BATTLETECH: The Problem With Late Star League Mechs

[@meining-mech4378]

I’ll admit, I never payed that much attention to these designs and how they were “inserted” in the backstory that is the Star League. It certainly is thought provoking.

[@BigRed40TECH]

It's definitely been on my mind as I approach covering these mechs. lol

[@tsiefhtes]

Rather than write the new designs into the past to make them contemporary designs to old classics they should have been written in as designs that were unfinished prototypes during the fall of star league. That would allow the new designs to remain continuity while having a starleague connection possibly as something someone could work into a star lake error campaign or something with a lost tech catch without really messing up the setting Canon. Then the starlink Royal bearings to be introduced as you said as a anticlan combat upgrade.

[@KuK137]

@@tsiefhtes Also it begs the question why the clans were upgrading old crap not stuff like Devastators or Nightstars. Timber Wolf should be upgraded variant of these, not glorified Catapult 2.0...

[@jasonashman9534]

@@KuK137 I don't think it's a glorified Catapult so much as it is a Clan omnimech take on the MAD. The SLDF had an obsession bordering on fetish with the Marauder, so it only makes sense that they would perfect the design. The LRM boxes make the Catapult assumption natural, but the mech's characteristics are all about maximizing the battle characteristics amd capabilities of the Marauder

[@eddapultstab2078]

@@KuK137 the devastator never went into production, it was a proposed design that was canceled due to star league falling apart. The nightstar only had a few years production before marik destroyed the production lines and the engineers and design team behind, also the clan civil war destroyed the ones that were brought with them. Also the the nightstar, atleast, is practically the perfect evolution of the marauder. all Clan tech is going to do is make it a little lighter or, only, slightly more dangerous, I mean three, 15 point attacks would be really scary but it still has all the right moves in all the right places. The mad cat, by design, is designed specifically to dab on the the haters. It's really a celebration of the power of clan tech. Being a combination of the catapult and marauder is just a happy accident on creating the ultimate all around combat platform.

[@st4rm4st3r]

this is my hot-take, especially considering that i came in to the IP during the Clan Invasion era when i was a kid, but learning what i have and taking in as much of the old lore as possible, i only enjoy the Star League era simply because of the at times heart-wrenching political upheavals and the many stories of war, loss, and what could have been, the Camerons reveled in the WORST kind and levels of nepotism, and Alexander Kerensky was a man too good and honorable for the horrors of the InnerSphere, only to have his legacy ruined by his delusional eldest son...the Star League stories are absolutely heartbreaking, especially with what came after.

[@gufbrindleback]

The BattleTech I bought, way back in the 80's, was about empires of salvage, with ancient machines kept barely running by people who didn't understand them and couldn't build more - unless they still had a working automated factory somewhere. I think that part of the setting was too-quickly abandoned, in favor of a technology arms race.... and really deserves a lot of development and attention.

[@WayoftheFerret]

Newer player here, isn't this theme what the Dark Age was trying to return to?

[@Taurox220]

Dark Age also got rid of most of the cool battlemechs and forced people to play with mostly industrial mechs and vehicles.

[@honstalys]

@@PeachDragon_ Battletech continues to advance it's timeline. Not Quickly, but we had Star League, Succession Wars (1-3), 4th succession war and the rise of FedCom, Then the clans, Fedcom civil war, Jihad, Republic of the Sphere, Dark Ages and now Ilclan. We continue to get new novels and they slowly move forward in time. At a digestable pace. That said, most of us like the Clan Invasion era... or just before it. 3025-3050 is probably the golden age of play. Though I wish I could find more books and source books for the Fedcom civil war or Jihad.

[@klortikterra4423]

well that just sounds like the mechanicus from 40k. maybe if the two concepts were blended into a nice "Comstar" brand cake?

[@bronco5334]

It wasn't "too quickly abandoned", exactly. There are hundreds of years of Succession Wars for which that is precisely how life in Battletech is. But yes, that was the starting point, and FASA and the novels moved on from the starting point of the "empires of salvage" and told the story of rising back out of the dark ages of the Succession Wars. ...which is why I absolutely HATE the Jihad and Dark Age storylines; because they take a story of rising out of a galactic-scale nuclear post-apocalypse with feudal states ruled by the privileged few who own ancient, irreplaceable technology, and chose to just erase the entire story and reset it right back into that galactic nuclear post-apocalypse. If Wizkids wanted to play up the apocalyptic fall-of-technology side of Battletech for a grimdark Clickytech game, they really *should* have just set the game in the 2900s or something, rather than executing a full U-turn on the entire trajectory of the story. We already had a time period in Battletech where we could play "dark ages", and that was the Succession Wars.

[@Alpha_Digamma]

These overpowered Battlemechs would have a role in the lore if: a) still in development stage at the fall of the Star League with maybe a dozen prove of concept propotypes ever built b) SLDF never put an order in because of way too high production costs compaired to existing models like Atlas etc.

[@BigRed40TECH]

The Pillager and Emperor are both from the Reunification Wars. :(

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@BigRed40TECH I'd thought Emperor was all the way back in the late Age of War.

[@BigRed40TECH]

@@DIEGhostfish Yep, but I'm saying they existed far enough back to be in the Reunification Wars.

[@codyraugh6599]

@@BigRed40TECH to this whole arguement the BEST example is a mech most people blatantly forget, the Toro. A cheap mech that because the Star League ended its production, yet it's basically a better Urban able to more or less compete with lightly armed medium mechs, and the modern version (the only post unification varient) is made with primitive tech making it cheaper than a urbie if a relatively crap mech. But still the design is great and it's not arms racing or "Alexander's personal mech that outperforms an atlas but he never used for 'reasons'" instead it didn't have a presence BECAUSE the star league didn't wany a rival to have a mech that could compete.

[@oscarcoastwilde]

I like this idea and will basically use this as my personal fancanon as to why none of these appear any earlier than 3025 in any game or campaign I run tbh

[@andrewwelham8633]

I think, that this is the best analysis of the battletech world and game that I have witnessed from you. Well done. I agree with you that those 3058 'clan busting' mechs probably should have been new construction by inner sphere engineers gaining more experience and expertise with the recovered technology and the things that would be required to combat the clans

[@BigRed40TECH]

Apparently the Cerberus and Gunslinger just weren't enough, lol.

[@Ylyrra]

The narrative of building "better than the Star League" with recovered LosTech because of years more experience with combat is more compelling to me too. Inner Sphere at the time of the Clan Invasion has more experience but not the know-how, Star League has more know-how but didn't have the same experience, put the two together and something mightier emerges. It just feels good as a concept.

[@andrewwelham8633]

@@BigRed40TECH Right!

[@samuelbennett3441]

More of these should have been like the Devastator, which was a last minute superweapon that only ever saw action once when Kerensky attacked Terra, with a single prototype model in a single engagement, with the plans salvaged from the Dallas memory core. Instead we have the Pillager being a reunification war mech, and the Emperor ridiculously being the THIRD MECH EVER DESIGNED.

[@RobtheStampede]

Not the Pillager or Emperor from TRO: 3058 though. The Reunification War Pillager is a King Crab that trades its LRM and LL for jump jets. The original Emperor has a popgun arsenal built around AC/5s of all things.

[@nurgle333]

[@TehSquare]

I might catch some flak, but the RetroTech designs like the Swordsman, Ymir, Firebee, and Hector that used primitive tech or some IntroTech fit in a lot better, they were the first and they have drawbacks that make you realize why they were replaced.

[@diggman88]

Yeah I really like the swordsman for the background it gives. It's like in the 1940s where we went from a 20 ton "medium" to an average of 45 tons. The swordsman is a good design, but in the modern era it's 15 tons too light to be a real medium.

[@TheInsomniaddict]

I like most of the Retrotech, but one that can't really be explained away is the Gladiator. I find it to be one of the best mediums in its updated form. Even primitive it's actually quite good.

[@wisecrack4545]

​@@TheInsomniaddict I personally thought the Gladiator was one of the few mechs they did right where there wasa semi reasonable explanation in the fluff as to why it mostly disappeared despite its potential. The Combine completely wrote it off because it lost the IS first ever large scale mech vs mech combat, with several of their Gladiators being defeated by the Lyran Commando which was less than half its weight. Combine didn't even try to revisit issues, they just straight up abandoned it. Then the Hegemony company that obtained the rights to the mech nearly went bankrupt trying to develop and produce their upgraded variants of it, so stopped making military products altogether. Upgraded Gladiator 4R was well ahead of its time but with only a small number being produced overall, it never really got the chance to prove itself and overcome the bad reputation the mech had after the Combine abandoned it. Mostly just faded into obscurity as newer mechs came along. Made sense compared to a fair few other mechs that were introduced and backdated to being around in Star league era.

[@TheInsomniaddict]

​@@wisecrack4545 Yeah, the fluff is pretty good for justifying why the Gladiator failed. The Terran company taking ownership of the IP likely meant others couldn't pick up production themselves, and being Terran they had a harder time selling to other states. Basically the failure was based on legal issues, not the design's merit. Power-wise the 4R is about the best cavalry mech you could hope for (Level 1), and while the 1R wasn't an inspired design it was better than most/all of its contemporaries. I guess the issue is that few saw the 4R and while the 1R is decent it was old tech.

[@nurgle333]

[@heirofaniu]

Honestly I think that a lot of these being Comstar designs would fix the issue and also really make Comstar look more powerful. They had nearly four centuries of uninterrupted peace and prosperity as the space wizard illuminati, they should have been able to make super good mechs. So instead of Royal Division make them Comguard Division, they're way better than whatever everyone else is making but still look similar enough to regular variants that they won't raise immediate suspicion, and then the Clan Busters can also stay as what they were as last minute measures to crank up the Comguard's power as much as possible for Tukkayid.

[@gokbay3057]

It would make sense that ComStar would be able to advance like the Clans did even if less so. Like if ComGuards kept Star League era mechs and were still making them it only makes sense that they can produce them. Meaning unlike the Great Houses they have not lost tech. Yeah, that's perfectly reasonable.

[@magni5648]

That "uninterrupted peace" was essentially a nonstop shadow war with the Great Houses behind the scenes, while military R&D was not exactly a big priority for ComStar when it regarded anything other than toys for ROM. The ComGuard were consistently the red-headed stepchild at the budget meetings before Mad Myndo got in charge. A lot of theoretical knowledge in databanks, a big pile of mothballed Star League equipment and a bunch of paper soldiers that mostly never saw a single fight in their careers.

[@heirofaniu]

@@magni5648 I am aware. It would still be significantly less of a retcon than what we have.

[@JohnSmith-zi6xz]

I think the best way they could have handled the clan buster revisionist mechs would have been to say they started with older tech of the SLDF era but got modified and upgraded with high end tech when the successor states decided to revive the designs. Overhauling the old designs into new modern versions to cut down on development time of new mechs using lostech recovered from the Helm Memory Core.

[@BigRed40TECH]

I mean, they tried doing that with the Pillager with its "basic" model, and it still removes any need for the later design of the Atlas or King Crab. Then they intro'd its later model way too earlier anyway, making it a competitor to the Highlander, thus, making the Highlander look bad too. lol

[@jasonthomas9596]

In truth red I could write this office that they're just incredibly expensive and only a few of them were built. I mean for my price point standpoint the Highlander is a much better pic in an army unit you leave high-end toys for special forces operations like you're using small units to get s*** done. I check it out imagine you're a star league regiment. Many of the old designs are if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of thing and in truth none of the other clients States would have been on par with the star league or just their standard mechs I can see the Royal variance as a means of giving the turn and chimney The edge they need but it's an expensive edge how you could write it up as only certain units got to have these things in detail like let's say the black watch for one. And having said that I do agree with you there's a power creepier and I do agree maybe come Stars should have updated them as a latest addition to their thing. I mean realistically ppcs didn't start to come back for interfere weaponry in my opinion until the heavy PPC came out. That and having gauss', rifles extended range lrms,the the tandem charge srms, those are all things that came planned invasion and beyond. I mean hell in my opinion the light PPC is all an effective tool and hellishly range accurate. You got to put like four of them together before you can start doing some real successive damage to anything they really up gun lights and medium Mechs. It's kind of like the plasma rifle I love the plasma rifle it actually gave a reason to have any kind of ammunition based weapons for light medium Mechs.

[@adrianocs4]

They could have introduced them as "old" in development designs at the time of the STLD, like having only a few prototype semi-functional pilagers produced whith an intact blueprint inside the memory core.

[@jasonthomas9596]

@@adrianocs4 I actually like that as a lore friendly way of handling it.

[@jasonthomas9596]

@@samphadhavihara4035 I can agree with that . I don't use light PPC in my table top game because I play 3025

[@carlosrgns]

a better justification would have been that the Amaris queue prompted a ton of experimental designs and the prototype plans was what was uncovered, royal mechs do make sense imo

[@imasspeons]

Coup*

[@thorveim1174]

and on top we have proof Amaris did try at the very least to develop new mechs, as the Matar attests (which later was turned into the Stone Rhino thanks to clan tech). And I doubt the Matar was the ONLY things the scientists at his disposal ever worked on

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

@@thorveim1174 good example is the Dragoon, a sort of Omni-Lancelot that was prototyped in the star league civil war

[@michaelkolano8686]

Personally, I feel like these "optimized" mechs would have worked well as originally being one-off prototypes from people with fuck-off money, and an ego to fuel. like dukes, kings, CEOs, etc. Then you could have the factions recreating or salvaging them, and learn that (in the setting) there's real reasons why they weren't standardized on. Like a Robotic Vasa they'd be dangerously flawed or merely impractical.

[@ExeErdna]

The Pillager fits that example, some jackass had the money and manpower for one REALLY nice hotrod of a mech. Yet oh woe will they be trying to repair it because they legit made it a one of one overall.

[@eddapultstab2078]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the rim worlds republic, I could see amaris, under war economy and full of ego, demanding as many of these mechs as they can be produced.

[@NeroLordofChaos]

​@@ExeErdnaOr it was set to be a production mech but another, more affluent customers basically bought out the factory to fill their own army's need and the design was shelved to fill the more pressing order so the design was both existent and blueprinted but most good quality examples either being mothballed due to one reason or another

[@lexington476]

As far as defeats that Rome suffered at the height of its empire, let's quote Augustus , "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!"

[@Sargonarhes]

Ah , you speak of the 3 Roman legions lost in the Teutoburg Forest to a force of estimated 10,000 Germanic tribesmen.

[@malusignatius]

See also: Julius Caesar's attempted invasion of Britain and Crassus vs. the Parthians.

[@RogueSabre]

Recon was never their strong suit

[@davidgantenbein9362]

On the military side the difference between the Roman Empire and the early Dark Ages wasn’t necessarily one of technology. With the Empire and it’s vast economy gone, there was simply no bigger organization to support something as big as the Roman army. War moved on to smaller units, warlords and tribes, because that was what was left. In the late days of the Roman Empire it already heavily relied on German warriors and alliances with tribes. Those were not less capable warriors, it was more that climate change, hunger and pests eradicated vast amounts of Romans and crumbled their manpower. The Empire simply couldn’t be maintained anymore.

[@filipmaly6603]

Well it is not the best example. See Tiberius and Germanicus .

[@corranhuss]

Interesting to hear of this, GW did similar stunts in both fantasy and 40k

[@BigRed40TECH]

And Battletech likely did it before most of the things you're thinking of in WH, lol

[@corranhuss]

@@BigRed40TECH Just hand a conversation with someone about the black watch and 40k lucifer black and he couldn’t believe, that not only GW didn’t come up with them first, 1992 vs 2008, but that the black watch is based on a real unit.

[@AWholeLegionary]

@@corranhuss *SCOTLAND FOREVER!*

[@NishidateKitsune]

@@corranhuss Yes. And in BTech it's actually mentioned in Lore that the 'Mech, the unit (Royal Black Watch) AND the Northwind Highlanders, were based on the RL unit and (SOUND THE BAGPIPES AND PLAY SCOTLAND THE BRAVE!) ofc Scotland.

[@ExeErdna]

You mean like how the Primaris were supposed to be ALL made without nobody noticing to refit ALL known legions even those semi-renagade ones nobody heard from for a long time. Also "fixing" genetic issues for some legions as well. Pretty much asspull for the faction that really didn't need much help.

[@cavalryscout9519]

Good video; I think it was mostly about encouraging people to play Inner Sphere. As they were originally introduced, the Clans made a great "NPC" faction, and their practice of bidding down their forces and adhering to a rigid and somewhat nonsensical code of honor allowed them to be a powerful NPC enemy which could be defeated by skilled play. If you are playing Clan properly, you can't retreat, move behind cover, use aerospace, use dropships offensively, use artillery, try to move out of enemy firing arcs, not shoot if you are able to, focus fire on a single enemy, etc. It's all stuff that loses battles, and no one actually played Clan that way (outside of NPCs in role-play campaigns). What happened instead was that overnight everyone was playing Clans, and playing them as if they were Inner Sphere mercenaries. The thing is that all of the 3025 mechs are a bit flawed, with even mechs which everyone agrees are good having some elements that don't quite work (like the LRM-5 on the Grasshopper). The 3050 upgrades are similar, and most don't make the best use of all the new technology, with many not even having double heatsinks. When every mech was that way, it let players customize a bit to find things that worked better for them, but as compared to Omnimechs, all of the Inner Sphere mechs were so far behind that players just dropped the faction. If the Clans are not limited by role-playing concerns, then Inner Sphere mechs need to be built very specifically to counter them, and none of the 3025 or 3050 mechs were. Players weren't even sticking with the IS long enough to work out how to improve the flawed designs, and the reaction most players had to things like IS ER weapons was "why would I ever use that". The weird thing is that I never really got into anything past 3055, just because I really didn't like where the updates were going. I didn't like the idea of each update making the last obsolete. As long as it's a role-playing campaign, the Clan and Inner Sphere are pretty balanced, IMO. It's just that nobody in random groups at the game store on Saturday afternoon was role-playing. I honestly think that just retconning them into Star League was a way to explain how they could be available in large quantities soon enough. I don't remember anyone actually playing Star League campaigns back then - the period mostly served as an explanation for LosTech appearing in the Succession Wars.

[@JosephKano]

The clans ruined the ability to play IS. I only ever played IS. I hated the clans. The only way to beat them was to deluge them in an unending wave of metal, mechs vehicles and infantry. You couldn't fight them in their way. And as soon as you combined fire which you had to do the other player throws away all restraint and just wipes you out. Game over dude game over. No. I hated the clans.

[@JosephKano]

Also... You are me. 3055 was prob the last I played, I followed for a little bit more but frankly couldn't stomach it after that.

[@riptors9777]

Well to be fair.. making the last iteration of a combat vehicle obsolete by introducing a new one is kinda how it works though. No one would drive around in a sherman or panzer 4 if they can have an abrahams or a modern day leo. Though especially with how the setting of Battletech worked it was even more extreme. With the discovery of the helm memory core suddenly the entire IS had access to technology again that was lost for hundrets of years. Overnight you basically had cavemen banging rocks together suddenly elevated to gunpowder.. so ofcourse rocks kinda went out of fashion. The clans where a huge mistake, not in their story, culture or how they fit into the lore... but by their tabletop rules. By making EVERYTHING about their military strength not only better... but overwhelmingly so.. i really would like to know what went on in the Game designers heads when they looked at the clans and their rules and went "yep... that is fine.. i see absolutely no problem here" XD So they came up with the never before heard of, super advanced SLDF mechs... and just threw them into the lore without a care. To bad though.. cause those designs are not only rules optimal for the most part, but also aesthetically very pleasing (love me some nightstar)

[@JosephKano]

@@riptors9777 yeh it is however that's not how you do a balanced table top game. The clans weren't balanced. The merest hand wave at balance was the whole batch all idea and the rules of engagement however if the IS player broke any of those rules which absolutely did nothing to assist them anyway unless they broke them the Clan players would then also just ignore them and slaughter everything. It was ridiculously unbalanced. The guys I usually played with were clanners and I was IS. I not only couldn't win, I couldn't even come close to competing. You can't 1 on 1 an atlas versus a dire wolf unless somehow magically the first exchange of fire is at less than nine hexes and you 20 them right in the head. You can only win with a head shot every fight immediately. While they can just terminate you usually in 1 or 2 turns and if they had the battle computer and pulse lasers game over man game over. Even in the lore, novels, short stories etc every single win the IS had was a complete and utter bollocks move of some kind.

[@riptors9777]

@@JosephKano I was refering more to the fact that OP lamented teh fact that the new books made the old stuff obsolete rather then anything about the clans being balanced.. wich yeah.. they absolutely werent in any way or form.. no argument to the contrary there. But since Battletech was a living breathing universe with an evolving timeline that wasnt stuck in some vague time limbo like lets say Warhammer 40k that for allmost all of its runtime has been stuck in place.. with things only recently moving actually forward (due to corporate greed mind you.. not because they want to evolve the IP to tell a good story) ofcourse newer books will to some degree invalidate the older stuff. Or does it? Due to the fact that battletech completly aknowledges the different settings in their timeline, SLDF, succesion wars, Clan invasion, Civil war, jihad etc. the player can freely choose what to play. The old stuff is still valid in its timebracket.. again comparing to warhammer 40k and players have to fear that their current army will become partially if not completly invalid with the next iteration of the game system... or become completly crippled.. or absolutely outperformed by the new shiny army with all the cool OP toys that GW wants to sell (hello there squats! how ya doin?) Anyways... Battletech atleast gives you the option to play your army as it was intended to be at the time of its inception and doesnt just rewrite the rules for the very same model every couple of months/years. Wich is one of the allures of the systems to me. A hunchback will remain a hunchback will remain a hunchback in 3025. Meanwhile my space marine army was just crippled/partially made obsolete because Primaris are so much better... So the criticism that newer battletech books made older stuff obsolete is one i just simply dont see here.. in the lore? Yes absolutely.. thats how it works.. but on the table? Not really.. cause the Developer never took your old toys away and told you that they arent rules conform anymore.. nor are they forcing you to play by the new rules cause the old ones arent supported anymore

[@Wingchunmandan]

This video is great for explaining why so many ubiquitous mech designs from the classic era became regarded as so "meh" in later eras/sourcebooks/games. I got into battletech by playing MW2 and then MW3, after which I started reading the novels and playing the table top and i couldn't understand why so many popular mechs from the universe seemed so poorly designed compared to what came afterward. Mechs like the Shadow Hawk and Griffen would have never had the popularity that they did if some of the later released designs were present when source lore was originally written, so I do feel that there has to be some selective adoption of tech and rules relating to some of the timeline. When i was younger I just assumed the legal fallout from the "unseen mechs" caused the universe to redact some of those designs while changing the rule sets to largely obsolete many of the 1980's era mechs, but now thinking about it I agree that some of the pre-dating of designs with an eye toward selling updated sourcebooks and other material was probably a large contributor to these revisionist mechs.

[@BigRed40TECH]

Yea, the Unseen played a role in a lot of things, but I don't think it played a role in this. At least not a major one.

[@bluelionsage99]

Yeah, the game designers dug themselves into a whole with the Clan Invasion. The Clan mechs were too much better. So of course better IS mechs had to be introduced. But they didn't want to say that the IS suddenly learned to make stuff better than what the Star League had so they started shoe horning newly designed strong IS mechs (in terms of real time) into the established history by calling them old Star League stuff that we just had not seen in game until the new book came out.

[@eddapultstab2078]

Fasa was forced into a time skip, jumping out 20 years without slowly building up on it through novels or source guide. I still have 1st edition players source books that give hints, or atleast subtle signs, of the clans and comstars ambitions from the start.

[@agentnoppera-bo1399]

A little sad to know my favorite mech, the Nightstar, was more of a revisionist anti clan mech. But at least it feels like a late stage technological push that bearly saw use before everything collapsed.

[@Colonel_Overkill]

It at least is a logical step from the marauder and a plausible development. IMO it is one of the few revisionist mechs that isnt offensive, and that mostly comes down from a decently considered origin. Others are just absurd.

[@eddapultstab2078]

@@Colonel_Overkill it also helps that the dragoons made the marauder 2 from upgrading the chassis. The nightstar has a bit better better backstory, in fact it was in the original 2750 tro, its original art is goofy in comparison, so it's not a retconned design it was mentioned before the clan invasion books came.

[@meerkat1954]

@@eddapultstab2078 Just curious - do you know what page of TRO 2750 the Nightstar is mentioned on?

[@eddapultstab2078]

@@meerkat1954 my brother owns an original book from 30 years ago, it looks goofy to what is now but I'll try to look it up when I have the chance.

[@TheInsomniaddict]

@@eddapultstab2078 I would much like to see this Goofstar.

[@RogueSabre]

This has actually been my very favorite video you have put out. Me (34) and my buddy (48) were just discussing these topics over a couple bourbons and cigars just last night. He got into battletech in the 90s and went to tournaments and stuff in the 2000s. I play casually but devour the lore. I'm always bouncing things off him, asking how things were in the community when different bits of the lore came out. How things were with the unseen, the replacements for them, clan invasion, WOB etc. I find the real life background, scuttlebutt, old rumors and the drama around the advancement of the time line to be absolutely fascinating. He always said the dark age ruined the game for him, how the box sets were sold, and the direction of the lore. I find the later mechs, around when the successor states started designing dozens of mechs seemingly overnight that had basically no heat issues and multitudes of brand new weapons to be the point where the game kinda gets away from my interests.

[@Raist474]

I absolutely love many of the Dark Age designs. Even the Republic of the Sphere is neat in concept. I do however dislike the theme of "3025 2.0" with getting rid of Battlemech numbers, and blatantly copying notable 3025 era characters. It's like they tried to appeal to the 3025 grogs, failed, and even managed to piss fans of all the other eras at once.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

The pillager nightstar epmperor would be more believeable if they war part of a series of mechs. That were not adopted by anyone. That they were way to expensive to buy and operate. That existing mechs filled all of their needs. That they were not needed. Survived only as blue prints in the Helm memory core. That during the clan invasion the inner sphere powers realized that despite their cost. they would be perfect to use against the clans.

[@leecashion]

They were also created by smaller companies that were not able to deliver large amounts or that were destroyed in the first Succession War.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

@@leecashion Revisinism at its best.

[@RandominityFTW]

I disagree on the Nightstar. That was like one of the last, if not the very last, mech built by the Star League. And production ran for I think just a year during the Amaris Coup because Amaris nuked it. It slots in very neatly, because even if it basically invalidates other iconic mechs...that was kinda the point, ya know? And if any survived the war, there sure as hell ain't supposed to be very many of them. Where as the Pillager is pretty much better than the 'iconic' late Star League assault mechs. Which is stupid.

[@brianawilk285]

I got mine for free on one of the last missions of mech 5. Its not bad but I only use it on lighter tonnage missions otherwise im using my atlas. I also like the stalker loaded with SRMs and possible dual PPCs (depending on the variant). I have 2 of them one for me and one for the suck ass ai mercs that always die and lose all the weapons on the mech. I dont know its in the game or not but being able to designate mechs for specific roles like long range support is needed

[@donaldcampbell3043]

If you look at the Roman Legions, they like Mechs in Battletech changed and advanced over time, especially evident if you look at the Armour development

[@leonardoceballos1016]

I like the Nightstar explanation. These 'mechs should have been all inserted similarly, as very (in-universe) late Star League 'mechs that were so limited in their deployment that they simply didn't have time to displace the previous designs that became popular in the Succession Wars era. IMHO that also does a double duty - it romanticizes not what the Star League was, but what it might have been, and what it had the potential to be. These mechs after all still follow the rules; they are just "min-maxed" in a way the others weren't. So as one-offs and late experiments they would make sense, and show that if it wasn't for Amaris the League would have continued to integrate technology and potentially created wondrous designs - presumably in civilian areas as much as in military. They also make fun unicorns as rewards for campaigns and RPG play. Retconning them as being "as old as the Atlas" and have "been there the whole time" is silly, though. I still can't believe any game designer thought playing IS vs Clans "by tonnage" was a good idea.

[@BigRed40TECH]

The 90's were a very different world. lol

[@jasonpeacock9735]

As so that played the game from the start, here’s my take on the original TROs Inner Sphere mechs , pre retcons; 3025: Amazing. A mix of super common mechs like the bugs, the Archer, the Marauder. Ton of second line specialist unit like the Firestarter, Ostscout, and Cyclops. Units that’s were pushed into frontline service do to shortages on real frontline units. And then the super oddballs, mech like the Clint and the quads things that should have been museum pieces thrust back onto the battlefield. 2750: All in agreement with you. Mechs that had small advantages, but not min maxed killing machines 3050: Most the Inner Sphere mechs are disasters, and that’s great. Like kids playing with new toys, the Houses had no idea what to do with the Lost Tech. If the Clan Invasion hadn’t happened, I could see a lot of the designs being slowly removed from service and reworked as the Houses learned to use the tech. But with the insatiable need for war materials do to the invasion, there was no time to stop the lines to retool. And, we started to see new designs emerge. Technology was advancing. 3055: Not saying they were all great designs, but they were new designs. Instead of simply upgrading Star League designs, the Houses were making there own units. A sign of great things ahead… 3058: Really? There were just dozens of idle Star League factories laying around? All these monstrous Star League mechs we had never heard of? Everyone and their mother had design specs from the League just laying around for unproduced wonder weapons? So, we’re back to just aping the Star League? Great…

[@BigRed40TECH]

Yea man, right on the money. I was so confused when I read that TRO as a kid. I was not hyped at all.

[@chagear]

So a head cannon "fix" for the hi-power variants is that they are more 'clan busters', and not past Star League mechs. As a side note, the mechs that were not in the lore at the time of the Star League may have been designed or tested in some capacity, but did not move to development for one reason or another. Just thoughts. Good vid, nice work!

[@BigRed40TECH]

Oh sure. But those weren't the mechs I was referring to. :)

[@Gigas0101]

*head canon A head cannon is when you put an LRM 5 next to the cockpit. Looking at you, Grasshopper...

[@jasoncampbell7337]

Thank you for the info. I originally started with BattleDroids years ago and played until the early 90's. I stopped only because of joining the military, getting married and having children. Now I'm starting to play again and showing my youngest son. I was looking at all the changes and added history and wondering if there was a list of mechs by Era so I could make sure games we play are balanced for the time frame. Then I stumbled onto this post and am thankful to know that I need to watch out for inserted mechs into the lore. I don't know if you had made a list like I was looking for. It would be helpful as I get back into the game. Cheers!

[@jamesperkins191]

They're not really that problematic Star League 'Ace Prototypes', very costly, single build site, so built in limited numbers and maybe only a few examples survive into the present hidden in forgotten Brian Caches or Castles Brian. Nearly all the 'cool' SLDF equipment has drawbacks - XL Engines are more fragile, Endosteel, FF Armour and Double Heat Sinks limit your loadout options, UACs can jam, most ER energy weapons make more heat too. But LBx ammo has no drawbacks as far as I can tell

[@kierankowalski2921]

I think that there are a handful of the 3058 mechs that probably do make sense in the setting, and maybe a handful of the "Royal" variants for elite SLDF guard units - and the idea that perhaps some of these were brought back in IS tech versions by the Wolf Dragoons (like the annihilator and mongoose) but I have to agree a lot of them do seem like knee-jerk reaction additions. As much as I love the Nighstar.... it is a bit of an oddity.

[@Moondog66602]

I appreciate the effort put in to explaining the history of battletech as a game and setting. My introduction to battletech was MechWarrior 2, but it pretty much ended there, until years later when I rediscovered it, and subsequently discovered for the first time the wider setting, games and materials, so I was unaware of alot of this stuff along the way.

[@JustProto00]

Did you know R2 D2 had rockets in his legs the whole time?

[@Arasaka]

Started in ‘86 and only moved past 3025 in the novels and video games. 3025 is peak BT imo but the beauty of BT is the various time areas to suit different player tastes.

[@NishidateKitsune]

No Big Red, in fact, as an old player (outside the USA as well) who started Battletech back in 1985 (Yes, it was readily available to my friends and I locally even back then), I fully agree with your arguments. And yes, I also agree with the fact that the b variants (the Royal 'Mechs) of the Star League-era 'Mechs makes more sense if they were designed to counter the Clans instead.

[@ChaosTicket]

An unusual thing was that several designs were made during the Amaris Civil War. Somehow Aleksandr Kerensky commissioned companies to new designs like the Nightstar, Thunder Hawk, and Vulcan. How he did that when the Star League Defense Force had no income and in such a short time span is a a funny plot hole. TRO 3055, 3058, and 3063 have "new" designs from the old Star League. Make no mistake I love the Devastator, Gunslinger, Pillager and Thunder Hawk as being very different from 3025 designs in physical appearance, for being purpose-built to carry around Lostech like Double Heat Sinks and Gauss Rifles, and for being something that could plausibly fight the new Clans. Its very much my personal opinion, but the most important thing for me in Battletech is the Customization system. While having 100+ designs is interesting, upgrading old units is what keeps things interesting. An Atlas AS7-D is classic but I would drop the AC-20 for 2 Large Lasers or an LRM-20. Well that would make it a 100ton Stalker or Longbow. So? Originally the Atlas was the only 100ton Assault Battlemech I knew of. It was the "Final Assault Mech", so all the branches of Awesome, Longbow, Battlemaster, Highlander, Banshee, etc. Those are generally specialized units. The idea of Omnimechs are basically what I would imagine, just canonized. ======================================= Its actually very much like how Games-Workshop keeps making new "extinct" designs. I remember the Leman Russ tank originally had 2 variants, the Battle Tank for general combat and Demolisher for urban combat. The Leman Russ Vanquisher tank hunter from 3rd edition Warhammer 40k was a design that could no longer be manufactured so you could have 0-1 per army. But look at how many variants of the Leman Russ there are available and even common. Every Imperial Vehicles has numerous variants that were once considered rare or even one-offs. So the Adeptus Mechanicus apparently is checking their libraries and sharing files.

[@jamesricker3997]

The SLDF mech procurement process was inefficient and corrupt When you look at that aspect of better mech without the proper corporate pedigree not getting fully adopted makes sense

[@BigRed40TECH]

Corruption might explain a lot of the traditional mechs from 3025 and 2750, but it just frankly doesn't cover how outlandishly far gone the 3058+ Star League mechs were.

[@Unicorn_Company]

I think you make a lot of good points. The Royals though, I think they have their place as many of them aren't incredibly different, and usually make some very thoughtful upgrades, like the King Crab, Marauder, and Warhammer royal versions. Also, it helps give the royal units an almost clan like feel in their era, as they have gear that is a step above the line SLDF unit.

[@tripwire31]

What's interesting is what they do for the Rim Worlds mechs, from what I understand they are pretty balanced...compared to the newer Star League mechs I guess. I will say the Inner Sphere variant of the Crossbow and many of the mechs added to the Age of War before the Star League came out are all great additions to the small point in time. Also I still like the Atlas II being around during the Star League era...though it's a very VERY bitter pill to swallow that only the Jade Falcon Clan have a single Atlas II until the Word of Blake forced Hesperus II to crank out more, so I can run a full lance in the ""Blakist era"" so it's definitely a mixed bag of opinions, for me anyway

[@Ferox2121]

Great video. And, yes, the 3058 IS assaults were clearly added to the setting as "optimzed" inner sphere anti Clan mechs. Mechs like the Devastator, Nightstar, Pillager od Thunderhawk. All armed with 2 - 3 gauss rifles an a few PPCs or Lasers and enough heat sinks to fire everything off without an afterthought. This was a problem from the start as all of the cool old assault designs ware now totally obsolete. I am a huge fan of the Atlas, but this machine was always undergunned for a 100 ton assault mech and now we had so many "new" mechs that could blow an Atlas out of the water. And then they added them to the setting GW style. Oh, yes, these mechs are all old Star League designs that were all totally lost for 200+ years until now, were everyone can build them with ease.

[@BigRed40TECH]

Being new designs would've been fine. But being SLDF designs? X for doubt.

[@Ferox2121]

Probably. irl: Fasa was a company that needed to earn a profit, so they added more and more new mechs to the setting that they could sell to the people. But in universe it never mede that much sense that after 200 years of stagnation there were suddenly 100 + x new mech designs released within only a few years. (TR 3055, 3058 and 3060, not counting 3067)...

[@arrgylerawrgyle3784]

Thanks for this important information in its own vid. For those looking for a justification, because this is what it is, some head canon of availability is about the best way to make sense of it. Maybe the design existed but the manufacturer sucked at making them is your best outlook.. There is always the cost. As for things like the royal variants. Elite troops are better equipped than the national guard even today. Hell in some cases the basic equipment of the NG is from the 70s and 50 year old equipment and handme downs are what is available. But, the royal variants were not massed produced and often in the hands of those doing the worst fighting. This explains some of the heroic encounters of legends and on how they overcame the odds in some aspects. But they are all very limited and very likely destroyed in mass numbers compared to anything else. Given to only the elite of the elite because of cost and efficiency.

[@BigRed40TECH]

I don't disagree, but cost is supposedly no object to the SLDF. And the Pillager was no elite machine, and would devour even a lot of Royal Assault Mechs.

[@arrgylerawrgyle3784]

@@BigRed40TECH totally understandable, I can't argue that the designs existing cause problems with other designs being made either. Just trying to accept and head canon a simple step to move beyond.

[@jamesperkins191]

@@BigRed40TECH SUPPOSEDLY. But the Terran Hegemony was a House Of Cards and couldn't last.

[@nathanialbenton7385]

Rather than being to boost sales by being applicable to basically every time period, it may have been for the sake of attempting to fix the Clan Invasion "format" by giving appropriate tools alongside trying to "densely" fill out roles without having stopped to think about over-concentrating value. In other words, they saw there was good space for X and Y while the Clan Invasion needed Z, and the design process ended up cramming all of that into a single design WILDLY out of line with precedent.

[@nurgle333]

[@bruced648]

our group has the opinion that TRO's 2750, 3025, 3026, 3050 (and recently 3039) represent the designs that were produced in the millions if not 10s of millions. all other TRO's including 3055, 3058, 3060 and others, represent designs that had productions between 10,000 and 100,000. much of the lore supports this idea. at the start of the Amaris coup, SLDF had 486 Divisions, by its end, had 113 Divisions. at the exodus, Kerenski took 100 Divisions. most of the remaining 13 Divisions were used to form the military of Comstar (Mechwarrior 2nd ed 1641). by 3050, Comstar had more than 50 Divisions (Comstar sourcebook 1655). even house Marik had approx 100 Divisions in 3025 (house Marik source book 1622). while the early TRO's include the early concept of battletech, by having the game's entry point being the 3rd succession war, most of the specialized, prototype and limited production mechs/vehicles were held back from front line action. when the 4th succession war kicked off, it was a big deal! it showed just how many military units existed and how vast of a region could be impacted. yes, things bogged down quickly, which was in part, due to the meddling of the Comstar interdiction. but then, 3050 hits. again, the upheaval and turmoil only 10 years after the 4th succession war and the scramble to understand the information from the Helm memory core, left the innersphere in a very chaotic state. with the clan invasion, everything within the innersphere paused to understand the new threat. from a player and enthusiasts view, these events happened very quickly. within 10 years of the games existence (1984-1994), the universe was defined. a history and event timeline established. and significant events introduced to continue to push the story forward. maybe it was done too quickly. but having been there from the beginning to present day, it's been fantastic. nothing felt rushed or out of place. the clicks version was a bit odd. but the storyline has adjusted. CGLs continuation thru jihad, republic of the sphere and now into the ilclan, shows there is plenty to look forward to.

[@verrezen]

Yeah, I started playing BT in 1987 and saw the progression. I bought the books but never bought into anything after the clans. The clan invasion was ok because it had a built in story plot to level the playing field. Yes, the clan mechs and mechwarriors were way better but the bidding culture within the clans (silly at it may be)made it plausible that, sometimes, they got their tails handed to them. After that the story made no longer any sense to me so I stopped following it. And you are right, it was all about the money. FASA had to contend with expensive lawsuits, ill fated expensive attempts to diversify (notably the VR BT centers) and the pressure of more and more competition. You saw it in their novels too. Some strong core ones and then chaff around the edges. A frantic effort to stave off the inevitable.

[@BigRed40TECH]

Fun note, FASA never actually went bankrupt XD

[@fix0the0spade]

I always thought a better solution for the Retcon Mechs would be for them to be things Comstar developed in secret to extend their technological advantage. Comstar loves it's secrets, it stretches the lore less to say they had quietly developed a better Warhammer (Thug) and a better Marauder (Nightstar) then jealously guarded the existence of these ultra high tech, low volume production Super Mechs. Tukayid forced them to reveal the various design's existence, but only once it became apparent that The Clans were not going to be driven back did Comstar start carefully allowing the designs to proliferate. The idea of the SLDF just having all these superweapons sitting around was always kind of silly. . But, I actually like the Atlas II and the Royal variant mechs. Just like the best in the USAF get F-22s and the SAS get to procure their own rifles, it makes sense that Hegemony's elite home regiments got mechs that were a bit special.

[@diggman88]

Yes and have Comstar name them clanbusters as a rebranding to try and hide the fact they were intended for use against the great houses.

[@Ruggedtoaster]

The thug was my favorite besides the black knight for heavyweight star league revisionism. Besides blowout ammo racks in the form of case and double heatsinks it doesn’t really have any mind breaking technological advantage, and fits in as a better version of the Warhammer in it’s high tech state. It’s better technology, but it’s still on a gradient where it doesn’t completely over write the value of the previous thing well clearly still fitting into the same niche.

[@lexmats8527]

First: As someone who's relatively new to Battletech (only this year in fact), I am proud to say that this channel was the one that got me into the lore. I thank thee for your positive influence my good sir. Second: Viewed from the lens of a newcomer and a lore addict myself, I tend to gravitate not to the clan mechs or to the late star league mechs, but to the classics like my personal favorite the King Crab. I'm not sure how to explain this, but when reading through the lore of the late star league era, they stink of what I can only describe as a Mary Sue levels of plot armor. This is also why I tend to dislike the clan mechs and the clans in general as well, though to a lesser extent. I dont play the table top, mostly because table top gaming in general is almost nonexistent in my country, so I have no idea what the gameplay implications are when these late star league mechs were added. What I can say from a lore lover stand point is that they simply feel off

[@aquarius5719]

Don't you have Amazon delivery?

[@lexmats8527]

@@aquarius5719 nope.

[@135forte]

Look into MegaMek. Not quite the same as the tabletop, but a lot more accessible.

[@tehpw7574]

You know, in a game history, that claims of over 100,000 Archers built (and 5k of Banshees and a mere 300 Clints [which i think believe was a typo of what should have been 3000]) so who is claiming that there was 1000s of Pillagers? It could very easily be than the 'mechs that you suggest break the Star League setting could have been rather rare or simply difficult to mass produce, making them not as common (and more desirable as result)? regardless of the RL reasons that those 'mechs were put into the game ($$$) I still look at 'mechs (and their intro times) as more like Car Model spam than anything else... (But you got a point...)

[@TXToastermassacre]

I agree with you in all of this except the Nightstar. Admittedly, I have a soft spot for the mech. I think it's introduction as a highly advanced, but limited production mech fits with the story well.

[@kyhubes]

Yeah, I definitely agree. As someone who enjoyed the video games as a kid in the 90s, but didn't get into the lore side until just recently, it definitely felt like there was a "past-future" arms race. Without knowing any different, I had already pegged it as retconning to bring factions into a more competitive footing. Good perspective, sir. Can't wait for the next video!

[@frankb3347]

Agreed. Prior to the Clan Invasion era the Atlas and King Crab are supposed to be the ultimate fighting machines. No other Star League Mech should come close to those two. Let alone surpass them.

[@nodwick4231]

The problem is that the Atlas and King Crab are really badly designed, by mixing lots of weaponry of various ranges together. The lore just doesn't reflect this. It would have been a much better idea to make sure the tanks that are called the ultimate fighting machines actually are ultimate fighting vehicles. The same flawed design ideas were used in tanks (T-35 or M2A2, for example) and warships (some ships had cannons of 6 different calibers!) in history until people found out it was a bad idea.

[@thorveim1174]

@@nodwick4231 the issue with the King Crab isnt really the weapon mix, its more how ammo-dependant it is, meaning its unfit for operations without solid logistics. Other than thats its still a more specialized mech with a few support weapons that can be afforded due to being a 100 ton mech than a do-it-all. I mean, IRL tanks tend to have machineguns too on top of their guns, sometimes sparing some weight for a secondary weapon that covers a weakness of the vehicle is a good idea. Also I dont see the weapon mix as as much of an issue: it allows these slow mechs to stil be able to contribute to the fight even if they arent able to dictate range themselves, while still being close range terrors for when they manage to catch something.

[@nodwick4231]

@@thorveim1174 You're right, a typical tank usually has a machine gun, but these often have the same range as their main gun. Most battlemechs are akin to someone going "Well, that tank isn't really good beyond the range of its gun, let's add an artillery gun on top. And a flamethrower, while we're at it. Plus another light autocannon for shorter range, maybe.". There are good reasons why we have tanks, self-propelled artillery and IFVs as separate vehicles. The King Crab is a better design than the Atlas, but there's still room for improvement.

[@canderoussnurd4265]

You make some fascinating points. I’m by no means an expert on this setting as I only really got into it roughly four years ago, I have to admit upon deeper looks you have a valid point about the late stage inserts. The clans, as written, have a 250ish year head start on the Innersphere. They should be so far advanced that it takes several IS mechs to take just one clan. And as written it makes sense that SLDF mechs would be more advanced than standard mechs but never a match for the clans as the clans started advancing from SLDF level tech onward. Why would a MadCat built in 2900’s be just slightly better than an SLDF Marauder in the setting? By all accounts it should be as one sided a fight as the humans in Independence Day versus the aliens. Hell as written the battle of Tukkyaad was a bloodbath that claimed over 40% of the com guards forces. All of them piloting lost tech. Anastasias Focht even states in one of the books when asked by the primus if Com Star could fight off the clans should they need to and he admitted that their mechs, while more advanced than the IS mechs, were still primitive compared to the clans. So in essence the SLDF mechs should have some lost tech and have better endurance and speed but not equal to the clans and yet a nightstar could almost hold its own against a Mad Cat. A royal Marauder can almost match a clan marauder. So I have to agree with you that this seems a bit odd when the battle of Tukkyaad sets up the Com Gaurds against the clans in a 20/1 fight and barely wins and yet the sources list the mech they piloted as just a hair less advanced. I only ever played one clan mission. Piloting a black knight and supported by a lance of heavy hitters like the Highlander, Awesome and an archer and i had artillery support. I beat a lance of clanner mechs by doing what ComStar did. I set up a kill zone with mines, artillery, VTOLs and aerospace forces and hit them with everything I had for as long as I could and even then I only made it out with the black knight purely from luck. That’s how it’s supposed to be when facing down clan mechs. The commander underbid his forces due to hubris, advanced head on because he believed his mechs speed and durability would hold out against our outdated equipment and he used long range to his advantage to nail as as he approached. That’s how you beat clanners. You use their beliefs against them and fight asymmetrical battles using dirty tricks. If you are taking a clanner head to head in a mech and winner you’re playing it wrong. So yes even a newbie like me can agree with you that some of these designs don’t make sense for the SLDF and don’t add up even in the Amaris civil war setting as the reason for the SLDF winning is because of superior numbers and tactics. As written amaris, using standard mechs of the era should’ve lost in a matter of months not after 14 years of conflict. You’ve given me lots to think about. And definitely have words to describe why the settings past the clan invasion always rubbed me the wrong way. But of course if you see my profile Emp Len you could probably guess that I have a lot more issues with the setting going forward than just the tech changes. Especially after the fed Com civil war setting. Good stuff as always. Keep it up.

[@BigRed40TECH]

There is a lot of fantastic things post 3050, but I think the artificial inserts into the past are one of the worst.

[@KuK137]

Also it begs the question why the clans were upgrading old crap not stuff like Devastators or Nightstars. Timber Wolf should be upgraded variant of these, not glorified Catapult 2.0...

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

Weisman himself admitted that the original designers made a mistake with how they designed Clan tech, which is not hard to see. Lighter AND longer range AND more powerful AND better heat sinks to offset heat cost?? The IRL arms race (partially to boost sales of new rulebooks and minis?) has spilled over from that My personal suggestion if I had a time machine is that the Heavy Laser would be a good way to do an actual trade-off: much more heat (even for DHS, which also needs to be nerfed), harder to hit with but far more damage. This also actually makes sense for the Clans at their core (without introducing too much of that honour nonsense that makes no sense in or out of the lore): as a duelling culture, high damage weapons where the skill required to land a single good hit would make total sense. (as an aside, this also shows how silly the canon clan tech is. duelling culture with all these RoEs yet all their weapons fly and hit far further, instead of the logical AND balanced option would be to make their weapons shorter range)

[@jefaus06]

Seems like a very fair assessment. The Terran Hegemony and the Star League had the monopoly on mech tech. From the perspective of the 2750 TRO, the need to optimize their units just wasn't there. It was a peace dividend - they just didn't perform the war fighting required that would necessitate the parade of Gauss-zillas seen in later TROs. Mech tech came after the Ares Convention. The pace of development was increasing, but there was no urge for total war. The Terran Hegemony and the House Lords were only starting to integrate mechs. The Reunification War did not need these optimized units, neither. The Periphery were having difficulty even fielding Mech Units in significant quantities. We will find that a lot of mech units developed at this time focus on anti-vehicular and anti-infantry roles. The Gunslinger period, also, did not need Gausszillas - they were fighting House variants which were already down-graded, and not optimized. The SL focused on training, instead. Had these units been designed in the lead up to and during the Coup by Amaris, I could buy it. But again, the RWR just didn't have the resources. Mech plants aren't something that Stefan could just "magic" up, and there was already enough manufacturing capacity in the Terran Hegemony for Amaris to use. I'm reminded of the old motto for the New Grounds website, which is apt in explaining things. "The problems of tomorrow, TODAY!". These optimized units are, "The solutions for tomorrow, TODAY!".

[@BigRed40TECH]

Anti-Clan Battlemechs masquerading as Star League mechs.

[@jefaus06]

@@BigRed40TECH They may be tasty, but they shouldn't be slapping a Vintage label on these bottles of Cola.

[@BigRed40TECH]

@@jefaus06 "Brand NEW Classic Cola!" "Is that a new, Classic Cola?" "Sure is!" "As in, you just made it, or a new Formula?" "Definitely!" "... Huh?"

[@thorveim1174]

Amaris DID spur some mech development, as the development of the Matar attests. And he would be the one guy that likely go for minmax akin to "I want my mech with max armor and 2 gauss, make it happen OR ELSE"

[@vulkhanasennet9961]

I introduced my friends to the game through the IL-Clan era specifically to allow them to 1: procure mixed tech and build what their ID dictates, and 2: invest them in the newest stories and factions being shown to hopefully dodge the fan base woes. I was introduced to the game during the Jihad to Dark age era(s) and despite their issues they remain dear to my heart even though people in the fan base are always shitting on them. I didn't want them to have to experience that.

[@BigRed40TECH]

I don't hate the Jihad era, I just think it's narratively terrible and is extremely contrived. It's the same way with the Fedcom civil war. I like Dark Age and Ilclan though.

[@vulkhanasennet9961]

​​@@BigRed40TECH I don't mean to suggest that you did, I hope it didn't come off that way. I was just sharing my experiences. May Blake's Word Bring You Peace ✌️

[@vulkhanasennet9961]

@@BigRed40TECH Can't wait for you to get to the Tiburon btw. My OC'S personal mount is a Custom mixed tech Tiburon named "Tiger Lily" we ride for the Clan Protectorate & Clan Sea Fox.

[@BigRed40TECH]

@@vulkhanasennet9961 Hopefully people vote for it, as far as Dark Age Mechs go. As otherwise it's gonna be... a while.

[@vulkhanasennet9961]

@@BigRed40TECH I will wait forever if necessary.

[@yeungscs]

9:29 that explains the scene in the novel Initiation to War where the guy in the Raven is like "whoa Comstar recently opened their SLDF warehouse and check this thing out it has two Gauss rifles and a bunch of lasers!" it also has SIX TONS of fucking gauss ammo. It can alpha strike every turn without overheating. oh, and fucking battle fists. ComStar sold it to mercenaries probably in exchange for some work against the Clans

[@inquisitorbenediktanders3142]

What I prefer is when houses take and meddle with clan tech and designs to create their own versions. For example, the clans only make *full* omnimechs, which means that every single part must be easily switchable, driving up the cost. How about instead of that, companies within the inner sphere only make certain individual areas, like for example the right torso of the hunchback where the AC20 is stored, into an omnipod, thus allowing mechs similar omni-capabilities without the costs that usual clan omnis have to pay, allowing for a unique spin which the clanners in turn can also reverse engineer.

[@Jennagryphon]

I would have to say, the tech advantage was to some extent deliberate, and was partly based on the whole thing of how the clans where saposed to run battles. AKA, the clans where expected to come out with less mechs in a specific fight. AKA, bring out like 150 tones of makes against 200 tones of IS mechs. Sadly the players generaly ran with there own thing anyways, and allmost none of the players wanted to plan the clans the way they where saposed to. A bad call on Fasa's part there. Nore did Fasa really explain that very clear. Hell, it was more clear in the books about the clan war more than anything else. You can see the intent, what they wanted to do, but they failed in there exicution. The stuff that came out later, was in part an atempt to fix the issues created by how people used the offered tech.

[@edwardbryan9501]

1994 Applause to you for 28yrs of BattleTech. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@zachklopfleisch8501]

I wasn't big on the lore and got 3058 before I got 2750, so what struck me about the designs wasn't the revisionist history but the fact that so many of these were the kind of mechs I would design. I knew I was a munchkin and most of the things I put together never saw the light of day, but all of a sudden here are all these dual Gauss mechs with maxed out armor showing up in print. 3055 was probably the inflection point, but 3058 was clear that FASA had shifted to a new paradigm. I think the fundamental driver, though, is that Battletech became a different game with the Clan invasion. Even with lost tech designs, OG Battletech was a game of attrition: Mechs were a trade off between heat efficiency, firepower, armor and mobility. So your heat-efficient, well armored Grasshopper verses heat inefficient, high alpha, moderately armored Marauder was a 15-20 round chess match. Ubiquitous double heat sinks were the main culprit, but more mass available from XL Engines and Endo Steel IS, really changed the pace of the game. Now you've got a 5ish round zerg between a Timberwolf and a Summoner. The new tech readouts gave us mechs suited to that style of play.

[@thorveim1174]

as a rather new player... man this makes me thankful for the existance of BV to try and balance things out between the OGs of the sphere and clan mechs.

[@malusignatius]

That's a very good take. I admit TRO 3058 is not one I'm hugely familiar with beyond a few specific designs, and I totally see your point about some of the designs in that book effectively overwriting the old 'gods of war' from earlier books. As you said, there's a couple where it makes a degree of sense because they were built in the very last days of the Star League in light of the experiences of the Amaris Coup, but there's as many if not more that should have been introduced as later era designs, or recovered prototypes (instead of established production designs). I admit I'm of two minds over the Royal designs as a concept. On one hand, I can understand the logic of having 'elite' versions of line 'mechs, but as you said, there's also that issue of design redundancy that would not have existed but for designs like the Nightsky, Pillager etc being claimed to be Star League era designs.

[@BigRed40TECH]

The Royal variants exist to justify the existence of the 'bad' versions of the mech at this point. People just want to take Royal or advanced SLDF variants if they're playing Star League era, rather than 3025/2750 mechs, which would have been the actual force.

[@rigulur]

as a newcomer to the series, i had figured that the clans would inevitably lose just by sheer attrition - that the inner sphere would just win because they have more crap to throw at the successors of a dead empire. the fabrication of spontaneously new 'old' super mechs is reminiscent of how I felt when Primaris were forced into the 40k canon

[@ogrehaslayers605]

One of the things that annoyed me was just how many of those mechs that Alexander Kerensky supposedly had a hand in designing. Seems a little sus.

[@goyasolidar]

I raised all these issues with my players back when I was still playing BattleTech in the aughts, as they could not understand why I never ran games featuring the Clans and limited the availability of certain Star League era mechs to specific models. There's enough fun to be had in the game without adding outlandishly OP designs.

[@MrSigmatico]

Sounds like the devs realised they had introduced powercreep and then found they wanted to do something about it.

[@Cbabilon675]

I agree with you 100% especially the Pillager and the thunderhawk. Both of them are definitely Clan Busters that would be something after the memory core was found that would have fit just fine in the error of oh look we got something that'll fight the Clans now. I've been playing like I've said before since I was 12 years old. Give you an idea I graduated high school in 94 so there you go.

[@dustinporter1948]

Some of the designs are interesting but the level of tech in them do really feel out of place in the Star League era but could work if they were done as experimental designs of the said tech that could be refined in later eras of BattleTech

[@BigRed40TECH]

It's just too late to kinda fix, so its likely to stay a blemish on the internal logic of the setting sadly :\

[@NemFX]

What? The Ford ThunderCougarFalconBird was totally a legitimate mech from the Star League. It just LOOKS like it was snuck in later because it has gauss rifles for arms, ac20s for legs, and jump jets made out of MRM30s. Next you'll complain about it's cockpit looking and acting like a Long Tom artillery cannon.

[@noteansylvan6051]

When I found the Nightstar in MechWarrior 5, frankly, I wondered what the hell it was and why it was star league. It doesn't even look star league. It looks more like a clan mech, which I guess makes sense since it was added retroactively to be able to fight clan mechs.

[@Jackelmandingo]

Discrepancies are abound even in 3025. Thunderbolt "In its early years, it was also one of the heaviest assault ´Mechs possible to produce." Introduction 2491. Banshee in same book. Introduction 2445.

[@Gigas0101]

I appreciate the disclaimers you give for the poor sods who can't separate objectivity from subjectivity. I also appreciate the mechwarrior 4 mercs music, that's an absolute blast from the past for me!

[@EnderPryde]

So... I definitely agree with the em-bland-ening of mech designs in TRO3058 - 2-3 Gauss Rifles+Medium Laser spam abound for the 95+ club. But I would argue that the sort of retroactive arms race you describe is a bit older than that book. The two immediate examples coming to mind are the War Dog and the Exterminator being leaps and bounds ahead of their Star League era peers technologically. Both paint the picture of being the bleeding edge - one being a prototype, and the other being a special forces weapon - but both still paint the picture that the SLDFs technology was still beyond what the Helm Core even represented.

[@BigRed40TECH]

The War Dog: www.sarna.net/wiki/War_Dog Is a 3055 Mech btw.

[@EnderPryde]

@@BigRed40TECH yes, it's in the TRO3055, but my point is that said TRO specifies that its design and prototype is from the waning days of the SLDF. Most of the other "oh, this was totally around before the Atlas" was from TRO:3058, but the seeds for the designs lost to time but still wildly advanced were planted in TRO:3055 and 2750 "The War Dog class Battlemech has been almost 300 years in the making. Originally designed for use by the SLDF, the plans and prototype chassis were removed from Terra shortly before the fall of the Star League. Only scant references to the design remained until 3052 when Snord's Irregulars captured a long-lost SLDF basd in the Dark Nebula" As mentioned - it comes off as a bleeding edge design that the Star League cooked up that mixed Gauss Rifles, XL engines, Pulse Lasers, anti Missiles... the whole works, and as a design that even the Helm Memory core didn't have any data on.

[@NightSentinel51]

I like the idea of the clan and for the most part their execution, but there is a clear different in lore style between pre and pos invasion. I got the feeling that the series change from a political fight to big gun win. Best way for me to put it is the early season of GOT and the later season. By trying to simplify things, lot of what I like about the series is lost.

[@jamesperkins191]

I'm pretty sure BattleTech inspired GOT actually

[@TheAchilles26]

​@@jamesperkins191 they both pulled a lot of inspiration from the Hundred Years War and Wars of the Roses.

[@Timberjac]

I totally agree. They should review all mech and put them in their historical context and deploy the different technologies as some of them were created. For example, mech like the Atlas, Nighstar or King Crab, by definition, should be in some way machines that break with some of the above, until reaching the King crab or the Annihilator that are the last monsters created in the war for war (although the Annihilator was not even enough in combat). I think the first mistake is actually made with the Mackie. In other mech we are told that initially they were assault mech but that in the end they ended up as heavy, which would indicate that the mech were gaining weight as they matured and the design margins were broken. And yet, suddenly, we have that the first of all, already reaches 100 tons limits in practically all history, except the Matar (Amaris' folly) to which the clans return to a "standard" weight. And the extravagances of Blake's Word. Perhaps the really correct thing would be to redo the list of mech removing some, and leaving a clear evolution of weights and equipment and armament increasingly advanced or even, creating basic armor that as the years progressed, were giving more protection. For example those before 2500, 12 armor points per ton, those after 2600 14 and once we reach 2700 and 16. Since the standard armor does not require space slots, it would be easy to explain that created one of greater coverage the old mech would be updated to it. They could even overlap with ferrofibrous of previous times that were also gaining more armor capacity than their standard equivalent but with the cost already known on free slots. And releasing the 100 tons for the arrival of the Atlas and King Crab. Perhaps even without passing the 90 before them leaving these and the Nighstar to exceed those limits since these are already in a certain way the pinnacle of their evolution And in the same way part of the armament and equipment "lost" could be put with drops, as time and technology advance. And in this way avoid designs that seem to invalidate supposedly more advanced designs that for something had a special significance in their creation that broke molds. I think that only with the Quirks this is not solved although something helps. Honestly, I think that this absolute revision and "erasure" of some mech, would be appreciated, but I understand that it goes a bit against the spirit of Battletech in which you can practically use any technical manual or rulebook no matter how old it was, almost without problems. But honestly, I would be one of the players who would appreciate bringing some common sense to the incongruities that bringing out technologies and mech over time have created with respect to the rest. In any case, thank you very much for your work and effort in this and the previous videos. :)

[@nerag7459]

Yes its a retcon but really shouldn't there have been amazing star league mechs that no one can make or use anymore in the succession war? Then the Atlas and other mechs become budget succession-war era designs.

[@catboxvideo]

I have been in the setting even l9nger than you mate and i never used ANY if these supposid SL mechs in any gmes set befor rhe date on the tin - 3058 etc. They never jived as production dedigns from the SL era. More one off customs. I mean seruously tge KC and A are the 100 tonners. The highlander is the gauss weilding bug stomper etc. The SL has some advanxed tech, but not on scale with the returning decendents. I mean Clan tech advanxes are not so impressive when the setting suddenly includes a ton of almost clan equivalent designs. SL was more advanced than the houses, but a lot of thier advantage was quality of materials - ESPECIALLY personell. SL units were more cohesive loyal and trained. Think GunSlingers compared to the ronin. Yes SL had some more asvanced weapins but moreover they hadother tech that improved lives - terraforming. Medical, tech etc. But the Pillager being a one off crazy mod of an Atlas, all the bells and whistles the deep pockets can find sure. . Production in star league no chance. When 3058 came out and these designs introduced it was the first time that i did not read and reread all of the histories and backgroundsof the designs. They felt . Cheap.... the earlier readouts i still reread. That one i barely even acknowledge. Call me a grognard, fine i have earned it. I have been playing since the first non Battkedroids set, you know the white book that was so thin but contained everything including the origionals in my book - w, l, s, a, m, w, c, a etc. No star league tech, just deprived citizensof the IS and thier manical leaders Designs need flaws to be realistic, super optimizing history to make truth from fantasy seemed cheap. I mean i can understand one or two experimental or customs resurfacing, or prototype designs on drawing boards on a mem core - fine full production linez, ludicris let the titans of the eras have thier day... the Kc in SL. The TW for the Clans... all eventually get toppled but all deserve respect

[@donneale7555]

Credit where credit is due. This is a well reasoned and explained thesis as to why battletech "sold out", to use the term we said was the problem. The original big stompy robot game was fun and we liked it. The clans came along and we got excited, realized we were never going to win another fight with IS mechs and spent money buying clan ones as well... Then we switched to frankenmeching almost everything and were happy again Then came the "Lawsuit" Suddenly FASA needed money bad and a way to keep going after they realized copyright infringement is bad in business.... So then we got retconpaloosa....and that's when we lost interest and stopped playing Because as you pointed out....we already had to re-up our game twice and then three times in less then 10 years, made it a different game then what we liked in the first place And we obviously wern't alone as the franchise imploded I have tried to reatart an intrest to digest this new stuff....but it doesn't have the flair and is watered down intellectually but with more lights and chrome to hide a lack of character as well I'm glad you still enjoy the setting and hope you keep your passion I am listening for nostalgic stories and I enjoy what you are creating

[@Bustermachine]

On the topic of the 'Roman Empire' and the Star League. The thing that should probably differentiate the succession wars and star league eras shouldn't necessarily by more high technology, but a higher relative consistency of technology and logistically intensive weapons. The Star League era equipment should be, not necessarily be drastically better than the best of the later Inner Sphere tech, even if the inner sphere has to carefully hoard and preserve certain advanced technologies, but the Star League should have been able to more reliably field the top shelf stuff that did exist. And the popular designs should have been weapons that were more suited to large scale, logistically intensive, combined arms doctrine that the successor states couldn't really afford. The Successor States Raided, the Star League INVADED if that makes sense. Edit : i.e. the Star League will come to a fight with an entire regiment of Warhammers, or Marauders, acting as 'main battle mechs' where a successor state is basically just going to scrape together every heavy/assault they can find to form a hodgepodge equivalent formation. That sounds boring from a gameplay perspective, but pretty accurate as lore. Which would also play into the image of the Star League as an impressive military since bringing so many mechs of the same class and same quality armament to the battlefield is a show of economic and military might in its own right.

[@B4umkuchen]

Wait wait wait, I never realize that there where "Pay 2 Win" Mechs in Battletecht. Do tell me more about that, please. Because I would be very interested in this ancient form of of "Pay 2 Win" in Tabletop games, which has to be a difficult conundrum considering the exorbitant prices one has to pay for some Tabletop figures...

[@brooksf-l7619]

Interesting analysis. I didn't even realize that some of these were Star League designs, and most of the rest I had written off as prototypes. I agree that many of them don't fit the "feel" of SL era machines, and would only use them sparsely (in any era). Personally I don't mind the "Royal" variants, though.

[@andrewboyer7544]

The thing that bothers me is what a poor approach to fixing the problem this was. Lore wise the clans were already actually the underdog. Yeah, they had exceptional pilots and excellent mechs but I think this compares well with the Luftwaffe. They had excellent pilots and planes but as the war drug on it became increasingly clear their lack of reserves, raw materials, and limited manpower were dragging them down. The Clans are vastly outnumbered, and have incredibly limited production capability. It really reflects late war Germany against the combined economic power of Stalin and FDR. They only needed to reflect this basic principle through battle value and rules. Making Star League mechs that were clan busters doesn't even rationally make sense when the clans left with all the best Star League stuff and then improved it. Asymmetric systems can be hard to balance but they just went about it the completely wrong way.

[@spectre111]

I think this shows a problem that a lot of game settings have and how its manifested in Battletech; bloat. Remember, Battletech is ultimately and product and for it to survive it has to sell and keep selling so the company has to give players a reason to keep buying more books. TRO's seemed the obvious answer; give players new mech designs to use against each other but eventually you end up with different battlemech chassis that are functionally identical. The Wasp, Stinger, Spider and Valkyrie are almost the same mech but with different weapons. Or what about the Dervish and the Trebuchet or the Thug and the Hatamoto-Chi? It's and issue that Battletech has ran into this video shows at least one aspect of it, they want me to buy a book with a bunch of mechs that are functionally the same to the mechs in the book I bought last year.

[@jtjames79]

Groggard is a badge of honor. 🤙 It's what the most experienced troops in the Napoleonic army were called.

[@BigRed40TECH]

I wear it with pride! lol

[@LupusGr3y]

Groggards is not a thing to be proud of. They are a double edged sword that try to keep things consistent, but also refuse things to progress into modern eras that might revive a franchise. For many years I feared BT would never progress beyond the dark age because of groggards. Thankfully it did.

[@jtjames79]

@@LupusGr3y Yeah we only kept the franchise alive for decades before you came along. How dare us!

[@amw5288]

​@@jtjames79Aaaaand you've proved his point. Grognards are needed but you need to see the stagnation that follows is not good for the game or the setting. Receiving a response that could as well be "Bah Humbug" pushes new players away.

[@treize6832]

The new, more competitive with the Clans versions should have been implemented in a similar way to how they did Project Phoenix, as an Inner Sphere-wide effort to update and improve existing designs to meet the new threat. Hell, even make more than a few of them PROPOSED projects that have yet to come to production and market it as an Intelligence leak or marketing program in universe or something. Honestly would have been more believable than the TROs full of half-assed new designs we got in the 90s to fight the Clans (Rakshasa and Berserker, anyone?) in my humble opinion- all those new shitty Mechs were a large part of the reason I drifted away from BT in the 90s. I felt like it betrayed a lot of the feel and charm of the setting to suddenly have what now seemed like dozens upon dozens of designs with hundreds of variants being mass-produced in what was a generation before (in universe) a backwards and still largely backsliding tech and industrial base. Going from having centuries old hand-me-downs in the 3030s to scores of new designs appearing yearly and rolling off the lines in the thousands 25 years later was idiotic in my opinion.

[@ambientlight3876]

I didn't pay a ton of attention to this problem though I did note it. Like you I found the lore of many of these designs to be conflicting with existing lore. I wondered if there was in fact some errors (deliberate or otherwise) in the lore of these newer mechs. Mechs like the Piliger, Tomahawk, and Nightstar seemed to be far too advanced and powerful for reported introduction. I even thought that these were in fact advanced designs that were too difficult to be produced at the time and were more or less blueprints only.

[@sgage7053]

I have been active with BattleTech, the setting, etc a bit longer than the channel’s creator. He makes very valid points regarding the genesis of some/much of the content from 3058, the retcons required, and the imbalance it caused. CASE is a prime example. For instance, how was the AS7-D Atlas not designed with CASE? However, I would disagree that 3058 is out of place for three reasons that come to mind immediately. Even in earlier backstory, the golden age of the Star League admitted there were haves and have-nots, explaining the existence of some technological disparity. Additionally, much of Star League cutting-edge technology comes with fatal flaws, for instance the side torso criticals of XL fusion engines. ‘Mechs like the Lynx and Lancelot trade cost and survivability for specialization, and still allow the Shadow Hawk, Griffin, or Wolverine their niche. Also, the early sourcebooks paint the Star League’s arms race as self-manufactured, and one they were “winning” by leveraging their industrial might to maintain military advantage. In this manner, the Star League ended up building an SLDF with enormous units capable of projecting military might across thousands of systems, while also creating relatively rare, specialized designs with extremely precise roles. In fact, the limited numbers of Lynxes, Nightstars, etc, guaranteed their extinction as much as anything. In retrospect, the retcon at the time may have been attempting to address the question, how can 12 SL BattleMechs control the Kittery system? Still, this is a good video with very valid critiques!

[@keeshuunedited5678]

I'm learning 3D modeling and animating recently. Designing a custom mech is the first project I'm doing, and I've been trying to understand how mechs are designed. Now I mainly came from BattleTech from Playing Mechwarrior 2, MechWarrior 4, and now MechWarrior 5 + the BattleTech game, so I don't have the vast knowledge of all mechs and stories that the BattleTech has. I've just noticed that there's a lot of differences in mech designs, so it's been hard to know which ones to base designs off of and which ones not to. After all, I don't want to just make a loreless meta mech, especially since everyone has inevitably done so at some point.

[@Sorain1]

A suggestion on that, find a mech that does a specific role well, and go one of a few ways: 1. Try to 'fix' the biggest drawback the mech has in lore and/or mechanics. The compromises you will have to make are likely to mean it doesn't do that role as well as the original mech did, and we see things like that in lore and IRL military procurement all the time. 2. Try to make a 'better' version of the mech for it's specific role and deliberately compromise somewhere to get that 'better', that seems good on paper, but in practice doesn't work out well. Again, we see this in lore and IRL a lot in history. 3. Try to swap primary weapons load outs while still doing the job. In history and the lore a lot of variants of military machines come about because of resource or parts shortages, this simulates that kind of thing nicely. 4. Take approach 2 and simply crank up the expensive parts, with the explanation that this mech design wasn't a success because the original mech was a cheaper option, nearly as good. It's not super original in terms of mechanics and/or lore, but you can still go hog wild with the actual model itself doing any of those without issue. And if your goal is to match the original flavor, all of those work nicely. Heck, go with 'Design student's final project' along with method 4 for example, that'd be memorable. Especially the question of 'how was this recovered/why was this in the Helm core?' can be good fun.

[@jeffersonian000]

My preferred eras are 3025, for the romanticism of feudal techno-barbarism, and the current era, because it’s where the story is at. Was not a fan of the Clans, they were so poorly written and such an “I win” button that it turned me off from playing BT for over a decade. Quite enjoyed Dark Age, and love the new designs and the fact that technology is equalized, just like it was in 3025.

[@TheStraycat74]

6:13 Innersphere Upgrades you say?!? BOY have I got a deal for you!!! :D

[@VulcanXIV]

Me, who plays MWO exclusively on IS and mains a Phoenix Hawk: "Yes, go on. I have heard of these things"

[@ArcaneAzmadi]

Ah, the old reliable method for keeping players of a competitive game engaged and invested: *power creep.* Even better- _retconned_ power creep!

[@robertmurray7279]

This answers many questions I had. I just am getting into the game and was very confused by finding out the Star League can make the Shadowhawk 2Hb but then also Kerensky's Atlas can't get double heat sinks

[@chrisbricky7331]

Great video and thanks for all the hard research. I have been playing this IP since it was Battle Droids and bought my first copy of the game at a convention from Jordan. The retconning and rules creep did very bad things to the IP. I have played all eras of the game and always find myself going back to the 3025 to 3049 era. My feelings is the clan broke the game mechanics for tabletop. Because everyone always wants to play with the biggest baddest and best equipment/armor/mech etc. I call it the Panther/Tiger law. Why would you want a Panzer 3 or Panzer 38 when you can have a Panther/Tiger. Unfortunately, most players after playing with clan never go back to playing with pre 3050 IS. It is a rule. GamesWorkshop has this same issue with Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. They keep rules creeping. I started playing before the novels were written so we focused on campaigns and not one off battles. Where ammo and logistics mattered much more. I think you did a great job covering this issue and look forward to more from you. Thanks again for all the hard work. I have also played just about every Battletech computer game too since the beginning except the AOL thing. :) Sharing this video and your channel to the local tabletop group on Facebook. Chris

[@jonguilt7789]

Ah, power creep, no system escapes it, and yet none of them want to admit to it. To be honest, I actually really like the look of mechs like the Pillager (the old smooth Dr.Eggman robot), and I think they would have been fine to be added in as later tech, maybe the cutting edge of what the great houses had been working on with the helm memory core and four wars worth of combat data.

[@geloramo]

Hey man finally found a great BT channel !!! great video keep up the great job !! Kuddos from Brazil. My view of this is the same, something like lets give starleague mws something to counter the clans cause they are crying too much i love the clans mech design but nothing matchs the badass Atlas mean face !!!!

[@derrikl12]

Now that I know how these battlemechs got "inserted", I feel that I agree with your assessment. But we are stuck with them... for now at least. I'd appreciate if they made them not mechs themselves but research and designs that were not built yet, but were discovered. In a core, or the invasion of the Smoke Jaguar homeworld, they found them there or something like that. Like pre clan, post SLDF era mechs that were designed before the SLDF Civil War in the pentagon worlds.

[@BigRed40TECH]

Oh it's a forever thing. This video isn't a call to change. There will be no change. This video is a disclaimer for variances one might see in future videos compared to older ones.

[@Ti-nf4fq]

I always thought the tech should have been done differently. Like a med laser that had a pulse setting. Or the super coolers on the marauder i.e. the six heat sinks would be double. I believe then as I do now that double heat sinks shouldn't include the ones from the engine as they are the heat that the engine can safely retain not dissipate.

[@liljenborg2517]

I started playing Battletech in the 80s, before the Mechwarrior rulebook even came out. I graduated high school in 87 and spent the next eight years in college and grad school in little places far from any game or book store that sold RPG material. I remember when I ran across a marketing flyer advertising the Clan Invasion with info on the Clan mechs and omnimechs. And my first thought was, "cool! The SLDF finally returns to set things right." We had all made up stories for our characters running around the Deep Periphery and coming across the remnants of the SLDF like it was Shangri La or something. Then you read a little more about the Clans and find out they're eugenics obsessed fascists and were even more dubious "saviors" of humanity than the fake techno-wizards who worshiped Blake and did everything they could for four hundred years to keep humanity in the Dark Ages. My second thought was, "This will totally break the game." The clan's advantages: double heat sinks on everything plus energy weapons that generated less heat, and missile racks that weighed 80% of the inner sphere counterparts, meant you could make a medium mech like a Nova, just bristling with so many medium lasers, it actually has nearly the same damage output as a 100-ton Atlas. So I can understand the sudden need on the part of the developers to make mechs that could stand toe-to-toe with Clan mechs. Of course, by the mid nineties, FASA was having all sorts of trouble with the Gordian Knot that the Battletech IP had become and they were focusing more on Shadow Run and throw-things-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks efforts like Renegade Legion to find something they could replace Battletech with that didn't have copyright lawyers from Harmony Gold and Microsoft and Playmates all wanting a piece of the Battletech pie.

[@paralykeet-]

A very fine point. I have a similar issue with the Dark Age, because the narrative is that the Inner Sphere becomes flooded with qualitatively better weapons systems- and only the Clix game and HBS Battletech thought adjusting the scale neatly was a good idea. It and Alpha Strike are probably the best things about post-revision DA. In reality, it's mostly trash upgrades to components that mythically came out of the past (28th-31st Century), fancy armor on Mechs that don't need it, useless ubiquity of ECM etc. IlEra not simply running on mixed tech ubiquity after the Sham League's narrative involves arming another supermassive military with plenty of corruption, doesn't fix the numbers game's biggest problem. 2 brackets of equipment, (paranthesized) equipment, 2 different scales, instead of alternative models with keywords to describe their function etc. Simplifying components list by making everything identifiable by name- standardizing weights/ranges etc. It makes the weird technological fads mean something more interesting than "Clan-Spec" with odd modules from the 31st century, or some bygone era of weapon design.

[@paralykeet-]

I know the proper word is parenthetical, hella funny though. Makes getting people to read plamo loadouts a pain.

[@michaelkimberling7307]

Unfortunately all sci-fi companies have a board of directors to answer to and never know how to tell them why their idea is a bad one.

[@BigRed40TECH]

FASA was basically run by like, 2 people when this happened. XD

[@mikhielthorsson6033]

If I'm not mistaken it was WizKidz that purchased the rights for BattleTech from FASA. It was shortly there after that I noticed how the table top and the TRO's started to diverge from the lore and what was written in the novels. And in Las Vegas, the few hobby stores that hosted games started to drop their BattleTech day's or night's.

[@BigRed40TECH]

Wizkids was FASA in all but name. It was owned by the same man who owned FASA until he sold it to TOPPS. People try to separate Wizkids and FASA a bit too much, but sincerely, Jordan owned both, and had a guiding hand on both, and both shared a lot of the same staff otherwise too. While they are different, they aren't at the same time.

[@gjackson123456]

Fully agree, and I'm glad you stated it so well. This is something that turned me off Mechwarrior Online. When the Marauder and the Warhammer (legends of the timeframe I enjoy) became jokes on the battlefield, I lost interest. This issue pervades and detracts from what is otherwise a fantastic lore.

[@thestabbybrit4798]

I agree, I much prefer the "conservative" approach to Star League. The SLDF King Crab / Marauder are legendary because of Ferro-Fibrous armour - nothing more is needed. An advanced Mech of the era might have ER Large Lasers or LB-X autocannon to set it apart from the "downgrade" variant and that's it. I prefer this notion of limited advanced tech. While I would absolutely want to field the Royal variants against Clanners, or even in other IS Lances in later eras, the "conservative" SLDF designs appeal to me because you can use them against 3025 formations without them feeling overpowered.

[@jollyjohnthepirate3168]

The neo Medieval setting of Battletech lends itself to a romanticized past. Considering the decline of technology, infrastructure, learning and life spans it seems that the suffering populace would see the past as a dream like utopia. One of the greatest things about the Battletech universe is the way the material was wonderfully over written. Obviously there were a few historians amateur or professional working behind the scenes as the lore was developed. But as time marched on FASA had to have new material to sell. Game companies always run into a wall with game development. After people buy the game they stop giving you their money. So you will always need more material to sell to them. Certain game systems like Vampire the Masquerade and it's sister games had an endless system of rules and expansions that gave them more cash but resulted in a game you could never actually own. There was always some new rules book to purchase. I think you are correct in your criticism of the game developers. Keep up the great work.

[@BigRed40TECH]

FASA's time stewarting the franchise is long over, and though this happened 26ish years ago, it's still worth pointing it out that the legacy of this bad decision will be with us forever more.

[@ero9841]

I undeterstand were your comming from. But I disagree.