Elves, sinister tiny folk or beautiful haughty humans?

[@stevenklinden]

I suspect that the "elves don't need to sleep" thing comes from The Lord of the Rings, where it is said that Legolas "could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world."

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh nice! That seems to fit

[@mickmack1409]

I figured it had something to do with Mr. Spock from Star Trek the original series. Vulcans have pointes ears like elves. TOS ran from 1966 - 1969. Right round the time D&D was being created.

[@RedwoodRhiadra]

Yep, and it seems to be Ed Greenwood who brought that into official D&D, as it's been part of the Forgotten Realms setting from the beginning.

[@DM_Curtis]

In the OSE setting I'm working on, Elves cast Druid spells instead, and they may not be Lawful. They've had little-to-no contact with humans, so a PC elf is a real fish-out-of-water. (And the point of a fish-out-of-water story is that the "fish" brings something unique to the table, which elves do in spades.) Race-as-class is perhaps the most under-appreciated mechanic in all of D&D -- it really allows demi-humans to feel very alien, as opposed to just a way to get +2 DEX for your rogue and act like a snooty human. Of course it's no guarantee a player will RP accordingly, but the mechanics can only do just so much.

[@BanditsKeep]

Very cool!

[@RoninCatholic]

Elves with Druid spells are exactly how I'd do it, and then I'd not have human Druids at all. I always felt the OD&D way Elves and Wizards used the same spells was redundant and didn't feel very fitting - if not exactly the Druid list, something similar.

[@DM_Curtis]

@@RoninCatholic ose now has a wood elf supplement that does just that.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

I like your idea about elves healing more slowly. It gives the idea that their time is passing, the world is changing and not for them. It also makes "the elvish healing arts" more interesting: some elves are taught, or just have, access to healing magic, to help take care of their people ... and they may lose it if they use it on a non-elvish person.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@SimonAshworthWood]

I’d like to see an RPG comedy in which a newbie who is a big LOTR fan joins an RPG group and is very set on playing an elf. The GM and the other players all ask the newbie, “are you sure?” And “really?” And the player is very determined, with an image of Tolkienesque ubermensch elves in their mind, and says “yes! I’m sure! Can we stop talking about it? I’m not going to change my mind!” And then the newbie is given a pre-gen elf character… only, in this game, elves are goofy little toy makers like Santa’s elves or Dobby, in the Harry Potter stories. 🤣

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh man, 😂

[@SusCalvin]

Most new folks ask if you mean fairys, LotR elves, little gnome-dudes or something else. We used melnibonéans as simply reskinned elfs.

[@BanjoSick]

That was the story of my first game of AD&D back in the 90’s. Big Tolkien enthusiast, realized I did not like elves and dwarves as portrayed in D&D. Long story short, I stopped playing D&D after that, switched to Merp and never looked back.

[@anthonybird546]

Regarding the "go into Faerie" to recharge spells or heal, I'd judge that if the party is in a "Mythic Underworld" type of dungeon - typically megadungeons - they can recover their spells and heal as per the rules since it is a kind of Faerie-realm or realm of the gods.

[@BanditsKeep]

That makes sense

[@Meeeeeeeestery]

The changeling concept is fascinating indeed. That would make the elves such a fascinating enemy to men realms as well! Elves as enemies, like the frost ones in Dolmenwood, give the campaign such an interesting tone. One thing I dislike in demihumans is their infravision because to me only evil ones should see in the dark, and I appreciate so much that White Box doesn't mention this feature.

[@BanditsKeep]

I agree with this, I tend to lean towards no type of dark or infra vision when I am running games not RAW. Otherwise I’ll go with whatever the game provides.

[@RoninCatholic]

I always enjoyed the idea of playing a changeling. "Yeah when I grew up a bit I found out my family wasn't related to me by blood, some elf stole one of their children and left me in their place. They're my real family, though, even if I've got pointy ears and do magic nonsense." Then at some point during an encounter with NPC elves, meeting the human I was swapped for as one of their warriors.

[@BlackJar72]

I always treated elves as happy-go-lucky, the kind of being that might spend their time "feasting and frolicking." In many ways this fits, since they may not usually have the same concerns as short-lived beings with less access to magical solutions. Also, this might work very well as a kind of emotional defense when dealing with short-lived acquaintances and a changing world -- living in the moment and avoiding being too serious as an alternative to dwelling on all that has come and gone, and to becoming too attached to those who won't be around for very long.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice! I like that

[@SusCalvin]

In our campaign, the elves purchased $1000 worth of cocaine recently. Reasons unknown, the PCs didn't ask questions.

[@glenndean6]

I go for haughty, inscrutable, deliberate, patient, and relatively unemotional as suits very long-lived creatures. Which is why they don't get too friendly with humans (too changeable, too hurried), dwarves (too serious and down to earth) or halflings (too happy-go-lucky). Elves are sticks-n-the-mud, but then you don't come across them too much.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice, I like that, this can sometimes create elves that seem almost callus- but we as humans rarely think of the lives of squirrels

[@Grimlore82]

So elves are Vulcans in your game? 😆 Sorry couldn't resist.

[@tkc1129]

Ahhh my dude, you just reminded me of the start of the only D&D novel trilogy that I have read. In the first couple of chapters, the main character leaves Evermeet and is shocked to learn that many of his old companions he had when he last went out adventuring have died or retired. He was only in Evermeet for "a short while" to finish some education. Like, he knew elves aged more slowly, but it didn't really hit home until he sees an old friend for the first time. I really should do a sessions 0 version of this when people choose to pay elves who have interacted with humans.

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s a great idea and intro for a campaign!

[@dsan05]

Elves from the Domenwood setting (Gavin Norman, using Old School Essentials)

[@BanditsKeep]

Dolmenwood has some really great ideas for sure

[@SimonAshworthWood]

Thanks for the fairy folk of Ireland article link. I enjoy reading about those old myths. 😀 They inspire me to add things to my D&D games. Because they are old and people really believed in them, I find them more inspiring and immersive than modern D&D accessories on the topic.

[@BanditsKeep]

I agree - the older tales have a certain simplicity that really gets my mind going

[@antonyball9849]

I think you'd really like the British folklore feel of the Dragon Warriors game. It has heaps of this kind of stuff, and one of the early adventures is about the fae kidnapping someone. There's heaps of awesome folklore in there that I think aligns with the way you talk about your games. I've really enjoyed going through your catalog of videos after finding them recently!

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@RoninCatholic]

"Elves age slower so they heal slower" is how it works if it's based on time applying to them differently in general, like how Ents in Lord of the Rings perceive themselves speaking to other races on their own level much like forced chipmunk chatter speeds. Aging is the _result of_ your natural healing process not keeping pace with the constant passive damage that you face by existing - as damage outpaces healing, you gradually get permanent "scars" as it were, with painful and stiff joints, wrinkly skin, and atrophied muscles. The _cause of_ an elf's long lifespan could start from a place of effective regeneration - that's why Wolverine in the X-Men is over a century old despite looking to be only in his 40s or so (and indeed, he'd likely live even more than a couple centuries without his bones being infused with a toxic metal to reinforce their supports; not indefinitely, but a lot longer).

[@RoninCatholic]

"Elves heal slower" could instead be replaced with "elves age faster _while recovering from injury_ than mortals do in general, but don't age when not explicitly ill or wounded" . Gives you the fair-faced ageless rulers who've managed to keep themselves out of harm's way, but also means your player character elves just by the nature of their job wind up aging alongside their companions and acquiring cool looking scars.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting!

[@gommechops]

Katherine Kerr's Deverry cycle books did interesting things with elves, especially later when she started exploring the otherworld.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’ll have to check those out

[@paavohirn3728]

The sleep thing is at least in the ADD 2nd Ed elf handbook. Reverie they call it I think.

[@BanditsKeep]

Ah, nice, thanks!

[@edwardbacchetta9092]

I just found your channel a week ago and I’ve been chewing up your amazing content.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! Welcome aboard!

[@rolanejo8512]

Bingeful indeed.

[@brianevans9719]

Good video and an excellent explanation on how different elves are from humans. I have quite a number of books on the fey written in the 1800's and you hit the mark very well on the the elf as a fey rather than a demi-human or Tolkien type. I really enjoyed your talk.

[@BanditsKeep]

Excellent- those types of books are always interesting to me! I’d much rather read folklore than D&D lore so to speak.

[@j-henry7391]

I think DND players would do very well to read more fairy tales instead of modern fantasy, they wouldn't get so cranky about balance if they read some of these stories, especially with regards to high-level players and such, there's a lot of fairy stories about people with OP weapons and such, and it's fun to hear stories about just how they mess with people

[@retrodmray]

Great one again, Bandit! World-building, and system-interpretation along the way, can be really fun and engaging for some players, especially if the DM has that huge interest...brings the players in deeper. When the DM gets excited about it, typically the players do as well!

[@BanditsKeep]

This is true I feel like it needs to come from or at least be supported by the DM

[@everthingtotal8798]

You are the only other DM I have ever come across that seems to have considered this at length. In my games, Elves are fairies: They live mainly in the Feylands. They are not at all demi-humans. They are like dreams and shadows; things that the waking consciousness cannot fully comprehend--and certainly does not see! If they enter the world of men, they are invisible. Dreamscape entities who walk hidden in the open, unless one's eyes are awakened by magic. Who knows how long they live. Should they steal a child, it disappears in the mists of time. What is left in its place is a thing from the beyond; a mysterious form with unknown origins.

[@BanditsKeep]

Wow, I love this!!

[@everthingtotal8798]

@@BanditsKeep And I love your channel!! Thanks for doing it because it is very important to us viewers. It's like a little gem we both find and admire with each video you create. Your take on game play can help people to shift into something much deeper than a maxed out build unleashed on individuals at the table. At it's very best, gaming is a profound expression and experience.

[@krispalermo8133]

twenty some years ago I had to teach my 12 year old cousins, all five of them 3.5e rules. They wanted gnome wizard " illusionist"3/druids3/rogue2 firing wands off like Harry Potter fighting against goblins druids3/sorcerer4/rogue2 ( Illusionary insulting Larp rubber band fight contests in the house with five 12yo boys and a seventy year old grandmother that use to work in a bar. The trash talking and insults were .. legendary.) 3.5e CR monster rules a npc class Commoner clearing out their barns, houses, farm fields from chickens/ravens, rats/rabbits, large to giant insects will become 7th-level single class PC. Connan the Barbarian/ Destroyer setting, .. Dwarves move around alot to keep humans trying to torture the Secrets of long life or immortality out of them. a.) Smith, cleric3/fighter2/rogue3, CR: 8 .. they level cap themselves by spending full xp to gp value in creating magic items. b.) bandit, fighter2/rogue3, CR:5 Elf regarded as forest ghosts or Fae, due to their long life .. a.) Spellcaster 10th-level, wizard6/loremaster4, plus fighter2/rogue3/ranger2., CR:17 ( We normally can pull off epic level 20th-level plus campaigns.) 2.) Ghostly light and thunder rolls through the night forest, .. Conan, " What sorcery is this ?!" Road guide, " Just the gnomes and goblins are having their insulting contests again, nothing to worry about." Conna, " .. Crom .."

[@everthingtotal8798]

@@krispalermo8133 Very cool!!

[@krispalermo8133]

@@everthingtotal8798 Thank you. I played other game system back in the day that were more skill base, so you could have the character type of, " I'm a lover and not a fighter." High skill ranking in Piloting or Bluff but hardly any skill in Firearms or basic combat. Problem complain with 3.5e is all those skill point and ranks slow PC creation down. But we ran games of mixing NPC classes with stander classing to have PC with low combat attack bonuses but high skill ranking and saving throws. It was Role playing and not hack & slash. Then we did things such as having skill:( specialized weapon style tactics) every five ranks grants user a +2 bonus on five weapon tactics. a.) Parry +2 b.) Sword thrust/ in your face +2 atk/dmg. c.) Hollywood movie Zorro tip of the sword cut to remove clothing or jewelry, +2 to hit, but hitting an item out of the hand is still a minus 6 penalty. d.) +2 to avoid thrust. e.) trip cut, +2atk/dmg. Sword fighter gets pin down by shield expert, but axe expert just starts to hack through the wooden large shield cause that is what axes do. 2.) With 3rdE statement any PC with the base needed stat to cast a given type of magic can learn the skill ranks needed with time. So saying your PC is going to hang out at a wizard school for the winter can learn arcane magic. But this concept any creature/monster with a charisma score of 10 or higher got one to four levels of sorcerer for CR/Xp value boost and a few once or couple times per day spell effect actions. Worgs, larger and above average intelligence wolves, run as stander or multi-class for higher challenge .. rogue3rd, for high stealth stalking, evasion from fire attacks, and flanking/trip damage, calf/leg bite for 1d4+1,+2d6dmg or just roll 3d6dmg. fighter2nd/ two bonus feats such as Power Attack, and Improved Initiative. Ranger2, few more ranks in stealth, favorite enemy tracking, atk/dmg bonus to a single prey. Go with normal or silly targets such as deer stalker, rabbit pounce, or even fisher. Along with bird dogs where they can get a duck right at the moment they take flight. Then top off with a couple of levels of sorcerer for spells of True Strike, Shield, Speed Boost, Scare., Aromr +4, which ever spell that fits the wolf's personality. Total: +9 CR adjustment. Same bases for werewolves, my group played Whitewolf/World of Darkness( WoD): vampire, werewolf, mage the awakening, and changeling the lost. So give werewolves an extra three levels of druid, So werewolves would be a 12th-level adjusted PC with a +14CR on average trained adult just by hunting to feed themselves and rough housing, with a bunch of self made 2nd-level spell magic items. This may seem like over kill, and the werewolf will have a bunch of extra hp. But they can easily be hit by silver or magic weapons and if all PCs have +3 levels of rogue and four or six of them manage to flank/surround/dog pack a werewolf with short swords or silver studded clubs you are looking at 12d6/18d6 per round of dmg to the werewolf. Remember once tripped, target suffers Prone +4/flanking+2 ( +/-6) to their defenses. Along with shield wall preventing bite attacks, werewolves can very easily get murdered by N/PC multi class rogue3/warrior2/commoner2, bab:+5, flanking club dmg 3d6. " stander militia member at the age of 20 years old." Sorry for the essay, hope you like the ideals. But when dealing with 12th to 15th-level single or multi class PCs, we just have to come up with combo classes to provide challenges and Xp awards. Most between 7th- to 12th-level multiclass npcs, bandit/ highway man being rogue3/fighter2/ranger2, CR:7 base. Having your PCs attacked by goblins with sorcerer4/rogue3/ranger2, CR:9 " fairy goblins." a.) ranger, .. Wilderness Lore checks to survive off the land. b.)rogue, .. stealth and flanking dmg. c.) sorcerer, .. each goblin has the item creation feat: Craft Wondrous Item, and using 3.5e rules from the DMG for making permanent magic traps. So one goblin has a wand/rod/club of Invisibility, another has an illusion spell to cover up everyone's smell, one has Stink Cloud. Think of all the fun you can have with 2nd-level wizard/sorcerer spells. Alter Self, increase or reduce character mass/height by 50%, so a 3ft goblin can grow to 4.5ft tall or reduce down to 18inches/1 and a half feet tall. Let them think they are getting mob by a group of mites or atomies. The spell also grants short wings for clumsy flight class:C, but with Levitation they can have something closer to true wing flight. A winged goblin fairy 18in tall with a 3 to 4ft wing span ridding a goblin frog wearing Boots of Striding & Sprinting that is 4.5ft long.

[@SimonAshworthWood]

“Everyone playing changeling elves would be weird”? Well, that’s good! Elves are meant to be weird, eh? 😉

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@Jergal1]

The first time I read about Elf not sleeping was back at AD&D 2nd edition in The Complete Book of Elves. Colin McComb talked about an ability called The Reverie. This was in 1992

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@RoninCatholic]

My go-to TTRPG pre-gen characters to serve as examples for new players to pick up are the Fellmoon Siblings, one half-elf brother for every class (except the Knight, who is a girl), each exemplifying the most straightforward interpretation of that class. There's a note when playing any of them that NPCs should occasionally mistake them for one of the others, who was just in that town/dungeon not long ago on an adventure. This also lets a table of players try out new characters if a bad roll kills one of the siblings. It's been years since I touched the write-ups, which so far I've only done in GURPS; I had a Barbarian, Bard, Innkeeper, Ranger, Cleric, and Knight but didn't get around to the Wizard, Martial Artist, Ninja, Druid, Holy Warrior, Artificer, Musketeer, Thief, and Swashbuckler. Their father was a pure elf Bard, who fell in love with and married a human woman and retired from adventure for about a century (20-30 years for the kids to grow up and become adventurers in their own rights, then the last remaining five or six decades of his wife's "tragically short" lifespan). This gave him a lot of insight he never would have had as a bachelor, and of course gave him one of elf culture's most cherished treasures: _a story to write sad songs about_ .

[@davidrodemaker1102]

Elves and sleep probably has it's root with Legolas (there's a bit of text during the chase after Merry & Pippen after the breaking of the Fellowship). The first time I think it was codified in D&D was the old POV articles from Dragon Magazine by Roger Moore.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool! I’ll have to see if I can find those articles

[@davidrodemaker1102]

@@BanditsKeep - They're "The Elven Point of View" (insert race) and matched to a companion article that introduced the expanded demi-human pantheons for the first time as well. I believe they all collected in one of the Best of Dragon anthologies.

[@erikmartin4996]

Elves are the Sunday drivers of the OSR world 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 hysterical Another great video

[@BanditsKeep]

With the top down enjoying the drive

[@paavohirn3728]

I really like the idea that an elf would age differently depending on where they grow up. It's great character story wise if they can grow up with other PCs and in the same historical time. But also cool if they could grow up to adulthood in 100 or whatever years of that makes sense for the story of they grow up among elves or in the fairy world.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yeah, that would be cool - imagine those two elves meeting!

[@TheProphessionalGeek]

Elf’s not needing sleep is at least as old as 2e AD&D, in the Complete Book of Elves. The ability was called Reverie in that edition. With the Reverie, elves enter a sleep like trance where they perfectly relieve memories of their past. Some elves will enter the reverie for fun, loosing themselves for days remembering pleasant memories. This weird magical sleep is also a reason given for why Elves may have their resistance to sleep and charm spells.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@krystal2423]

You mention elves who age slower may also heal more slowly, that is interesting, and maybe that ties into why they read and move slower. Since they know they take a long time to heal, they move more deliberately always watch their surroundings carefully, they are hypervigilant due to the fact they don't want to get hurt, and so people misinterpret this as elves having better eyes than humans.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting 🤔

[@stevenpeterson8582]

As far as game lore and the gaming origin of elves not needing to sleep, I think it goes back to AD&D 2nd edition. The Complete Book of Elves supplement went into great detail on the "elven trance" and described the elven rest as a meditative state instead of true sleep. This was offered up as an explanation for the racial trait of being immune to sleep spells. By the time of 3rd edition, the descriptive fluff regarding the elven trance got merged with the mechanical trait of immunity to sleep spells and translated into "elves don't sleep" and put into rule the idea that they could meditate for 4 hours to get the same benefit that humans get from 8 hours sleep.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, thanks

[@patrickrobles1036]

In my low fantasy homebrew (that I'm turning into a zine) elves have a lifespan similar to humans, but infants gradually leech the personality and memories of the same sex parent. The resulting being is quite different, but often continues identifying as the parent, which leads outsiders to believe that they are incredibly long lived. The primary tension in the setting is between magic and technology. The Faye (Elves, goblins, and some humans) can use magic, while Earthkin (dwarves, halflings, and most humans) cannot. Lots of random tables to determine what happens when a PC tries to cross that barrier...

[@BanditsKeep]

That sounds very cool!

[@JS-sy7ym]

Another enjoyable video! I first read about elves not sleeping in the AD&D2e Complete Handbook of Elves. It stated that elves don’t sleep, but enter a lucid dreaming state called a “reverie.”

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh cool, I did not play 2e back in the day, I have run a little bit since then, but I guess I just didn’t notice that. Probably because the stuff I ran was in a “Conan the barbarian“ type of vibe with humans only.

[@JS-sy7ym]

@@BanditsKeep The Complete Handbooks were full of stuff, not all of which was all that valuable. Most of it was just to sell more product, I feel. I remember the elf one being popular because it had the Bladesinger kit. My favourite kit was the spell filcher, a mage/thief that stole spells from wizards.

[@Goblinerd]

@@JS-sy7ym Personally, I find a lot of value in most of the Complete Handbooks for the races, for the flavor and setting stuff, not the kits and mechanical aspects. Reverie is one example of the things I love about that line of products.

[@BlackJar72]

I first heard it from Middle Earth Roleplaying (MERP), and assumed it actually came from Tolkien (I've since learned the rationale for this was very loose).

[@robchristensen9678]

I’m guessing that the whole Elves not needing sleep started (from a rules POV) with AD&D giving them 90% resistance to sleep & charm. Not sure what specific folklore or literature inspired that.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes not sure either - we never played that way with AD&D

[@evanmc.7557]

Elves are our ancient ancestor spirits

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool idea

[@evanmc.7557]

@@BanditsKeep its what the ancients people of northern europe believed. i'll try to ofind the video/article i watch or read. great content btw.

[@BlackJar72]

It fits well with the apparent origin of the hollow hills where the Sidhe folk (or elves and trolls in Denmark) lived as actually neolithic burial mounds and likely sites of ancestor worship. In later ages those origins were forgotten, especially with new peoples that came into the area, but it was remembered that mysterious otherworldly beings were said to live there.

[@JazzyJacksJokeShack]

Something I thought about alot lately is that I think most dnd players just assume fantasy means elves and dwarves and dragons (and I love those very much and like playing in that world a lot) but then forget that thats literally just tolkiens world with some extras. It would be like if people assumed sci fi is light sabers and the force. But in order to make something truly special you gotta break out of that idea. Some of my favorite of fantasy growing up were totally different, yknow, Adventure Time, Undertale, Avatar Last Airbender. All fantasy but no elves. I LOVE Zelda, and its a totally unique fantasy world at this point. It takes a lot more creativity, but for dms who spend so much time world building just to make the 18474700000th tolkien spin off world, it will pay off. :^)

[@BanditsKeep]

I agree totally - I was just having a chat with someone who hated all the “new” monstrous classes and it made we wonder what’s the difference between having dwarves and elves vs goblins and pixies or whatever - fun worlds can really be made when we break the mold

[@Owlbear579]

That's a great idea. Do a BX one shot with your listeners. Give us "regulars" a break from all the character death..lol.

[@BanditsKeep]

🗡

[@fiachhoffman9590]

Daniel, wouls you be able to do a video like this for sub-humans (goblinoids, orcs/trolls/ogres, kobolds/salamanders/dragonkin)? I have this idea for presenting goblins as a fungal infection, of sorts, but I'm not sure how to go about it...would love your thoughts!

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Those ultra slow elves are exactly the elves I use

[@BanditsKeep]

Very cool

[@SusCalvin]

Symbaroum used a mix of isolationist wood elfs and baby-stealing faeries who wants to toss all adventurers out of the Forest. The elves you can play in the game are the changelings the elves leave in exchange. You have absolutely no idea what the elk-riding weirdos in the Forest are doing but you have traces of their abilities.

[@BanditsKeep]

Ah yes, that setting was very cool - game itself did t grab me so I only played a handful of games.

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep The setting is pretty nice for hoboism. You are in a points of light setting, the old lands of the empire are dying. You're in a new frontier with unexplored wilderness just around the corner. Bums like you can make cash exploring the forest if you watch out for elfs, barbarians, weird mutants and witches. You mount expeditions from the border towns into the weirdness.

[@JB0528]

I really like what you've got going on here. I have my own game world and have changed halflings up from their hobbit roots to be much more like Athas halflings except who dwell in jungles. The idea could work nicely with some of your elf ideas and I may even have to write them an ancient history as half-elves.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice!

[@Joshuazx]

Have you ever played or researched Basic Fantasy RPG? It's a rules light retroclone that combines old school mechanics like d6 rolls, race / class restrictions, Save v. DRay, DBreath, etc., but it also has modern mechanics like ascending armor class.

[@BanditsKeep]

I have - it’s a cool system, just not my favorite. Though you can’t beat the price!

[@RoninCatholic]

Germanic Alfs: Small pranksters who are invisible, and shoot things with their poisoned arrows, which are the cause of most illnesses (especially uncontrolled belching fits; "alf" in German meant "burp"). Scandinavian Alfar: Large, fair-skinned humanoid spirits who are imitating the gods Frey and Freyja in appearance and presumably had a different baseline appearance before being collectively given to the twins as subjects. Can pass through walls. Tolkien: Liked how elves looked in Scandinavian myth, but made them more "solid" as it were, bringing them down to Earth. They're more powerful than Men and Dwarves, as Men and Dwarves are than Hobbits, but are lesser than Maia. Middle Earth wasn't designed for multiplayer balance, LOL.

[@larsbangjensen5332]

Great take and perspective on the elves. I like the witcher take on the elves and also Symbaroum.. but I am perhaps biased as a Scandinavian.. in short elves should be a bit scary.. frolicking and feasting.. but still scary..

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@SusCalvin]

You can play elves in Symbaroum, right? But you play the changelings the elves leave behind in exchange for a human child. You don't know anything about the real elfs and most likely don't care much for them.

[@gendor5199]

Aging is part of cells reproducing and getting "worn out", it's like a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, and eventually those cells start being worn out, as such, elves could maybe not have that happen for some reason.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@paavohirn3728]

I've been very adamant about how race as class is silly and I appreciate that OSE advanced has the option of removing that (not that it's too difficult to house rule). But, I think I love how it works in Dolmenwood where it makes more sense how the non - humans have their flavor. I also generally prefer human centric games anyway.

[@BanditsKeep]

This is an interesting perspective. So in “generic fantasy” elves are just like humans (can be all classes etc) but those who grow up in a magical wood all seem the same (mechanically).... this can certainly make sense, and elf growing up in “human” society perhaps has a more open world view.

[@austinreed7343]

Lion and Dragon/Dark Albion elves may be right up your alley.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@Finding_Arcadia]

I know this video is 2 years old, but my favorite thing I've ever done with elves is a combination of things, though it is very campaign specific. First I took the name "elf" away, because I felt it held too much power over the players in what their expectations were, and instead called them Elds (minor change, but enough to make the players from new expectations), also dramatically reduced their number to about 300 total and made it so that when they die they immediately reincarnate with whispers of their former life, that's why they seem ageless and immortal. Then I made it so that their entire race was designed by the gods to replace divinity, so they are collectively being trained in magic and realms of power and produce insanely powerful artifacts and arcanum. Then I killed god. Now all of the elves were crippled with anguish and depression while they're mourning their dead god-mommy, their destiny stolen from them, and their lives ruined. So then the entirety of the elven population committed ritualistic suicide to honor their god, which caused an entire new generation to reincarnate, completely ignorant of the ways of their forebearers. So now we get Elds wandering around in elden ruins just as flabbergasted as to the magical technology as the humans are, though they have an inmate understanding even if they don't know how it works, and gives the option of leaving 2-3 ancient Elds that didn't commit suicide to be the "Speaker of the Dead" or something similar. It helps create the idea of mystical impossible to understand ancient races, but also gives players the ability to play these creatures without having to gatekeep them on how they're roleplayed

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s really interesting, have some kind of mass extinction and rebirth definitely solves some of the “long lived” concerns and allows as you say free reign on how the player runs the elf! I may try something like this for a PC race in the future, thanks!

[@Finding_Arcadia]

@@BanditsKeep Hope it works for you! Ive been using alternatives to it ever sense, I just loved the idea too much to not make a core aspect of Elves from now on. I'm positive I stole it from something or someone, but couldn't tell you where to be honest. Best guess is Witcher/Dragon Age Elves mixed with ancient Egyptian history (ancient race that lost it's glory and now live in ruins and shadow of their former greatness).

[@nosaurian]

This is a really Great video. and I like that it's Not even Tolkienian at All, it Just applies to most D&D played today. Much of the work I've done recently is related to this, and I've realized why elves were sort of powerful in the oldschool games, but I feel that their disadvantages were poorly comprehended and little explained, but of course the slow advancement/level limits balanced all out. what do you think about some players having the same recurring elf character through one or several campaigns put next to other players with mortal characters that constantly change after so many sessions?

[@BanditsKeep]

That sounds fun

[@brunocolin960]

My GM mantra about elves: make them more like Tolkien's, less than Jackson's.

[@BanditsKeep]

🧝‍♀️

[@Grimlore82]

OSE? I need this in my life

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes, great version of BX

[@Grimlore82]

Now I am waiting on the OSE Rules Tome to arrive! Exaulted Funeral for the win!

[@freddaniel5099]

Thanks for another thoughtful video. Elves and the other demi-humans are an interesting subject that can generate lots of discussion. I personally like the way Poul Anderson portrays them in Three Hearts and Three Lions and in The Broken Sword. Note: AD&D elves lack souls and can't be raised from dead like humans and other demi-humans. To me that changes their morality - are they "amoral" like in many fairy tales? PC races should fit the setting and thus elves, etc. don't belong in every milieu, imo. Hyperborea is good example. Q: is Elric of Melnibone an elf? Fascinating topic! 👍

[@BanditsKeep]

Good insight there. Right, is Elric an elf? This seems to be a common discussion

[@ricardojuanlopeznaranjo6651]

@@BanditsKeep Indeed he is. Melniboneans are Elves. Other elf characterf from Moorcock is Corum Jhaelen Irsei. The Mabdem are humans and the Vadhag, his race, are elves. Both Melniboneans and Vadhag are descendents from the Eldren, the difference is that Vadhag are aligned with Law and Melniboneans with Chaos. Obviously the Hyperboreans in AS&SH are the Melnibonenas of the setting and thus, they can be played like elves (no need of special rules for them, but I think they should have some different flavour from the rest of the humans in the setting).

[@ripper1157]

I love your content please continue

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You! 😊

[@Tomeroche]

In my homebrew setting "Elves" as the playable race are in fact "half-elves" with the Almafae being the true elves and actual fae creatures. They were absolutely horrible little monsters and exterminated prior to the recorded history due to the cruelty they inflicted on the Elves who were born from their trysts with mortals and often used as slaves or playthings. Only the High Elves actually liked them due to being more favored and not treated as cruelly. Essentially, Elves are half fae, they're nature as timeless fickle spirits leads to oddities like dedicating years to perfecting a craft only to give it up in a day and forget it all in favor of learning some new petty skill. They also can live forever but tend to die after a few hundred years of literal boredom as while humans settle into routines and habit this is actually deadly to elves who quickly lose their sense of self and eventually just fade away as they forget their own existence.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting

[@SimonAshworthWood]

Elves loving finely crafted things doesn’t mean they are snobby. They are simply fans of beauty….

[@BanditsKeep]

True - but “finely crafted” implies a certain level of Sophistication vs beauty which could be a flower

[@RoninCatholic]

@@BanditsKeep I've never known an elf who doesn't like flowers.

[@rolanejo8512]

Does that mean that a Dwarf, Halfling, and Fighter video are in tge works?

[@BanditsKeep]

Perhaps, if I can think of something to say. 😊

[@DireHammer]

In my world they are two types, both are mechanically identical and only differ in their stance towards non-elves. Elves were the first race and the only race for an unknown length of time (elves don't keep records so they don't know.) When the new races appeared a schism appeared between those who accept the presence of the newcomers (though they are still isolationist) and those who resent the new races. They believe the world is an elven birthright and work to wipe others (mostly humans) from the face of the Earth. They are not separated by good and evil, all elves are true neutral. Not because they believe in maintaining "the balance" but because they don't fully comprehend the concepts of morals and ethics. They are neutral for the same reason beasts are neutral. In later edition terms they are "unaligned." They are all "druids" or multi-classed druids, they are inherently magical beings. No iother race can be a druid, it is essentially the elf class,.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@Frederic_S]

Maybe the right word to describe an elf is unworldly. An elf simply describes to other concepts than a human does, I guess.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@erikmartin4996]

Can we get in on your DCC game?

[@BanditsKeep]

I will be running a DCC game for Spawn of Cyclops Con - I’ll give details in the next video

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

What a ridged social structure they must develop

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@SusCalvin]

A lot of the elf realms in Birthright are Chaotic. BR elves are more fey-like. Elf realms have a long-sitting monarch. The monarch has a lot of power, the other elfs often don't use the checks out of disorganisation. Elfs really follow charismatic leadership.

[@SimonAshworthWood]

AD&D was very popular among adults, but I notice more youtubers taking about BX & BECMI than AD&D…. Perhaps the AD&D players aren’t making KZbin videos because they are too busy dealing with the huge number of AD&D rules. 😉

[@BanditsKeep]

😂 as a kid I played way more AD&D than BX - I just prefer BX now

[@sunsin1592]

OSE has a changeling class in one of their new supplements.

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh! That sounds cool I’ll have to go look

[@Goblinerd]

@@BanditsKeep I don't know if it can be found anywhere else, but it's included in the first issue of Carcass Crawler: The official Old-School Essentials zine. However, this inaugural issue is a kickstarter exclusive.

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh! I must have that then as I backed the kick starter, I’ll have to look through my PDFs LOL

[@al2642]

Without saying that maybe, in a medieval setting, people and society were more uniform. But may be an utter bollock in shooting at random XD

[@BanditsKeep]

I think regions, even today, create very (superficially) similar people

[@SimonAshworthWood]

What about logical space elves? E.g. Spock? 😉

[@BanditsKeep]

Could be fun!

[@Darkwintre]

Is it possible to run a character whose a malformed elf? One who for reasons unrevealed is born within the Feywild, but instead of being more fey this is actually reversed so they have the appearance of a particularly plain human? Is that a viable choice?

[@BanditsKeep]

I think anything your table agrees on is a viable choice. In the book “broken sword” one of the main characters is a human raised in the elf land s

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

Elves: Sinister haughty humans. 😀

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@SentientSoup]

My view on demihumans, and the reason there are no cleric character class in their societies and how I present them in my world is this: They are not human and therefore don’t think nor perceive as humans do and they do not pray to gods. Elves are born of magic and live so long that humans perceive them as immortal. They revere their monarchs, the natural world, the open sky and the elements of air, water and wood. Being born of magic, they can cast yet without the need to study a spell book. Since it is more a force of will, they use Charisma as their magic related ability score. The long lived Dwarves revere their ancestors, and being creators and builders, they hold dear the elements of earth, fire and metal. Hin(Halflings) are born from the land itself and revere their elders, hearth, home and agriculture. Not one of these do they worship as they do not see the world nor worlds as we humans do. They put all of their belief i. Themselves and their societies rather than an outer worldly being.

[@BanditsKeep]

Really nice world building!

[@SusCalvin]

Elves in Chronopia are bored. You have eaten your favourite foods a million times and grown tired of it. You've had most okay food for at least half a million times, and it's a little stale. But larch vomit, that still tastes fresh and almost exciting. You've had larch vomit where you feed it stuff and make it vomit a sauce base 2265 times, but that still means the crap triggers a reaction from you.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@scottmarsh2991]

Elves aren’t Human. They’re extra terrestrial too. Take off the flowing tresses and behold the 70s space face! Read Dunsany! Elves come from a different world where time itself works differently. Elves tend to be “Chaotic” because they generally aren’t full citizens of “Lawful” Human empires, which Elves live long enough to watch come and go. Besides, Elf society is more concerned with concealing and conserving its havens rather than building and expanding empires anyway. The kind of ethno-nationalism that drives Human empires is absent from most of Elf culture, because their original “homeland” is in fact another world (Faerieland).

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@krootmen]

These are great world building ideas but if elves are used as primary player characters then i dont think it make a fun game

[@BanditsKeep]

Why not? Should all PCs be the same?