Bagua and its Eight-Direction Forces: a Further Development

This video introduces a new method to organize and categorize the different practices in Bagua basic force/power training by integrating the Eight-Force and 3-Elements concepts to the style.
Topics include:
1, Primordial Bagua and its Three-Elements, (2:25)
2, Current issues of Bagua basic movement training, (6:11)
3, Solution for said issues, (13:16)
4, Some principles of Bagua force training, (18:47)
5, Demonstration, (25:34)
6, Takeaways. (26:21)
Connect with me:
Facebook: / hai.yang.internal.style
Twitter: / yanghaimontreal
Website: internalstyle.com
Check out my videos introducing the internal styles:
Cheng Style Baguazhang (Bagua) and its Founder, Cheng Tinghua
• Cheng Style Baguazhang...
Baguazhang: Building Blocks, Requirements, and Expectations
• Tai Chi Quan: Building...
Bagua Overview: • Ba Gua Overview
Xing Yi Overview: • Xing Yi Overview
Tai Chi Overview: • Tai Chi Overview
Internal Style of Practice Lecture Series: • Internal Style of Prac...
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#InternalMartialArt #InternalKungFu #dantian #bagua #baguazhang #chengstyle #donghaichuan #chengtinghua #yinfu #eighttrigrams #3elements #xingyi #Taichi #haiyang #internalstyle #martialart

[@ukguy]

I have practiced Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang for 20 years yet I still learn useful information from your videos. I wish I could begin from the beginning again with such a proficient teacher.

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thanks for the comments. It is not my efforts, it is due the style. Xingyi is a style with a rich contents and I am just sharing it with others.

[@bdlkinetics]

exellent work sir!! Greetings from europe

[@Purwapada]

. thank you!!!! I always want to make bagua more application focused. Very informative video!!!

[@HaiYangChannel]

Glad it was helpful!

[@BaguaSpirit]

The load of content in this video is terrifyingly interesting. Love it!

[@HaiYangChannel]

Glad you enjoy it! Thanks,

[@pgskills]

This is a truly interesting exploration of the issues concerning trying to build connections between the huge variety of movements in Bagua and its underlying theoretical foundations, Sifu. I have found myself running into many of the same difficulties in trying to organize the material and exercises I have learned or developed over the years. Your long list of the various basic movements associated with Bagua starting at 9:22 illustrates the problem perfectly, and that list is really just confined to movements with a single hand! Then there is the ever-present concern or focus on the number eight which, while it can be a useful tool to categorize sets of exercises or palm changes, can, when applied too zealously, feel at times restrictive and at other times too large. I'm drawn more and more to thinking of basic movements/strikes/palms in terms of direction of force rather than the hand form or striking area associated with the movement. After all, a movement used to apply force directly downwards, for example, can be applied using a palm strike, a ridge hand, a fist, a hammer fist, an inner forearm, an elbow, etc. So I try to organize my basic movements in terms of direction alone. Even then though, the possibilities tend to grow exponentially. Using your own X,Y,Z coordinate model and placing the origin of the force (0,0,0) at the dantien, using the eight main directions on a compass, leads to 24 directions that force can be applied (26 if one also includes straight up or down along the Z axis). And this is just thinking of it in terms of the arm moving in a linear fashion! When one includes all the circular and spiraling force possibilities drawn from the concepts of winding and unwinding the body around a vertical center axis or around the dantien, well then the numbers truly do become very large indeed. It seems so difficult for me to try to organize even this one simple idea of directions of force into groups of eight. And then to try to also correlate this huge variety of directions with the Eight Force and Three Element concepts underlying Bagua theory! It's a huge and imposing undertaking indeed. I've been thinking along the lines of trying to cut away any of the possible directions which do not lend themselves to functional use in application. For example, if you are not swinging your body off-axis via a step, pivot, or rotation around the center of some kind, it seems pointless to consider directing force in a straight line backwards, i.e., directly along the negative side of the Y axis, since, from an application standpoint this would involve directing an incoming force directly into your body. Directing that force in and down or in and up does however lend itself to possible application such as sprawling or pulling someone down to the ground as you move backwards or throwing someone directly over your head as in a suplex or other duck under type of throw. I do, of course, understand that strikes can and should be trained for use along this particular direction. Also, for reasons of functional strength it seems to me that directing force backwards and upwards on a diagonal from the dantien may be somewhat useless. These are just some ideas I've been working on which I wanted to share with you. Obviously this is a simplification, but it seems that simplification is in many ways what is needed in order to organize Bagua in the way you say is currently needed. On a different point, Sifu, I was wondering if you have run across any Bagua systems that use spinal undulation or whipping as a fundamental power mechanic. In my original Bagua system it was called the 'dragonback' and, in terms of circular force, it seems an expression of rotating force around the dantien on a vertical plane either forward or backwards. I know that slow waves or undulation of the spine is often taught in many chi kung systems, but have never really come across it being taught as a power mechanic in any other martial art that I've researched, at least not overtly or as a self-contained mechanic. Have you run across this power-generation method at all? Thank you as always, Sifu. This lecture has given me so much food for thought and I think it will take many viewings for me to fully digest what you are presenting here. I do find myself in complete agreement with you regarding the relative lack of organization and theoretical systematization in Bagua and am trying my best to contribute what I can to improving this situation as you are. An additional difficulty/consideration is that I'm doing this without the benefit of having learned a complete traditional Bagua system and, as a matter of necessity, have developed many exercises and routines of my own! It is an interesting longterm project, to be sure. I hope that you and yours are doing well, Sifu.

[@HaiYangChannel]

First of all, thank you for your writing, I am very happy to read it since there are a lot of information too. to answer your question regarding the spinal undulation or whipping method, if I understand well, you are saying that initiate the force from the wave of the spin... In my opinion, I do not think it is a good practice. It is slow, and not powerful either. Yes, some people may say that it looks very powerful. But they have to test it by themselves. I tested it by myself when I visited China and someone showed it to me, and it was slow and not that easy to concentrate the force. This is why I do not recommend it. But it's just my opinion. Again, thank you for your input. This is one of the objectives that let other people in the community get involved in sharing their experiences!

[@pgskills]

@@HaiYangChannel Thank you for your honest and informed opinion, Sifu. And thanks again for all the thought and effort you continue to put into this series of lectures. You are very thorough and driven in your quest to spread real knowledge about these traditional arts. I know I'm not the only one who is extremely grateful for your generosity and keen understanding. I'll continue to try to provide you feedback and input when I feel I have something of value to add to the discussion. Thanks again!

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thanks, we all work together!

[@aljosapecar9672]

,,,

[@damonwalker7527]

Instablaster.

[@halterrill9475]

I wish you could train me in person . I’m going to try and learn everything I can from your videos

[@HaiYangChannel]

Maybe one day! Thanks.

[@CrystallineWisdom]

Shify Yang u are the very best on youtube ! U knowledge expands into vasteness

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thanks. There is still a lot of Space for me to improve.

[@dr.jerryroberson3169]

Thank you so much for sharing. I find every single one of your videos to be incredibly informative. Blessings. 🙏🏾

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thank you and it's my great pleasure to share it with others!

[@AndrePrasetya]

Greetings from Indonesia, thank you for sharing your knowledge of internal practices in such detail, it greatly opens my mind. I will stay tune for each of your videos.

[@HaiYangChannel]

Glad it was helpful! thanks and take care.

[@JerryGoNuts]

Thank you so much for this lecture, especially the part about the I-Ching trigrams. Your lecture helped me understand what I studied 30 years ago, and stopped. I am going to pick up where I left off.

[@HaiYangChannel]

You're very welcome!

[@drunkmara]

Thank Laoshi! Now I understand how my practice was unstructured and fragmented, your lectures help put things in order in my practice. For many years I studied an unknown style, it was called "Wudangpai", I did not know the theory of eight gates or forces of eight directions. He taught only forms (Shisan shi, Bagua 8 basic palm). When I subsequently went to the Wudang Mountains, I did not see anything like it there. The movements in the complexes of this style resemble a mixture of bajiquan + bagua + tai chi. Now, thanks to you, my head is tidied up about what a real practice should be!

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thank you for sharing the information with me. Actually, I always try NOT to talk about those "wudang" things... To tell you a personal story: years ago, some people in China and part of them are my students invited me to teach in Wudang mountain. Most of them were not from Wudang area but planned to "rent" or "lease" a temple for me to teach Kungfu over there so that according to their statements, that it would be looked more "appealing to foreigners". I refused that proposal immediately. This story can reflect some certain facts of that area... But, they are doing this for business, and business ethics can be flexible to some people, but not me.

[@drunkmara]

@@HaiYangChannel Thank you for sharing with me. I am very happy to be able to watch your lectures, this helps me and also helps someone else on the path to learning.

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thanks.

[@thunderflower7998]

@@HaiYangChannel One day I would love to hear you talk as a historian,researcher about Wudang Taoist martial arts...Is there an original wading or Taoist tai chi from Daoist monks? Are there different Taoist Shans and Taoist styles? In different Taoist temples? Is there a documented lineage in daoism for the martial arts? The so called nei jia...Tai chi....Bagua....Xing I....Lei Ba Fa? Have you travelled in the Indonesian Archipelagos?There was a style called MO Pai...according to the martia art of MO Zhi...who was a contemporaneous of Lao Zu? In the book The Magus of Java it is described...,and there was a video of John CHANG DOING UNIFICATION OF YIN YANG IN DANTIEN TO CREATE SOME DEFENDING CHI..QI.... ALL OF THIS COULD BEVERY INTERESTI G AS A LECTURE FROM THE DEBTHS OF YOUR EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE. GREETINGS FROM XI LA!

[@mcronrn]

Thank you for taking the time to make these video sharing your expertise on bagua zhang. My own experience is ba gua was very brief, as was my experience in tai chi, yet both impacted how I view my primary martial art of many decades, Shotokan karate. Since my personal knowledge of ba gua zhang is scant, and my knowledge of Chinese cosmology is even less, I appreciate the parts of your erudite presentation that I understand. Perhaps one day ba gua zhang can be presented in a manner that is less culturally- and language-specific. I think that, if BGZ is presented in a manner more broadly understood, then its martial and health benefits will be more widely appreciated. Your talks help move ba gua in this direction, in my opinion... 🙏🙏🙏

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thank you for your input. It is my objective to make BGZ more accessible to people since this great practice deserves a better attention.

[@Concentratieprobleem]

Thank you so much for this! I have been training Yin bagua for a couple of years going through the basics with so many questions in my head. It really helps me to have a well structured theoretical reference to deepen my understanding of what I am trying to do! Thank you so much good sir

[@HaiYangChannel]

You're so welcome!

[@donaldreid4193]

Your knowledge is so profound......more videos please

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thanks

[@stillnessinmovement]

in my practice, I use 3 main movements to develop whole body power. walking the circle with 1. single palm posture/raising hands to clouds (hold and alternate) 2. circle walk with running horse palm (constantly moving) and circle walk with turning back or snake palm, constantly moving. I use the circle, figure 8, 5 element circles, and the 9 palaces patterns (I think you are calling them something else, but it's the same pattern you show on the video) the walk and changes are intechangeable, the work is to be able to move freely after you spend time working each pattern. this is the form that I learned from Zhang Jie of Liu Bin/9 palaces method, but just with single palm posture. it was suggested to work these out. in our system this is where you develop power, later you can memorize applications from forms, or make them up as you practice, which I find more useful, as real combat is not rehearsed or organized. now im gonna see if my answer is close to yours. thanks!

[@stillnessinmovement]

we have several application forms to develop these strikes. in our system, the body power is more important, most of these movements use same body power. being honest, i feel this is applications basics, how to fit the attack to the opponent. if you have great power, all these will work well. if not a lot of power, none will work very well.

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thank you for your writing. I am very curious of Zhang Jie's practice. I have never heard about him,. Do you have a link of his demonstration?

[@HaiYangChannel]

Great. Could you please show us a demonstration? I believe that people in our community will benefit of it. Thanks in advance.

[@stillnessinmovement]

@@HaiYangChannel here is a link. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4iZh2SCe6eofdE he's in mid 70's at when this was taken. I had a very hard time getting him to demonstrate much, but he had an encyclopedic knowledge of the Liu Bin forms, of which there were likely hundreds. Also history and philosophy. he deeply loved classic chinese culture. still does. He's from Liu Bin lineage, under Liu Xing Han and Wang Wen Kui. He helped author several of Liu Bin's books in beijing. I also helped him write 2 books on SD beijing bagua in english. they are his words, I just helped to find right english words and take pictures. Liu Bin's Zhuang Gong Bagua zhang, by Zhang Jie with Richard Shapiro, from Atlantic books. He is a scholar, and continues to write books mostly in chinese, from his home in seattle WA, where he moved in mid 90s.

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thank you for sharing it. It is nice. But I am not familiar with that lineage. So hard to make any comments.

[@GodinFrederic]

Hi Master Yang, since you mentioned in your stepping video that you welcome ideas about future topics in videos, I believe examples of applications of all the various ways to use palms in Bagua you mentioned in this video could be extremely interesting. I don't know much about Bagua, and I didn't realize how numerous were the ways of using the palms (I guess this showcases the richness/abundance of techniques in the style you mentioned in earlier videos). Fred

[@HaiYangChannel]

Sure. It is the lockdown time. I prefer not to take a video with another person while wearing masks. But when COVID issue settles down then I will work on application related videos. Merci

[@thomasbayer2832]

Awesome!

[@larrylitrakis9400]

thanks again master.

[@HaiYangChannel]

You are very welcome

[@Aklukva]

Thanks! Could you next time explain the meanings of shun, ni, he, hua and Yang huo and Yin fu in Baguazhang?

[@HaiYangChannel]

wow. they are interesting topics. I will see the possibility to talk about it or not in the future. may not many people interested of them. Thanks,

[@helenmah9768]

👍👍👍🙏🙏🙏

[@HaiYangChannel]

Thanks

[@Sam-ch4jh]

Your content is much useful and cannot find elsewhere I am practicing yang style 85 forms. Does it include all concepts you describe?

[@HaiYangChannel]

Sure.

[@quimetfont1]

Thank you so very much for sharing your wealth of information, Mr. Yang! I have two questions, the first is whether you could recommend persons who teach internal arts online, I am especially interested in learning Bagua online. I practice Wing Chung and I wonder if you know of teachers who are knowledgeable in combining both arts; also, if you think there is a particular Bagua style which blends especially well with Wing Chung at the level of practical fighting. I am interested in the Cheng style of Bagua because of its emphasis on throwing, I am under the impression that it should integrate well with Wing Chung, but again I wonder what your thoughts are on this subject. Thanks again!

[@HaiYangChannel]

Hello, I think online is a good solution as long as the teacher knows what he is doing and knows how to teach. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with anything who practices both Wingchun and Bagua. Thanks.

[@CrystallineWisdom]

Dao Lake ! Hes a great Bagua Online trainer !

[@stillnessinmovement]

when you say that one should use both power and speed, what does that say of the old bagua masters who used less physical movement in their force production? you have mentioned how wang changed the movement to be larger and more external, would this not be an indication that the older generation took internal force production more seriously than later practitioners? I will say ive heard this from several people and also felt it; im curious as to what your take on it is? thanks.

[@HaiYangChannel]

Old masters used less physical movement in their force production? who told you that? I am not old, and I can do that too. But those kinds of demonstrations only happened between the old person and his students or people just wanted to taste that kind of experience. Internal force requires speed too. Sometimes, the movement is very small and subtle and there is speed and very fast speed of it. Otherwise, that will be a magic. Also, people are free to believe whatever they want to believe. But I have been practicing for decades and I had practiced with some of the most skilled masters, and I believe that they told me the truth... Also, this is just my opinion.

[@stillnessinmovement]

​@@HaiYangChannel you specifically mentioned in your discussion of master wang that he changed the method to be larger, and that the older masters used much smaller movement. I can find the quote if it's important to you. Zhang also talked about this, and showed me a bit of it. when i say old masters I mean the first couple generations, not just that they are old. I hear you about the dangerous discussion of chi, let's dodge that until we can communicate better. for now, let me just say that I am of the opinion that bagua has room to grow. and im interested in at least personally exploring these things, from many different perspectives, to find the universal truth behind this stuff. so far, I feel the most promising resources have been taoist work, rather than kung fu. I feel like a couple of generations of folks in china are very uncomfortable with the chi and meditation aspect of bagua, but honestly, that was what drew me. primarily the meditation. and its been more than I hoped for so far. after 20 years of study i feel im just getting started. i hope we can keep communicating if it's productive for both of us. in any event, thanks for sincerity and sharing. :-)

[@HaiYangChannel]

Great to know that you like meditation and I practice and teach it too. Also, please do not try to put your words into my mouth, who is the "master Wang" when did i said that the method to be larger? Sure it is important to me if you point out that I said that. Also, how do you know the practice of the first and the second generation maters practiced in a smaller form? and compared to what? You need to have a standard first, then make the claim. That is the basic academic attitude... Also, I am not arguing with anyone here, I just explain my opinion. Anything is productive when people communicate and nothing personal. Please do not take my opinion personally.

[@dirtpoorchris]

I found the best kung fu for training memory loss is to play guitar for 2 years I am starting to know where the sounds and patterns are and im starting to be remember more stuff.

[@HaiYangChannel]

interesting.

[@bugs4680]

will you teach me sir !!!!!

[@HaiYangChannel]

Sure, why not

[@bugs4680]

@@HaiYangChannel what are the requirements sir !!!!

[@bugs4680]

@@HaiYangChannel would you like to exchange emails