E-4 Mafia: Origin of the Specialist (US Army)

[@BattleOrder]

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[@Hibernicus1968]

I only ever held two ranks in the army: specialist, and sergeant. I came in as a specialist because I had a college degree, and I got my stripes before I got out four years later. I never understood why the army was willing to pay me more because I could name the first twelve Roman emperors from memory, but I wasn't going to turn it down.

[@nowthatsjustducky]

First 12? Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, and Caesar.

[@Hibernicus1968]

@@nowthatsjustducky Caesar was dictator for life; he was not an emperor. The first emperor was his nephew and adopted son, Octavian, who took the title Augustus. So the first twelve are Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian, and Nerva. Nerva was the first of the so-called "five good emperors." The rest were Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius.

[@nowthatsjustducky]

@@Hibernicus1968 Oh sure, spoil one of my better moments. :p

[@supergameaddicted]

@@nowthatsjustducky If thats your better moment you gotta step your game up son.

[@nowthatsjustducky]

@@supergameaddicted What can I say? It sounded awesome in my brain at first. :D

[@sketchygetchey8299]

You either die a hero (E4) or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain (E5).

[@Holyhandgrenade-tx6xd]

Truth!

[@robertbullard3324]

Or Corporal E-4

[@STB-jh7od]

😃😃😃

[@anthonywilliams8956]

Yep

[@agentmaine3183]

or you make first and get demoted to e3. ask me what i did and how my command failed to inform me of my reservist contract as an active duty member which allowed me to make 1st in under 4 but my command never felt like doing the work to inform me about it also they drained my tsp fucking shit means war.

[@kolinmartz]

Ahh. The full bird private.

[@alucardvanhellsing6805]

I know what I'm using to describe myself now

[@FIREBRAND38]

Nope, Chicken Corporal...

[@xXLtDudeXx]

Yea we used Full Bird, Chicken Corporal and sometimes just Buzzard to describe a shirker. I think at one point my Battery was something like 50% Specialist's.

[@mlmperez1114]

Lmao!!!

[@energicko]

Spec 5, Spec 6, etc. The "glorified private" during the Cold War era.

[@rfortier1615]

Specialist your now squad leader. But Sir I’m not a Sargent. Ok Corporal.

[@kjamtsho206]

You are*

[@TrooperStark]

Sergeant*

[@ericb6390]

Corporal went to the shytbags, everyone knew they were worthless, and then they weren't giving them E5

[@elmikeomysterio5496]

Lol.

[@MuttMarc]

Damn bro u got got

[@ericp7618]

No one gets away with more than I. I am a non Non-Commissioned Officer, a beast of burden. As a junior enlisted soldier I realize that I am a member of an under appreciated, much chastised group of soldiers which is known as the ribcage, or perhaps pancreas, of the Army. I am proud of myself and my fellow Specialists and will continue to bitch, whine and sham until the absolute last second regardless of the mission at hand. I will use my grade and position to avoid responsibility, accountability and any sense of presence of mind. Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue "I didn't know," and "It wasn't me." I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry. I am aware of my role as a SPC and if you need me for anything, I'll be on appointment. I know the other soldiers, and I will always refer to them by their first name or in some cases derogatory nickname. On weekends, or days off I will consistently drink myself into oblivion, and I will never answer my phone. I understand that for a person in my hierarchal position, rewards are going to be few and far between, and punishment will always be swift and severe. Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, because I will be accomplishing them for them. I will kiss up to their face and badmouth them behind their back, just like everyone else. I will be loyal to those with home I serve, provided there's something in it for me. I am the last bastion of common sense that stands between me and the Army philosophy of "Work Harder, Not Smarter." My voice is a tool and my complaints are a weapon that I wield with unmatched skill and finesse. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget, Specialist is the greatest rank in the Army and rank has its privileges.

[@budsatawny]

Spot on my man, grunt for 6 yrs, made spec4 in under 1 1/2 from pvt. Didn't get much sham time, but did 10 fellas worth of bitching. Sent to promotion board failed on purpose so I wouldn't be the one taking the heat from top. Got out when they started to pussify the Army in the late 90's.

[@betouncouthbag6717]

😂

[@lorwally13]

LMFAOOOOOOOO

[@robertspeakman6523]

When I got out of the Army in 1980 I was a E-4 Spec4/Specialist. To me that's the best thing I have ever read about a E-4 Specialist.

[@robertspeakman6523]

​@@budsatawny They started pussifying the Army when I got out in 1980.

[@CptFugu]

Back in the day when I was a brand new SP4 I was told a Specialist derived its God-given right to criticize everyone with impunity from being the only other rank allowed to carry an Eagle. I remember a Sergeant who used to call us "Pocket Colonels" and "Command Private Majors" when we got too rowdy.

[@pfdrtom]

Hahaha! Command Private Major! I'm gonna steal that one if you don't mind!

[@CptFugu]

@@pfdrtom Not at all. Use it at will. We can't let that jewel die. :D

[@okeynorcutt3148]

Don’t ask me my eagle don’t fly.

[@stevenjennings197]

Full Bird Private thank you very much.

[@CptFugu]

@@stevenjennings197 Lol, that's a good one!

[@grahamfloyd3451]

Specialist is actually a really good rank to enjoy. Pay is respectable and the quality of jobs available is really high. The bulk of important work in some fields is done by Specialists. Additional rank often just means sacrificing actual work for busy admin jobs. The Army calls this developing leaders, but really its just bureaucracy.

[@MisterW0lfe]

I was in a platoon that had no privates once. All of us were specialists because we had a niche commo job that was being phased out.

[@spencegame]

@@MisterW0lfe being MI some of us dont show up to a unit until after we met the TIS req for SPC. Then when we finally do have a private we start asking what got them busted down.

[@sfertonoc]

Yep. Last NCO-enlisted meeting we had, all the NCOs were talking was about admin duties and board to get to be a sergeant. i was like, Blahhh. No one was really excited about it.

[@killernanny4315]

Yup, the Army likes to say that NCOs are the backbone of the military... when in reality, the backbone is supported by Specialists.

[@MisterW0lfe]

@@killernanny4315 that would make us Specialists the pelvic girdle.... or ass of the military

[@teedee5978]

I'll throw this into the mix. When I left the Air Force I was an E4 sergeant, full up NCO, I reenlisted in an Army Reserve Aviation company and put on SP4, a few months later they promoted me to E5 and eventually put me on the Battalion Staff in an E6 slot, there I stayed as an E5, and then an AF Reserve job came open and I went back as an AF E5 eventually making E7. My civilian job was flying military contract flights into Iraq, which was almost identical to my AF job. But the civilian company gave us Geneva Convention ID cards in case we were captured, which stated were were the equivalent of an O3! So I got to use any officers facilities I wanted at any base. Talk about confusing.

[@1truthbegettingtold275]

Its just a rank. They apply it when its convenient for them. Stay away from the labels, reports from surviving privates of combat situations have influenced or directly made officer decisions about how to go back in to deal with certain tasks like recovering dead. As in the private surviving dictated the situation based off direct experience with terrain, enemy positions and methods. Im a worthless civilian who didnt join the military because i smoke weed and its alcoholics club, what would i know.

[@2x2is22]

Bureaucrazy I just came up with this on my own. I don't care if anyone thought of it before it's mine

[@aegisofhonor]

It's funny that you can be a higher rank as a civilian then you are as a soldier. A guy told me when he was in the Army he had a First Sergeant that retired, then returned to the base a couple weeks later in his civilian job as a military contractor spokesman or rep of some kind (he said he never quite knew exactly what his old First Sgt. did as a Civ on base when he returned) with an equivalent rank of Major with essentially all the authority of a full blown Major in the Army at any US military base all due to the job position he held.

[@MrSheckstr]

@@aegisofhonor there is a reason for that…. As 1st sgt you are the top enlisted in a company, its equal rank master sgt is going to be a enlisted advisor /assistant on the staff of a battalion or brigade ….. something a Major also does alot of the time …. Giving you the equivalent of an officers pay and status is for job retention , and i speculate to compensate for the lack of certain benefits that a active duty Master sgt or Sgt major gets. Also the military recognizes the value of employing veterans , both because the veteran GETS IT, and the fact these civilian employees are often parents, and keeping those kids accustomed to the military lifestyle makes it more likely that they also will “get it” and if they enlist will be easier to train. When i went through basic one of my platoons E-6 drill Sgts decided to create his own brat pack ,recruits who grew up as military brats. So yeah the military sees value in retaining veterans in a civilian capacity

[@RospettoVerte]

What type of air force were you in e4 is SrA

[@thomasbrand2650]

Hail the the E-4 Mafia and all those E-4-evers! Sadly a lot of people even in the military today don't understand the desire to be a "doer" and that rank isn't everything. When I was active duty, accepting E5 would have removed me from my roll as a line medic and stuck me managing the aid station. Ask any medic and they'll all tell you the line is better. That's where shit happens and that's where you forge the greatest bonds with the guys you're serving with. Later on getting my 5 would have also screwed me out of deploying into Iraq. I'd been in over 4 years at that point training with my guys to go on a real deployment and I sure as shit wasn't going to pass on that. Once I got into the National Guard there were just a lot fewer slots available for E5. While my rank isn't the highest, I am the most experienced medic in my unit, so now I run the aid station anyways. I could accept the rank of Sergeant now, but I get out in only a few months. So if I take that rank now it will screw one of my soldiers out of making that advancement who still has a few years of service left. So with over 8 years of service (with no ucmj, pt failures, or anything) I will be leaving the military as a Specialist. Hail to the Mafia!

[@buckplug2423]

@Cleetus Yeetus I did.

[@thomasbrand2650]

@@realWARPIG I'm aware that being a line medic isn't attached to specific ranks. But that's just the way my unit was set up.

[@arthas640]

I was never in the military but I agree with you. I live near a massive military base and 2 medium sized bases do I grew up around the military and I know too many guys who more or less got stuck in dead end technical positions. My dad was a specialist and he was told "you can spend the next decade in this position without moving" because he was on a ship, so even if he were to on base he was told he'd more or less have to start over and that's assuming he was even allowed to move off the ship to a permanent base position because the ship based job was more needed.

[@goosepk7126]

Cleetus Yeetus I did

[@MisterW0lfe]

join the Guard or Reserve when you get home, you can stay in the Mafia forever. I was Deployed to Afghanistan in `09 as a 19 year in-service E4 Combat Engineer

[@xserenadex6394]

"Why are there so many Specialists?" Because automatic promotions stop at SPC/E4. Easy.

[@davidnoahperkins]

No, it’s because I’ve been neglecting correspondence courses

[@paulinotou]

I think this is legit the main reason. Any shitbag can simply stay in the Army long enough to be specialist and chill there for many years.

[@jaycue7641]

@Old man Goat yeah but almost anyone can make it in two years.

[@jaycue7641]

@Redneck Hillbilly that's probably a fair assessment

[@yabbadabba1975]

@@paulinotou There is a limit. Takes a Command level waiver to make it to 20 as an E-6.

[@Khanclansith]

"The first Rule of the E-4 mafia is there is no E-4 mafia!"

[@alucardvanhellsing6805]

I don't know about that I'm still stuck at Dental appointment

[@puglselymyhopperiii3355]

@@alucardvanhellsing6805 No one can Casper Ghost like an E4.

[@theboshow9697]

Now with the army thinking about doing tactical naps, that’s going to be my excuse from now on

[@brentkeller3826]

(While driving off with the captain's vehicle) "You never heard of us!"

[@50buttfish]

@@puglselymyhopperiii3355 We called it "SHAMMING"!

[@tomaszskowronski1406]

The music was a suprise to be sure, but a welcome one. Memories were brought back.

[@suryasuresh4475]

Which music sir .

[@tksim412]

@@suryasuresh4475 The Medal of Honor (MoH) theme from the 1999 PS1 game is playing in the background

[@suryasuresh4475]

@@tksim412 thanks for the info .

[@jeanclaude78]

Palpatine

[@Faltrollet]

Yupp, I sure does! Sitting here not listening to the MoH soundtrack...

[@mnfrench7603]

Bring back the SP5, SP6, & SP7. They need those technical experts in those specialized MOS’s. Give “Leadership Pay” for those who want to lead. Sure, everyone can be a leader. Not everyone should be a leader. They can be an expert at being a medic, but suck as a leader. Not everyone wants to be a leader, they just want to do their job as best they can. You WANT to lead? Go to the NCO boards, which can be more selective in choosing leaders. You want to be a technical expert? Then there would be a Skills Qualification Test at each level you need to pass to get promoted.

[@AWDfreak]

This was the biggest reason why I chose not to re-enlist. I wanted to pursue being a true specialist (not as the rank name, but as someone who knew their MOS very well), not go into an NCO role I likely would have been rather unsuitable for. If the prior higher specialist pay grades and ranks were still around, I might have still been in, eager to hone my skills and experience, and pass it down to the new fuzzies.

[@muskaos]

The Navy doesn't have any sort of specialist rank, but I became convinced during my 20 year Navy career that the Navy needs one. I worked with a lot of technically proficient E-6s that absolutely sucked as leaders, and the service needs a way to let people be SMEs in their chosen career field without throwing on top having to lead, which is another skill set entirely. My father was in the Army 1968 to 1979, and left as a Specialist 6. He was up for Master Sergent, but never passed the boards. He was an electronics geek, worked on Hawk missiles and Mowhawk avionics. He also did a stint at radio school in Ft Gordon as an instructor.

[@toddeberlein965]

That is why I became a Warrant Officer. An 890A specializing in ammo. Best move I ever did. Sadly the Commission ranks are trying to dilute the specialized spots in the Army. You need people proficient in one thing not generalized as they are. The only thing about the E-4 mafia is the way the system works now is you have many that are immature and this is what they should rank out at. Then you have many E-4 who are great leaders but don’t want to go higher rank due to numerous factors.

[@josephahner3031]

@@toddeberlein965 that's why some of the higher specialist grades should come back. Don't promote the immature and incompetent.

[@kejoco517]

Mmmmmm nah. Makes too much sense. Not the army way.

[@steviov3376]

The Army so needs to bring the old Specialist rank structure back. So many dudes forced into leadership positions that don’t want them or are bad at them. As well as guys that want to become experts at their technical craft but are forced to do more and more admin/oversight because of the pressure to keep promoting as an NCO

[@SuperKevin6464]

@xheralt or do what 90% of them do, ETS and come back as a contractor or DAC. The Army isnt technical any more and leans too heavily on the private sector to win any wars. We might as well just pay mercenaries to do the job for us.

[@KAI-fi1fl]

Don’t forget those that want to be ncos but figuratively don’t have the backbone to stand up for their soldiers. I had couple buddies that got E-5 before me and would go to me to problem solve for them because I am not afraid to talk to seniors that do not know better or are in the sauce.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

I can attest. As I've written above, as a Sergeant in the NBC room, I was also required to be a "leader" to the rest of the unit--Paperwork, meetings, "leadership" (babysitting) when I needed to be down in the NBC room maintaining things as tasked. Not that I was against lending a hand as needed, but I can't do NBC stuff if I'm also Sergeant of the Guard, counseling some PFC I'm not responsible for, or watching over a detail in the trackpark.

[@KAI-fi1fl]

@@k.chriscaldwell4141 yesss, I’ve noticed a major crux we are facing is lack of administrative practices, the efficiency and modernization in computational practices definitely keeps us behind.

[@MrSirwolf2001]

@@SuperKevin6464 True, contractors take care of a lot. The C-12's are all contractor repair, and many of the techs are or were former Army C-12 crew chiefs. I know another tech that was busted from E-4 to E-2 twice. He really was a shitbag, but he had one thing going for him, he was THE ONLY person to pass his system's manufacturer's computer software course with a perfect score. Of course it probably didn't help that the CO hated him personally, and had vowed to get rid of him one way or another. Once he knew that he was being kicked out, he sent one single fax from the company fax machine. Before he walked into the barracks, the contractor was calling the barracks phone for him. One month after leaving the Army, he was back making a 6 digit salary and not reporting to anyone.

[@mar10ssj1]

E4 was the best rank to have. You can chill with the homies, leave with everyone else, not have to stay for leadership meetings, great times. When I made E5, it all changed. I distinctly remember not being able to sit with the homies for lunch anymore. It was no mandated or anything, it was expected of me. I had to now sit with the other NCO's. It really did bring a rift between the guys and myself. They now avoided me because they knew I could task them to do shit and they weren't having any of that.

[@timberlv22]

The E-4 mafia were really knowledgeable soldiers from my experience. They may not of wanted to lead but knew how to get things done.

[@flipmem1450]

I was a proud member of the E-4 Mafia. I was also a full time recovery specialist which included welding/mechanic/driving skills and a LOT of resourceful thinking on my own to complete a recovery as I was usually sent out solo. I was trusted and highly appreciated in the performance of my job. I did not want to lead anyone but I could teach anyone what I learned.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

You make a good point. Looking back Specialists were not only "doers," but the primary teachers as well. As I've written above, the Specialist ranks, say, Specialist-4 to 7 should be brought back. A lot of expertise and teaching ability is being pushed out the door otherwise. As a Specialist, I was often the one that took the new kid around and showed him the in and outs on the base, in the unit, in the trackpark, and inside the tanks. We Specialists were often the ones impromptu teaching the basics to the new and misfits. I no longer did that as a miserable Sergeant in the NBC room.

[@flipmem1450]

@@k.chriscaldwell4141 In the interests of detail, I was one of 2 M816 wrecker operators in a Cavalry Squadron(1st Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment of Dragoons, 1st Armored Division, '78 - '81 in West Germany). Shortly after obtaining my wrecker a new "rule" came out that no one under the rank of E-5 was allowed to operate a military vehicle off post without an E-5 in attendance. Finding an E-5 on any given day with the free time to be my "bitch"(not in an insulting way but his only job was to be present in this case) was difficult at best. Hence my "promotion" without pay or authority, to AJ(Acting Jack) Sergeant. The Squadron Commander presented me with a set of stripes and said, "If I catch you wearing these at any other time than when you are off base in your wrecker while on a recovery, you're toast". I didn't abuse the situation. I remember a few other cases of AJs being around for various reasons, although mostly because of rank requirement but not enough points, desire, availability etc. to fill the position.

[@jeffreym.keilen1095]

Bro, I learned that it is more rewarding to be an instructor over a teacher . Those instructed,retain the knowledge WE have bestoed on them.

[@dudejo]

Based on another KZbinr's stories about his time as E-4, the Army either makes it borderline impossible to become E-5 or stupidly easy. Also, being Corporal supposedly lets you become E-5 faster but you basically have all of the responsibilities without any of the respect. So no one wants to be Corporal.

[@karenpojar2514]

There are only so many NCO "slots" (# of positions to fill) authorized by congress per MOS (job) in the Army. So depending on how popular and required a job is, it is either incredibly easy or near impossible to get promoted to an NCO rank. For example, Admin is very popular because it is an easy job that rarely deploys. But it is not critical and can be replaced with contractors, so Congress doesn't authorize many slots. So lots of people are competing for only a few slots means it can take over a decade to get promoted, if they get promoted at all. Whereas Special Forces are in high demand, and the drop out rate is high. So they get promotions thrown at them.

[@dudejo]

@@karenpojar2514 from what I understood of the KZbinr's stories, his company HQ was run by irredeemable assholes. Things like being assigned to a position intended for a warrant officer, except he's a private, or another warrant officer selfishly seizing equipment he needs to do his job.

[@gab950912]

@@dudejo You're talking about Zack from mickeburnfire right ?

[@dudejo]

@@gab950912 yeah, the guy who does Fallout playthroughs with a co-host.

[@wesleyeberly228]

I like the fact that just by the detail given here I know exactly who you refer to.

[@robertcourtemanche9185]

The funny thing is that Specialists still do end up with some amount of authority, even if it is only over privates. I worked in a US Army mailroom as a teenager and my "boss" was a Specialist, he had two PFCs who also worked for him. He was "in charge" of the mailroom. Yes, that is a small responsibility, but as I found out if the Colonel didn't get his copies on time and properly collated - the mailroom became super important. Same with delivering Classified documents to the correct people and getting the proper signatures. So, even though a Specialist may not have "command" authority they are often put into junior leadership roles that probably should be held by a corporal, but because they are not in direct combat roles, they often don't qualify to become a corporal. There are several ranks in the various services that seem to be redundant or unneeded - and Specialist is one of them.

[@1Maklak]

Makes sense if Private is basically an equivalent to a paid intern.

[@jamescarter5417]

I was getting the shit smoked out of me in reception by spc proctor who lived up to his name

[@EarlCorgi]

As an E-4 Specialist I was a substitute section leader. I was definitely what amounted to assistant section leader for that deployment. Another deployment I trained an entire squad of E 3-1's and other E-4's up to standard because our squad leader was a retread NCO and the other enlisted either had very little experience or were fresh from AIT. So when we arrived in theater that deployment I was the one guy who had any real world experience at our job and could make things work. There was quite a few times I actually had quite a bit of authority. If not "legally" according to the rank structure, UCMJ, etc very much so because I was the one person who could make things work. I had a lot of responsibility land on me even though I wanted nothing to do with a "leadership" position and was just happy doing my job.

[@KAI-fi1fl]

Bro I was in charge of a whole department as a PFC because those above me either couldn’t handle the oic and got moved to another department or PCSed. I continued until I was SPC and once that happen I was safety protocols for a whole building.. as well as being in charged of couple GS-12s. **don’t ever show how much a badass you are if you do not want all that responsibility**

[@swaghauler8334]

The Fat Electrician said it best... Specialists exist to do all the sketchy shit that E5s can't do themselves. The E4 gives the E5 "Plausible Deniability!"

[@bradleycred99]

Thanks for this E-4 Mafia history.

[@dm0065]

Specialist is the last rank where you can actually have fun in the service. Being a private mostly sucks, until you get at least a little competent, and being an NCO means dealing with a bunch of extra bullshit. At specialist, you're good at your job, nobody really messes with you, life is good. The army is right to squeeze those guys out if they don't want to move up, if I'm honest, because nobody in their right mind would pick being a SGT over being SPC, and somebody's got to step up. I was in for three years and left as a SPC. Perfect timing to get out. Any longer and the questions about why I'm not moving up would have started. Those SPC's with four years in start getting those sideways looks.

[@j.rivera6402]

You’ve obviously never been a Warrant Officer 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@clashnytech]

I remember an 8 year Spc.

[@viktorreznov4718]

Dean Joseph, how did s/he manage that?

[@dm0065]

@@clashnytech I saw one or two that were close to that too but the crazy thing was they were actually trying to go up. In my MI field they'd had a shortage and did a big recruitment drive and made the promotion points real low. This lured in some SPC's from admin, because the points in that job are crazy. But by the time they finished AIT and got to their station, the points were back up at 998. Poor fuckers went from the career frying pan to the career fire.

[@morganbangs2969]

Derek in the future don’t be such a dick. I’m proud of all I’ve done in Jrotc. Keep those comments to yourself

[@DagaYute]

You madman, you never talk about the E4 mafia

[@dc33w]

I served during OEF, OIF, and the financial crisis. No one was getting out of my MOS and points needed for promotion were 798. I was part of the E4 mafia for over 5 years. SPC from 18 months time in service until ETS at nearly 7. SPC(P) for most of that time. Specialists with no chance of promotion were the most awesome and unique group I served with.

[@taiven.lechevalier]

I’d have been more likely to stay in if I’d been able to a “doer” without having to lead until I was good and ready, while also getting respect for being a “doer”. But I took sergeant because I was tired of being shit on just because I was a specialist. Then I was a 20 year old E5 and felt like I had bitten off more than I could chew... not a good feeling when you are a wartime infantryman and people’s lives depend on you.

[@spiderking203]

Honestly that is my biggest reason I don't want to become a NCO. I can do my job but being a leader too just adds more stress and problems to it.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

How does that work Exactly? If your proven good and expert at your job rank should have NOTHING to do with it! U would just go to the guy with the skills to get the job done and could care less about "rank".

[@spiderking203]

@@JeanLucCaptain Because you get new responsibilities mainly other soldiers. Not everyone wants to be a leader and not everyone should be a leader.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

@@spiderking203 True but that's my point as long as you have the skill set and ability rank should be taken out of the equation at least in non combat situations. Somebody who's a proven real world quality should automatically outrank the new NCO with little practical experience.

[@dudejo]

@@JeanLucCaptain Ideally, the new NCO would listen to advice from people who've been around longer than him. However, that takes intellectual honesty.

[@lhunt1959]

Hello All, I retired in 1999, I was a Specialist/Spec 6 from 1981 to 1985. I 1985 another Spec 6 and myself were the last 2 Spec 6's to be converted to hard stripes. There was a large ceremony at Ft. Huachuca where I was assigned to the "Electronic Proving Grounds" (EPG test beds). We hated losing that rank, it set us apart from the regular hard stripers. It let you know that we were a technical experts and set you apart from regular Joe's.

[@triggeredsnowflake2507]

As a Specialist, I am a Flight Instructor for Unmanned Aircraft. In terms of paperwork, personnel management, and responsibility, it is equal to or greater than that of a platoon sergeant role. Only a few individuals at my unit have more flight knowledge than myself. Rank still does not equal expertise.

[@LuiBC3]

If I ever get my hands on that magic wand I’m bringing back the Specialist ranks. The Army’s extreme focus on leadership is largely misguided in my opinion. I like to say that in the military I’m a E-4 but in the civilian world I’m really like an E-6. I manage teams on the outside and whether it’s civilian world or military, there’s worker bees. They’ll clock in and clock out, get the job done, but I’m not putting them in a position of leadership because they either don’t have the desire to be or have the ability to be. And there really isn’t anything wrong with that. Sure you can learn to be a good leader, and if you want to be, that’s great, go for it when you’re ready. But forcing everyone into that position or forcing them out is just nonsense. Now you have the benefit of maintaining strong ranks of subject matter experts as well as strengthening the NCO corps by keeping bad leaders out, making the stripes actually mean something.

[@BCmachine]

E-4's are a high enough rank to not get shit on all the time, but low enough rank to where they don't take on much responsibility. As long as the E-4 is buds with the E-5 above them, life is good.

[@MrSirwolf2001]

I was lucky, for a while at least, that my direct superior was an E-7 who knew that I knew more than he did. His philosophy was to ask if I needed anything and then step back and stay tf out of my way. I got away with all kinds of stuff, but I never stopped dong my job and as a result, he got good NCOER's and made his E-8 right before retiring.

[@wolfenstien13]

@@MrSirwolf2001 The unknown hero whose efforts are known by none but only to himself.

[@BROTROLIN96]

@@wolfenstien13 that's a legendary comment sir, take this like

[@michaelrichardson9626]

I came in as a pfc and shortly after made e-4 i learned from all my battles what the sham shield was all about. The power of getting out of horrible details. I was up in the air about becoming E-5 but decided politics was running the military and it wasnt the same as it was back in the days so i did my time and got out.

[@jlhopwo]

Two stories- I joined the Army enlisted in July 1985, went to Fort Leonard Wood, MO for basic, then off to language school at DLI in Monterey, CA. I got there in late September a slick sleeve PV1. There were quite a few spec 5 and 6's. Just a few days later, at the start of the fiscal year, October 1, all of them got "hard" stripes. They were super happy. Next story. After language school and AIT, my first duty station was Fort Stewart, GA, the original "Camp Swampy" from the Beetle Baily cartoon. I got there a PFC, and later promoted to Spec-4. A bit later, I was made a team chief of the piece of equipment I used (Military Intelligence). My company commander "laterally appointed" me from SP4 to CPL. That was very cool. I was super happy. Not too many corporals around, especially in a non-infantry/armor/artillery battalion. I was still a CPL when I got to my next unit at Fort Meade, MD. Not a corporal in my whole MI Brigade! I got a lot of ribbing, but it didn't last long as I made SGT soon after arriving. Good times.

[@mugwump58]

SP4 so nice, I did it twice. There's an SP5 Honorable Discharge around here somewhere.

[@OlafoWaffle]

I had fellow NCO who's CAC said SP6... He was rather proud of that of it.

[@hhds113]

The Creed of the Specialist No one gets away with more than I. I am a non Non-Commissioned Officer, a beast of burden. As a junior enlisted soldier I realize that I am a member of an under appreciated, much chastised group of soldiers which is known as the ribcage, or perhaps pancreas, of the Army. I am proud of myself and my fellow Specialists and will continue to bitch, whine and sham until the absolute last second regardless of the mission at hand. I will use my grade and position to avoid responsibility, accountability and any sense of presence of mind. Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue "I didn't know," and "It wasn't me." I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry. I am aware of my role as a SPC and if you need me for anything, I'll be on appointment. I know the other soldiers, and I will always refer to them by their first name or in some cases derogatory nickname. On weekends, or days off I will consistently drink myself into oblivion, and I will never answer my phone. I understand that for a person in my hierarchal position, rewards are going to be few and far between, and punishment will always be swift and severe. Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, because I will be accomplishing them for them. I will kiss up to their face and badmouth them behind their back, just like everyone else. I will be loyal to those with home I serve, provided there's something in it for me. I am the last bastion of common sense that stands between me and the Army philosophy of "Work Harder, Not Smarter." My voice is a tool and my complaints are a weapon that I wield with unmatched skill and finesse. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget, Specialist is the greatest rank in the Army and rank has its privileges. From: www.humoretc.com/mhcontent/e4.php I remember hearing this when I was at WLC before getting my stripes.

[@lozano813able]

I can with out a doubt say I fully enjoy being a SPC. “Aye sarnt I got an appointment at 1330”

[@j18397]

“Aye sarge they told me to again tomorrow” 😂

[@jaycue7641]

And that is what it takes to be a truly great Specialist! I had a Soldier call his leader and say "Hey Sergeant, they told me the one day class was cancelled. I'm headed back to the COF right now!" He said, "You're really bad at shaming." That Specialist was me. Lol

[@jpotter2086]

Dad was a specialist in Vietnam, water supply. He was not the type to accept a leadership promostion! He worked for the next 25yrs in water reclamation. He died in 2022.

[@Lizana715]

2 years ago i exited the army at my RCP date. I was highly technical in my field and respected by NCO and Officers alike. My Sgt. Major would constantly ask me "Why not get promoted already?" Short and sweet. I do not want to be a leader. I do not want to lead, I want to do. I love my craft and I love fixing broken things. I love teaching new soldiers about the equipment and techniques of the trade. I do not want to babysit soldiers and teach them how to be an adult. I want to make my Command stronger threw my craft and skill. Sorry over half the NCOs in the Army today are straight crap. They got to were they are by memorizing a book and being a PT stud. There is far more to it than that. The Army is losing all its technical experiences because of RCP and crappy leadership. The Army made a huge mistake by taking away the Technical Ranks. That is why Contractors are needed so badly.

[@jaycue7641]

@bob dole you lost me at "I was in the National Guard. " :)

[@jaycue7641]

The fact that you loved teaching new Soldiers showed that you were ready to make a good NCO. The fact that you didnt want to babysit Soldiers makes you exactly the same as every other NCO in the Army.

[@jaycue7641]

@bob dole just saying that National Guard and Active Army arent similar at all.

[@jaycue7641]

@bob dole lol. A Larper in my Mom's basement? How dare you!? I do my Larping at the city park!

[@jaycue7641]

@bob dole and I'm not sure I understand your comment, but I think I have as good an understanding as possible having served in both branches. Lol

[@Name-ps9fx]

Thanks for this video, I’d always wondered about the mysterious “Corporal + T” patch I got when I was 9-10 years old. Some I could find out about in the encyclopedias my parents had bought, but that Technician patch I couldn’t find any info on it. A 45 year old mystery has been laid to rest...👍🏼

[@culloden23]

I’m a proud member of the E4 mafia.

[@alucardvanhellsing6805]

May the Sham Shield protect you from bs detail

[@aztecwarrior1421]

I used to be , till I got promoted

[@shadowwolf7622]

Roger that ! 4 year Spec 4. Best rank in the Army !

[@josephm6187]

@Azmol Hossain debt

[@JulezWinnfield]

Proud member since 1986.

[@outdoorfreedom9778]

Every man in my duty section was hand picked by a Colonel that just happened to be the AG of the base and best buddy of my section chief, a Staff Sargent. All of us were Civilian Acquired Skill critical MOS. We all came into the company close to the same time. We all made rank about the same time. We simply took over as the other troops ETS-ed. A smooth transition. We all made E-4 at the same time due to an IG Inspection. They liked to have as much rank as possible. WE all had 11 months in service. When I was up for E-5, A real promotion I gave it to one of the married guys. If you were married and living on base E-5 and above were moved home on the Army's dime. I went in after TET in 68 and got out in 70. In my pocket I had $186.00 a month after taxes. Charging the military tax is a government crime!! It was less than a weeks wage when I was working at Douglas! I was one of the few Expert rifle men so in my combat squad I was the Sharp Shooter then made a Grenadier. Today the VA takes care of me like I am a King!! All my bitching must have paid off!!

[@mathgasm8484]

I stayed as an specialist during my army time when promotion points were 799/800 to make E5. The sham shield served me well.

[@blue_diamond_gem]

Sham Shield.

[@MisterW0lfe]

I scrub barrels for no man

[@thesadprepper3722]

Im already learning the art of shamming as an E-3

[@malcolmbreval792]

PewPew Bois good, always remember... it’s not what’s on your chest. The shield comes from within.

[@mar10ssj1]

@@thesadprepper3722 remember: if you don't know anything, no one can blame you for doing nothing.

[@michaelmartin4552]

There was another problem with the higher Specialist grades. If you became eligible for Specialist 6, but there was no position for a Staff Sergeant, you would of course take that promotion. But a few years later you would realize you were stuck, as you were not an NCO. This led to some who wanted longer careers taking a reduction from Specialist 6 or 7 back down to E-5 Sergeant, so they could rise up once again in the hopes of reaching E-8 or E-9. The Specialist 8 and Specialist 9 rates were created, but never actually issued. And the Specialist 7 was as rare as hen's teeth (not unlike the CW5 "Unicorn" of today). So most Specialists could only hope to reach Specialist 6 where they stagnated until retirement.

[@peterharrison5833]

Very good video. Best historical overview of the specialist ranks on that I've seen on KZbin so far. Thanks for posting!

[@sylviamaresca8852]

I was a Spcialist 4 for 6 of my 8 years in. I held squad leader, and platoon sergeant and responsibility of each position. This was due to very high cutoff scores in my MOS 76Y20. I maxed time in service,time in grade,education,and awards points. I made E-5 and decided to get out .

[@marcelw6440]

The Army misses out on some real quality soldiers by making leadership mandatory. Anyone who has served can tell you they've seen these two soldiers: Specialist who knows his job better than anyone in his squad maybe even platoon but doesn't have the desire or ability to lead soldiers and Sergeant who has a decent understanding of his job and role, but has no business leading soldiers. Unfortunately the Specialist will eventually be forced out for not making rank while the Sergeant continues to advance the ranks until retirement. For this reason alone I think returning Spec5 and Spec6 to the ranks would be a solid move. You get retain good soldiers who WANT to follow while giving other soldiers who want to lead the time to develope and mature until they are reading to become NCOs.

[@WanderingVet587]

this is where good NCO's shine. they recognize this and groom them to become leaders and try to convince them the Army needs soldiers like them. the ones who stay go on to become great NCO's and leaders even if they thought they didn't have the ability to desire to lead soldiers.

[@MrSirwolf2001]

I wanted to be a true specialist. The Spc 5 rank was eliminated right before I enlisted. As a Spc 4 I was signed for $1.5 M of equipment and holding a SSG job (someone got royally reamed for that 9 mo later) . My boss was a SFC who at least knew what he didn't know and that he was no leader. We worked well together. I took over the shop from a long line of SSGts that had done NO work for over 18 mo (not even the weekly vehicle inspections) There were 21 pieces of motorized equipment most of which did not work and there was over $30,000 worth of missing equipment. The flight line ran 24/7/365 and so did I. I was considered "on call" 24 hours a day. 9 months later...ALL equipment was running and accounted for, including the piece which was "no longer in US military inventory" according to war stockage and for which I had to build/rebuild a part from 4 similar (but not the same or even from the same manufacturer) parts, and there were several new workstations, new equipment, new maintenance boards, and I had a rolodex full of names/rank of people in all 4 branches that owed me favors....I had also been gifted with several "unofficial" jobs such as flight line medic, flight line safety NCO and flight line vehicle licensing instructor (my boss had to sign off on the licenses though). Can I lead? yes. Did I want the headache? No way! 10 years after ETS I found myself de facto in charge of evacuation of a county animal shelter due to very rapidly rising flood waters when the female civilian staff "leaders" did not know what to do or even where to begin. 400 animals and nearly everything (food, medicine, supplies, desks, computers etc) in the shelter was moved several miles away and completely set up in 2 hours!

[@leoleonaids3684]

@@MrSirwolf2001 yes e4 mob. I was the best patriot missle reloader overseas. Crew chief and unit firearm trainer. We got shit for shaming 😎 but honestly our entire battalion was ran by e4s.

[@EarlCorgi]

Toward the end of my time in service I'd often end up in "leadership" positions anyway because of circumstances and because I was that E-4 that had the most experience in my job. I wanted nothing to do with "leadership", I was happy just doing my job. However it would get shit down on me because of war time circumstances. The worst frustration I'd have to endure is occasionally I'd end up under NCO's that had less experience than me, often because they were retreads, and they had no desire to listen to experience. As a retread they'd have the equivalent technical experience as a private fresh from AIT. You'd try to be polite and respect chain of command by talking to them when the other soldiers weren't around etc. However they'd just look at you like you were a piece of shit, they're an NCO, you're a forever specialist, you just need to STFU. Very frustrating shit, specially when it makes for shitty circumstances that had they just listened, could of been avoided entirely. To be fair that was rare. Most of the retreads NCO's I had come along were often very relieved to have me around. I agree with you that the Army doesn't seem to care about, respect or best utilize these soldiers. Often forever E-4's have equivalent technical experience to NCO's two grades above them. Often they have multiple combat tours under their belt etc. However they're viewed as shitbags because they don't want to promote up and eventually are driven out.

[@DrLoverLover]

Hahahahahahahaha

[@johnknapp952]

In the Navy we're kind of opposite of how the Army does things. Almost everyone is a specialist which is why we have our Rate added to our Rank insignia. But the Navy also has the same issue with "Up or Out", so for those of us who were "doer's" and had no desire (or skill) to be leaders it was always a struggle to do the work if you wanted to make 20 years. Which I did as an E-6.

[@isaiahbias5961]

Choose your rate, choose your fate

[@baronedipiemonte3990]

I was CG reserve and our NCOs had specialist rates. Twice a year HQ would come up with an arbitrary number of rate promo's. And if you made the cut off on the list you were promoted. "Opening" or not. I left in 97, but during my time you could park at PO3/E4 and actually do 20 as a E4. I know a few who were able to do that. But not anymore. You have to at least TRY to advance. In some rates it was damned near impossible to advance beyond E4/E5 because of an arbitrary number of promo's. The two hardest to get promoted were ASM (rescue swimmer aka Suicide squad) and GM gunner's mate. In my rate PS (port security, now defunct and mixed into MLE marine law enf) unless you were at the rock bottom of the list, you pretty much guaranteed to make E6/7 if you put in the effort. I was on the list for PO1/E6 and made the cut off when I was honorably discharged following a civilian job injury which killed both of my careers. They didn't promote me officially because they "said" it would be unfair to the next E5 under me who didn't make the cut off...but the day before he retired, a Vice Admiral officially "unofficially" promoted me several years after the fact. Sorta like the "Gunny" who was i THINK they made an "honorary" Gunnery Sergeant after his hon. discharge.

[@flight2k5]

No one in t he navy is a leader. The navy makes managers, the army makes leaders.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

Army in the 80s. It's almost funny how many "doers" were not at least offered opportunities to move out of combat arms and into "doer" fields elsewhere. While I was not even tempted for a second to reup, I might have taken that second if I knew I could have moved to something more interesting.

[@johnknapp952]

@@k.chriscaldwell4141 From what I remember the Navy was a little "kinder" about this. No wholesale getting rid of people, but giving people the opportunity to cross-rate into undermanned ratings or go to other Commands. Also offered "Early-out" retirements that were no where as good as regular retirements. I was lucky to do 20 years.

[@sdlonewolf]

When I was third I.D in Aschaffenburg, Germany I was a fire team leader as an E-3, as we were short personnel. When I was at Fort Polk, I made fire team leader as soon as I made E-4. we were also short on staffing. At the end of the day I loved being a specialist. I was considering reenlisting in 1993, but it was during Brac. The army was downsizing from around 765,000 active troops. There was no incentives to stay in. No bonuses, could not change Mos, and nobody even tried to talk you into reenlisting. The only thing I could get as a reenlistment bonus was a transfer back to Germany. I got out earned my B.A. and traveled to Germany during summer breaks for a total of 9 times. Don't get me wrong I loved the army, but at the end of the day there was no incentives to stay in at that time.

[@mopheousredpill7462]

Wow you loved Germany that much that you went back 9 times !

[@Revanavarice]

Wow... at one point, Specialist E-9 was an actual thing? Holy shit, Specialist Majors did exist! Dude, they need to bring back those douchebag rockers, just as a joke. One for every Article 15 endured or dodged, enlistments served in that grade, or amount of times promoted/demoted to that grade.

[@KAI-fi1fl]

No,

[@garycleveland6410]

No one actually got promoted to SP8 or SP9.

[@fedbia2003]

@@garycleveland6410 Oh really? Why was it setup then? Granted, I'd never heard of other specialist ranks prior to this video.

[@garycleveland6410]

@@fedbia2003 The Specialist grades came into existence in the mid 50's. They had grades from Spec 4 to Spec 9. No one actually got promoted to Specialist 8 or 9 largely because in 1968 the Army created the rank of Command Sergeant Major. The higher Specialist grades of 8 and 9 weren't really needed. Let's face it, if you aren't NCO material by E5 or E6, you should consider getting out of the Army. Lol! Specialist 7 was a grade until 1978 and Specialist 5 and 6 faded out in 1985.

[@fedbia2003]

@@garycleveland6410 Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Even something like CW3-5 still is really heavy with leadership.

[@arcticwolf7515]

Well, I must say, that was the best explanation of Specialist ranks I have heard in a long time. I joined the Army at a time when they were phasing out the higher Spec, ranks. I asked ward master what the difference was... He told that a Specialist could read and write. Laugh I spent the longest time as a Spec 4. I was a Sr. medic in an infantry unit, and was laterally promoted to Corporal. That was a big difference. A BIG change. I made E-5 to E-7 faster, than E-4 to E-5. You needed 998 points to make E-5 as a medic. 11-B made Sgt at 450 points. Hell, if you had a heartbeat you had 450 points... But the points dropped and I went to some schools that lowered the points. Great video.. Thanks

[@Phantom0fTheRouter]

Completion of Ranger school gave a 450 cutoff score.

[@evinchester7820]

I was an E-4/Spec in an E-6 slot. Doing the same job...but with E-4 pay. But after a while, just for fun, I started referring to myself as Command Specialist...... Some got it...others, well, let's just say they never ever would get it....lol

[@baronedipiemonte3990]

Hey, Good for you ! I was a USCGR PO2, E-5 (the first) performing duties previously held by Warrant & Commissioned Officers only. Back in my time they didn't have provisions for "frocking" (you aren't a Warrant but treated and insignia'd as if you were, but not paid the same). I was offered a direct commission twice (junior CG reserve Commissioned were liable to be sent anywhere in the district...at their own expense). And I was too damn old (35) to be an O-1/2, and no provisions for a direct Warrant. A few times when we were in plain clothes, i was unofficially "frocked" as a Warrant... Command Specialist sounds damn good. Might be on to something there...

[@serg890]

It was always said, “E4s win the wars.”

[@inorite4553]

Not in my branch. Here, everyone either is shiny rank, or a Senior NCO

[@Fede_uyz]

The specialist is the guy who you get when you need to wrangle up the privates, but its also the guy that is eternally busy with appointments so you never get to use him

[@wisemankugelmemicus1701]

Interesting. My grandfather was a Technician Fourth Grade so that was interesting to learn about.

[@dtbailey8910]

Entered the Army as an E1 in 1984 retired in 2014 as an E9. I did not know any of this. Thank you for educating me.

[@toad3222]

Damn thats impressive, hope you're well

[@ericfermin8347]

BS, pure unadulterated BS.

[@dtbailey8910]

@@ericfermin8347 How so?

[@ericfermin8347]

@@dtbailey8910 "I did not know any of this." I can buy that an E-9 might not know some of this, but all of this? BS. In 84 there were plenty of SP6's and SP5's walking around post.

[@dtbailey8910]

@@ericfermin8347 Ok, got it. I served with SPC 5 -6 in 84. I was a young 11B They worked in the DFAC. I was referring to the history of spc rank. I see your point. I should have been more specific. So if you think its still BS fill out a DF and send it up.

[@TheSheepDogPatriot1776]

US Army Military Police veteran here, 2001-2004 E-4 mafia. "This thing of ours" ( La Cosa Nostra) All the duties of an E-5, but not the pay. Was an Assistant Squad leader at E-3, and squad leader at E-4. Got treated and talked down to like an NCO, but didnt have the pull as an E-5. Most often times, We E-4s did the Grunt work E-5s, E-6s and some E-7s couldnt figure out.

[@johnmorgan9799]

Served in Panama during the Cold War. Ranks then allowed a specialist to be promoted to Specialist 5. We (my watch) never thought much of rank, because we did a job, a specialty. If a soldier was a Sergeant, he was listened to, we did what was asked, and that was it. We had a few NCOs and the officers were seen, but rarely heard. Three watches and the structure was the same. Competence was everything, NCO ranks were respected but had little to do with day to day operations.

[@manualramirez2973]

That was a informative video, good job.

[@omarrp14]

We should bring back SPC-5 (at special pay grade, less than SGT but like max E-4) nowadays, or make Corporal more common. There is sometimes no room for promotion, and there is a big difference in a SPC whose been in for 1.75 years vs 5 years. In my 5.5 years in, across 3 three units and three continents, I have probably seen less then a dozen CPL's.

[@BattleOrder]

I agree if nothing more than to remedy some of the up or out shitcannery. The tricky thing with the Corporal is you'd have to either restructure the way the leadership progression works (at least theoretically for the infantry), make them interchangeable with Sergeants, or just be content with them not having anything to officially lead. Corporals are rare because after 1944 they were officially basically just a rank you could afford a PFC to get them more pay, or give to a position that you wanted to be more experienced (like a weapon gunner), but Specialist 4 basically replaced it in that role as well. So now it's almost a punishment or tradition rank depending on the unit lol

[@thomasbrand2650]

Specialist especially makes more sense for MOSs without actual leadership rolls, like medics. When I'm attached to another unit, it's just me. I'm not leading anyone, nor am I under the authority of anyone except that units leadership. And as you said, there is a massive difference between a specialist with barely two years service (less if they came in with college) and myself with over 8 years in service. Even when you man an aid station, the PA and medical platoon sergeant (or otherwise designated aid station ncoic) will run that place and all ranks beneath that effectively mean nothing.

[@omarrp14]

@@thomasbrand2650 I'm signal my self. In a Battalion S-6 there are only 2 of me, one NCO and one Junior enlisted, so no room for advancement. In a signal unit there are more slots, but still CPL's aren't used. The current system isn't perfect, but at least we aren't stuck at E-3 like the other branches lol

[@1337penguinman]

@@omarrp14 Navy you don't really get "stuck" until you hit E-6, E-5 in some rates.

[@gotmil11]

@@BattleOrder it E4 specialist should be given a written technical test to see if they are ready for the rank (correction "SPEC5"), and corporal more of a NCO promotion board pass it stating they are ready for the next to being a E-5 sergeant. Like promotable statues for for infantry units. E-4 Specialist need to pass also the board to become E-5 sergeant too. I see a lot of E-4 getting stuck there because of point where you need get PERFECT scores on everything "785". So my solution to branch at E-4 and then join back at E-5. At some unit the rack of corporals was so NCO didn't need fill and sign the paperwork and corporal statues I think last about year. and then there promotable statues where technically make a higher than other E-4, but not really.

[@eaglehorse2043]

8 years in the military (4 1/2 regular army) and I never knew the history or the why of a specialist. When I was promoted to E-4 I didn't want 'specialist', I wanted corporal (or as we called it back then, Hard Stripes). Never got it. I wasn't an E-4 for long though. As soon as I got E-4 I was sent to PNOC. When I got back to my unit (2/11ACR 1980-1983) a month later I was sent to the "board". After I passed that (I was a current 16S but being a previous 11B helped with the points) I was given acting jack and wore the SGT stripes. They told me it would take 3 months before I was paid E-5. However, the following month, there it was. Thanks for the info! After all these years, it's finally explained!

[@thomasgarrison3949]

The Specialist "Super Grades" SP8 & SP9, which were in place from 1958 to 1968. They were Specialist ranks, even though nobody was ever promoted to those ranks.

[@lancethompson3431]

I did my 3 year hitch in the Army in the mid 1970's. I enlisted just as the army went all volunteer and they were scared s***less it would be a flop. I went in as part of the delayed entry program where you were sworn in up to 6 months prior to basic. I didn't understand at the time, but that gave me an automatic promotion to E2 (skeeter wings) while I was still in my basic training cycle. Our DI's didnt like it much and rode me pretty hard for it, but it bumped my pay grade 6 months earlier than the rest of the herd. At that time everybody who didn't have a guaranteed duty assignment (I didn't) was sent to Germany to wait for the Russians to invade. (glad they didn't). I stumbled my way up to SP4 in a year and a half, but the Army made it clear that the only way to make E5 (buck Sgt.) was to reup. No thanks to that I said. I saw a few SP5's but never saw a SP6. I also never saw a two stripe corporal my whole time in the OD. All in all it was a great life experience.

[@meatbyproducts]

We need Spec ranks back. Not everyone is an NCO and not every NCO is a master in their feild.

[@buzz5969]

Interesting…I was NAVY but served at a JOINT COMMAND, AF General CO and Army Col as his Chief of staff, anyhoo I haappened to be the SENIOR ENLISTED just below The Command CHIEF MASTER SARGENT and our FIRST SHIRT, at the time of our COMMANDS FIRST SARGENTs SMSGT (AF E-8) EMERGENCY LEAVE, FIRST SHIRT as some called them, and I took over in his duties during his absence, a definate eye opener for me and so glad I got the opportunity. He made CMSGT (AF E-9) on that tour. . My NAVY Department head was a NAVY CAPT 06; and the SENIOR LNO on that staff, and trust me thats a good thing, I was her NAVY SEA Senior Enlisted Advisor amongst other thangs…I feel So fortunate to have had the opportune to serve in those capacities! Serving on JOINT COMMANDS is NOT ONLY awesome IT PROMOTES TEAMWORK amongst the branches of services and the experiences that are invaluable. Only down side after that tour somehow I was turned into a permanent Staffer, only serving on Flag Officer staffs. No complaints. It was ALL Good and always new opportunities and new experiences gained. God bless ALL who served. 🇺🇸✌🏻🍻GO NAVY! ⚓️

[@jacksticker8633]

Being a single specialist was the happiest time of my life. I remember when I was promoted to sergeant. Terrible Terrible day.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

Ditto.

[@phalanxk9]

I love the OG Medal of Honor background music Also E4 mafia 4 life

[@joeystaley3181]

Something you left out: No Soldier has ever held the ranks of Spec 8 or Spec 9. Those ranks only existed on paper.

[@stankozlowski3084]

Excellent review.

[@BattleOrder]

Glad you liked it!

[@meanderingmarley3910]

I held eight different ranks during my Army career, but the most unique was Specialist 5 because it no longer exists.

[@lavellsims5185]

im a retired 1st sgt E-8 US ARMY 24 YEARS TWO YEARS IN VIET NAM AT THE AGE OF 17 YEARS OLD I LIKE YOUR ADD VERY MUCH im also a retired correcting officer from a state prison in pa i i know what it meant to be a specialist at one time i was a spc 6 hang in there troops bob sims

[@rogerhinman5427]

I spent most of my time at E-5 as a SP5. I was so happy when I finally got my SGT stripes.

[@rogerhinman5427]

@Tyler Now that I'm retired the extra money in that pension makes it all worthwhile.

[@dwlopez57]

Opposite fir me. I got promoted to sergeant then reenlisted to a more technical field and they said well now your a Spec 5.

[@Patriot-bn9om]

Great explanation of the history of these ranks. This clears up a lot of confusion. My Dad was a Specialist 3rd Class (E4) in the U.S. Army in Germany in 1955-1957. The sewn on rank on his uniform is identical, yet slightly smaller, to the Specialist/E4 rank today. He wanted to re-enlist and become a Sergeant, but was told he would have to be a Specialist 2nd Class so he got out. The specialist ranks did not have the prestige of Sergeants.

[@raulduke6105]

Actually served with a spec 7. Best medic ever

[@jackterry7664]

Thanks for the clarification! i was a Specialist E-5 during the 60's. Next step then was a Staff Sargent.

[@greggregory4654]

I made Specialist E-6 before converting over to the NCO ranks. I couldn't see any difference between being a Specialist E-4 through Specialist E-6 from a NCO Sergeant or NCO Staff Sergeant. Oh yea. As a NCO i was no longer authorized to wear civilian clothes or carry a sidearm 24/7/365. The duties remained the same.

[@tensortab8896]

There was a trend in the early 1980s to make SGT/E4s (acting jacks). I even saw an SSG/E5 once. My unit wanted to do that to me, but I talked them into making me a CPL instead. The admin types fought it, but my platoon sergeant kept pushing. I was the only corporal most people had ever seen in the Army back then.

[@mickey875]

I love when people who think they know about the army ask what my rank was in the army I tell them I was a specialist and they just look at me like an idiot and then they repeat the question and I tell them specialist is a rank and then they say they never heard of it and I tell them I quess you don't really know anything about the army

[@yorkarrages7617]

In the U.S. Army artillery ,Corporal rank was usually the assistant gunner position but you could find a Corporal who was in the gunner position and a specialist as the assistant gunner depended on staffing

[@hermangerman8446]

Here is the real reason why the Army has so many Spc/4's. I was there and caught up in the rigmarole. Up to the mid 80's there were still Sepc.4's, 5's, 6;s and a few Spc.7's. . Spc/4 and 5 were ranks in both support MOS's and Combat Arm's. Spec 6 and Spec 7 were in support MOS's only. Actual Specialists (Subject Matter Experts) in their MOS's. Then we had Acting Sergeant's (Acting Jacks). Acting Jacks were authorized in Combat Arms MOS's only. Acting Jacks were Spc/4's who were promoted to Sergeant because they were promotable, showed the leadership skills but the cutoff scores remained high in certain MOS's to the point for months there would be no promotions in those MOS's. There was also the fact that in Armor, the Rank of Corporal was not authorized, although a few guys did get promoted to Corporal. I was a Tanker, cutoff scores remained at 998 for long periods. So they made me an Acting Jack, around 1985. They did away with all of the Specialist Ranks except Spec 4 because the Army said if you can hold a leadership position as a Specialist, then you should be wearing Hard Stripes. That is completely false since they didn't just make people in leadership positions Hard Stripes, they made everybody Hard Stripe. Laterally transferring all those people from the Specialist Ranks to Hard Stripe was done as a morale booster. The same reason the Army Service Ribbon and the Army Achievement Medal were approved by General Rogers, those were both for Morale purposes. Prior to the rank structure changes you had to wait for allocations to come down to being promoted to Spec. 4. Just because you had time in grade and time in service did not mean you were going to get one of those allocations. You had to show leadership potential and ability, and when I was promoted to Spec. 4, just like Sergeant E-5, I had to go to a local Board. And I still have my Spec. 4 board paperwork. Spec. 4's at the time were addressed one way, Yes Specialist and No Specialist. There was none of this informal shit. The Army was going to do away with Spec. 4 when it did away with the rest of the Specialist Ranks, but realized if they did that, there would be no stepping stone to the NCO ranks. The Army reviewed the entire rank structure at that time. Then they did away with Acting Sergeant when they realized there were UCMJ issues. The issues were that, under the UCMJ, if an Acting Sergeant was to get busted, you could only be reduced to Spec 4, well you were already a Spec. 4, while a Sergeant E-5, would also get reduced to Spec. 4. There was no way to reduce an Acting Sergeant the same way you could reduce an Sergeant E-5. So that did away with Acting Sergeant, and we were called in that day across the Army, reduced back to E-4 and automatically laterally transferred from Spec 4 to Corporal. That actually turned out to be a good thing because the Army now had a shortage of Sergeants and a bunch of us were finally able to get promoted to Sergeant (Me and my friends within a month) because they had to drop the cutoff scores. They were getting us as Sergeants without the Sergeant pay. But we actually never looked at it like that, Selfless Service means serving with no expectation of reward. The Sergeant pay didn't matter. But we all did want to be promoted of course. We Acting Sergeants were also lower Pay Grade than a Spec 5, but outranked Spec 5's. Acting Sergeants could be Tank Commanders for example, Spec 5's were not supposed to be in Tank Commander positions. Although some were and were only Spec. 5's because of an overage in Sergeants in certain units. Otherwise they would have automatically been hard stripe Sergeants. A 1SG ot CSM could transfer a Spec 5 back and forth from Sergeant to Spec 5, and back, with Commanders approval. Which did piss some people off. A simple DF and one day you are a Hard Stripe wearing Leadership Tabs and the next day Spec 5. Leadership Tabs back then were only for Combat Arms and only for Hard Stripe Sergeants of all Sergeant ranks. So after they streamlined the ranks, what happened and the reason there are so many Spec 4's is it became a "Time in Service, Time in Grade" Rank. There is no requirement to show any leadership skills, no requirement to hold any leadership positions, and no requirement to do anything. Board or anything else. As a Tanker I worked with Marines a lot, including as their Instructor at Knox, served with them during the first Gulf War, they were attached to us, and then again during OIF II, I was an Instructor at Camp Yankee. Marine Lance Corporals are NCO's, period. Lance Corporal is an NCO Rank. But it is still a stepping stone to the Sergeant Ranks. That is what the rank of Spec 4 was prior to all the rank changes and and what it was intended to be after, and the only reason it was kept in the rank structure in the first place. Instead of being earned, it became a reward. For time in service and time in grade as a PFC. And because of that, it also turned into a glorified Private Rank. I served all the way from 1980 post 9/11 and into OIF II as a Military Contractor. I didn't just step off the Boat. The reason there are more Spec 4's than all the Private Ranks put together is because around 1993, after the big 1992 Drawdown which just about wiped out the army, the "stepping stone" to Sergeant went out the window and the rank of Spec 4 became just another rank which was also used as a reenlistment incentive. You could just as well call it Private 4th Class and it would be the same thing. Other changes that were made or recommended at the same time. Officer Frocking was banned. Someone that frocked the last General at Fort Hood after the ban caused all kinds of uproar around the Army, made it into the Army Times and Stars and Stripes and other papers. Aviation Warrant Officers were Commissioned to Command Aviation Units. They were already Commanding but lacked legal authority in Command at the time. CWO 5 was created. And the recommendation to make all Tank Commanders Warrant officer positions was thrown out although making Tank Platoon Sergeants Warrant Officers nearly made it through it created other problems and was also thrown out. The way the system was streamlined, there should be about a quarter of the number of Spec. 4's there are today and it should have been a competitive rank. After the changes were made, Spec. 4's started being rated the same way as NCO's are rated and on the same NCOER form (EER at the time). The only difference is a Spec. 4's rating was local. Meaning it didn't go into your permanent record. Up until it became a time in grade, time in service only rank. Spec. 4's were the equivalent of Marine Lance Corporals but a pay grade higher. all of that went out the window, to the detriment of Spec. 4's generally, when everybody and their brother and sister started getting promoted to Spec. 4 automatically just by having enough "time", and leadership development at that rank really no longer mattered. Pre 1992 Spec 4's were treated like NCO's, addressed like NCO's, went to boards or were awarded allocations to that rank based on ability and potential, and if you were really good they would pin Sergeant Stripes on you before you even got promoted up to the mid 80's, you were rated the same way NCO's were rated, and as a Spec 4, I and at least four of my fellow Spec 4's were Tank Commanders, all of us became Senior NCO's and retired, and one of us became Sergeant Major of the Army. I just spoke to two of them today. It is, of course no longer that way and has not been for a long time. At that time, there was a hell of a lot expected of you as a Spec 4, that is not expected of you today. Spec 4's were also Specialists in their areas in Combat Arms until "Up or Out" went into effect in 1987. In 1987 I had two friends at Fort Polk. One was a Spec 4, one was a Sergeant E-5, both were nearing 20, when "Up or Out" went into effect they were both grandfathered over. They were both also Vietnam Vets and one of them had done SIX tours in Vietnam and was married to a Vietnamese woman. Both were Gunners and both would tell you the same thing, they didn't want to be anything other than Tank Gunners. Retention Control Points did not go in effect until 1987, you could actually retire as a Spec 4 or Sergeant E-5 back then.

[@mikevanroy9356]

Back in the day if you were a Specialist filling in as Assistant Squad Leader or higher because the actual NCOs were on leave or in training or something and you filled that position for at least 3 consecutive months they put Corporal stripes on you. Sometimes if you were a Specialist and had been to what was then known as PLDC or had passed the E-5 board or had enough promotion points to Sergeant they would make you a Corporal to give you some leadership experience but this wasn't common. Usually it happened if your enlistment was likely to end before an E-5 slot opened up and they would give you higher rank to keep you in.

[@canadadelendaest8687]

Man, that's my story. I wanted to be a doer but not a leader. 6 year spc, denied the promotion board monthly for years. Bring back spc ranks! Not everyone wants to move up! Some of us just want to do our jobs

[@LDrumsOhio]

This was nice. Thanks for the band shout out too!

[@xray86delta]

I never heard the expression "E4 Mafia", but we were referred to as "overpaid privates" when I was in the army. 😉 For the most part, the only Advantage was you could drink in the NCO Club!

[@chillsharks367]

E4 Salty rant inbound: I left the Army as an E4. A rank I held for FOUR years. During that time, I: - Competed SSD1 and 2 - Scored 246 on my PT - Always shot Expert - Completed a BACH degree to go green to gold. - Was a squad leader for over a year - Passed a Sift test for flight school with qualifying GT score. - Had stupid amounts of promotion points due to my extracurricular activities. - Worked in HQ for 3 cumulative years (often doing the commanders work that I was NOT meant to do) - Single handedly (and with some "drug deal" style favors I called in from S1) Rewrote a huge policy for family visitation during Operation Atlantic Resolve that went to FORCECOM. 2 Star approved. My name was not even mentioned during the leadership circle jerk. - Lead my NCO's out of a rocket attack during heavy bombardment because, they froze up. (Uncredited as that would make the NCO's look bad) - Was called upon CONSTANTLY by my NCOs to help them do their jobs because they were "confused" or just lazy. - Became a "squad daddy" (seriously my NCOs would tell my guys to go find your "daddy" if they needed anything) to all of the hopeless soldiers that the NCOs had not the patience nor the skill to correct and train. - Regularly argued with my NCOs and "won" due to being a regulations nerd. "winning" means they don't F*** you up when you get mad and nothing changes. - Was board promotable for 2 years. - I had enough dirt on my leaders from their dirty work that I could have filled every pothole west of the Mississippi river. Look, I could go on. You don't have to believe anything I'm saying. However, if you do (ESPECALLY if you are E-4 or below or considering joining the army) Listen carefully: *DO NOT TRY TO BE A STELLAR SOILDER IF YOU WANT TO GET PROMOTED. YOU WILL DIE TIERD.* Seriously. I had a Solider who was so hopeless, he would try to follow me into the bathroom because he "did not know what to do" when I was not around. HIs barracks mate (my friend) told me he would stay up at night just staring into the void or at him while he slept. He was a mouth breather. He had NOTHING in his room but a TV and a desk, and the TV was dusty and unused. He drove his truck over A MAJORS BMW IN A PARKING LOT. He did a Burnout into a Conex Container. IT GOES ON. Dude was promoted to SGT. Then after like 6-7 months in rank he got tagged with SHARP. Out of all of my asshole leaders that told me I did not know shit: 3 were found with drugs 3 were charged with SA 2 were charged with DUI's 2 were charged with spouse/child abuse over my career and more. (That I know of) A lot of my favorite hard charging, accountable, and most reliable NCOs committed suicide. Often leaving children behind. This is a few of many examples as to what is wrong with the army right now. Another sad fact? The suicide rate of veterans is 22% higher than civilians. What's more surprising? The rate of suicide between combat vets and non-combat vets are NEAR EQUAL. Meaning, the core reason for suicide was much more explainable through simply being in the military. Not combat. So, to all my non-deployed fellow vets, DO NOT beat yourself up if you wanted to deploy. YOU ARE DOING THE HARD PART. Back to the matter at hand. You wanna get promoted? Be a D*** sucking yes man. DONT MAKE WAVES EVEN IF YOU THINK IT IS RIGHT. Of course, this is not always the case. Just be prepared. Too sum up my army experience: Your leaders will not piss on you if you are on fire unless there is a PP touch in it for them. Getting out was the best thing I've ever done in my life. I am WAY more successful on the outside now that I have 8 years formal education and combat veterancy under my belt. Which to be fair, the army did spring my life forward by means of experience and money for college. It has a price, however. The Army still might have something to offer you. I'm not saying you should not join. Don't base it all on my experience. Just be ready to come out with enough salt to season an omelet the size of the sun if it goes wrong. I hear reserves and National Guard are better deals. UNTIL THE ARMY FOCUSES ON THE DOER's, THE ARMY WILL BE IN POOR SHAPE AND RETENTION WILL STAY LOW. TRUE CHANGE STARTS FROM TOP DOWN. NOT BOTTOM UP. To all of my other brothers and sisters who are in, I HOPE that your career is going better and that your experience is different. Keep up the good work and thank you for what you are doing. The joes are almost all that matters at the end of the day anyhow. Okay salt rant over.

[@KavemanKevin1]

E-4 is not a pay grade, it’s a state of mind😏🤣

[@captainobvious9233]

The best thing about being an E-4 is when their is a detail that needs to be done and you hear "I need all E-3s and below...."

[@williambrown7203]

78-81 in our platoon, we didn't have any e-5 sergeants. We went from private ranks to spec 4, then spec 5. The spec 5's (I was a spec5) served as squad leaders and had to go to leadership courses just like the hard stripes in the firing platoons. Promotions after spec5 was to staff sgt. I was a Field Artillery Surveyor in a Lance Missile unit in Germany.

[@derekquintal]

I was very happy as a specialist, I could work my mechanical magic and then drop out of sight, everybody always said , yeah he's around here somewhere!

[@W8ASA]

I went in the Army as an E1, promoted to E2 and E3 in language school, then promoted to SP5 when I graduated from language school. At the time, I had 11 months TIS. I never was an E4. Made SP6 at three years. Good times 1966-1970. ASA All The Way

[@jeffreygunn3530]

Basically, a Specialist is the "full performance level" grade for a basic soldier. If you look at the grade authorization tables, you won't see any positions designated for E-1 to E-3. Those are essentially "apprentice" grades.

[@jtrev492]

Really enjoying the Medal of Honor music in the background!

[@CaptainAhab117]

I can count on one hand the number of CPL's I knew when I was in.

[@johnmorris7209]

CaptainAhab117 I was in the Army from 6-1970 to 6-1973 as a 12b and I never saw a hard stripe CPL. at either posting, Vietnam or Germany.

[@at6062]

Same. Like maybe 5.

[@CaptainAhab117]

@@johnmorris7209 One of them only made corporal because she was an xrey tech that got pregnant so they make her training nco for the company.

[@DeltaEchoGolf]

In 2011, I was a Army reservist attached to a active duty unit at NTC for annual training. Before going to the field, they promoted 4 or 5 to corporal. In the field, when the sergeant would leave. It was like they had turned off the lights as they were leaving the kitchen. And all of a sudden the corporals would show up and tell us how it was going to be!

[@gotmil11]

2 from me

[@Rocketman88002]

When I was in the Army, a SP-4 was qualified for KP, guard duty, police call, rock painting and snow shoveling just like a Private E-1 was. It was funny to see an E-4 Corporal bossing a detail with a bunch of speedy fours or fives in it.

[@jimplaysbadly3881]

I knew NCOs who used the term "Private Major" derisively, but that is exactly what a SPC is

[@macsdaddy3383]

Very informative historical review of Army enlisted ranks. Plus I loved the photographs.

[@akasgsvirgil9503]

The two best enlisted ranks to have are E4 and E7.

[@IanCaine4728]

Also, with the timing of automatic promotions you'll probably be encouraged/forced to reenlist before they'll consider you for E5. So if you make E4 with 18 months or less on your contract, you'll leave the service at E4.

[@Soulessdeeds]

Being a E-4 was great most times and complete shit others lol. And while I did go on to E-5. I did miss being more hands on in my MOS as a E-4 than I could as a E-5. But as a E-5 I got to train junior soldiers and see them grow as mechanics and soldiers. So E-5 did have its good times as well. But just allot of head aches too.

[@ralphbalfoort2909]

Due to screw-ups in the States through Basic and AIT, I went to Thailand as a PV1. My new company quickly corrected that, and I got the back pay I deserved. Then, due to a relatively high turnover of personnel, I rose quickly to PFC and then SP4. Shortly before PCS back to the States, I was promoted to pay grade E-5, but with a difference. Because I knew the right person in the right position, I was promoted to SGT instead of SP5. As I approached the end of my 3-year active enlistment period (I volunteered; I was not drafted.), I took the promotion exam for E-6. Shortly after, I was granted an "early-out" to return to college; I never did find out how I made out on that E-6 exam.

[@jetthelooter]

I would have stayed in as a e4 in the army if I could have. I just didnt want the bullsht of being a "leader" I enjoyed being a doer

[@matthewcandler4179]

I'm not in the military, but this was a great video for understanding corporate roles and titles to especially organizing technical and leadership roles.