Why Can't Trains Go Uphill? | James May's Q&A | Earth Science

James May looks at why trains can't go uphill!
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Taken from James May's Q&A Ep 30
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Welcome to BBC Earth Science! Here we answer all your curious questions about science in the world around you (and further afield too). If there's a question you have that we haven't yet answered let us know in the comments on any of our videos and it could be answered by one of our Earth Science experts.

[@72hrs_vermithor]

Hill: *exists* Thomas had never seen such bullsh*t before

[@thelunaticcultist5157]

Muzzammil Ahmer look out of the train!

[@DeathracerXD]

lol

[@wtf-hc3tp]

*laughs in Gordon’s hill*

[@koolmckool7039]

@Galaxy Purple Indeed. You can actually here one of the crew saying it during an episode.

[@theom1271]

@Galaxy Purple I got that from the show

[@Taikamuna]

*BUT THEY DID IN POLAR EXPRESS*

[@MausOfTheHouse]

STFU that dude tokyo drifted a train on ice

[@dollophead294]

I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING

[@dollophead294]

its a magic train..........

[@cobra.railways9961]

Richard the Wolf Schleich lol 😂

[@redopps7875]

It’s a powerful train

[@jasonmiles2819]

Suddenly Gordon not getting up Gordon’s Hill makes more sense

[@whitewolf8051]

GN or a banker engine to help them up it

[@TCTheDS]

@@whitewolf8051 F for Edward

[@reversehappy9210]

@@TCTheDS F

[@jamesgroccia644]

Driver: Come on, Gordon, you're not even trying!" Gordon: "Hmph, I can't do it. Trucks are troublesome, and hold an engine back. Now if I were pulling __coaches__ , now *that* would be different."

[@alon8163]

@@TCTheDS F

[@WesternOhioInterurbanHistory]

"trains can't go up hills" Funicular, Incline, Cog, and cable cars: *Am I a joke to you ?*

[@smootherthemaskedengine4303]

And the train known as ”big boy”

[@BlackHeart37498]

Ever hear of Saluda Grade and the Madison incline they ran coal drags through those Grades daily in the 1930's

[@BlackHeart37498]

Just goes to show how stupid people are these days

[@railfano172]

Nick Goetsch your the one who spelled heard right

[@BlackHeart37498]

@@railfano172 Thanks for that but in Wisconsin that's how a lot of people talk

[@albingrahn5576]

This guy has clearly never heard of the immense power of The Little Engine That Could.

[@crimsondynamo615]

Ork willpower is strong

[@PondOfGlue]

Unlikely. I think he has I think he has I THINK he has I-

[@buubaku]

It should be illegal to call James may "this guy"

[@xTheUnderscorex]

He never said the engine couldn't, just that there's a reason the story isn't about the little wheel that could

[@Shmuel420]

Thank you

[@johnm2012]

Canal boats are even worse at climbing hills.

[@Sugarsail1]

hence locks

[@johnm2012]

@@Sugarsail1 Yes, when all else failed. Often though, the solution was circuitous routes that follow the natural contours, massive earthworks, tunnels and aqueducts. Apart from being expensive to build and operate, a canal with locks needs a reliable water supply since so much is wasted by the operation of a lock.

[@thisoldchevy2371]

id say

[@ChallengeTheNarrative]

Haha good one

[@DanneyTanner]

Yes.Up a water falls or rapids

[@Guitarfollower22]

*has a huge midterm tomorrow* decides to watch why trains can't go uphill

[@reubensteel6103]

How'd it go man?

[@nuhnaffyarbuziness7598]

he went downhill

[@extremerFatalist]

and I am currently earning for exams next week....damn university :D

[@braydoncollins8421]

Lol same

[@fabiangonzalez6853]

Priority’s on point

[@fenrismeister190]

They managed to do a Q&A with James May and keep it at under an hour? Impressive

[@claytoncampbell3777]

Thomas the tank engine struggled up a hill once. I remember that.

[@johndevjames]

you made me laugh

[@MirekFe]

Thomas the Wank Engine.

[@Bigbob458]

Ahhahah..me too👊

[@PensalemStudios]

look out for the train!

[@cobraaction1365]

I think it was because the fat controller was hitching a ride

[@CWINDOWSsystem32]

But what if the train is made out of an Audi S8 and a few caravans?

[@skipperfromppd2447]

I see what did there.... TOP GEAR

[@nadunwijesinghe965]

Hahaha ask Jeremy about that 😂😂

[@sanmtlyre0225]

CWINDOWSsystem32 chased by a tgv

[@louisnonyourbuissnes5191]

Then call world's strongerst man

[@ninjadin777]

Jeremy will come to win the race

[@bigbizbo4965]

There's something about a British guy talking about trains that makes me feel really nostalgic.

[@khruangbin64]

"miss your dinner" this also

[@nickelassault]

Thomas

[@Bogusgal]

I disagree. This sounds more like a peasant, British, dialect. It is annoying and incorrect.

[@trippparsley9666]

Bogusgal please don’t be that guy

[@daud1543]

They colonised the Globe with their trains!

[@goldprime118]

If a train has trouble going up a hill, just call Edward and he'll give you a push

[@stingky3689]

Hmm so that's why he isn't seen in the show anymore, he's going all around the world pushing other engines upper the hill....

[@yaboilemonboi5223]

@@stingky3689 that’s a better explanation than Mattel gave

[@alon8163]

Edward Bros. Banker Co.

[@okamijubei]

Or why not use the similar mechanisms being use to take the rollercoaster to go upward before going downhill.

[@Sandalphon36]

@@okamijubei Well the Snowdon Mountain Railway uses a system kinda like a rollercoaster! Though instead of having the chain move the train the train uses static teeth to climb.

[@XpoZedBeatz]

I could listen to James May talk about literally anything for hours and it would be interesting.

[@CPD0123a]

TheBounceMaster The Morgan Freeman of Britain.

[@blueneckmedia4590]

CPD0123a iindeed :)

[@thehenchdude11]

TheBounceMaster I can imagine him going Bla Bla Bla every two sentences and nobody would even notice.

[@isaactrockman4417]

TheBounceMaster tell that to Jeremy Clarkson

[@rbagel55]

TheBounceMaster Nothing better than good common knowledge. James does an excellent jpb explaining it.

[@trydodis690]

Who just realised trains can’t go uphill? Now when i think of it, thats why they make holes in mountains to go through...

[@weeziteer]

Trydodis *realized

[@stephenmackenzie6935]

@@weeziteer realised *

[@weeziteer]

Steven Mackenzie You made the same grammatical mistake as him, it’s “realized”

[@stephenmackenzie6935]

@@weeziteer actually I was just trying to make a point. You can spell it either way. Americans tend to go for your spelling while the rest of the English speaking world tend to go for 'realised'. So correcting someone's spelling of the word isn't really necessary.

[@souqmadiq4835]

@@weeziteer its realised unless your an american in which your language is wrong anyway, oh what should we call this season that leaves fall of trees... Ahhhh fall ( facepalm)

[@bohemianh]

In Swiss and German Alps there are trains with gear wheels that lock into the gear teeth on the rails. The Train can climb extreme rises.

[@NotATube]

+bohemianh Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking as well. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_railway I don't know whether there are interoperability issues with trains compatible with such systems on regular tracks. I'd also assume that the Swiss ones going up very steep slopes would be unsuitable for reasons that are obvious if you look at the shape of the train in the photo (i.e. the train itself is slanted to match the slope):- commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VRB_H_1-2_bei_Freibergen.jpg

[@MichaelClark-uw7ex]

+bohemianh Cog railways are really unique and very interesting. Some even have a ratchet system so the train can't roll backwards down the grade if the brakes fail.

[@DADeathinacan]

+NotATube There is also a system with a third rail and an extra set of rubber tired traction wheels called... Something. Ill go look it up. Looks like its the Fell railway system, and most of the time its just used for breaking force. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell_mountain_railway_system

[@caboose.20]

Culdee Fell Railway

[@Paullsthebest]

+bohemianh The train that used to connect Argentina and Chile through La Cordillera de los Andes was just like that, I remember seeing those gear-contacts beside the tracks

[@uFCapacitor]

Also worth mentioning, most locos are equipped with reservoirs of sand that is dispensed to the track in front of the driving wheels to improve traction on steep grades or during wet conditions. On steam locomotives this reservoir was on the top of the train in a dome shaped part, known as the “sand dome.”

[@slimmsherpa9771]

I’m sorry it’s 8 months later but do you know if it turns into glass?

[@ProjecTJAD]

@@slimmsherpa9771 the sand grains wouldn't be under heat for long enough (Or perhaps even hot enough) under the small contact points and the relatively short duration the train travels over them to turn into natural glass. Without a flux the sand would need to reach 3,200F or 1760C to melt.

[@francistarkenton545]

@@slimmsherpa9771 definitely not. In chilly Canada even our light rail transit trains still use sand, (selected for type and grain size), for traction when braking and accelerating. So much so that periodically a vacuum truck comes to pick it up where it deposits in tunnels and switches.

[@slimmsherpa9771]

Damn, that would’ve been cool. Makes sense, they definitely would have thought about that before using sand. Thanks gentlemen.

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

@@francistarkenton545 funny, one is not suposed to sand into switches

[@UnknownPerson-mj2cq]

1:39 James trying to read the script

[@stephenallen1995]

Wouldn't make sense cuz he's not wearing bifocals

[@matthewsquires9438]

I'll never mock Gordon for needing Edward to go up Gordon's hill again.

[@Mars_junior]

James May please never go away

[@jammygiinger625]

noobenstein ...

[@getbaitedmatey9208]

noobenstein he could but it'd take him forever to "go away" get it because he's slow

[@parklife27]

he will go away and he will lost his way

[@lewisboyle5079]

Ha aha that rhymes

[@guidoahsam8043]

unlike theresa may

[@aydankhaliq2967]

Hills: *exist Gordon from Thomas: *sweats nervously

[@silentype3008]

1:39 That strange face James makes while waiting for his cue.

[@warywolfen]

"80 degrees" is NOT "80 %." An 80 % grade is one that rises 80 ft for each 100 ft travelled horizontally. An 80 % grade is about 39 degrees.

[@paulkennedy8701]

+Clyde Wary Yes, mistake #1. Mistake #2: stairs are about 80%, not 80 degrees. Mistake #3: the illustration at that point shows a (roughly) 80-degree slope and labels it 80%. We probably should've stopped watching at that point.

[@landypaule]

+Paul Kennedy I had the same thought and paused the video to look for correcting comments. But nevertheless I watched it full length just becuase of James' really nice shirt!

[@jimlockeyarchive3198]

Same though, I'm sure James May doesn't think that a set of stairs is only 10degrees less steep than a wall

[@jimlockeyarchive3198]

+MIND MILK thought

[@888TopGear888]

+Clyde Wary If you listen carefully, when he says 80 degrees, a text pops up saying that 80 degrees is about 567%, which is correct. The 80% illustration and the commentary are not related.

[@I_can_hear_you_not]

Can jeremy drive a train uphill ?? Next time on top gear *Cancelled*

[@SpurnOfHumanity]

Back with The Grand Tour.

[@_Professor_Oak]

Why don't you watch the grand tour? lOL

[@HRDSalami654]

Answer: No, because he's Jeremy Clarkson and all he'll do is try to use POWER! and SPEED!

[@EnsignLovell]

Jeremy: Speed! Oh no... It is going up slower now! James: Of course it is you pillock.

[@cruiseferry]

IoI

[@navneet2935]

4:13, There's a slight inaccuracy. Tractive force, in fact, will not remain the same. Tractive force depends on friction, which is directly proportional to the gravitational force applied _perpendicular_ to the surface. While the overall force of gravity will remain the same, when the train climbs an incline, the component of gravity perpendicular to the surface will reduce. For a gradient of theta degrees, the force will now be the cosine theta of what it was previously.

[@ZicajosProductions]

good ole normal force

[@kelly2631]

I really don't think that most people would understand the concept of normal force tbh, but yeah, it's proportional to the angle of the incline.

[@Asesna]

@@kelly2631 In this case, the decrease in normal force will not be a factor in this. In fact, the normal force is proportional to the cosine of the angle of the incline. This means for an extreme angle of 5 degrees, the normal force would only decrease by 0.38%

[@johncunningham4820]

Ah . Pedantry abides here . But you're dead right .

[@Bravo-Too-Much]

Okay copy and paster.

[@johnmohanmusic]

At 4:07 the claim is made that on an incline the tractive force remains the same. Actually, it does not. The greater the incline, the less tractive force because the accelerational force of gravity is no longer perpendicular to the track. As an extreme example, at an incline of 90 degrees the tractive force would become zero as the accelerational force of gravity is then moving on a vector that is parallel to the track.

[@edvardstepanyan1164]

Shut up nerd

[@DukeDudeston]

Ok fair point, still proves the point he was trying to make which means it near enough makes no difference anyway.

[@MrWolfSnack]

You find that problem with freshly graduated college students a lot - they try to prove their ego by disproving experts on a national TV science show by talking in a deliberately complicated and elaborate manner or just restating what was already said on the program in a more difficult and "around the barn" way. They find out their diploma is worthless so they have to try and shine their ego to hide their insecurity.

[@craigthelej]

@@edvardstepanyan1164 shut up dumbass

[@edvardstepanyan1164]

@@craigthelej go play fortnite virgin

[@waynemv]

I've heard becoming a locomotive engineer requires lots of training.

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

+Wayne VanWeerthuizen Oh railly?

[@VoidSixx]

+Victor Korgoth I don't think you got the joke. Sorry if you did ^_^

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

AirCommando12 I think he did, as his last word was dis-trac-ted ;) .

[@VoidSixx]

***** Oh yeah...Stupid me xD

[@CNCmachiningisfun]

AirCommando12 Hehehe. It took me a few moments too :) .

[@ikennasmash1030]

"Why can't trains go uphill?" Not with that attitude.

[@williamchapman2371]

not with that "Altitude"

[@JT_8283]

@@williamchapman2371 ha I see what you did there

[@119-i3h]

The Snowden mountain engines and the Cody fell engines can

[@benfennell6842]

Attitude also means heading, so if you train is going slightly up its attitude is raised, and therefore cannot climb a hill with that attitude.

[@nicopavvi8494]

Me, who lives on a mountain town and takes the train every day to the university :"really?"

[@vcguerrilla6438]

that's bulllshit ! I laid a 45 degree track and the whole system runs fine. dont belive me ? join my Minecraft server

[@Omnigeek6]

A couple points of physics not mentioned in the video. A big part of the reason trains aren't good at climbing hills isn't just the traction: it's because, as big as a locomotive is, it's still only a small portion of the weight of the entire train. The vast majority of a train's weight is on the unpowered wheels of the cars, and isn't contributing to its traction at all. Compare this to you: all of your weight is on your feet. All of a 4WD car's weight is on its driven wheels: for a 2WD car this may be more like half of the weight. You may think you're good at climbing hills, but good luck trying to climb an 80% grade while dragging a wagon loaded with half a ton of bricks. And while your car might climb hills nicely on its own, a semi truck or lorry with four fully-loaded trailers (aka a "road train") certainly won't, despite the high grip of the tires. Conversely, a locomotive all by itself probably wouldn't have much trouble with a 2.65% grade.

[@melciveng]

Omnigeek6 Good point well made.

[@heinz8233]

Edit: I was answering to someone who deleted his comment. It would have the same traction because the only weight contributing to the traction of a train is the weight of the locomotive (where the powered wheels are). Traction is very much the same in a locomotive that drags a hundred 50 ton wagons or in that same locomotive with no load. Thats the whole point of Omnigeeks comment. I will add that, contrary to what James says, steel on steel friction coefficient is actually almost as high as that of a car tire on a road

[@Willybaster]

My god finally someone in the comments gets it right.

[@heinz8233]

Jeff T I dont think you get the point. Only two variables affect friction force: friction coefficient, and weight (more accurately, normal force). If the force delivered in order to push the train (the traction force) exceeds the friction force, you slip. The higher the friction, the higher the traction (and the locomotive power) can be. Friction coefficient is actually not that low steel on steel, so thats not the main problem. Problem is, the only normal force that affects friction is that on the powered wheels, that is, the weight of the locomotive. The number of wheels on the locomotive does not have and effect on that at all, assuming all are powered. So, the train has to pull all the wagons only with the traction that itself can create, with its own weight. Not usually a problem in a flat surface, but in a slope normal force sharply decreases and thus traction and maximun power output too. Thats why locomotives need to be heavy. In addition, the added weight force derived from the slope is hard to overcome. So, it all comes down to traction, but the reason traction is low is not only that steel on steel is slippery, but that all of that traction is limited by the locomotives own weight, instead of using the whole trains weight.

[@thestargateking]

Jeff T no amount of traction will make a freight train go uphill, it’s all in the power of the locomotive. Giving the train more traction wont do a damn thing

[@Smudgie]

Does Jeremy know you are out playing on your own?

[@greatsupper]

Clarkson is the only one who doesn't go out playing on his own. May has had a bunch of other shows on BBC and Hammond had Brainiac

[@G96Saber]

Jeremy did some great military documentaries.

[@greatsupper]

G96Saber Oh really, do you know what they're called? I gotta see it

[@G96Saber]

Lucien Lachance Jeremy Clarkson War Stories. I believe they're on KZbin.

[@greatsupper]

G96Saber thanks matey

[@keithpattison6763]

Another problem on steep inclines, is keeping the water level constant, especially going downhill. The crown in the firebox needs to be covered at all times. On some downhill runs, the loco has to go in reverse.

[@phoenixarian8513]

Going reverse would severely damage the tracks. But you are very right. If you melted your boiler then it's SHTF.

[@TangoMike88]

This guy has a voice like christmas pudding!

[@greatsupper]

he drives like his tires are stuck in christmas pudding

[@jorgeferreira2009]

Lucien Lachance ... and yet I bet that he can beat you (or me) in a race ... nothing is what it seems ;)

[@greatsupper]

jorgeferreira2009 obviously he could. i was just telling a joke playing on the fact that he's known as Captain Slow

[@geoffreyherrick9900]

Tommy McCusker sweet and sticky?

[@markplott4820]

this CONKER is Christmas Pudding.

[@cauektulu]

James May: *Sees train at the bottom of a hill * "Does that mean he's not coming on, then?"

[@TheOlav0509]

At least you tried to be funny

[@glennquagmire1805]

Hats off to you pal You utter legend

[@dimitrijenovakovic7942]

Hill:exists Thomas the tank engine:you dare opose me mortal

[@saddletankfan7340]

Lmao

[@MBTAMoreRailfan]

Actually, they can. It just can’t be more than a 4 or 5% grade or it becomes a issue. For example, Norfolk Southern climbs several tall mountains in Altoona, PA.

[@danlewis1871]

What about the Little Engine Who Could?

[@gammondog]

Well! He grew up and now he can't no more.

[@jockellis]

It was made of paper or celluloid and imagination. The latter can scale anything.

[@lukebable]

Really? I've tried , but the latter couldn't scale my fish.

[@lindawesley6588]

Yes he did x 3

[@dubsy1026]

Dan Lewis are you sure you don't mean the little blue embarrassment?

[@justgame5508]

The “tractive” force actually slightly decreases as the train travels up a gradient, it doesn’t remain constant as the video suggested this is because now a component of the trains weight is acting horizontally and thus not proving a downward force into the tracks. It’s only a small fraction however due to the fact the slopes the trains travel up are extremely shallow.

[@kj_H65f]

Wouldn't it remain the same if the slope is constant? The horizontal force vector wouldn't be changing, would it?

[@24pavlo]

The "tractive" force would be 99.96% on a 2.65 % slope compared to an even surface.

[@jon_23546]

@@kj_H65f It remains the same for all points along the (constant) gradient, but it is slightly less than on a horizontal track, yeah.

[@jellybeans6533]

It's James May, so what do you expect. He also suggested that stairs are 80% grade. Just be thankful that the bigoted big mouth Jeremy Clarkson isn't with him.

[@mh13mini]

@@24pavlo yeah, technically not the same, but practically speaking, the same

[@MrCharles26]

This makes me appreciate "Gordon's hill" on Thomas the Tank Engine.

[@angeldawnmorningstar]

Ha Ha 🤣😂

[@lafox2833]

Yep

[@Tyhammonds06]

That's the reason I clicked the video.

[@mikrieltje]

James may acctually watched ttte when he was a kid

[@spacemanjoe7074]

Here in the Appalachians we have a few lines with over 10%, and freight gradients are also 3-5% generally. It just proves the technological marvels that are modern trains.

[@Brandon-uy1uv]

They probably don't have too heavy of a load compared to the USA or Mexico freight trains that have 120 to 180 wagons and at least half are double stacked. The greater the load, the more torque is required, and to transmit that torque you need more friction.

[@darkwood777]

@@Brandon-uy1uv You never heard of the Appalachian Mountains in the eastern US? Shame on you.

[@residentpotato6023]

You know who’s really into trains? Vice President Harris.

[@unaizilla]

​@@Brandon-uy1uv the Appalachian mountains are literally in the United States, where those mile long trains operate

[@Staples-King]

I was expecting Clarkson to come in the comment section and type "this is the most boring thing on earth after May driving on the track" or something like that

[@Mortablunt]

Or just POOOOOOWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRR!!!!!!!!!

[@claudesmoot1880]

Some trains shoot sand directly in front of the drive wheels to increase traction.

[@TrainsfanAlex6060]

Claude Smoot That's more for snow or ice, or if the wheels are sleeping while pulling heavy load. It wouldn't help much for hills

[@majortom4543]

Alex you dont know shit, i have climbed steep hills with the aid of sand.

[@ThePedro8161]

@@TrainsfanAlex6060 how would that not help for hills? Sanding is a method to gain traction, it doesn't discriminate whether you're on a hill or not...

[@mbr5742]

@@ThePedro8161 The amount of sand is limited. Trains plan to climb hills without sand and only use it when rail conditions are bad or some bleeeeerp railway guy sets signals in a way that forces a Pacific (not the best hillclimber) to stop on a Hill (they used a BR52 as a pusher in the end)

[@ThePedro8161]

@@mbr5742 that is not true, locomotives hold loads of sand and use the sanders often when climbing steep hills.

[@manictiger]

So the easiest solution to going up hill is to add rocket stages to the train. What could possibly go wrong?

[@drearyplane8259]

You just made my day.

[@Genius_at_Work]

+xzx No he watched to much TopGear

[@jonbuggins5575]

SPEED & POWER!

[@smh9902]

Wont work, not nearly enough thrust. Fully loaded Trains can weigh as much as FIVE Navy Destroyers. So, we have the weight of three warships on roller bearings. The rocket wont do crap.

[@ajaxengineco]

Br!an, how hard can it be.

[@MXB2001]

I knew this already from playing Railroad Tycoon in the 90's. I even knew what the max. gradient would be. It's one of the most important factors when laying track. Funny how that "game" taught me about railroad engineering as well as the stock market, etc.

[@phoenixarian8513]

Yeah that game is an excellent teacher. Sometimes I have to use dirty commercial means to crush rival companies...

[@mberry76]

Small mistake in the video: at 4:07 he says the "tractive force remains the same" on the incline. This is not true. It actually becomes less (making it more challenging for trains to climb hills. In physics terms the force of friction is equal to coefficient of friction (steel on steel) multiplied by the Normal (support force). This Normal force become less on an incline.

[@Shakes-Off-Fear]

That explains why trains were always getting stuck on Gordon's Hill!!!

[@joshuaslocombe6087]

come on that's like a 4 degree incline! and yet the banker is either a J70 or a K2 larger seagull.

[@carultch]

+Shane Fell Gordon from Thomas the Tank Engine?

[@anfasharchive3244]

+carultch Yes, they are talking about an Ho scale model of a blue A3 pacific from a childrens show.

[@mbr5742]

@@anfasharchive3244 Pacifics. They Run away from any incline (but FAST). Hills are for 1Eh2' or 1Eh3' engines (2-10-0) like the 40 and 50 series Einheits-Dampflokomotiven

[@tomasr.2945]

This is why mountain rail lines are impressive. Two that come to mind are the Copper Canyon Line in Mexico and the Hakone Tozan Rail in Japan.

[@DanAbraham97]

James: "..if you're a qualified railway engineer." Me: *Smiles happily*

[@souravzzz]

Train wheels can't melt steel beams.

[@doopsjanusz5140]

but the train fuel can

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

No, but they can wear them down - if they spin in once place fast and long enough.

[@markfryer9880]

True. I saw a photo of a section of damaged track in the US where a coal train had come to a halt, but the Distributed Power locomotive either in the middle or on the rear of the train had not received the command to stop and the wheels had ground themselves into the track. There were twelve wheel ruts in the track at two distinct locations corresponding to the two bogies. It was a real mess and that loco would have been pretty stuffed too. I suspect that the train engineer may have lost his job over that one.

[@AnonReaper1]

No one gets it. But its okay I got it lol

[@EPICRANDOMGUY02]

+Jean Paul IX Megatron They think its about trains lol.

[@chrisnguyen1186]

THOMAS AND FRIENDS HAS LIED TO US ALL!!!!!

[@bigmeknurgle]

nuh-uh there was that one time when leaves were on gordons hill and he couldn't make it over and he came to a stop halfway up the hill before rolling downhill and james had to push him from behind so he could actually make it over

[@TheSouthernTerrierA1X0-6-0]

***** umm its actually Gordon who Banks james Up the Hill :/

[@bigmeknurgle]

Gabriel Bewes I saw that episode like 18 years ago :T

[@caboose.20]

How do you think Gordon got stuck on his hill in Edward and Gordon?

[@VPT2]

no....not the ones before season 7 anyways.

[@richardsolomon5375]

The breaks have a much larger advantage over the acceleration when it comes to trains as only a few of the many wheels apply power to accelerate, but all the wheels can apply breaking force.

[@tigerseye73]

Yes, and all the train cars that follow behind supply braking force and rolling friction from their wheel bearings.

[@krakenwoodfloorservicemcma5975]

Brayks

[@MikeV8652]

@@krakenwoodfloorservicemcma5975 Brakes

[@headbusser1337]

@@krakenwoodfloorservicemcma5975 Brakes

[@Bonde7280]

@@krakenwoodfloorservicemcma5975 Brakes

[@Modine.]

What James forgot to mention is trains do have a system that can blow sand on the rails just in front of the wheels helping with the traction problem.

[@scowell]

Tractive force goes down on an incline because the normal force goes down... it doesn't stay the same.

[@nathancolgan4296]

+scowell small angle approximation mate. cos(2.65deg)=.9989

[@scowell]

+Nathan Colgan Right! It doesn't stay the same.

[@Paul.V.24]

+scowell came here to say just that. So the part of the weight that pulls back on the train also doesn't push down on the wheels anymore so you could say the incline is a double edged sword. Oh and another mistake: max speed is when the sum of the air drag and the wheel drag equals the traction force not just the air itself.

[@0dWHOHWb0]

+scowell I'm not sure why he mentions the contact area either, when discussing traction. In most cases, it's not a significant factor, right? It's all about the normal force

[@Paul.V.24]

0dWHOHWb0 I thought so too but apparently the surface does matter: or at least when rubber and asphalt are in use: wider tires, better traction. But I think that's because the rubber kinda adheres to the surface and so you cannot apply the F=u*N formula. So idk how that works in trains but still..

[@Maciliachris]

As a swiss train driver, I applaud to your video, and might show it sometimes to people who think that, well, driving a train is probably as easy as being in a car that doesn't need steering, ey? Actually, the biggest economical advantage of the train which is its small friction is also the greatest nightmare for the railway operators. One day, I was driving downwards well below the maximum authorized speed due to bad weather and rail conditions (leaves in autumn). Suddenly, my personal feeling made me think that the train seemed a bit fast, especially in the turnings. So I reduced the effort of the electrical brake and suddenly the speed indicator goes 20 km/h up! Due to the slippery tracks and braking effort, the wheels were actually turning slower than the real speed of the train would have make them do, thus influencing the speed indicator!

[@phoenixarian8513]

Damn. Seems like an additional satellite positioning system is needed to identify such a case.

[@Maciliachris]

@@phoenixarian8513 Yes that would be one possibility, but for example for the european Train Control System (ETCS) which needs positioning, they decided against it to not be dependent on satellites and their operators (mainly the Americans back then when the system was developped). Some modern trains have a single axle that does only brake in emergency situations but not during standard braking. This way it always turns with the real speed, and it is on it that the velocity is measured. However, this wasn't the case on my older regional train and is still not the case on locomotives for freight trains for example ;-)

[@phoenixarian8513]

@@Maciliachris I am Chinese and they have their own satellite system, so that isn't a problem. (And yes, China does not trust American satellite service either) One axle left unbraked doesn't matter actually, as westinghouse system brakes ALL axles including those on cars. Engine braking is nothing compared to this. As with the positioning systems I heard that HSRs had got these already. Not ordinary engines.

[@jasonmunley4295]

Why does anyone listen to anyone British?

[@CamAteUrKFC]

Wouldn't the wheel slip detector have been going off?

[@MrWhoevr]

James May- Trains can’t go up a steep hill. Cog railway train- Hold my beer.

[@MrWhoevr]

Jealous? lol

[@adamlea6339]

He is clearly talking about standard passenger and freight trains that run on starndard smooth rails, not rack and pinion trains that are specifically designed for going up gradients standard locomotives can't.

[@lksf9820]

I'll save you 5 minutes of waffle, it's because the wheels can't grip on the track.

[@puuxexil]

And thus was invented the Cog Railway.

[@chaomatic5328]

Rail price: *goes through the roof*

[@TIMBOWERMAN]

And the Snowdon Mountain Railway.

[@particleonazock2246]

Cog Champs!

[@MegaBanne]

You can use cogs to power the train up steep hills. That's what trains are doing in the alps.

[@tippy1951]

What about "I think I can, I think I can.." clearly we need more "can do" and less moaning from British trains...

[@fliesinmysoup9152]

Bruh i used that profile pic

[@jonathanoxlade4252]

Too be honest how hard is it to activate a chain lift lol to get the Train up lol no need dig tunnels and make the ground very unstable

[@josephaether377]

@@jonathanoxlade4252 is the chain lift you are talking about what roller coasters use during that initial steep incline of the ride? (i look back at this question and i think to myself..."duh, moron..." but nevertheless, i'll just make sure i understand- and, yeah, why don't they do the chain lift?)

[@TWEAKLET]

@@josephaether377 imagine that chain breaking

[@JasperJanssen]

Better solution there is cog railway. There are even some that engage the cog only where needed. But as for why not: it’s super slow, high maintenance, not particularly efficient or high capacity and did I say super slow? It’s really only an option for passenger railways that are intentionally climbing a mountain. If you’re just passing through a mountain range with freight, the tunnels etc are more efficient.

[@CG-eh6oe]

While this isn't competly wrong, you still missed the most important part: Breaks. A train that goes up a hill needs to come down later on, and preferably with all passengers still alive. Due to how powerful todays engines are, the first engeneering problem us usally how to slow down the train enough when coming down and not the going uphill part. In fact, I know a project that was canceled because while it was possible to get the train up the mountain, there would be no safe way to get it back down.

[@fatmann4206]

You got this big habit of taking something hard to understand and make it easy. Good Job.

[@beanbon7469]

Nah bruh I watched Thomas the tank engine and I know this is clickbait.

[@joshua43214]

A few years ago I was going down a 14% grade in the Rocky Mountains and saw a freight train coming up the same grade on the tracks next to the road. If you get out in that part of the world (and I presume in the Alps), you will see lots of trains going up some pretty steep grades.

[@krakenwoodfloorservicemcma5975]

Continental divide.. I worked in the Montana region. You are correct, they handle very steep grades.

[@sandy_knight]

I used to live in Chamonix Mont Blanc (French Alps) and the main line going through the valley has to climb up a 1 in 11 gradient on part of its route. That's all friction based, using light weight trains, wikipedia "Saint-Gervais-Vallorcine railway" if you're interested. There are much steeper trains in/around the valley but they use rack and pinion.

[@センナ-h4c]

Ah, my first thought is that trains are basically too heavy and it has steel wheels. So, no grip with heavy train and carriages/etc, alongside gravity, will make it struggle to go up vertically at any degrees without it sliding backwards a lot whilst trying to move forwards.

[@Patrick.Weightman]

Trains can't go uphill because James is too busy driving it and getting lost

[@mdgfb05]

good one!

[@Wolfenkuni]

one litle comment: The weight pressing on the tracks is reduced when going uphill/downhill (you can split the weight into the component parallel to the tracks and the one orthogonal to it. When perfect leveled the orthogonal one is 100% but when going up a 30 degree angle it is only 50%

[@BollocksUtwat]

+Christian Kunert Thinking about it in my head wouldn't the force becoming down over an area aft of the contact patch of the wheels on an incline where on level ground its coming down overtop of it?

[@stigsaussiecousin1197]

Jeremy Clarkson “I was going to get James May to explain why this was so but I’m afraid I went into a deep sleep”

[@LoightaFluwid]

Clarkson wouldn't understand why trains can't go uphill. He would just yell, "POWERRRRRRRRRR"

[@joeleboeuf]

This is a very helpful video for those of you who wonder why Gordon keeps getting stuck on his hill. Now, I know some of you would chalk this up as Gordon being lazy. But even times where Gordon actually tries, he still gets stuck. Now, this can depend on how many passengers ride the Express, the number of coaches Gordon pulls on a daily basis and how quickly he travels with the Express. Considering that the Express coaches are based on the BR MK1 passenger coach, a single one of these coaches can seat 48 passengers. And in the series Gordon is typically seen pulling 5 coaches and one brake coach. So with a packed Express, Gordon would be carrying 240 passengers and their luggage, along with the Guard in the brake coach. A single BR coach weighs 27 long tons, or 60,480 lbs in US terms. And considering that there is a total of six coaches in total on the Express, Gordon would have to be pulling a total of 362,880 lbs or 162 long tons. So yeah, it's no surprise Gordon keeps getting stuck on his hill. He'd have to be moving at a fairly decent speed to make it over his own hill. Take Gordon's his brother, the Flying Scotsman, for example. Scotsman can easily reach 100 mph, and considering that Gordon is an A1 Pacific, it's possible that he is capable of reaching the same speeds. However, the Express does have a speed limit as to how fast it can go. So in order to make it over the hill, without a back engine, like Edward, he'd have to maintain a constant rate of speed without stopping, in order to avoid getting stuck. I'd say something around 60 mph, 75 at most. (Hopefully this provides some insight.)

[@phoenixarian8513]

On 2.65% it's 2.65% the gravity of the whole train turns to drag and for a 250 ton train (the loco itself weights 92 tons) it's 66.25 KN of drag. A1 can do 132KN so he should be still able to pull it off although it would be really slow and probably need sand. However if the train is heavier than this it might not be that lucky for Gordon. Imagine 5 Chinese passenger seaters packed with 200 passengers inside each of them?? (Search for Spring Festival Rush if you can't imagine) It would be 66 tons each. Yikes.

[@joeleboeuf]

@@phoenixarian8513 I guess it's a good thing that Gordon's Hill only has a gradient of 1.75%, then.

[@masacardenas]

When I was training to be a conductor in Seattle, I took a coal train over the mountain, to the east. We had just gotten to the top of the mountain, and found ourselves at an absolute signal that was red. The engineer was stopping the train, but it was still rolling about 2 MPH. It was snowy, and icy. I was shitting my pants. It finally came to a stop before we reached the signal.

[@WirelessHotShot]

Last year, I was the conductor on a train (lite power). We were going 60MPH and came up to an absolute signal that protected a diamond was all red around a corner. I freaked out and dumped the train (2 engines) and we went from 60MPH to stopped within 500 feet.

[@mikel9567]

Got to love those Cascade Mtns.

[@masacardenas]

You shouldn't have been going 60 miles an hour if it was red...

[@odinsonn6031]

Really shouldn't be doing 60 on lite power either

[@welshy_fireman8768]

Wirelesshotshot mate, that must have been scary as hell, hope your still a conductor. Stay cool man 😎👍🏻

[@JamieStuff]

Technically, the traction force does reduce as the grade increases. (By the cosine of the angle.) It's small at railroad grades, but still there.

[@mikestucky6381]

As a locomotive Engineer with 25 years experience, I can attest to all of Jame May's talking points. I have run on grades of 3.0 percent and you have to be on your "A Game" for that kind of work. The real issue arises when fuel conservation trumps tractive effort. Fun times.

[@chariotgroupjohn]

GE or EMD?

[@mikestucky6381]

@@chariotgroupjohn Both, in all configurations.

[@ronstanley7850]

Are James and you just saying the rails are slippery?

[@russtorque2993]

Sonny, u now have two point eight decades experience in railway engineering as of 2022.

[@kishascape]

@@russtorque2993 shut up

[@christosvoskresye]

Ah, yes, the area of contact, which is so important in understanding friction. :-P

[@WildNorWester]

"A typical 12 wheeled locomotive" - that would have six driving axles. Going by the graphic that came up, I'm guessing that should have been "A typical 6 wheeled locomotive"?

[@AndreasHejndorf]

If you look at a locomotive like the LNER Class A3, it has a 4-6-2 configuration making it 12-wheeled. I do agree that in this case, the graphic would be misleading though :)

[@denzzlinga]

I think he meant a typical locomotive of today, like a Class 57, 58, 60, 66 or 92 locomotive.

[@hakeemsd70m]

WildNorWester A better way to put that would have been a 6 axle locomotive

[@vermilionrailfan5651]

They literally could have put any engine made after the GP60 for that

[@mbr5742]

In steam engines 12 wheels did not automatically mean 6 driving axels. Ie Pacifics are 2C1 or 4-6-2 in the US but only three axels (The C Part) are powered

[@Aragorn.Strider]

Search for cog railway. Switzerland is full of them. So trains CAN go uphill.

[@TwilightTheShooter]

Years ago before I was in elementary school I got a set of 4 VHS tapes and one of them talked about those, man that's a blast from the past, but they are indeed quite interesting

[@dasy2k1]

Yes, but unfortunately you can't make a train that can both climb steep hills easily and reach high speeds on the flat.... The rack system only works well at low speed (it wears very rapidly at higher speeds) and rack railways usually select very low gear ratios, imagine a car with only 2nd gear, it goes up hills with ease but maxes out at 35mph with the engine redlining...

[@adelarsen9776]

+Daniel Smith The way to solve this is to use the standard wheels and rails and simply attach a steam powered hook and line to the train and pull it up the hill. As in Norway.

[@jonessg3]

+Ade Larsen this is very old. There were many (both partial and full) cable hauled railway systems in Britain on mineral lines (which are often in more demanding terrain). There were some passenger railways designed to have have short sections of cable hauled trains too, but it was realised that, operationally, this was highly inefficient and disruptive for a passenger line. Lines were redesigned to follow longer, less steep routes, and/or using "double heading" and other techniques. There was even something called the atmospheric railway (designed by the great Isambard Kingdom Brunel) which used a pneumatic system using stationery pumping engines but which failed due to technical problems in sealing a slotted tube. It was, however, very effective when it worked. In any event, what you describe is not suited to the efficient operation of high volume passenger lines.

[@karlwheeler9747]

America has on at Pike's Peak that I've ridden on.

[@owenmeschter9888]

For those of you who are confused as to how a locomotive will gain traction in the first place (since like he said steel on steel has little friction), locomtives will use sand to gain a grip on the rails, and as it gains speed, sand is no longer needed. Sand is also used on a locotive's wheels when tackling an incline.

[@markplott4820]

sand is used by TAP Dancers as well.

[@matthewtolltrollsher9635]

This brings me memories of Gordon's hill. That hill in the video makes Gordon's hill look like a nice hill.

[@Epicat999]

4:14 With this blow to The Little Engine That Could, my childhood is officially dead.

[@Madcapredcap]

I think the people that wrote the story knew what they were talking about.The Little Blue Engine is a switcher engine, which has more power and traction than your typical locomotive. That was why it was the only engine that could get over the hill. The unrealistic part of the story is the idea that anyone would be dumb enough to run a train track straight over a hill.

[@nikolausbautista8925]

James May, you completely forgot that us Americans have locomotives that can go uphill (very slowly) with great ease! The Shay, Climax, and Heisler locomotives can conquer grades of up to 9% by way of geared wheels. Some even have two gear transmissions. Even though they're very slow, they still get the job done, especially in logging country, as opposed to rod driven locomotives. The Lickey Incline has had it's fair share, but it's nothing compared to grades like Freighthouse Hill in Tacoma Washington for example (3.5% Grade, and took a rod engine and an GM-EMD F9A to tackle it with a four car excursion train two-and-a-half years ago; that's fire and thunder there!). Good explanation though sir, and now if you'd be so kind to explain why we have no "Flying Boats" of substantial size anymore, or why we are attracted to gaudy cruise ships, over proper ships like ocean liners? Then I'd most definitely be thrilled. Cheers sir, cheers. Complements to your airship video too.

[@KuraIthys]

For that matter, he mentions the Eurostar, which partially runs on the french high speed network. Both TGV's and 3rd generation german ICE trains run on routes with a 4% gradient without any special adaptations at all... And special purpose geared locomotives can go up steeper slopes than cars can handle...

[@stevenmichael2845]

the shay goes up 11% at the top of cass

[@stevenmichael2845]

KuraIthys That is because passenger trains are shorter.

[@KuraIthys]

Steven Michael Well, maybe... Freight trains are in general longer than passenger trains, but even if they are not, they are often heavier regardless. But, the thing all these high speed trains tend to have in common, is well, high speeds. Many of the steepest gradients on high speed routes are momentum gradients, which trains can only actually climb consistently if they're going fast enough to get to the top through momentum alone. The German ICE routes also show the impact of distributed traction. The Cologne-Frankfurt route has 4% gradients. ICE 3 trains can run over it with ease, but ICE 1 & 2 trains are not allowed on the route. Even though they could make it over 4% gradients when at speed, they are not allowed on the route because if they come to a complete stop for some reason, they would at best manage a 3.5% gradient. The ICE 3 has a higher power to weight ratio than the older two versions, but it also distributes that power over the entire length of the train, with every other car being powered, and 50% powered axles overall, compared to just 8 out of 56 axles (~14%) in an ICE 1 being powered, or 4 out of 32 (12.5%) in an ICE 2 set...

[@stevenmichael2845]

Yes, short line railroads especially have to take runs at hills. Inertia = Efficiency. I'm not sure where you live, but in America, most passenger trains have about 10 cars while freight often have over 100. Also, passenger trains use locomotives that are made for acceleration rather than power. Lastly, as you said high speed trains run fast (no kidding!) and bigger speeds mean less traction. Best Regards

[@excaliburjc6846]

This makes the Little Engine that Could even more epic

[@tylergehring7879]

Trains can go uphill, and heavy ones h need might need a banker engine. So YOUR WRONG.

[@inisipisTV]

I guess you didn't listen to what he said.

[@sonnylindfield3771]

Trains are ultra awesome and beautiful things.

[@unlokia]

They are indeed :)

[@sonnylindfield3771]

A streamlined steam engine would easily get up the hill without any problems unlokia

[@jereaujolly4731]

Sonny Lindfield not as good as cars

[@MRoesterreicher1]

no, not at all! friction limits trains: if angle_tohorizontal axis > arctan(friction_coefficient) then they would have no grip anymore. the friction coefficient at steel touching steel is ~0.1 lets assume we can achieve 0.15 with extra sand: alpha_:horizontal = arctan(µ) tan(alpha_horizontal)= hill_gradient = µ *hill gradient* = *k* = *tan (alpha)* = µ ->k= 0.15 = 15% proof: example: train climbing a hill with angle of b; the force on the wheels shall be equal to the max. traction force(->max. friction) Then as mechanical engineering tells us: *a)* Sum(forces in x)= m*a + F_r_friction - mg* sin(b)=ma special case: a=0 -> max angle: ->F_r_friction= mg sin(b) *b)* Sum(forces in y)=0: +F_normal - mgcos(b)=0 F_n=mg cos(b) 1)-> Fr_friction= µ * F_n = µ * mgcos(b) 2) Fr_friction = mg sin(b) Fr_friction=Fr_friction µ mg cos(b)= mgsin(b) µ= tan(b)! if µ>tan(b) -> train can go up steeper than angle of b. if µ train cannot climb the hill with angle of b.

[@GastonBoucher]

Just like Donald Trumps hands then.

[@EleanorPeterson]

I always thought it was unfair that the 'Leaves on the line', and 'The wrong kind of snow' explanations for delayed trains in Britain were mocked by the media. The new snow-clearing machines (imported at great cost, no doubt) were designed for shifting overseas-type snow - the kind of light to medium powder that forms 12' deep drifts in places like Finland and Canada. The lovely, new-fangled snow-blower/scrubber/whatever devices worked brilliantly on that stuff. BUT... In Britain the snow may only be 6" deep, but it's almost never powdery. No, no, no. It's 5" of dense grey sludge with an inch of beautiful crystal clear ice on top of it. Yummy! Trains don't like it. Snow-clearing devices don't like it, even the massive Russian flamethrower-type ones. Ye olde steam locomotives could be modified to chisel it up as they went, but modern units are set up differently and crud on the line is a real problem. So much for progress. Wet leaves on the line are another ridiculous-sounding but genuine disaster because they squish down into a kind of greasy plywood that reduces traction to zero. British 'wrong snow' is a pain to shift. Bear in mind that 'winter' here lasts for 5 hours on a Monday, then reappears two days later for 16 hours, before bright sunshine takes over until teatime, followed by winter 2, where snow falls, freezes, melts by lunchtime, refreezes by teatime, clears completely after a day of blazing hot winter sun/fog/sleet/hail/rain, then gets topped up by snow in time for lunch the next day, which turns to 3" of ice overnight... etc. In Canada you can plan for winter. Properly. It lasts for blooming months. Snow tyres or chains on the car; full-time track-clearing machines for the railways... In Britain it comes and goes totally unpredictably. Can't use snow tyres or chains on the car because the roads change from ugh to aargh overnight. Sometimes winter's quite warm and sunny. For three hours. Everything melts. Yay! Just before a five day ice-storm which brings down all the power lines. Boo. But which then melts overnight. Sometimes. So investing millions of quid in fancy, Arctic-spec snow-clearing gear for the railways is one hell of a gamble. Yes, I know it sounds like a stupid cop-out, but them's the facts. The way you shift so-called snow hereabouts involves 6 guys with pickaxes, shovels, and huge mugs of hot, sweet, milky tea, walking ahead of the train as if it were still 1885. So when the rail official (perhaps foolishly) told the journalist that the trains weren't running because the wrong kind of snow was on the line, he was being absolutely honest, which is never a good idea when dealing with the British media.

[@Chadmiral]

So a train can be halted by a simple pile of leaves? I will harness the power of nature and its leafy friends just to screw over the passagers. *evil laugh* But seriously though,trains and slippery surfaces don't mix.

[@astronomenov99]

Also, in the rare occasion that the UK gets fine powder snow, it gets sucked into the traction motor cooling system and melts right in the heart of the electric motors. Shorting them out.

[@joshuarosen6242]

All of this is true but I am still unimpressed that the country that invented the railways and was the cradle of the industrial world, famed for its industry and ingenuity could not scrape a few wet leaves and a bit of snow off a railway line.

[@joshuarosen6242]

@@Chadmiral Wet leaves can give trains flatties as well. Really they are flat spots rather than flat tyres but it's just like in F1 if a driver skids too much when braking the friction flattens the wheel causing vibrations. The wheels need to be reground when this happens. In F1 at least you can just change the tyre.

[@Chadmiral]

Interesting...

[@HeresaBanana]

Because then they'd technically be roller coasters?

[@HeresaBanana]

@yo wtf put the mask back on thanks

[@andyz4203]

There are 2 types of brakes on modern locomotives, the air brakes and the dynamic brakes. Dynamic brakes in simple turn the traction motors into generators. So the locomotives do most the work air brakes are only used if the train starts going to fast.

[@marcuspacheco3815]

Thank you BBC Earth Lab and very nice James, but one question remains.... Does this effect a magnetic train?

[@philipottey7723]

*The Little Engine That Could wants to: **_Know your location_*

[@Kj16V]

2:25 Spent probably about £200 animating two 50p pieces instead of holding two actual 50p pieces. Makes sense.

[@wupme]

+Kj16V its a 3 Minute job probably costing nothing. They are just pictures placed in the right position. And the decision was probably made after filming.

[@JoeRichardson02]

+Kj16V As someone who regularly composites for video projects, often using motion tracking, I can assure you that any VFX artist, Compositor or even Editor in the professional world could do this in less than 60 seconds, plus, as +djteac mentioned; it was likely (almost definitely something decided after filming)

[@boltar2003]

+Evi1M4chine £200 is £199 more than the two 50ps he'd have needed to do it for real.

[@BlueCosmology]

+boltar2003 It's also £200 more than needed to do it as they did.

[@utterants]

+boltar2003 £200 more - the 50ps would survive to be used again in another project involving the demonstration an area about the size of two 50ps.

[@andrewlowry3907]

I love how theres a geared logging logo in the video...

[@armagonarmagon3980]

The best locomotives for tackling grades are American geared steam locomotives (the Shay, the Heisler and the Climax locomotives). I have heard of a Shay going up a 14% grade before. That's why they were so popular with logging railways. If you haven't heard of aforementioned locomotives, I then suggest you look them up. They're really quite amazing!

[@ajaxengineco]

And those locomotives with rack rails and pinion wheels, they can climb mountains with 2% grades.

[@Panzer-535]

Shays are amazing, i've seen the ones running on Cass Scenic (which has a 11% grade).

[@BrewPub]

To go up steep hills, there are special locomotives with wheel-sets having a gear that engages the gear rack fixed to the sleepers.

[@snwbm]

Cog railway

[@Hunter12396]

so, lets start covering hills in rubber then

[@nintendofanboy45]

Then there is friction which would bur way more fuel :-(

[@nintendofanboy45]

I think it would just be more practical the conventional way. I respect your idea!

[@tommythai1043]

***** Good idea, but the reason that they probably don't/didn't do that is that it's not very feasible as you won't be able to accurately make use of friction when you need to. Your frictional or tractive force (resistive force) actually comes from 2 components - the perpendicular reaction force and the coefficient of friction. Your idea of rubber (material) helps in bolstering the coefficient of friction but the reaction force is slightly harder to get down (especially with retractable ones). Reaction force is basically the weight force or a proportion of it (based on the level of the incline) and as you can imagine it will be very hard to synchronise all these retractable wheels, and it'll also be hard to transfer the full weight of the train onto those wheels. Apologies for all the parentheses lol and also, my explanation is very brief and doesn't cover the mathematical and physical concepts fully - feel free to search them up though! Hope I helped

[@tommythai1043]

***** yah... But I guess they have bigger problems to think about, plus rubber wheels would probably require more maintenance than they can bother to administer, another problem would be to synchronise the speed of the rubber wheels before they touch the tracks? Mere speculation anyhow

[@at90percent]

Tommy Thai Rubber coated track is a better solution than rubber coated wheels because it would only require rubber on the steep grades allowing the train itself to keep its efficiency on the level areas.

[@timhinchcliffe5372]

How come he didn't mention sand boxes? Anyone who played Railroad Tycoon would know about sand.

[@RatelHBadger]

The Rimutaka Incline on Wellington New Zealand operated by steam locomotives for 80 odd years on a line with a gradient of 1 in 15. It's amazing how little the engineering enthusiasts of the world know about the little railway. It used a centre raised rail with horizontal cog-like grip wheels to help the locomotives climb the hill on the return journey. The same centre rails were used for supplemental grip on the descent. Look it up!

[@RatelHBadger]

Here's a video of them in action. There is a full feature length one lurking around somewhere bit I think it keeps getting taken down. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoSmdZmOnqmBf5I

[@RatelHBadger]

This explains how the engineering worked, much better than I could anyway. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYuYaKiiZtuesNk

[@kotsdriv]

Same with Odontotos rack railway in Greece!

[@alfcarjackstheclown7849]

They just need a Jeremy Clarkson and " POOOWWWEERRR"!!

[@Ordoabchao-x9k]

UNLIMITED POWEEEEEEEER

[@jasondavis1453]

If you would like to derail one put Richard Hammond behind the wheel

[@TerminalSports45]

While it is abandoned for now, the steepest standard gauge mainline climb in the U.S. is Saluda Grade, originally owned by the Southern and eventually Norfolk Southern until it was abandoned in 2002 I think. With the worst of it being 4.9% for a hundred yards and the average reaching 4.3%, the gradient was often a railfan favorite. Don't worry about it being turned into a railroad trail (a walking path that travels along ripped up lines), I hear NS has sold the property to a short line railroad who wishes to bring the gradient back to life.

[@drumbum6759]

Where did you hear that NS sold Saluda? Last I heard they still own the right of way with no plans of sell it or reactivating it.

[@barnabywilde3101]

the little engine that said "the hell with it"

[@louistournas120]

What about hover trains like in Back To the Future 3?

[@anfasharchive3244]

+louis tournas Very valid point!

[@louistournas120]

***** "No point in discussing imaginary systems ...." ==No point or are you afraid to discuss it? Perhaps you are trembling in fear. Perhaps you are cold and you need some tea.

[@WhiteKestrell]

+louis tournas Well dunno about magic but, MagLevs are technically hovering. I suppose since incline will shift the train's weight more inline with thrust as elevation increases, yeah it will be affected, but how much I'm not sure. Basically the more it elevates, the more train becomes space shuttle taking-off. You'll need more power.

[@RobRandomVids]

+louis tournas hover trains do exist, it's called maglev

[@TheRealFogger]

louis tournas check out the trains in japan! those are "hover trains" and i could imagine they are able to drive uphill.

[@pineapplefarmer7352]

I guess that's why railway-down-putting people are so fond of making tunnels.

[@phero2]

they don't make enough jumps

[@Petalflipper]

Our train up here pretty much does that. It gradually goes up for a LONG while, then literally hits a point when the highway itself is going way the hell up the pass, the train just goes straight through the mountain.

[@HazmanFTW]

If reading Thomas the Tank Engine books as a kid taught me anything, trains go up hills as long as you think, I think I can.

[@peterf.229]

you are mixing up two different kids train stories. one is The Little Engine that could, and the other is Thomas the Train .

[@hydraxusauth3808]

Us down in nz fixed the problem. They are known as the Fell locomotives and they managed a whopping 6.667% incline known as the Rimutaka Trail.