Battery to Inverter Closed-Loop Communication

Setting up closed-loop communication between battery bank and inverter. Currently, I'm using the Schneider inverter with an EG4 battery bank from Signature Solar. This system works well, but could be better. The inverter only sees the Voltage of the battery. This type of setup is simple and easy, called open-loop communication. I'll be changing this to closed-loop communication so that the batteries report information to the inverter.
The batteries I'm using are LiFePO4. There is an internal BMS (Battery Management System) built into the batteries. This BMS can report information to the inverter, such as, SOC (state of charge). Eventually I'll use the SOC information for other functions, such as turning on/off my generator.
This whole system is part of running my home off grid. Usually my solar array handles all my energy needs.
To see more videos on the Schneider inverter, check out this playlist: • Schneider
Updating firmware on the EG4 battery: • Maximize Your Battery ...
Signature Solar Affiliate Links:
Home Page: signaturesolar.com/?ref=4_rHc...
EG4 Battery and Rack: signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepo...
Chargeverter, 100A Generator Charger: signaturesolar.com/eg4-charge...
Schneider XW6948 Inverter: signaturesolar.com/schneider-...
Schneider Insight Home: signaturesolar.com/schneider-...
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Disclaimer:
My videos are in no way intended to be instructional "how-to" lessons. I am simply documenting my project for informational purposes. Property damage, personal injury, or death may result, even when following manufacturer's instructions. I cannot be held liable for such damage or injury. It is YOUR OBLIGATION to ensure that you are complying with any local and federal laws as well as code and permit requirements.
David Poz, LLC

[@thhillbillyinventor105]

Glad you got over your fear of the computer and got SOC setup. That comes in handy for sure rather than voltage alone.

[@onthegravel]

Very cool indeed! If you ever need backup on the computer side, I'm a computer engineer and have a patent and peer reviewed papers on networking. I've enjoyed your videos immensely and have a 5 year plan to go off-grid. I would love to network literately and figuratively!

[@loucinci3922]

You did it - Way to go! Nice job. Thanks for sharing

[@AveRage_Joe]

Love it! I was finally able to purchase a MEP-802A and plan on doing the samzies!! Nice Work!

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Awesome!

[@RobertCoyneE]

WOW!!! 10 STARS !!!! Just what I'm trying to do with the Orient Power 48V BATERY BMS !!! GREAT STUFF!!! I' m building '"THE FIRST PERSONAL POWER PLANT" The first device used to BIRTH OF THE MICRO GRID INDUSTRY!!!

[@chuxxsss]

Was setting up something similar last night. But I got the virtual system mix up. I will work on it again today.

[@mommchan]

Love your videos

[@SkyNoris]

Awesome you got that working David. I'm awaiting a firmware update for my massive Victron inverter to get my system completed. Right now, I'm just using my smart shunt to determine my SOC.

[@TheWickerShireProject]

"I'm Not good with Computers..." Goes in like a boss and sets parameters after detection. Going out on a limb here Dave. You DO know Phones and Pcs. Whole closed loop system is Data related. I know for a fact you LOVE Data! I get that it may not be 100% your comfort zone but, You always seem to figure out what needs to be done. Whenever you hit a wall that critical thinking mind solves it. I enjoyed the video. Looking forward to the Generator SOC setup.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Haha. Thanks buddy.

[@jacquesdutron9954]

Thx a lot DTG, it's always wonderful to see your videos. I noticed, you've been dealing mostly with Schneider for few months now. It must be the best out there. Have a good one.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Last year was Growatt, this year is Schneider. There is a lot to go over, and by spreading it out, I have more time to test it.

[@jacquesdutron9954]

@@DavidPozEnergy thx DTG, what are the best 3 inverters that you know of? If I can't get the #1, I might get the #2 or #3. You're the best! Peace

[@DavidPozEnergy]

My answer is based on building an off grid solar system in the US. If that's the case, then of my testing, I think Schneider is #1. It is a workhorse. It's never overloaded while powering my house, and it's UL listed. There is a PDP, wire-way, etc. all thought out and UL listed. #2: If you don't care about UL listing, and want something a little cheaper, but still solid, then Victron. I'd lean to a Victron Multi-plus or Quattro, 240V output and add an auto-transformer instead of two smaller 120V models. #3: If you are looking for least expensive to get into the game, then Growatt 5000ES. Not only is the inverter less expensive, but the charge controller is built in. I consider the Growatt a starter system. Assume it will only last 5 years. It needs an auto-transformer too. Note, I have not tested the EG4 Hybrid, 8kW. That might be OK if it meets your needs. But keep in mind any transformer-less inverter is not going to handle surges well. With any of the options, I'd try to use a separate charger from Generator to re-charge the batteries.

[@jacquesdutron9954]

@@DavidPozEnergy thx a lot DTG. With 20 (600 watts) panels, I will definitely go with Schneider and only use 240 volts instead of 110 volts for my shop. Thx a lot!

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Sounds good. Looks like you have 12,000W of panels. If you plan to ground-mount them, then you can run them to two of the Schneider 100A charge controllers (600V). Is that what you were thinking?

[@johnaugsburger6192]

Thanks

[@greensolarsystems2332]

Another great video! Been watching your videos for a couple years and appreciate your sharing so much. I've got most of my home off grid and so I owe you big time. I have (16) 12.8v lithium batteries connected together in 48v parallel/series connected to t-series fuses in a "bus-bar sort of configuration" and am thinking about adding more inverters and a separate battery bank using the server rack batteries to power my 5 ton a/c system 24/7, I was going to get a 18000w inverter then re-watched your growatt 5000 videos (10000kw) and think I can parallel 4 of my 3000w voltronics together (120v ea) to a breaker box to get 240v ( for 12000kw) to run my 240v 5-ton a/c...? ANY thoughts would be appreciated! David, thanks again for helping us all get off grid

[@steveanimatrix3887]

Great video! I almost died though when you cut that ethernet plug off the cable and not leaving like 6" of wire left for a pigtail on the part you cut off so you could reuse it for something else. I always find I need one for a project and end up sacrificing a good cable. Do you know if any of these devices can interface with Home Assistant or otherwise use MQTT/Zigbee/Z-Wave protocols? I'm about to start down this path for an off grid property we're building and would like to use home assistant for things like automatically turning generators on/off if SOC gets too low (and sun is X hours from sunrise, and if weather is supposed to be Y), along with all of my other home automations.

[@steveanimatrix3887]

Ahh, you said it uses modbus, so Home Assistant CAN use it. Sorry for the premature question.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Sorry, I don't know.

[@anthonyenosis1]

​@@steveanimatrix3887lol "CAN use it". I see what you did there.

[@AgentOffice]

Congrats

[@danchesney631]

Magically, I see two inverters in the shot.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yep, I picked up a second inverter. I still have to wire it in.

[@Scat.original]

@@DavidPozEnergy I am looking forward to your second inverter video and maybe a Schneider Conext MPPT 100 600 6kW Solar PV Charge Controllerc

[@CDNguyen59]

Dave, by looking at the background look like noe you have 2 Schneider inverters installed now, my house setup 100% electric, I ran the house with 2 growatt inverters, the life of these inveter over 3 yrs old, its time for me to start thinking about something to replace those Growatt inverters based on how long my MPP's inverters last, I also saw Ben he is replaced his Sol-ark with the Schneider also, I was look at LuxPower 12K hybrid or EG4 18K from signature solar look like they are the same accept the bottom where you install all the wire, the EG4 included with the breaker inside of the box but it a lot more money than the orginal LuxPower, since I already have all of these breakers external of the box

[@JimLarsen108]

This whole series has been fantastic. Will you cover the installation of the 2nd XW pro and discuss the MPPT you are using. Why did you choose to not use the Schneider MPPT?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I'll be making more videos in the second Schneider, and the Schneider solar charge controllers.

[@cgutowski471]

Another great video on the Schneider. You’ve been using it for a while. Any big gotchas you can mention?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yeah. I'm not talking to my wife as much. I never have to coordinate with her about which loads we are turning on or when. I miss planning out times for oven, or microwave, or dryer, etc. I should probably go back to the Sol-Ark because that's when we got to have the most conversations about loads.

[@cgutowski471]

@@DavidPozEnergy LOL. Ok. That was funny. I’m looking for reliability above all as my install will be at a cabin and expect to backup grid loads like security cameras, fridge, lights and well. We’re only there a few days a month so it will need to run unsupervised (no well use of course when no one is there).

[@KRich408]

My Victron system has the ability to do all of this but my non Victron hardware isn't compatible with some of these tricks. I have a Honda EU3000 generator that's not fuel injected so a remote start is not possible. When I purchased it Honda didn't make one this size with remote start abilities. It would definitely be nice for the Multi plus II to use one of its relays to start and stop the generator depending on the SOC . Right now all I can do is have a light come on to tell me "Start the Generator not enough sun today" so I don't have to keep checking the Cerbo GX display, yes Victron cost a premium It took me a while to pull the trigger on this big of an investment, I wanted the Victron Batteries but settled on a few Battle Born Game changers, and gave up the direct communication between the Lynx shunt and the batteries. But the system is smart enough to know the SOC without paying 2x more for the Victron Batteries. Great video lots of great ideas for those with similar PV systems 👍

[@kennethalmond8922]

Nice one! LifePo4 (as you say) is sooo flat you can't make nuanced operational decisions by voltage alone. I'll be interested if you do followups to see how you keep SOC accurate over the long run - e.g. are the battery BMSs accurate enough without doing anything or perhaps you have to 100% charge now and then for SoC reset and/or does Schneider play a part and what (if any) safety precautions do you need if SoC get's out of wack and the generator turns on. My powewall is a large 18650/lithium-ion bank and the voltage range is 'wide enough' I can control things (inverter on/off, generator on/off) by voltage alone. It helps to understand your voltage sag (if significant) but it's doable at 5-10% increments. For example, I operate between 30% - 80% SoC based on voltage for longer life - one of the (few) advantages of lithium-ion over LifePo4.

[@SkyNoris]

One thing to remember though even though the voltage curve is fairly flat it isn't completely flat. You can still get a decent idea of charge state with voltage measurements. That's if you know how to interpret the readings. Until firmware comes out for my inverter, I can still get an accurate SOC with the use of a smart shunt. It actually counts the amp hours going in and out to as a way of measuring. It does however require some user input. Battery capacity and a sync when the batteries are fully charged.

[@adassociates8235]

Great video as always David👍👍👍👍👍 Just wondering SOC shows as 1 battery or the combination of your 6 batteries? Can it be able to show SOC of each batteries in your setup? Thank you

[@hermitress]

From my understanding, The Insight does not list individual battery SOC it is the battery bank total SOC and AH rating.

[@blackntantoadshelleyishot1626]

Hey David do you have a video on the generator part of the system? I want to do the same thing but signature Solar talked me outa it for their 48 volt chargers. 3 of them… trying to figure out how to not run three drop cords to recharge batteries… my solar panel project is on hold for a wile

[@user-um5lx8wl9y]

Dave- great video. Do you know the size of your ferrule for the cat5e wires? Is it 24Awg?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yes, the cables I have use 24AWG conductors.

[@homesteadhybrid3770]

Have you tried close-loop communications between the EG4 batteries and your SMA 6048's or have you coved SOC with the Sunny Island inverters in general?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I have not tried communication between the EG4 and SMA's.

[@oks3ranch]

I want to setup my XWpro6848 for closed loop with my EG4 LL V1 batteries, but last I heard they aren't compatible yet. Signature Solar said they was releasing a firmware update for them to work with the XW's but never heard anything since. I know you had some of these batteries or the original "GYLL" batteries, I'd be interested to know if anyone ever got the EG4 LL V1 batteries to work in closed loop with an XW.

[@hermitress]

Signature Solar said the upgrade for the V1 is available since I just ordered the 2 V1's on sale though there is still confusion if this actually works with the SW inverter but they claim it does work with the XW. On some video it showed someone with my SW 4024 inverter and with the firmware upgrade it was reading the BMS though he was having issues with reading more than one. The tech said maybe schneider has an update also that will help with BMS communication with EG4 because they are under the impression that it won't work with the SW. I bought an insight and test if I can get connected after I update the firmware. If not, then off to schneider to see if they have a fix. Worse comes to worse I won't be able to use closed loop but at least these batteries have screens to show their SOC so I can see their health and SOC.

[@simon359]

Couldn’t you hook up a Victron shunt? Seems like you would have more information. 🖖

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I've used a Victron shunt in the past and have some videos on it. The Victron Shunt won't tell the Schneider what the SOC is. At least, I don't think it can.

[@jmr]

I got an ESP8266 routing my charge controller data into Home Assistant. From there I can monitor, graph, or automate.

[@phillipsusi1791]

Interesting. The XW system has its own BMS that is meant to control a dumb bank of batteries and do what you want just fine. It is interesting to know that it has the ability to interface with a smart battery that has its own BMS, but that seems like a duplication of effort. I have always liked their support for flooded lead acid batteries because not only are they cheap, but if you top off their water levels ( with distilled water ) and give them an equalization charge ( which the XW system has an option to do ) once or twice a year, they can last for 20 years.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

The device you are referring to is the Schneider Battery Monitor: signaturesolar.com/schneider-battery-monitor-48v/?ref=4_rHcgZ9x-TiF- The monitor allows you to use any battery and report SOC. But, hey, if these batteries have it built-in, why spend the extra $573?

[@keithf8649]

Lead acid batteries are very inefficient compared to lithium chemistries

[@phillipsusi1791]

@@keithf8649 The term efficiency generally is used to refer to energy in vs. energy out, and that does not really vary much between different chemistries. What I think you actually mean is energy *density*. Lithium chemistries can store more energy per unit volume and/or mass, but at higher cost, and often, lower lifespan. For a stationary storage solution such as this, weight means rather little, and volume not very much either. Cost and lifetime are more important factors here, which is why flooded lead acid is still competitive for this use. For a car, size and weight matter, but not when you are just dropping the batteries on the floor of your garage or basement. In that case, cost, and longevity become more important factors.

[@phillipsusi1791]

@@DavidPozEnergy No, I mean the Schneider ( formerly Xantrex ) XW hybrid inverter/charger system has the in built capability to monitor battery voltage, and to be programmed with the maximum voltage, minimum voltage, and rated capacity in AH, and from that, estimate the SoC. There is no add-on needed. That is why you had to go to the configuration screen you showed and tell it to forget about the battery chemistry, capacity, and so on, and instead defer to what it was being told by the BMS in the battery cabinet. The system already can do the same measurements itself that the BMS is doing inside the cabinet and monitor the SoC without the need for another system to do that.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Hi Phillip, Oh, OK. Sorry I miss-understood.

[@flippingcoins7714]

After watching your video with the 3 Growatt 5000 es and then the solark comparison I installed 5 Growatt 5000 es. Why did you go away from the Growatts? It seemed like the Growatt worked better

[@DavidPozEnergy]

The #1 complaint I received while posting Growatt videos was the lack of UL listing. It seamed there was a large group of the audience that wanted to see a UL listed install. So, that's what I'm doing with the Schneider. The Schneider inverter and PDP are all UL listed together.

[@Miweatherspotter1]

If your in the USA, NEC national electric code, requires UL listing for all components in building electrical supply. So in theory, if you’re going to get it, inspected for electrical permit everything needs to be UL listed for other approved listing company certified. Inspector doesn’t care , your home insurance sure will if anything goes wrong. Mine said as long as everything was inspected and listed they didn’t care. If not listed they would drop my coverage.

[@diyrenewableenergyelectron4996]

Were you able to get rid of the external BMS and SOC faults on the inverter? Mine is doing the same and the faults won’t clear.

[@AMTAUSTIN]

David, nice video, but I think you got 2 warnings immediately after enabling SoC control. These warnings have to do with not receiving a SoC message from the BMS. I have the same problem. Eventually the inverter will trigger a fault because SoC-failed max battery voltage is exceeded (I believe it is set to 55 or 54v by default). Can you confirm you have/had the same problem, and if so, were you able to get the inverter to "receive" SoC data? Note that I do have SoC data in the device info like yours, but that somehow is totally separate from the inverter's SoC-control

[@DavidPozEnergy]

You may have seen the warning icon on the screen immediately after I told the insight home to be set to Lithium, SOC control. This is because I hadn't yet told it which lithium battery to look for. I had to tell it to talk to this battery, and then clear the warning. After I cleared the warning, it never came back and has not faulted.

[@goofymachew]

@@DavidPozEnergy did you show that?

[@nathanmader1964]

A Sol-ark will run the generator like that with voltage based state of charge alone, and soon to be able to with direct communication with those batteries

[@DavidPozEnergy]

The Schneider can also do Voltage based control. I'm setting up the SOC based control for more accuracy.

[@nathanmader1964]

I can represent it as SOC on the display. It also learns from cycling to be more accurate. Looking forward to when I can directly connect to BMS as well.

[@nathanmader1964]

Keep in mind the BMS really also just gives the SOC based on voltages. It just uses all individual cell voltages to be more accurate.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I'm not sure about that. The BMS looks like it has a shunt built in, and when I look at the BMS on the computer, it shows Amps.

[@580guru]

Or Amp hours??

[@paulgrn1]

Could you provide a link to the signature solar info you mentioned please?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

What info are you looking for?

[@brianlooney3032]

I'm just starting off with DIY solar, just a small, off grid system for a " TINY HOUSE ". I thought you could figure your state of charge with a shunt ?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

You can. Several manufacturers make shunt-based battery monitors. I've used several of them. If you DIY your own battery bank, then you could use Schneiders battery monitor to report SOC to the Schneider inverter. Same difference. These batteries have the ability built right in, which saves some money from buying an additional thing.

[@brianlooney3032]

@@DavidPozEnergy Thanks

[@edwardmendez5199]

Hi. For my schneider inverter the Low Battery Cut out will not save above 46.5

[@martinadamczewski3975]

I see you have another Schneider inverter but I never seen where you tried that one in with the other are you going to show that soon

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I got a second inverter, but have not yet wired it in. I'll make a video once I get some time to do it.

[@TubolMotoadventures]

are the two wires not reversible?

[@sinedcastonguay]

do you have a video with close loop starting the generator

[@DavidPozEnergy]

No. I'm working on an auto-start for my generator, but it's not done yet.

[@NewLightEnergy]

Another amazing video of how simple some parts of solar can be. I’m fighting with my connections. Do you know how 3 Big Battery Kong 15kwh batteries would be made to connect up for SOC. They don’t have the Ethernet port and they are fully encased. Schneider makes a battery monitor and all my equipment is Schneider. It just that it uses an anderson175 connector.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I've never personally tested the "Kong" battery, but I will answer your question based on any battery that doesn't have an Ethernet port. Basically, the battery in question doesn't support "closed-loop communication". In this case, I'd use the Schneider battery monitor. The battery monitor shunt has to be located between the battery bank, and everything else. This means, you will want to parallel your 3 batteries together at a central bus-bar. Out from the negative busbar you will have 1 connection to the shunt, and then up to your PDP (assuming you are using Schneider's PDP) The battery monitor will have to be programmed for lithium and it will report SOC to the insight home.

[@NewLightEnergy]

@@DavidPozEnergy Great thank you. I do have the PDP, 3 XWPro and 3 100/600 CC’s. 1 for interactive and 2 for stand alone, all will connect to the 3 batteries. 25.5kw array. I can only connect 1 inverter to utility as Fortis(utility supply) doesn’t allow software throttling of sell. 2 XW would sell 12kw by hardware and the transformer is 10kw. So only 1 interactive. I had actually bought the Schneider monitor with my inverters and chargers but returned it as it looked like I would have to connect to multiple different points on the cells to make it work. At the time I wasn’t willing to open up the case to get to the individual cells.

[@martinadamczewski3975]

What are you going to show the other Schneider inverter connected with the one you just showed

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I still have not yet wired in the second inverter. So many things to do and so little time. Lol

[@coffeebeanthesquirrel3101]

Why did you choose this inverter over all the others you have tested?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

The audience asked me to show a UL listed inverter. Also, this is the most efficient inverter I have tested. Remember, I'm testing my inverters in off grid mode, meaning from battery, to loads, at night (no solar input). This Schneider is more efficient than the Growatts and more efficient than the Sol-Ark in that mode.

[@coreyellisart6877]

Hey David I have been running 1 spf5000es solar only no batteries yet I purchased 2 more now paralleling Of course my first inverter spf5000 shorted on solar side and I've been fighting with signature solar for warranty work they still have been dragging me through no resolution can I parallel two of these SPF 5000 without batteries? Thank you David

[@DavidPozEnergy]

No, you must have a battery if you are going to parallel.

[@coreyellisart6877]

@@DavidPozEnergy David you are a rare breed of intelligent people that are wholesome thank you for your reply

[@jefflongino4999]

Do you have any plans to introduce a Schneider MPPT?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yes. I have one ready. It's waiting on me to get it installed an tested. Do you have anything in particular you would like to see with it?

[@jefflongino4999]

@@DavidPozEnergy Not specifically. I actually got a Schneider system and the only real step I have left is to connect the panels themselves. I have the inverter and batteries up and going (grid connected). But your videos have been very helpful so just generally interested in seeing you get that part configured. I guess seeing some details around the software settings both for the MPPT but also in the XW side as related to batteries and charging would be of interest.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

OK, good to know. Thanks.

[@jefflongino4999]

@@DavidPozEnergy I find the software settings to get this equipment to properly handle LiFePo batteries to be a bit odd. I know you recently moved to closed loop, but for an open loop system the finesse needed on these settings is a good topic.

[@AgentOffice]

Fun

[@WiSeNhEiMeR-1369]

HOWdy D-P, ... Thanks for this VIDEO ... L@@King forward to a similar VIDEO with a 6 or 12 "split-Phase" GROWATT Inverter ... I own three (3) EG4-LL Version One ( V1) 48 volt Batteries & just purchased three more EG4-LL Version Two ( V2) Batteries + an EG4 Six (6) Battery Rack (? older ? version ? ) I was so - So - SO disappointed that the V2 Rack-Mount Batteries do NOT line up with the MOUNTING Holes in the RACK 😞 ... SAFETY 😞 = the folding HANDLES on the BATTERIES contact BOTH the ++ & -- Bus Bars when FOLDING from FORWARD to FLAT position 😞 ... that my 4/0 AWG cables have NO appropriate exit from the BOTTOM of the Battery Rack ( ONLY from the TOP as noted in your opening video PICTURE ) ... Hopefully these concerns are CORRECTED in the NEW & IMPROVED Battery-Rack ??? The only advertised difference on the Signature-Solar website is the Battery-Rack BUS-BARS are "COVERED" as the older Bus-Bar version are BARE & EXPOSED ? ... thanks for your INSTRUCTIONAL Viseo COOP the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA ...

[@richardservatius5405]

i didn't see how you set the charge levels, 20% 60%

[@richardservatius5405]

i see on the screen "force charge low SOC" that must be where you set it to turn on at 20%. but i don't see where you have it turn off at 60% SOC.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I didn't set up the generator control in this video. This video is dedicated to the communication. I plan to do another video just on the generator controls, and testing to make sure it works.

[@offgridliving4128]

I hope Magnum Energy digs their heads out of their butts and gets on board with newer products like this. Sorry still can’t get over the hippie look.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

It's not that I'm trying to look like a hippie... it's simply that I don't have to follow an order for a high & tight anymore.

[@offgridliving4128]

@@DavidPozEnergy I’m just messing with you a bit. Love your videos keep up the great work. I get kinda shaggy at times also. To itchy for this guy.

[@SouthFloridaFishingClub]

Honestly, Buy Victron…. Cry it once and be done with it. My Victron system has all of this and much much much more.

[@shittubes]

make it dependent on the weatherforecast. figure out a 90% percentile max. sun-energy, and subtract that to get the maximum charge limit. :)

[@diyrenewableenergyelectron4996]

Were you able to get rid of the external BMS and SOC faults on the inverter? Mine is doing the same and the faults won’t clear.

[@diyrenewableenergyelectron4996]

Nevermind. I figured it out. You have to give the BMS an association so it knows which battery the BMS belongs to.