Illusions in D&D

[@CaptCook999]

Had a player who said that he was going to disbelieve everything. The DM informed him that if he did that then he would automatically fail any saving throws because he didn't protect himself at all. The player changed his mind.

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s what I would do

[@thereluctanthireling]

Congratulations on 20k, this is the best old-school D&D channel by far.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@EltaninVintius]

You're my go-to channel for DM advice nowadays. Never miss an upload. Congrats on the 20k, here's to 100k!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! I appreciate it

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

8:47 Reminds me of that quote from Stephen King. "I know ther is no monster under my bed. I also know that as long as I keep my feet covered, it can't get me." Sometimes belief exists in spite of conviction. And yes, if there is anything you've covered that you'd like to reconsider, reinforce, clarify, etc, I think that'd be a great idea. You are an insightful gamer.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! And yes, that quote is perfect

[@MarkMcMillen2112]

I believe illusions are one of the most difficult concepts in the game to both play and adjudicate meaningfully. I know I've messed it up as often as I've gotten it right. Thanks for the ideas and please keep them coming. And yes, I agree that revisiting past ideas is a great thing. I've changed my mind about topics before. Plus I just really, really appreciate your content.

[@kendiamond7852]

One of the most interesting aspects of a World where Illusions are known to be a thing, is when Illusions aren't present. Imagine a fantastic scene that a Character rejects as an Illusion just because they're absolutely convinced it is. It would make true skeptics in a Magical World.

[@BanditsKeep]

This is an interesting angle!

[@alberthennen7370]

Definitely interested in situations where you have changed your mind about handling rules and in game situations ! I am mostly quite aligned with your views , and enjoy hearing your perspectives.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome I’ll go back and see what I can find

[@vincentmiller9555]

I appreciate how thought provoking all your videos are. In a few weeks I was planning on running a "magic mushroom" hallucinatory one shot for some friends and was contemplating how to convey the hallucinations. This is quite relevant.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, that sounds like it could be fun!

[@RuiSaltao]

Hey. Long time lurker here. Yes, I'd absolutely love for you to go back and discuss where you changed your opinion on something!

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome

[@finnfish5418]

Congrats on the 20k, Daniel. You deserve it. And as always, great video. Can't wait till the next one!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@michaelwest4325]

I really like your take on illusions, rely on the player's actions, attack the illusion, take illusionary damage, stand and deny it, the sword swings through you as only the illusion but the other players see it cleave you, etc. Very interesting if tricky to pulloff elegantly! Perhaps NPCs need the saving throw, perhaps using their intelligence or wisdom if not straight save vs spells to give some objectivity for them. But I like making a PC save real versus actual damage or death, afterall they do believe!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@strawpiglet]

Yeah, change of mind videos are a great idea. I like how you handle illusions. With my homebrew I don't even have saves, just a roll for NPCs to be suspicious or not. They are one of the most nebulous things in ADnD. I wonder id they've cleared them up in 5th.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good question - I’ll have to dust off my 5e books and take a look.

[@deeps2761]

One way to deal with illusions amongst other things is to have the players make saves/ability checks before each session and when you need to use one then just go through the list, it avoids the DM rolling dice (either for real or random although you can still roll random dice if you want). You can still have the players roll dice (I think its part of the fun) but for things that you don't want them to know its a 'thing' then using the pre-rolled scores works. That way when 5 characters walk into a room and 3 start reacting to an illusion and the other 2 are going "what the fu...." it can be roll played, Or at least the 2 that saved can attack the illusionist or whatever.

[@AdeBarrett]

I absolutely love your content Daniel. I've not found any other commentaries that come close to your analysis of the game. Whenever I feel my game is lacking I go through your videos and presto! Problem solved :D

[@BanditsKeep]

That is very kind. Thank you

[@TheEricthefruitbat]

Towards the end of my days of playing AD&D, I played an illusionist. It was a lot of fun. I think my DM tended to do it like you did.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, I never got to play one but it always seemed like a fun class

[@TheEricthefruitbat]

@@BanditsKeep In a sense, you could do anything with it. "Cast spells" that don't actually exist - within some limitations.

[@JeffreyJibson]

Something to consider (haven't tried): have each character throw their dice each time they enter an area/room as a standard procedure. This could be used for anything like a saving throw, surprise, trap, etc.

[@BanditsKeep]

It could but I try to keep the dice rolling to a minimum so it would feel strange at my current table.

[@nin0f]

yeah, but modifiers are different for different rolls. I can imagine this working with perception, but not much else

[@SusCalvin]

I think I would get tired of throwing dice every time they enter an area. Especially if I know I'm acting out staring at a meaningless number.

[@gridlock489]

I’ve been watching for a while now, and this is one of your finest insights (and videos) thus far. Having watched it I can’t help but draw the same conclusions about illusions!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@DungeonMasterQuest]

I really like your ideas on running the game, never miss an upload as well :) Keep 'em coming, and I surely would like to watch a Crown and Skull video.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@link090909]

Happy to be one of 20,000! Congrats on the milestone :) I really love your perspectives on gameplay. I've never run or played OSR games, I was in Dnd5e for a few years and have been GMing in Pathfinder 2e for the last year. Listening to your methods and reasoning really makes me think about the design choices of something as crunchy and rules-heavy like PF, so videos like these are invaluable

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@johnmagowan6393]

Congrats on 20k! I love your channel. I always get something tangible and useable!

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, Thank You!

[@israelmorales4249]

Hello Daniel! That's great advice you give. But you would have to adjust (like almost anything in the game) this homemade rule according to each table. Since there could be players who feel prevented from rolling the dice themselves. In any case, it's a great concept and I'll try to implement it. Thanks for the video!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure, every table has different needs and stuff they like

[@bobhastings6464]

I love to use illusion in my games, it adds a whole different level of suspense. See you at Clericon this year, I’m in your Saturday game. Cheers Bob

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, see you at CleriCon

[@apjapki]

Food for thought. Thanks. I probably lean the other way. If friendly NPCs have no supernatural sight powers or spells they always fail against any illusions, at least at first.

[@BanditsKeep]

That makes sense - if they have no reason to suspect an illusion (they are friendly)

[@timothylamont845]

Congrats on 20K!! I like how you and your group handle illusions. I do have players roll, but only if they can explain their rationale for doubting the illusion. If it makes sense, I roll secretly and give results. But I would love it if you had an example in your head already of a video you did about a topic where youve since changed your mind. Dont go digging. You probably have an example or two on your mind already. Those are the ones 👍

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! I definitely think I have an example - I’d just have to watch the old videos to see what I said 😂

[@LuizPaiva2077]

Congrats!! I aways recommend your channel to everyone I know that plays ttrpgs ❤🎉

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome thank you!

[@Alche_mist]

In the monster scenario, there is a case of "I don't believe it at all" vs "I believe it's illusionary". I can very much see a character flinch when the illusion - despite it being an illusion and they knowing it - swipes at them. The reflexes that brought them here don't ask much, they raise the shield because _something_ is swiping at them, real or not. And for the same reason, I very much can see "I think it's an illusion, but I still go in with my shield raised in case it isn't." being a very sound way to approach - even though you said it would mean "You believe the illusion". Not necessarily, just a case of risk minimization. They also may expect the illusion concealing _something else_ that's real and actually attacking them. (And yes, in this case, I can see the illusion doing psychic damage looking like the real physical one, with potential recovery once they are sure beyond any doubt it really is an illusion.)

[@BanditsKeep]

In those cases I would simply use a saving throw - that is up to the player and I give that option

[@CaptCook999]

I always wanted to play an illusionist but never did. I had always thought that to make your illusions more believable you could use items like a wand, staff, jewelry, etc to make it look more like an item was being used to cast the spell. It would actually be part of the illusion that the "wand" which is really a fancy looking stick, is where the fireball originates. Or use a "staff", gnarly wood walking stick, to create the illusion of summoning animals or creatures. A piece of jewelry which you appear to pull a piece off and blow the screaming ball of icey death towards the enemy. All just a part of the illusion!

[@BanditsKeep]

That definitely makes sense

[@mattdematteo2635]

Congrats on 20k Daniel!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@megarural3000]

If you are considering revisiting the old videos, don't go for outright remakes. I would rather say sample the old ideas that are being revisited, go over your new thoughts and if the old ideas still have relevance give an example or two. And congrats on 20k! You Captcorajus and Daddy Rolled a One are three of my favorite channels, keep up the good work!

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s a good idea - Thank You!

[@gommechops]

I like the idea of doing new videos as long as the originals remain in!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@thehubbleton]

This was really great.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@iugoeswest]

Illusions have always been a slippery slope. I remember specialist illusionist for 2nd edition being an option in the players handbook.

[@BanditsKeep]

In what way? Too powerful, or too hard to adjudicate? Or something else

[@underfire987]

Great videos as always

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@the-patient-987]

I think this houserule works very for the example you presented. But it could also mean a lot of extra work for the GM. I love the idea of only rolling dice when it's reasonable and the result will mean something. But if every time there's an illusion you expect the players to figure it out you're treading a fine line between player vs player character capabilities. And it also means that for every illusion a GM would have to think of ways for the characters to acquire information that gets them to that point of reasonable doubt. I think it can work wonders in a lot of cases but sometimes there's just a hidden door in a dungeon and it wouldn't be reasonable that there's information about it spread around.

[@BanditsKeep]

True - though for a hidden door I would simply treat it as a secret door - for finding it.

[@notoriousquinnb]

I really enjoyed this video, and feel that the combination of talking about the subject (illusions being handled without or with rolls or when to roll) along with an example of how you handled it with your group is very helpful. A lot of advice on how to do something falls flat to me without examples and explanations for why doing it that way is preferred.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! I figured this was a good time to discuss it. Because I had an example fresh in my mind.

[@itzybitzyspyder]

In 5e there are no saving throws for most illusions. There is an investigation check equal to the caster's spell save DC. I used a bunch of glyphs of warding(major illusion) and magic mouths that had almost every possible reaction/action as a trigger. Top it off with nystul's magic aura hiding the glyphs and we got a party! They honestly thought a gigantic golden dracolich was chasing them.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! It’s been a while since I’ve run 5e. So the PC would need to state they are investigating to get the full check, or you could use the passive number - I like that option

[@itzybitzyspyder]

@@BanditsKeep I have allowed perception as a substitute because I think it's just as valid. Creatures with scent would get advantage on either for exclusively sight based illusions in my opinion.

[@NateFinch]

I'd love to hear more about how to adjudicate player-created illusions. As a player, how a DM "runs" illusions can make or break the usefulness of those spells. With most other spells, the effects are well defined and easy to predict. A fireball will do xd6 damage, a web will be a certain size. But with illusions, whether or not they function at all is often entirely up to the DM. If I make an illusion of a wall in place of a doorway while I'm being chased, will my persuer assume I cast wall of stone and stop, or will they know there's no wall there and just assume they can run through? If I make an illusion of the heavy footsteps of an ogre coming down an underground passage, will the kobolds hear it and run away or will they ignore it because they think it's fake? How can a player figure that out before they waste their turn on a spell?

[@krispalermo8133]

N/pc runs full speed into a stone wall, and disappears. Catch, the runner at full speed makes a hard right turn once going through the wall. If perusers fail a dexterity check once passing through the wall, they hit the wall on the other side. Or fall into a pit.

[@vertexartist4500]

Congratulations!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@isaace8090]

My best illusion as a GM was taking Miami Vice plot lines, tweaking them, and placing them into my Stars Without Number game for 2.5 years without the players knowning.

[@BanditsKeep]

Ha ha, that’s awesome

[@solomani-42]

Good advice.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@Joshuazx]

Lot a value in this video for me

[@BanditsKeep]

Glad to hear!

[@EOTB1E]

Good video, Daniel

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@sleepinggiant4062]

There are players at my table that can separate player knowledge from character knowledge, the problem is, not all of them can. Yes, explain to them what they see. They don't detect it until it's examined closely. This is how I handle illusions if they come up. They very rarely do. This got me thinking. Say the characters walk into a room, and one wall is an illusion. In the room with the characters are monsters that attack the party. Behind the illusionary wall, others attack using ranged weapons. How would you handle that? Would you make them all know the wall was an illusion without a roll?

[@BanditsKeep]

If attacks were coming through the wall they would know that - I feel most groups would believe at that point it’s an illusion.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

@@BanditsKeep - I think that's how most would handle it. Would you make the wall transparent to them automatically, or make them roll?

[@srmillard]

excellent

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@jaytyler6203]

So this came up in game, a player put up a minor illusion (low level spell) of a mirror in front of a Medusa. She missed saving throw and believed. So would said illusion reflect her real image causing her to turn to stone or does the illusion really reflect her real image? what do you think? thx

[@BanditsKeep]

For me, I would say the illusion would be her real reflection, mostly because that is epic!

[@apjapki]

My players were fed a false story leading them into a trap the other day. I still pretended to roll as if the planned ambush was a random encounter table to sow seeds of doubt. I think it has its place.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@projab]

my problem with running illusions/secret doors/traps etc this way is that i feel like there's a lot of time wasted when players have to carefully describe their actions when most of those actions result in "nothing happens" or "there's nothing out of the ordinary". my current solution is as follows: if the players move carefully and spend time looking around, they will notice traps, secret doors, and illusions. this of course means that the real challenge is how to pass the illusion, how to open the secret door, or how to disable/sidestep the trap.

[@BanditsKeep]

That makes sense - I handle traps and secret doors much the way you describe - for my group, exploration is a huge part of the game so nothing is wasted - but I can see some groups preferring what you describe

[@gegegebebebe5087]

Uh, I would love to see/hear your opinion on Crown & Skull

[@BanditsKeep]

I shall see what I can whip up

[@Khaldryn]

Some change your mind videos with the classic change my mind meme thumbnail would be great.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@apjapki]

Speaking of calling for a roll that tips players off, the dumbest thing I ever did was call for an insight check when an NPC wasn't lying. They were dropping coded messages into their speech to see if the players were Thieves but was friendly, honest and helpful and the players failed to recognise this. They assumed (because they failed) that the NPC was definitely lying. What I did failed to consider the false ideas players have about insight as a lie detector. I am sure similarly ill advised calls for rolls without explanations could convince players that something is definitely an illusion when it isn't. I no longer call for such rolls unless success or failure immediately causes action or danger to occur, in some ways similar to you holding off until they apply the 10 foot pole.

[@SusCalvin]

Psychology in Call of Cthulhu is used a bit like that. You roll Psychology to pick up hints under the surface of a human characters behaviour. It could pick up that a character is not telling all they know. They might grasp that this bloke they talk with is scared of something they can't see. In one adventure you can notice that two chaps at a gate are not human. Characters like detectives and social workers and priests, anyone who works a lot with people, can have it.

[@BanditsKeep]

Ah yes, players mistaking what the roll is for can lead the adventure in odd directions - though I guess that happens in life as well.

[@JeffreyJibson]

How do you deal with different PCs observing different things? Say it out in the open, pass notes, etc.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good question - for that I would likely pass a note - but I try when at all possible to have NPCs cast an illusion that all the PCs would see

[@pandoraeeris7860]

It's an illuuuuuuuuusion!

[@BanditsKeep]

🪄

[@ericjome7284]

An illusion is little different from a trap. Many patterns you use for managing traps apply to illusions

[@BanditsKeep]

I can definitely see that

[@israelmorales4249]

Another thing. You have mentioned on other occasions that you usually play alone and that you have examples of that on another channel. What is the channel?

[@rnelson9880]

Bandits Keep Actual Play is the channel

[@tHeInEvItAbLePaRtY]

The link is in the About section on the channel page.

[@BanditsKeep]

As others have said - it’s called Bandit’s Keep Actual Play

[@Joshuazx]

Could you review a game called Olde Swords Reign? It's a rules lite combo of 5e an 0e. Character creation is really good.

[@BanditsKeep]

I don’t generally do game reviews - but that sounds cool, I’ll pick it up and see what might inspire me, thanks!

[@Joshuazx]

@@BanditsKeep I think it's a criminally underappreciated gem. Its 3rd edition is in the works.

[@SusCalvin]

I usually allow people to poke through illusions. Illusions in my interpretation are often static or imperfect. The illusion does not adapt to changing circumstances. A dude poking a stick into an illusionary tower could very well notice that the stick does not burn. They can try to douse the flame with water and notice it does not go out. Damage from an illusion, like drowning from illusory water or being chomped by an illusory dragon, can also be illusory. The character falls over as if they believe they are dead, but in reality they are just lying down. They are still out of the fight and their surviving friends can leave them for dead as they retreat. This makes "blatant" illusions like a triton in the desert or a wall where you saw a dude run through easy to defeat. But the clever illusions that take pains to fit in and play on expectations are scary.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@CaptCook999]

It does state somewhere that if you have never seen something, like a fireball being cast, it will be flawed. So the more you observe the better your illusion will be. And in my opinion, props will enhance the illusion. So by using a "fake wand" to cast your fireball will enhance the believability. Going to the circus so you can observe and listen to the elephants will give you a more believable illusion. So it takes a little extra work but it will also be good roleplaying.

[@SusCalvin]

@@CaptCook999 That would be a fun illusion. The bums see an elephant... But it is an elephant out of those medieval manuscripts where a guy who talked to a guy who once talked with a dude who saw an elephant tries to draw one. They made these wonderful elephants that looked like donkeys (grey animal?) with an anteater snout (long nose?) or big teeth.

[@jacobbrown7367]

I cant help but think about how, in the 5e groups i play with, no one takes illusion based spells. Theyre horribly limiting in ways that would make it readily obvious something was off about them, even to passive bystanders, so it feels very wasteful to cast them. I wish instead of having spells limited to a single sense per spell until later levels, they were described in degrees of realism, where a low level spell could have all the needed components to appear real, but be crude or simplistic in execution, all the way up to the illusion may as well be a substitution for reality itself.

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s a great idea - it might be enough for a low level spell to make a rough brick wall or a fire, but not a detailed scene

[@Dinofaustivoro]

Do you make illusions actually harm PCs when they believe? I could never warp my head around the idea...

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes - though the harm is psychological - it’s like in stories where someone is scared to death it had a panic attack

[@Matt_Volk]

Some modern games (3e-5e, Pathfinder 1e & 2e, etc.) make this approach a hard sell for you players who will complain that they have invested feats in a character that ought to be good at thus and so. If you're going to do this, then, you will want to make sure your players know before their "build" is ruined.

[@BanjoSick]

That build thing is what is turning me of 3E onwards. Monte Cook did so much good for D&D (ascending AC, abstracted Saving Throw categories, Unified Resolution Method d20) but the feats created the “build” and that destroyed D&D for me.

[@obviouswarrior5460]

@@BanjoSick Illusion did not work on monster wishoute eyes/ears . Like ooze or musroom. Dragon have a blindsight... Demons, angels (true sight) ... So much peoples. Wizard are rare (1/100 peoples have potential to learn/practice magic) and is case of abuse mystra can bane you from magic ^^ I try to destroye d&d for ~20 years and i have never succes ^^

[@BanditsKeep]

That makes sense - if someone has a certain skill or feat - that must be taken into consideration

[@bonzwah1]

Anything you changed your mind on is inherently compelling, i think, because you must have been exposed to some compelling experience or compelling perspective to cause your change in opinion. I want to hear about it

[@BanditsKeep]

I think time and what we are playing and with who we play will shift our thoughts on certain topics.