S4#28. Fixed keels vs Shallow draft - Delos 2.0 + Nahoa 55 VERSUS Portofino 52 + Odisea

This week we shatter some myths about fixed keel and shallow draft catamarans!!! Because we have owned both these types of cats and cruised with daggerboards for over 20 years, , we are able to share our experience as we take a deep dive into the pros and cons of each...
The real truth is not what you would expect... We have heard (usually from monohull or inexperienced cat sailors) that "daggerboards" are a waste of time but the quality and pleasure of sailing life is dramatically improved with shallow draft cats... FIND OUT HOW - and it's not what you think!!!!
We also show how surviving hurricanes and reduced risk of capsize can be achieved with shallow draft boats and how performance cats with fixed rudders lose these benefits....
Enjoy!!!
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[@mangowalter8239]

I have always believed in safety first and totally agree with your choice! Having the ability to lift your rudder and fold your keel to tuck into the groves for safety is definitely worth the extra funds spent. The added bonus is putting her on the sandy beach and having a sandbox as your backyard. 👏👏 You both are building the perfect catamaran with your well thought out choices and the expertise of Portofino. When completed she will be carving a new path in the catamaran industry and every manufacturer will find themselves redesigning to reach the same quality as Portofino! Well done my friends! 😊❤

[@jaysonbowerman115]

Love the fun and informative presentation, and it’s easy to be convinced of the benefits. Our inland lake sailer is a Hobie Getaway, and I love being able to tell the boys to hang on tight and then sail the cat right up into the beach with her flip up rudders and zero concerns for damaging her rotomolded mini keels. We aspire to the cruising lifestyle for more than a week or two a year, and it’s given us something to chew on, as what seems to be currently in our budget is GRP with fixed keels….sigh.

[@JibeTalking]

John & Eli, you have opened a can of worms, now I want to change my mind and get a keel and rudder that lifts up...thanks for the expert analysis and pros and cons of both. I hope we get to meet you on the water someday. I look forward to seeing your new boat and how it fairs in shallow waters. Such a cool ability to beach you boat... Thanks again for sharing and please be safe.

[@JCKR-yv4gy]

Love this episode. You touched points I've been wondering about, thanks.

[@TheThreebucks]

I have never been sailing, but if I were to get a boat, I would be keen on a shallow draft catamaran. I love the idea of being able to walk out on the beach as well as be safe from swell and storm. Great vid!

[@arlisscott3455]

Love you channel, great information! The unique boat that I ever saw was a cross between a Wharren bottom and caterman top that some fellow Sailer was building. Now there's a rudder or two that can be said about that! er Canadian sense of humor talking

[@troublekaliman]

Superb info! thanks! And definitely very entertaining as well!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Glad you enjoyed it, Kaliman!

[@lazzj4995]

Love a bit of competitive competition and banter- it draws out great discussion. Look forward to the day an Alloy Cat flotilla meets up somewhere

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes that would be awesome!!!

[@hobblobber3914]

Sailing Jupiter has a Mumby with the kick up rudders, watching them in action on their great loop was cool.(not the rudder strikes, but the lack of damage from them)

[@TheDixiechick12]

Thank you for sharing your great idea's.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Glad you like them!

[@MK-gr9qz]

You guys are sooo good, thanks for sharing❤️

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Our pleasure! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@tinytoons2517]

Ok John now I think I'm starting to understand your relationship with Eli, kudos to the you guys and I hope you get the Cat of your dreams from Portofino, ciao, ciao . . .

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Great to hear, Tiny! And we hope the P52 lives up to our dreams too!

[@ianh2674]

Good discussion folks and as others have mentioned, it comes down to personal choice and what people are looking to get out of their boats, me always a monohull so no discussion needed.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Absolutely Ian and no-one is wrong!

[@kayburow4539]

Very good point to consider 🤙 Keep it up guy’s, love your content ❤

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thank you 🙌 Kay! We like to put out the info that others seem to be unaware of...

[@seawench555]

I'm completely with u both, really there just is no comparison, the lifestyle of folding rudders and lifting keels is a world away from fixed keels an rudders, the options u have with shallow drafts is simply common sense in my opinion. Good luck to Delos and others. Plukkys got it going on. Can't wait to have so much fun in the sun and sand on Eli-gence 1. Love u both, great vlog, though I'm not sure we can convert to stay hards. 🇦🇺👍💯💜there's no way the 52 will flip, not with all those shoes, hey Eli😘 thank You for the mention, I feel very special. Lets just be brutally honest, the 52 is a complete package, ground breaking inovation, functional architecture, and above all the highest safety considerations implemented. I say folding, lifting and tucking it away, too Easy💯

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@seawench555 you are absolutely right - we know that some will agree and some will disagree - we are all different so that’s life!!!

[@morgananderson9647]

@barefootdoctors- Really appreciate your channel and all the education you are providing! All the best, M-

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Glad you find it useful Morgan....

[@MarchTwentyfour-t8z]

Great topic choice, I think you just might rekindle an old argument here lol. Personally I'm designing an 80ft Trimaran, as a friend once told me, get a boat with enough room to hang your toothbrush! Haha. Anyway, the first things that I insisted on were a very shallow draft, center boards and lifting rudders. With technology available now like the SEA sentry camera and farsounder, you are very safe from obstacles, floating, submerged and bombies alike. So the argument about hitting things is pretty mute with modern tech. The benefits you get from a no stress night during a storm, parties on the beach, calm time at a rolly anchorage. It's just pure heaven! Plus keeping yourself and your boat safe during major storms can and has been a life and boat saver, it's no joke! Many years ago I cruised the East coast of Aus, spending over a year in Nth Qld, on a monohull. I cannot tell you the number of times we were so envious of multihulls simply parking on the beach like a Sunday afternoon picnic while we were rolling around totally uncomfortable. These things you never forget LOL. So YES, I completely agree with everything you said and well done for bringing it up. Cheers guys 🍻🍻

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi 3/24, thanks very much for your story that confirms what I was trying to share - and hopefully any other skeptics will read your info too! Good luck with your 80 footer - please tell us more about it and if you have any timeframes / plans / designs etc!!!

[@RuthBrown-tm2gt]

Another informative episode. Cat Greatcircle has an episode titled, stuck in Hill Inlet. BTW are Barefoot Doctors Sailing Podiatrists? 😂

[@warrenpowell6570]

Interesting episode. I have no opinion on shallow hulls vs fixed keeled boats. But I am interested in seeing how you make out with your in contrast with oh say the, Wynes's HH44. It is fun to watch and cool to see where everyone goes and what you experience. Thanks for letting me tag along!😊

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Warren - yes we will be very interested to see how she performs too in comparison to the other cats and tris out there!!!

[@paulstephens5229]

At the end of the day it’s down to personal choice, I got a boat to go in the water not land. But I get your point on dodging storms, I like being bounced around, I’m just weird like that. I sleep better when there is movement.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Absolutely Paul - there is no right or wrong, just different choices from personal preference so hopefully we will both be happy and both you and Eli sleep well! I always sleep well, even in storms so Eli is the waking up and worrying person....

[@collegepros]

I remember your video from a year or two ago about the benefits the shallow draft. I was absolutely sold on the prospect of being able to go where other’s could not. I can’t wait for you to get your Portofino 52 and take us on wonderful video adventures! Timeline for delivery? Cheers!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good to hear you have been following us long enough to know we repeated ourselves!!! We just have heard several channels making comments that miss the important points, we wanted to repeat them with more impact!

[@t-hex6876]

Great video. Excited to see your new boat on the open sea! It’s going to be amazing. Will Portifino make your design their standard offering in the near future?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Hex, thanks for the comment and yes, the Portofino 52 is the main boat being produced by Portofino now as there are so many extra features.... They will be looking at making some large cats too as they have been asked to make some larger new designs too....

[@SimonCurrey]

Totally agree. We had a Gemini 105 in the UK. One thought though for areas with large tides fixed keels still work. As per your still of a twin keel yacht. I am thinking about a Neander diesel outboard on something like a c cat 38. Light powerful, better engineered, no anode issues.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

hi Simon, you are so right - outboards (esp diesel ones) are great options for using to dry out with or without mini keels. I sailed a bilge Keeler monohull in the UK in my young days too so fixed keel cats work really well there too!

[@SimonCurrey]

One risk with centre boards is the case getting jammed with mud. So think about how it could be pressure washed. On the Gemini it took a couple of hours to clear. After boat was hauled out.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Interesting problem Simon, we never had that with our 42 footer but perhaps there was more space in the daggerboard case to move it around a bit. When it was not used for months and barnacles grew inside the case, we had to swim under and scrape them out but when in use, this never happened... Never had mud trouble but perhaps in the UK there is more mud and if it dries, perhaps it just became solid...

[@martinlutken8427]

I totally agree with your arguments for a swinging centerboard. HOWEVER, one question I've never heard a good answer to is, why there can't just be one swinging centerboard in the centerline under the bridgedeck (i.e. out of the water when not used)? It would be such a simple construction without a keelbox and only Dynema lines (above water) to fix it in place. Easy to fix when broken, no threat to hull integrity and no antifouling required either. Obviously the centerboard would be surface piercing when in use, creating some extra drag, but how much? PS. The solution actually already exist on some smaller cats.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Wow, that sounds like an interesting idea, Martin. My main concern would be to know if the mechanics with the lines holding it in place would be strong enough to hold it stable - it woudl be good to get an engineer to see if the forces can be managed and possibly use part of the underwing to stabilise the top 3 feet of it... Patent it if it can work!....

[@SimonCurrey]

Totally agree. We had a Gemini 105 in the UK. One thought though for areas with large tides fixed keels work. As per your still of a twin keel yacht. Re engines I am thinking about a Neander diesel outboard on something like a c cat 38. Light powerful, better engineered, no anode issues. I also like the Seawind 1190. The blade rudder seems a good fix. It potentially allows a spare rudder to be carried.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi again Simon and the Seawinds are great boats with excellent use of internal space - very innovative in their day. And yes the diesel outboard would be great!

[@my5976]

Eagerly waiting to see you both set sail on your Portofino 52.... Maybe maybe, i am more impatient than you both 😂

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

You must be ~REALLY KEEN if you are more keen than us!!!! Good on you!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Ha ha yep we are all sooo excited. We are a bit like a couple kids getting close to Santa coming!! 😂

[@rickcreel3657]

Dyneema floats if you made panels of Dyneema rope and cloth that was sealed with vinyl. These panels could be secured between the hulls making the boat a hovercraft. We have leaf blowers that produce 250mph blasts. This could lift the boat and the boat could be kedged with an anchor to deeper or shallower water. This could help you hide from a storm or in deeper water for sailing.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Wow, interesting concept Rick! Get it to a nautical engineer and see if the figures work!!!! Would be amazing!

[@Coleen-Love]

Very interesting! -- QUESTION -- One issue you didn't discuss yet, is for for those who are looking to go up the Inside Passage for a few years and into Alaska and maybe, just maybe, the Northern Passage. I watched Alluring Arctic Sailing on youtube and he has an alluminum sailboat (an older Garcia 43/46 type sailboat) and can beach and dry out too - very cool indeed. He even motored through the thin ice layer that formes overnight. But, how would an alluminum Cat handle snowy, and thin ice, in northern conditions vs a sailboat like a Garcia? Could a Cat handle going up north as well as a metal sailboat? I can't find any examples of Cats doing this??

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Colleen, certainly Garcias also make the Explocat 52 and the claim that it would be fine in the extreme latitudes in the same way as their monohulls... If anyone wants to do the seriously extreme sailing up (or down) there, you need extra insulation, extra heating and probably some other additions. I do not see any reason for exploration cats not to do that as Delos and Nahoa are certainly talking about it...

[@orbiradio2465]

Even fixed keel catamarans have a quite low draught, when compared to a monohull. The Portofino 52 has 70cm while Delos 2 has 120cm. A monohull with the same interior room (60+feet) has at least 3m. That's because the keel of a monohull must counter the heeling of the boat.

[@svsaguaro]

I think you could also include in the negative in terms of "costs" is "how often am I REALLY going to beach the boat?" Let's say that flip keel/rudder feature costs you $50,000 extra to build. How many days are you truly living beached? Even in the bahamas, I don't see many beaches I would feel comfortable beaching for prolonged periods of time. Maybe a day or two for fun. But how often will this really happen? Maybe 10-20 days over a couple years? How much did that feature cost, per day, plus maintenance, to have? Because it seems like it's costing the same as a really awesome hotel suite per-day to have a boat with this feature. So for me personally, just not worth it. Fixed sacrificial keels better for how we sail.

[@glynmatthews2156]

I’m assuming that there will be some kind of light / notification on your instrument panel that will show that the centreboards are up or down?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Glyn, yes there will be a monitor to tell you where they are, like the rudder gauge on the auto helm.

[@SailingSeahorse2025]

How do you stop fouling of the centre board casing so the board doesn’t get stuck? On a side note all you YT channels will cross paths in a bar one day and there’ll be biffo 🤜😂

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

@@SailingSeahorse2025 Certainly barnacles and algae growth on the lower part of the Centreboard case and you just have to keep up your antifoul and scrape it if it builds up to much it’s much worse when you leave the boat on used for long periods of time in the water. Most of the channels will create arguments just for the views and usually both sides get more views as well! Of course in any group there are some you just don’t get on with so you leave them alone…

[@SailingSeahorse2025]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 yeah. Those monohull guys can all go sit at a table of their own 😂

[@ecnaruaL]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 One of the well established realities of certerboard cases for cruisers, especially where there is no in-water access to the inside of the case because this was designed below the DWL, is that the only time access for maintence or cleaning is adequate or convenient is when the board has been removed. At all other times it is seriously compromised. The fact this did not make it onto your list of cons suggests you may not yet be aware this.😐

[@robertpendzick9250]

On a shallow draft boat would it be possible to raise/lower the keel on command from the depth sonar? Yes, you would do it manually, but as a safety feature if the depth sounder discovers it is shallower then the set it has an auto raise feature to try to prevent grounding? Additional expense sure, but less possible damages?

[@fountainvalley100]

Actually if I were to build a catamaran it would be a power cat with no sails. I would work in at least 20kw of solar and a couple thousand gallons of fuel. I would trade the cost of the sails and the rigging for the cost of diesel and lithium iron phosphate batteries. So there would be no keels or dagger boards. And yes it would have the prop and rudder higher than the bottom of the hull so you could beach the boat.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes indeed, there are many good motor cats that beach and I think in one of the photos of Alba Dash on the beach with Eli at the front left of the photo, you can see a motorcar beached behind Alba Dash.

[@barryholiday8998]

👍🏻👏

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Cheers for your support!

[@tonyacerra2329]

Would your boat be able to survive structurally being washed up un a beach unlike the Wandering Hillbilly?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes it would survive grounding as long as it was not being pounded by large waves onto rocks...

[@jackwickman2403]

My observation of the grounding of the Hillbilly is that the critical failure was the prop shaft support struts punching straight up through the hull. This flooded the engine room. With the added weight of water in the boat the damage accelerated even though the waves were not very large at the time. The struts had fairly small metal plates where they attached to the hull and were not in line with a bulkhead. Even on sand, when the weight of the boat pushed the prop shafts up the hull failed at the strut attachment points. Boats that can motor at high speed really like to have their props be the deepest thing to be in smooth water flow. If you only motor below hull speed then the props can be shallower than the bottom of the hull and/or protected by skegs. Struts aligned to mount at a bulkhead, so that they collapse before punching through the hull, or watertight bulkheads isolating the rudder and prop shaft strut mounting area might have saved the engine room from flooding and reduced the damage.

[@sailingsandy7971]

Fixed keel. Why? Two less things to worry about and when things go wrong, they go wrong badly and expensive to fix. I had an experience on a dagger board boat where we got distracted navigating close to shore upwind, keels were down, port side hit a rock and was badly damaged. Couldnt lift it, boat got swung around, managed to back away with engines. Messy. I have been on fixed keels when we have hit something, but aside from a gouge or scratch, the fix was realtively cheaper and we sailed on even with damage. And there is data out there to show that the difference in pointing ability is not that much (for a racer maybe) but for crusing its more dependant on the boat. Seawinds fixed keels for instance point really well. But most crusisers try to avoid upwind anyway and you dont ness daggerboards after that 😊

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yep totally get your point! Pros and cons with both, but that is on thing we really missed and didn’t think we would as much as we did. Cheers for your comment!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Sandy, we agree with you in that improved upwind performance is the least important factor in our choice... Two points on your unfortunate grounding - were there not sacrificial tips to your daggersbonards and fixed keel GRP boats will sometimes hole their hull when you hit reef with speed... We have seen both and lost the tips of our daggerboard twice in 20 years but no other harm done - and fixed keel damage to hull with big leak is more worrying that daggerboard you can't raise.... However our P52 will give rotate upwards if we hit anything at speed so should be fine and of course aluminium is very much stronger than GRP for running aground in any way!

[@Coleen-Love]

Just another tiny question... if I can be so bold as it may be a bit political... I noticed that Delos is building in Australia and that you guys originate from Australia... I think Delos started the build after you guys started your build and this fact may be the answer... Were you aware of existence of the Australian shop that is doing the Delos build, prior to your decision on where to build? I guess what I am asking is why didn't you decide build with the Delos shop?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Colleen, that is a great question and when we were looking for a shipyard to build our boat we had a long wish list including front cockpit, shallow draft, lifting keels and rudder (reachable), high performance, good living space and more. While the front cockpit put most builders out for us, lifting keep and beachability put out the rest. Portofino was the only yard that was willing to design the mechanics to create the rotating centreboard, and they were already offering amazing extra features like the transom walkthrough door, front trampoline ladder, piped pressured air, automatic fuel polisher and much more... The Mumby design (now Odisea) was the closest thing to want we wanted but still missing many of the features we wanted.... Building in Australia woudl have been much easier but the quality, finish and extras made the extra hassle of doing it in Dubai worthwhile!

[@johnphillips8088]

👍🏼👍🏼💕

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for coming along!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for following, John!

[@DarrenBainbridge]

Hi John, Centerboards are interesting, seems to be some good pros. What your thoughts on pocket fouling from growth and mud and the required maintenance. Will this need regular hual outs? what was you experience with tiger board case maintenance. I assume this could be done in the water, not so sure about the centre board pocket cleaning while in the water.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good questions Darren. The centreboard can be dismantled on the sand when the tide is out and the "pocket" is shallow so we can easily get into it to clean if barnacles ever grow. Portofino is putting in an electronic device to reduce growth of algae and barnacles in there too. Cleaning daggerboards is a bit more difficult as the slot is so long but it is usually only the bottom 3-6 inches that grows stuff so you can reach it with scrapers... Can be done in the water but easier out of the water and good antifoul also slows growth.

[@davidmartin3947]

Aren't sailing boats being designed for uses they never actually do much, if at all? So you have much concentration on sailing upwind, when a casual watch of the sailing channels will show that they are almost invariably motoring, not sailing, under those conditions. The point about the rare use of daggerboards is well made, so why bother to any substantial degree? Your own solution of a lifting keel is plainly the best available allowing beaching, but comes at the expence of some considerable complexity, and perhaps potential reliability issues? A rudder needs to be lifting, no doubt about that, so the complexity must be accepted. I was born in the 1950's in the solent area in England, and in my youth the boats that took my fancy were the monohull twin bilge keel ones, which laughed in the face of being grounded on the mud flats, unlike racier contenders. They were obviously designed at the expence of extra wetted surface, but still a great, simple solution. So in admiration for your great design ideas, demonstrated by your solution to pitch poling, which as a side effect gives far more room in a performance catamaran, is not one possible solution to having a beachable catamaran to have some fixed, simple, minimalistic keel arrangement which recognises that if you are going upwind, you will be motoring anyway, without needed a more complex raising arrangement? Lifting would still be needed for the rudder, to be sure. Keels, who needs 'em! ;-)

[@AlphaOmega254]

I've watched & listened to Peter from Freedom and personally I find him a bit of an idiot and have stopped watching him. I believe others feel the same way as he's having the toughest time crewing his Aluminum Cat. His choice of material is good, although personally if I were ever to build a Cat it would made almost entirely of titanium as it is only slightly heavier than Aluminum, but it's as strong as steel and doesn't corrode which is an added bonus. Yes, much more expensive, but if done properly should last for centuries if sailed properly. The End. Good-Luck and Good-Bye. Amen. Shalom. AD. The Teacher. 😎 🖖 🙏 👃

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Nice idea with the titanium if it can be done... Thanks for your insight!