think the idea that men are owed sex plays a factor in prostitution. like you said “you will never get rid of sex work under capitalism” i would also add “under patriarchy”.

[@EspectrosdeMarx]

i was in cuba 4 years ago, i agreed to visit an "antro" (night place to dance and drink), i dont really like to dance so i was there getting some drinks at the bar and "jineteras" (term used to prostitutes who provide services only for turist) keep approaching me from time to time, as i keep refusing them i started to wonder how their work was, so i approach one and ask her to drink a beer with me in exchange for a few bucks, she agreed and we started to talk, after a few minutes she was telling me about the "vip" area where the wealthy "gringos" and politicians get their sexual services, a spanish politician was her favorite client cause he goes there once every two months and pays her for two full days. Anyway, my point was that the same people (the burguesie and their politicians) who create the unfair conditions that carry so many people to take jobs they rather dont have are the same who take advantage. *Great video Mr. Mouse

[@EspectrosdeMarx]

(And sorry for my broken english, not my main language)

[@riflebusters1]

@@EspectrosdeMarx your English is great, it's Bourgeoisie(which is a French word) Have a nice day/night

[@breadbread4226]

@@EspectrosdeMarx Your English is good

[@bruhb7611]

So in order to actually destroy sex work as a whole, global socialism must be achieved?

[@pedroct6640]

Who was the politician?

[@dialecticalveganegoist1721]

Superstructure ⬆️⬇️ Material conditions

[@TheSleepyowlet]

I think under communism sex-work will be similar to therapy or nursing. I talked to sex-workers about this, and they see their work as caritative first and foremost - and I agree. Most issues the sex industry has today are labour issues solvable by supportive legislation and unionisation. Coal mining was shit, and then unions were created and labour conditions improved. There is no reason something similar would not be possible for sex-workers. So yeah, sex work would still exist, but the people doing it would be different - those that today don't really want to do it would not any more, and those that would today but aren't because of negative social stigma and the bad labour conditions would. The sex workers I talked to all said that the sex itself is only a small part of what they actually do - the main part is to show compassion and to give people physical intimacy who can't get it otherwise. It's a valid contribution to the wellbeing of society, just like any other craft. One example: I know a sex-worker who is over sixty. Her speciality is older gentlemen who are widowed or whose wives, due to dementia, can't consent any more. She put it like this, "I save those marriages. The husbands have needs their wives can no longer fulfil, so they come to me instead of looking for a new partner. With me, they can relax and be happy for a bit and then they return to their wives to be loving husbands who take care of them." And people who are afraid of sex-workers being empowered fear, more often than not, _that they can't coerce people into having sex with them any more._ They fear the right of a sex-worker to say "no". But I think they should have that right unconditionally. Just like they should have the right to say "yes".

[@therat1117]

Well at least someone can actually see the nuance of the subject on the internet for once. Usually this devolves into more of a shouting match. Bravo!

[@therat1117]

That said, I think we should confine ourselves for the moment, in the now. Whether sex work is 'right' or not is irrelevant. As far as what we should do about it in the capitalism of the now, provide safety to sex workers and ability to get themselves alternate work as desired, to the degree that we possibly can.

[@seeibe]

Yeah. Sex work is not the problem. Being forced into it by outside circumstances is.

[@therat1117]

@@seeibe Exactly this.

[@EpicPornBot420-69]

ollie from philosophytube also made a very nuanced vid on it as well!

[@therat1117]

@@EpicPornBot420-69 I'm sure he did. It's nice Badmouse is doing it though since Ollie isn't a communist afaik.

[@duophile7692]

I was the Twitter account who posted that statement at 7:37 about one year ago. After leaving the clique I was a part of, I've since changed my views for the better. This video opened my mind to a more clearheaded way of understanding this situation, and I agree with pretty much everything said in the video. The amount of nuance in this video is enlightening. Thank you, BadMouse.

[@robsyko7783]

Even sex positivity can’t consolidate the commodification of people with an escape from capitalism.

[@chudpunter]

This is solid. I don't think there's a good basis for criminalizing or attempting to otherwise stamp out sex work under capitalism. Aside from impossible, it harms the sex workers most of all, and that's just completely unacceptable. But, under socialism, I'd like to build a society where sex work remained legal, but was completely unnecessary as an economic survival strategy. If people still want to do it at that point, then it's either because they really do find it enjoyable or empowering, or they're just seeking some disposable income on the side. Either way, the economic coercion that exists under capitalism would no longer apply.

[@nukiradio]

In a perfect world, I would go for a country against prostitution, but in our world, the solution to prostitution is just "shoot all the hookers" which changes my position

[@mayamorena334]

But... why are sex workers singled out for this? Why is our labor considered unnecessary and something that can be reduced or eliminated? I can't help but think that this is because we view femme labor as something that is a valueless for society

[@mayamorena334]

@bbonner422 A lot of sex workers I know enter the industry because of disability and some sex workers don't have the traditional ideas of sex with their clients. I just feel wired with this idea... That sex workers should only do it because they like to have sex and that their numbers need to be reduced in some fashion. The truth is if we gave everyone basic needs... The very concept of having to work in general (not just sex work) would be under question but for some reason the ones that get persecuted and signaled out in this way are sex workers.

[@chudpunter]

@@mayamorena334 I never said it should be "eliminated". I never even said "reduced". I said that I want everyone's material needs met. I think it's likely that fewer people would choose sex work under those circumstances, but that's an empirical prediction, not a goal. And I'm not "singling" sex work out either. Not sure what your political leanings are, but I'm a communist. I consider ALL labor under capitalism to be coercive, and most of it exploited. Exactly how coercive any particular form of labor can be considered to be relative to others is debatable. Though when many (no, not all, many) of the people doing sex work have few other options to support themselves, I think that indicates a fairly high degree of coercion.

[@mayamorena334]

@@chudpunter Those "few other options" are other forms of labor which are worse. Like you can literally fight for universal housing, health care, and education and not talk shit about our industry and our jobs. This focus on why workers make the decisions that they do is actually kind of a worthless topic, and It's usually applied toward marginalized people, like drug users, immigrants, sex workers, and homeless people.

[@madoxb9555]

Another good example of prostitution rates would be South Vietnam during the Vietnam war. People from the villages fled to cities for safety. This massive influx of people led to poor resources available, which was doubled by how U.S. troops would accidentally destroy farmland. There was also little money to go around as the South Vietnamese government had to fund the war, and as well buy food from the United States, despite the United States being the ones causing the food shortages. The overpopulated cities with few resources and fewer jobs served as causation for crime waves, growing to a point where drug dealers were earning more money than police men. Prostitution was also a valuable business as U.S. troops created demand for the service. Ironically, there almost seems to be a correlation between prostitution rates in a country and U.S. involvement.

[@Mexie]

great vid. of course we should support all workers and protect their rights, and of course everyone should have absolute freedom to engage in whatever work they like, but to not be able to talk critically about sex work under capitalism, it's brutal history and the exploitative power relations involved in many cases is really not great. (not saying it's always exploitative, I know sex workers who are empowered through their work, but my colleague works with sex workers in a nearby town and sadly most are not there of their own volition but because they have no other choice, and they are dealing with a whole whack of shit).

[@jamesjohnson2394]

I just don't understand how they can be empowered...

[@thomasdevine867]

To me the most important thing is destigmatizing sex work. Removing the stigma would radically reduce burden on sex workers. Those who get into sex work from desperation would have the minimum barriers to leaving for better work. For those who want to be sex workers getting rid of the stigma would be a simple matter of human dignity.

[@RextheRebel]

Incorrect. You want decent humans? Oppose sex work.

[@thomasdevine867]

@@RextheRebel Your "solution" leaves the Sex Workers traped in Sex Work. If you oppose Sex Work you need to give the Sex Workers a means to leave Sex Work. Just outlawing Sex Work makes the Sex Workers far more vulnerable and subject to violence while locking them into Sex Work.

[@RextheRebel]

@@thomasdevine867 two things. 1. Did she choose to go into sex work because it was a get money quick scheme or was she trafficked into it? 2. I stated before that I don't necessarily wish it to be illegal but that it should be discouraged culturally and disapproved of. And what do you mean by "give them the means to leave sex work"? If they aren't forced into they have the means. It's called walking away. However, once a sex worker, always a sex worker. I'd rather they remain stuck in it because that's all they will ever be good for. And that was their decision. I have zero sympathy for them.

[@thomasdevine867]

@@RextheRebel Many of these Sex Workers got in because they were broke and fleeing abusive homes. The correlation between violent abuse and Sex Work is scary high. Just because a young person wasn't trafficked doesn't mean they had anything like a choice. We need to understand that many Sex Workers are trapped in ways we don't necessarily see or understand. We're in a relatively privileged place (and as an elderly working class Gay Man with Asperger's that's saying a lot). They lack the resources to survive without their one means of employment. They are also often hunted by pimps and similar figures. Many pimps use drugs to "control their girls." Walking away won't cut it. They need allies and understanding. Destigmatizing Sex Work is only a first step. And it will be a long road indeed.

[@RextheRebel]

@@thomasdevine867 newsflash. Men can't sell their bodies to save their skin. They actually have to get jobs for a living. "Oh they wouldn't be able to survive otherwise" is bullshit. They can get a real job like the rest of us. I'm autistic too. I don't use that as an excuse to commit crimes to get quick money. I have no desire to distigmatize sex work. The truth is, these women like to do it. They like the money and the attention. I've met them. I've spoken to them. It's clear your haven't.

[@don_chanGD]

100 million is a big number

[@mrmtn37]

Anarchists in the North of Spain during the Spanish Civil War. People, mainly women as most able men were "Soldiering", went to the known Brothels, etc., and offered Medical Services, Education, Housing, basically describing just what Anarchism is. In 9 months 96% had found other work, brought families back together, were in school, became support for the military by whatever alternative skill they possessed. Anarchism works once it gains momentum and people gain true freedom, at the same time suffering through the growing pains.

[@Jim89M]

In Sin City prostitutes had guns and no pimps to exploit them..

[@sket4ket47]

Coerced sex is always rape whether you offer money, food, water, shelter etc.

[@Skymeagle]

Thank you! I had always found it very surprising for leftists to actually forget the reality of the workers in this subject: sex work is most of the times forced, and forced sex work is even uglier than the other work relationships as it violates your own body and intimacy. We need to get rid of it but getting rid of poverty.

[@RextheRebel]

No. I will defend it from a legal position I suppose. But from a moral and functional perspective? I will never get on board with the approval and encouragement of sex work.

[@tigerstyle4505]

One of the main issues I take with the vast majority of online "Leftists™" is their lack of an axiomatic approach or fundamental underpinning of the the most basic reasons for advocating what they do. It is everywhere, ML/M's, anarchists, SocDems (especially liberals who seek SocDem policies), whatever, there's a chunk (I'm obviously not saying all) in every tendency I've come across and seems true of the right, "center" and anti-ideology ideologues. I see a lotta people falling into social groups then adopting the dominant ideological lense of that group as their identity and clinging to it blindly, dogmatically and semi-religiously, regardless of the evidence, or they jump on the first thing they bother reading and cling to that in the same way while ignoring any and all critiques that may undermine it no matter how valid. That and the rest who are informed by memes and 101 or intro vids on YT and just regurgitate whatever they hear others say and try to hold all the "right" positions instead of being correct or honest. That is one of the main reasons things like this get so incredibly muddy and divisive. None of us have it all figured out and anybody claiming to have the perfect analysis, perfect understanding, perfect analysis, perfect critique and perfect program is either a liar, a fool, or both. I tend to start with the demonstrable elements of humanity as much is possible, such as us being social creatures that share much in common but are also unique enough in our development, needs and desires to benefit greatly from autonomy and self-management from a young age while obviously being best suited to reach our potential, be more critical and fulfilled when survival isn't our only mode of existence most every moment of most every day from childhood to the dirt as well as we aren't subject to brutality, exploitation, domination, alienation, a compulsory program to follow strictly, etc. I don't fetishise democracy, social equality, freedom, socialism, etc, for the sake of those things but because I think that it is the best way to achieve the end of human liberation, building a society that reconciles the collective and the individual where all share a common interest (unlike socially or politically stratified society) so simply pursuing ones desires may benefit all and an injury to one is an injury to all, forging a population that is better equipped to be responsible and careful in how they govern themselves, treat the planet, environment and non-human life because they recognize that our wellbeing is all woven together and creating cultures that value concepts like freedom and autonomy, social/political equality, solidarity, peace, justice (for a lack of a better word), security, dignity, etc, and feel a kinship and responsibility to the people and world around them. But it all stems from a total liberation of humanity, the ecosystems because it seems to provide the most sustainable existence for the most fulfilled life where capitalism, stratification and breaking up of the social, political, economic and personal are not only a myth but one that perpetuates incredible suffering and devastation. With all that said, I oppose the compulsory selling or renting of humans be it in chattle slavery or the coercive threat of destitution. But I have no issue with people voluntarily engaging in whatever labor they find meaningful, enjoyable or fulfilling assuming it is harmless. So as far as sex work goes, as with most things, I take a short-term (largely solidarity, harm reduction, and opportunity/programs to help those who want out a way out) and long-term approach that after the abolishion of currency it's not really work anymore but labor or leisure performed voluntarily (obviously assuming there's no age or mental health issues) and isn't really anyone else's business. It's a bit more complicated than that but essentially if exchange is no longer a part of the equation and it's not necessary to sustain life, is it still work? I'm not sure, will we say that the artist is working or will they still need to get a few hours in down at the distro to stay in good standing and are those 2 things even remotely comparable? I lean towards no. But if the compulsory nature is removed, the horrific health and safety issues are corrected, the stigma is eliminated, the sexism, racism and GSM phobia are eradicated, then it would be almost unrecognizable from what it is today in most of the world. But I think it's future or lack thereof is best determined by the participants and communities and not dictated by outsiders. But I'm constantly evolving on things lol So who knows. ✊👊✌♥A///E

[@mayamorena334]

The idea that sex workers are incapable of love and intimacy because of their jobs is also a SWERFy take. The idea that our very jobs don't have love or intimacy is bullshit. Like does your job have love and intimacy? What about most relationships and marriages nowadays? Do they have so financial motivations?

[@smekdei]

Thank you so fucking much for this video. As a woman who has been hurt by this industry, it means a lot.

[@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45]

_video with the word "sex" in the title_ KZbin: Wait, that's illegal.

[@ThatOneGuy7550]

This was very enlightening -- loved the video, BadMouse!

[@mayamorena334]

Oh yes! the enlightening objective thought of a white dude speaking for others people's experience, and measuring the success of society based on eugenics policy against sex workers. Brilliant!

[@jasonmartin4775]

@@mayamorena334 troll- he literally put in the video that he wasn't trying to tell anyone what to do.

[@52flyingbicycles]

So sex work is a bit like abortion. Both are highly connected to economic conditions and are considered immoral or sinful. A robust socialist society could effectively eliminate most abortions and sex work without necessarily making them illegal. Certainly easier said than done, but a noble goal imo.

[@mistymeadows3277]

There's not much need for sex workers in a gift economy.

[@aspensmonster]

Adding my own appreciation of the nuance. Also, appreciating the editing flourishes at 8:10.

[@gororo9380]

Ive changed my stance on this a lot. Happy to see a contextial reading of the issue.

[@Soniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic]

Good video that is needed for quite a lot of people in the leftist sphere. My view is that people underestimate how much the relations between people and sex would change as socialism progresses further. We often ask "what leads people to become sex workers?" and examine factors like you have in this video regarding the economy. This is fine but what I think is more interesting to ask when thinking of a somewhat developed socialism is "what leads people to buy sex?". Some people may make quips or even mocking statements because the answer is so obviously that, people buy sex because we really like sex and want it. But of course, this is missing the point. How dramatically does the current exploitation of sex workers and the extent of pornography shape societies current relations with and views of sex and love and relationships. Was there always such a large amount of people who are into BDSM and some of the other more intense fetishes? I feel like this is something that has developed specifically through our current societies treatment and use of sex workers. Some of these relationships are even quite obvious if we look at fetishes regarding slavery, humiliation, superiority and inferiority in various forms (including race). Would these fetishes exist forever? I'm not saying there are no fundamental components of sex that have existed for a very long time, or that no one used to have rough sex until a few hundred years ago or anything like that, but I think it's worthwhile to think about how our views have formed over time and how they will further develop over time. As we develop better mental health services and ways to treat peoples anxiety and isolation, idk, couldn't we get to a point where very few people even want to buy sex? Even if their are people genuinely willing to do it because they enjoy it, it won't matter if there isn't demand for it. It would definitely be interesting to look at 'primitive communism' societies (as per the marxist definition of pre-agricultural societies) and how they viewed and performed sex. I don't think sex work will ever entirely vanish either but I could see it greatly transforming of course.

[@AraksDemirdyian]

Oh shit finally someone talking about this. People often don't realize how much of a social construct our relationship with love, sex and social bonds in general is. In a truly free and socialist society the way we conceive sex would be completely different.

[@mayamorena334]

@@AraksDemirdyian Right, I think in a futuristic world, we would respect "femme" labor, And not view it as an automatically free commodity that they are just expected to do naturally for their families, their fathers, their boyfriends, their husbands will thought any reciprocation. In other words you are expected to pay for it or work for it. Reciprocate.

[@mayamorena334]

Sex workers and the sex industry do not create patriarchy they do not create toxic masculinity. People often use o Our labor for free online, they steal from us, they are committing wage theft against us, every time they watch free porn. They like to blame us for all of societies problems despite the fact that they exploit us, stigmatize us, talk shit about it. Like in this video. Most of my clients buy sex and buy my porn because they believe my labor is important, and is worth compensating for, and they care about me as a human being. This entire video and the comments are basically the people that refuse to tip at restaurants, they refuse to tip their waiters and they act like they are better than the people that tip their waiters. It's anti worker

[@KManAbout]

@@mayamorena334 Yea free porn isn't theft. There are shit tons of people who post videos of themselves having sex because they want to. Even for the sex worker videos that are online they are usually paid to be in the video. Sorry but porn videos arent your property.

[@davespiller684]

@@mayamorena334 But surely in a truly socialist society there would be no waiters, no economically disadvantaged class forced to make a living by serving wealthier people? Surely people would equally share the task of preparing and distributing food? You seem to be assuming that men either pay for porn or use free porn, which isn't exactly true. You also seem to be arguing that an interaction is only valid if it is transactional, and that employers show their respect for workers by paying them. This doesn't seem very socialist.

[@maksimilijan5029]

You look like you step out of the cover of Bob Dylans first album. NICE.

[@LutheranMockingbird]

Love the nuance. I've always wondered why leftists glorify the commodification of the body in sex work. This video explains that it's not that simple, on either side. I don't always agree with you, but I always appreciate your thoughtful opinions.

[@BigHenFor]

I have yet to hear a leftist glorifying the sex trade, especially as that is a capitalist construct. So your statement doesn't accord with reality, especially as the term "leftist" ratifies and obscures a continuum of ideas.

[@mayamorena334]

@James Connolly 1916 um yeah... literally. This is a horrible take. It's exclusionary and specifically says that sex workers are not like other workers

[@mayamorena334]

So much of our relationships including Donald Trump's marriage with Melania Trump is literally about money and yet we don't question marriage or relationships as an institution. It's sickens me that leftists for the most part, like everyone else consumes the labor of sex work by stealing (for free) but like endlessly talk shit about us and our labor

[@mischr13]

@James Connolly 1916 it's weird. I consider construction a form of selling ones body that is far more dangerous than SW and even involves modern day slavery...yet I never hear people saying we need to get rid of/minimize construction work. I'd say they are equally necessary in society, right?

[@againstempire6121]

This is a great take, I’ve encountered a surprising amount very harsh un-nuanced reactionary assessments of the role of sex work from otherwise very progressive individuals and i’m glad this is not one of them. Under capitalism a large proportion of sex workers are desperate due to the systematic lack of jobs and education or have become victims of human traffic. But criminalisation only limits opportunities of poor and vulnerable women and encourages black market growth. Sex work should absolutely therefore be decriminalised, regulated, unionised (and preferably armed), with the exploitative nature of pimping eradicated. I agree that under socialism sex work will not simply cease to exist many enjoy their work and should be treated with the same respect as any other member of the workforce. Only gradually as the material conditions of society change, and the social and economic dependency on capital become obsolete, through cultural evolution will the role of Sex work terminate.

[@TheSleepyowlet]

There's also the thing where a lot of people are alienated from intimate relationships due to social isolation or poverty. The whole incel thing is a symptom of that - only they kind of bark up the wrong tree. In a communist society, where people socialise more, where there are more Third Spaces to socialise in, where the basic needs of everyone are met unconditionally, finding someone to have a relationship or just sex with would be a lot easier. So the demand for sex work would go down a lot. There would still be sex work, but it would be a lot more grounded in mutual respect and consent.

[@rockenrollern]

It's called prostitution. This horrible practice must be eradicated completely. Just because a few decadent petty bourgeoisie enjoy it doesn't mean that this systematic rape and selling of women can be allowed to continue.

[@mayamorena334]

@@TheSleepyowlet wtf? Are you blaming us for incel culture because literally and incel culture hates sex workers and views us as separate from all other workers and all other people but go off I guess

[@mayamorena334]

@@rockenrollern wtf???? SWERF bullshit is this. A lot of people in the sex industry that I work with are men cis men, and bisexual men, gay men.. They would never get treated this way

[@mayamorena334]

Omg. It's really hilarious that you people seem to think that we would carry guns and shoot our clients, the very people who pay our bills, and talk to us and view as people. For some reason people like you, can watch your porn for free and steal from us and you somehow think we wouldn't point the gun at you. you don't think you are exploitive, as if you don't exist in this patriarchal society. You think you are better than our clients because you refuse to pay for sex workers and you are refuse to have interactions with us... wow the hatred is that deep. Most people in society, both men and women, use the labor of sex workers, they steal from us and they refuse to pay us, And they think that stealing from us shows that they respect us, it's disgusting

[@WangleLine]

Very well said. Take my algorithm-food!

[@enggilbertoguimaraes]

Do comment replies count as algorithm-food too?

[@WangleLine]

@@enggilbertoguimaraes Yes, most likely

[@akashselvam]

Will casual sex (one night stands) exist under socialism? I think people should make new relationships(like friendship, not even romantic sense) instead of never seeing the other person after one night. If we replace sex with cuddling instead I would still feel the same way.

[@Jay-rn6dt]

Love your little motion graphic-y touches as usual. Great nuanced take on the subject! We really do need to stand by the workers first and foremost, while acknowledging that the current material conditions might actually be affording them less freedom in their involvement in sex work than some would like to think.

[@Pridetoons]

Under Communism Porn will be a thing of the past.

[@vlnow]

maybe the numbers of sex workers goes up in economic hard times, but for everyday sex workers, they don;t like an economic downturn or recession, as they make way less money ( way less) per trick. This is a proven thing btw.

[@janglobus9384]

You are right, in communism nobody have enough Money to hire a Sexworker. Now all make sense

[@dustind4694]

This needs to play right after Olly's video on the topic. Rounds out the discussion and goes from 'sex workers are people' to 'don't moralize unless you have alternatives'.

[@wes4439]

+

[@mayamorena334]

I don't want alternatives. I'm not a dumb ass, I'm aware what the alternatives are and it's more exploitative labor. I literally have plenty of people who give me alternatives, christians who yell at us and give us pamphlets and want to put us into work programs because they want to exploit us. This isn't progressive. At all. Sex work isn't a problem to be solved, we're revolutionary by default. That's why we're "illegal" and criminalized

[@anarchistmugwump9137]

Excellent video! I think you've given this the thought and consideration needed to actually foster solidarity and challenge the issue. Great work.

[@Tacom4ster]

Distribute the sex robots, Male, female, and intersex. Thought this was gonna be a retread of Philosophy Tube, but pretty well made.

[@witchsick]

Also, algorithm boop

[@Nosirrbro]

I think, under a socialist or DotP society, a good metaphor to think about how it might be best to approach sex work, particularly prostitution, is similar to how you might think about and approach unhealthy foods. It can often be harmful, and should be politely discouraged, but can't possibly be made illegal and some people genuinely enjoy it which should be their right.

[@Zeal_Faith_Humanity]

Infintile disorder detected.

[@james192599]

Soviet larping detected

[@Zeal_Faith_Humanity]

@@james192599 The American left are degenerates and will never be taken seriously by the ruling class. "James".

[@ShoreshFathi]

Pee pee poo poo

[@ZoneofA]

Why is Mouse in a coat inside his own apartment. Had they shut down his heating?

[@TheRantMaster53]

Let the man flex his drip

[@whereisawesomeness]

I must say, everything you've said seems quite obvious and true, which makes me wonder why you were so clearly very nervous about this. Perhaps it's just me, but I've not encountered any radical leftists who disagree with any of this

[@BadMouseProductions]

Leftists of the more Anarchist pursuation on twitter are very hostile to downtalking sex work, one search for the words 'Left, Sex Work' on twitter and you'll see why.

[@mayamorena334]

@@BadMouseProductions It's because he wants state control and surveillance of prostitution, to monitor their numbers and decrease them, and because he's against sex worker led liberation. Like he's literally mocking me on his Twitter page right now to all his followers. Basically he wants to speak for sex workers but he doesn't want to actually talk to sex workers themselves because he views us as inferior and different to all their workers. He is aware just like TERFs that he is a bigot. Just like TERFs he's going on about how he just wants to be "critical" about this issue because he already knows that his views are bad. It's hilarious that he calls himself a Communist when it's very clear that he actually does believe in a state especially when it comes to sex workers. It's only "obvious" because it's literally the default position in our society.

[@mischr13]

.

[@quasimoanus6120]

@@mayamorena334 calm down you dont have to reply to every comment

[@hitchhiker8798]

How about decriminalizing gamers first?

[@herobrinesblog]

Here here!

[@SpoopySquid]

Sorry, but gamers are the first to get the guillotine

[@Stefano-dd2sf]

Gamers rise up 😤😤😤

[@JHashcroft]

The revolution requires the liquidation of gamers as a class

[@robertx8020]

Any gamers that can beat me during gaming should die anyway ...which would be about 99% :p

[@PierreTruDank]

#SWERFGang

[@flower-ld5id]

sex workers against work

[@terryh.9238]

Whoa, an actual nuanced take on sex work? That might be the rarest of all takes.

[@dibinuya-murray3167]

Shout out GABRIELA

[@andreasanders7322]

So, honest question: you say there's "no doubt" that there will always be people who'll want to have sex for reasons other than bearing children and personal gratification. Besides money, what other reason is there? I sincerely cannot think of one. There is not really a reason to believe that anyone has sex with others for purely altruistic reasons, or is there?

[@caimacd]

Well said, comrade🌮 have a taco

[@nataschavisser573]

Thanks for this. I always thought decriminalisation can help sex workers escape police harrassment and so forth but decriminalisation should not legitimise sex workers' expliotation.

[@mayamorena334]

All parts of the full service sex industry are already criminalized. There's literally orgs that do federally funded "John schools" and many offenders (just like bars) are underaged boys. "Pimps" are usually brown and black boys and men. The NYPD literally had a "pimp squad" division in the 70s and 80s. Many "pimps"... are actually sex workers. Unlike other industries, our industry has the most workers who control most or even ALL parts of their job, control their rates, and get paid the full profits of their labor. No other industry can claim that for their workers.

[@anonymousmisnomer5443]

In regards to the Anurhada Gandhi quote, I find a bit reductionist and alo-normative. Do ace people live a “mechanical and monotonous social life”?

[@Fux704]

What does "alo normative" and "ace" mean?

[@anonymousmisnomer5443]

O Trabalhista alosexual vs. asexual.

[@TheSleepyowlet]

The quote was just a jump-off thing. Anyway, no, people who don't feel sexual desire aren't any less human than people who do. This is what I think Comrade Mouse was trying to illustrate with that quote: Sex is just one possible expression for a basic human need - to be touched in a gentle, kind way. Sex-workers I talked to said that this is the most important thing - the compassion, the touch, the making the customer feel desired and wanted. The sex itself is almost an afterthought, and it's mainly there because toxic masculinity indoctrinated men to think that sex is the only physical intimacy they're allowed. Which is why the vast majority of people visiting sex-workers are men. To be entirely facetious: Men visit a sex worker, women get a cat.

[@henrylangstaff624]

Wow what a nice thing to say but I think you could edit to make sure you’re talking about anuradha Gandhi instead of the wrong Gandhi

[@TheSleepyowlet]

@@henrylangstaff624 SHIT you are entirely right. Edited.

[@morphingfaces]

we have to dismantle patriarchy and misogyny before sex workers can be safe and separated from monetary capitalism and toxic masculine objectification and sexist dehumanizing beauty standards and abuse tolerance.

[@jerryfeelgood8455]

Great work as ever, comrade mouse. Maybe Sex Work under Socialism would just be ... sex for sex' sake. Just as creating art under socialism would just be artistry for arts or sports for sports sake. They're enjoyable activities that people do without being forced to. Activities that we're currently incentivized to monetize in order to make a living could simply turn into hobbies we perform in the greatly increased free time we'd have. I see no reason why a socialist society would have to organize activities people do out of their own volition as work.

[@gangarollo]

I had not watched one of your videos in a while, I do like your new style a lot tbh.

[@sket4ket47]

Why do you think sex work has anything to do with boyfriends and girlfriends? You can have sex with anyone over the age of consent.

[@BadMouseProductions]

If someone can't get a gf or bf or fwb their only option for physical intimacy is paying for it.

[@sket4ket47]

@@BadMouseProductions not only boy friends and girlfriends are physically intimate. People have one night stands, experiment with their friends and get up to all sorts of mischief. I am in a monogamous relationship however so many different sexual relationships exist and are acknowledged nowadays.

[@Falstaff0809]

Armed, revolutionary sex-workers. I love it, comrade!

[@againsttheleftandright4065]

How's your wife's son doing?

[@McHobotheBobo]

I concur with many of the others here, this is the best video I've seen on sex work yet

[@Empty_Robot]

what's the movie you used a clip from at 2:26?

[@lizflaherty1374]

I find this take more agreeable than most leftist takes I see on this topic. One thing I'd add is also that through revolution, people throw off the muck of ages. Ideas like sexism and racism are challenged as workers face up against the systemic bases of those ideas. And in a society that has washed itself of sexism, I do not believe that anyone's body would be objectified and sold for sexual gratification. You don't financially pressure your comrades to have sex with you. So there would be both no need for people to become sex workers (due to economic liberation) and there would be no desire for people to hire sex workers. But on the thing you say about consent in this video - I do think we can call sex work rape. Yes, all labor isn't consensual under capitalism, but most labor also isn't sexual. Being forced to make coffee for wages may be awful and alienating and all, but its not going to give you PTSD. Sex work is traumatizing for most workers on a level that most work just isn't. This of course isn't an argument against decrim, but it is an argument against any principled anti-sexist paying for sex. If you're a john, you're a rapist.

[@victortan9086]

In the first 45 seconds of the video I had half written a paragraph or two of vitriol, that would have shed heat, not light. But your argument, even if I think it is faulty and not entirely reflective of how humans actually function, was eloquent and far more rationally put forward than the other SWERFy rubbish that the person who recommended this video to me has done. So well done, like rating given

[@thebeingdestroyerofworlds8690]

'CUCK'

[@omerk1860]

Anarchy already guarantees your well being. So automatically you don't have to be a sex worker. If you were doing it because you didn't have other options, now you can stop. But if you feel happy when you help other people get rid of their sexual frustrations or if you're skilled in a kink and giving people that experience pleases you then you would continue. I don't understand what confuses you here or how your view is different.

[@AlexiLaiho227]

*rubs hands together* HELL yes, this one is gonna be lit mocking voice: whAt arE you soMe kiNd of swErf badmau5

[@mayamorena334]

Hilarious to mock sex worker criticisms. You are not pro worker if you literally mock the fact that sex workers are going to be against this video, like why pretend to be on our side when it's very obvious that you aren't?

[@ahouyearno]

This is one of the best analyses of sex work I've ever watched. And I agree that it's not fair to project the experience of the better of on the worse off sex workers and vice versa. It's something that muddies the topic.

[@dethkon]

Absolutely. "Sex Work" means everything from stripping/camming to selling pussy these days. It makes it nearly impossible to have a real conversation.

[@ericjosephgarand8585]

You mentioned certain Amerindian cultures at the 10:56 mark, but have you taken the time to ask the following: When was the last time you have seen a Yanomami prostitute or Waorani sex worker? Sex work will persist, so long as people are denied ACCESS to the resources necessary to lead a full life (in the case of the Yanomami and Waorani, those resources are provided by the Amazon rainforest).

[@BadMouseProductions]

I mean thats what I basically say, your relations to sex change based on your conditions.

[@tinnagigja3723]

Great video, although I was hoping you would look at the 'demand side' under different ideological systems - why would demand for prostitution be higher or lower under capitalism. I also couldn't help but wonder - especially after that Ghandy quote - that when people are taught to substitute sex for intimacy, i.e. if you feel the need to be physically close to another human, sex is the only "manly" way to do it, or even when it is put on a pedestal as particularly intimate or sacred, it might increase both the demand for sex work, and violence against sex workers.

[@BigHenFor]

Your observation misses one essential truth - what people say and what people to are often poles apart. Sex work is a cultural, political, and economic problem. But it isn't a problem of itself. We have problematised it. It's problem is that it cannot escape those contexts. Capitalism sits like a great virus, invading and coopting even our consciousness for material gain, ensuring it shapes our reality in order for it to survive. It is work - as the exchange of labour for resources to survive - that is the sacred cow that should be slain. And sex work exists within that context as much as the blue collar worker in a factory. So even if prostitution was legalised, the same economic things would occur in that industry, as they do in any other industry, and those working in it would be exploited also. In fact, it is not unrealistic to see Uber as a capitalist model for prostitution. And that is a problem that anyone critical of capitalism can't escape. As for the violence against women being promoted by those who want it to come in from the margins and destigmatised, I don't think that's true. After all, is marriage promoting domestic violence? No; it is the twisted version of masculinity that exists where women are still owned by their partners and must be dominated and controlled. We cannot escape the issue that marginalised groups are subjected to violence more because they are marginalised rather than what they do. More simply, violence against prostitutes is culturally sanctioned punching down. It is because they have little social capital, that they are subjected to violence more than what they do.

[@mayamorena334]

Ah yes the Classic the neoliberal idea that sex workers can easily be eliminated, because after all we're just sex objects that exist because a man has magically manifested us into existence because they demanded our existence from the economic "demand". And if we just eliminate "the demand" by metaphorically shooting Brown and black men through police violence, and putting them in prison that sex workers will just cease to exist.

[@Leftistattheparty]

Where did you get the anarchist Catalonia clip?

[@lavitorroja2632]

The name is Libertarias if you were wondering

[@ernststravoblofeld]

For three million years, there wasn't any work. Just life. Not that I want to live that primitive, but I think we can learn something from that, for any kind of work.

[@mayamorena334]

The reason why sex work will continue after capitalism is numerous. Many of my clients visit to experiment and because they believe in compensating LGBTQ people and femmes. They believe female labor of listening, caring, and nurturing deserve money and respect. I've had clients that are too scared to be open about enjoying being dominated, being bisexual, being pegged, or even their identity. Paying someone to be open with is freeing for them. Not too mention many people with disability visit sex workers. I actually think that marriage and dating as institutions are what need to be destroyed. As people get more freedom and money, marriage rates, and birth rates go down. But of course because of our white supremacist society with puritan views, sex work is always seen as the problem. I don't believe heterosexual monogamous relationships will be as normal or ideal once people have options and start questioning our systems. This idea that our existence and numbers represent a problem is an issue. Marriage numbers are the real indicators of liberation. So many women would love to leave their abusive partners but can't because they rely on their partner for basic needs and our government incentives this at every level including decreased taxes for married couples. Many of these women turn to sex work to escape... but sex work is viewed as a problem and their marriage is viewed as default good, as the "ideal" of love. Free femme labor has built Male wealth and privilege and thus sex work is viewed as the lowest form of labor.

[@Kaarli]

this video is brilliant comrad. thank you!

[@sycon3655]

We want videos about Ancapistan !

[@shawn8847]

Any badmouse merch?

[@BadMouseProductions]

Neeeeverrrrrr

[@shawn8847]

@@BadMouseProductions lmao. Dude its okay. Lucy Parsons owned a sewing shop.

[@kapitankapital6580]

I don't think I like the idea of sex work under socialism. If you want to do something like this on your own time, more power to you, but I don't think people should be getting a state wage for any sort of sex work. I think that, like non-propaganda or non-educational art and other similar fields, it should be left to free time and the inclination of the individual, not be part of the required work that somebody needs to perform as their contribution to the socialist planned economy.

[@abrahamjaleel9463]

I feel like sex work under communism/socialism would be just sex and no work. lol, like i can imagine some sort of institution where people go to have sex but it would be out of people's own volition and obv no money would be invovled.

[@frederik7338]

@@abrahamjaleel9463 so basically a swinger-club?

[@abrahamjaleel9463]

@@frederik7338 yeah basically lol

[@sinekonata]

Agreed. If we imagine full communism, where everyone has the same as others, there is no point in anyone having non consenting sex for money because that money would afford you little and no one would have the extra money to buy it. That's why our current society is so disgusting, because it's basically white men exploiting coloured women, stealing their money everyday, then offering a bit of it back in exchange for whatever they want, from sex to cleaning toilets. And if yes cleaning toilets is humiliating and abusive also, I probably don't need to explain why putting your penis into the woman and all the rest it entails is on another level of humiliation and abuse. Because it's rape. Plain and simple.

[@kapitankapital6580]

@@abrahamjaleel9463 Yeah, to be honest what I was thinking is more like amateur porn or creating erotic art. It can be facilitated under socialism as a means of recreation, but it shouldn't be a paying job.

[@EH-bg1yo]

Use the Nordic method the customer is always guilty

[@aluminium4303]

That model doesn't help and it still leaves sex workers under unsafe conditions. If the costumer is a criminal for soliciting then they can't go to the authorities in the case they suspect they're dealing with a victim of human trafficking.

[@EH-bg1yo]

@@aluminium4303 do you think the kind off man who buys prostitutes is the kind of man who carws

[@EH-bg1yo]

Cares

[@aluminium4303]

@@EH-bg1yo Yes. I think indeed that most people who want to solicit a prostitute don't want to rape an underaged trafficked girl. Most people aren't bourgeois like that. And it's not like capitalists don't get away with soliciting in the Nordic countries.

[@iAmMsCrap]

Alright so i don't know for sure if i COMPLETELY get what this vid is getting at. From what i understand at least part of the message is for leftists to not glorify sex work because a lot of people are forced into it unwillingly because of material conditions out of their control under capitalism but also not to villify it because it will always be a thing even in the best conditions because some people just enjoy doing it and being absolutely against it/in favor of criminalizing it isn't doing anybody who's currently in the industry any favors be they exploited or not because they depend on it to survive, so sex work as a whole can only be viewed in an objectively positive light once exploitation i.e. capitalism is fully out of the picture? Is that the entire gist of the video or is there something else that I'm missing cause if that's it then that's p much what I already thought.

[@brasspipes2548]

BAD MOUSE! Russian viewer here. I have a question - why are there no videos on English speaking KZbin depicting the Communist Manifesto? It is such a key document of the whole Marxist movement and there hasn't been a single attempt in the UK or US to visualize it. Russian communists, on the other hand, have already done it, you can search for a video called "Константин Сёмин Манифест коммунистической партии" (Konstantin Syomin, Communist Manifesto) and you'll see. It's quite well made and more importantly, it's Communist Manifesto for goodness sake, it should be shared and people should know about it. Why don't you and your fellow communist comrades team up and make a video like that in English? That would be epic and very useful!

[@Jim89M]

ΜΕΤΑΝΟΕΙΤΕ ΕΥΛΟΓΗΤΟΣ...

[@LongshanMusic]

no. this is ridiculous. without personal gratification in a world without money, what does this mean?

[@CallofBear]

Actually, you left out the fact that in Cuba post-revolution prostitution was taking place in exchange for consumer goods rather than money.

[@burnfornever9292]

If he brought that up he'd have to bring up the fact his view on post revolution Cuba on the whole is a tankie fantasy based solely on leftist fan fiction/propaganda

[@Pridetoons]

Great Video Bad Mouse.

[@harrydamour7564]

🐣

[@Pridetoons]

@Working Prole What's good y'all!

[@TomPhoenixSC]

Great video, BadMouse. Honestly, I kind of regret your decision to end your career as a KZbinr, since you've done a good job of highlighting issues a lot of other content creators in the leftist space don't (sufficiently) address. But alas, at least we're good material while you're still at it.

[@lmello009]

I don't think it's that simple, either. It's problematic to talk about it without bringing up the topic of sexuality in a broader sense, and that's, well, 'dense' to say the least.

[@Soniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic]

That's what I touched on in my comment, I think the broader links between sexuality and how people view and perform sex is a large factor regarding this topic.

[@px7107]

This was kind of... wacky.

[@jok1957]

This isn't actually logical, uhm, he talks in a calm tone and seems reasonable but if you actually listens he's cheating. He constantly shuffles around Like in the end, where he says "it's not about sin, it's material" then proceeds with examples of how horrible sex work is in real world examples, then ties it's all together with a quote that's his explicit moral stance. However he doesn't make any reasonable arguments for why “(sex work) debases the most intimate of human relations. Separating sex from love and intimacy human relations become mechanical and inhuman”. Allthough he pretends to have done this, don't be fooled by his calm voice, this is not actually reasonable and balanced.

[@pueIIaaeterna]

that jacket is 🔥, where can i get it?

[@pfw4568]

I must coooonsuuuuum

[@keeKeeConnolly]

What's the clip of the Catalan CNT woman?

[@bubbleboy2590]

really interesting and nuanced take! I enjoyed it!

[@eliassoud3628]

Great Video, Comrade!

[@SpoopySquid]

Anyone know the name of the film at 2:18?

[@BadMouseProductions]

Its in the left corner?

[@MrxstGrssmnstMttckstPhlNelThot]

Libertarias, like he said, it's in the top left corner. Here's a link to it with English subtitles: christiebooks.co.uk/anarchist_films/libertarias-1996-vicente-aranda/

[@SpoopySquid]

@@BadMouseProductions derp well don't I look like a right twat now. Thanks

[@jacob_ian_decoursey_the_author]

I was just thinking about the sex work/capitalism connection no more than a week ago. I realized that leftists I knew were not discussing it, likely because it hadn't crossed their minds.

[@vlnow]

i hope you don;t mind. I just found the opening statement so funny in a double entendre way i had to make a shtpst video if it. Don;t sue me bro

[@PremierMatthew]

Hello Badmouse, I am a smaller Marxist channel and I was hoping you could shout out my latest video or something along those lines. The latest video was weeks in the marking, and the algorithm isn’t quite picking it up. Cheers!

[@patbiss7742]

If you think that sex workers are selling their bodies, but don't think the same of coal miners, you probably just hate sex workers

[@theswoletariat3479]

A GOOD TAKE! Its been a minute.

[@thisaccountisdead9060]

Idiot here asking why you can't separate (de-couple) the economy/economic activity from material conditions/the material relationships between people? The best I can come up with at the moment is: 1 - 1/Pareto = 1/erdos. Where erdos = ln(population size) / ln(average number of friends per person). And Pareto = ln(population size) / [ln(population size) - ln(average number of friends per person)]. And 1 - 1/Pareto = ln(1 - P) / ln(1 - (1 - P)), where P = % of total people, (1 - P) = % of total Wealth. So for example with the Alternative Influencer Network (AIN) I could guess (based on report last year): - 60 people in Network; 736 Network connections; Average of 12.267 connections per person in network. Therefore erdos = ln(60) / ln(12.267) = 1.633 average degrees of separation between people in the AIN Pareto = ln(60) / [ln(60) - ln(12.267)] = 2.579 So 1 - 1/Pareto = ln(1 - P) / ln(1 - (1 - P), and so P is roughly 0.4, meaning 60% of wealth in AIN goes to 40% people. Or 10% of wealth goes to Andy Warski specifically (as th emost connected and central in the network). Or for the whole world; 6 billion people; average of 30 friends per person Therefore erdos = ln(6 billion) / ln(30) = 6.6 average degrees of separation per person in the world Pareto = ln(6 billion) / [ln(6 billion) - ln(30)] = 1.178 So 1 - 1/Pareto = ln(1 - P) / ln(1 - (1 - P)), and so P is roughly 0.2, meaning 80% of wealth of world goes to 20% of people. Or 50% of wealth goes to 1% of people while 1% of wealth goes to 50% of people. From above, total equality requires a low erdos number (degrees of separation) and high Pareto number to achieve 50% of wealth going to 50% of the people - i.e. everyone is equally friends with just as much friends as everyone else.