Be sceptical, but open to change

[@Goodbarsix]

That’s the beauty of my Wahoo KICKR bike. I was short crank length curious, and I could just move my pedals on the crank “claw” to try out 165. I fell in love with the shorter length as it really helped my knees. The negative part of that is the 6 bikes with crank based power meters I now want to change out.

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

this was one thing I was excited to try with the Kickr Bike. And yeah, so true, we all have some form of cycling component tradition "vendor lock-in" going on

[@mikskuratmiks]

I've got a KICKR Bike (Shift) as well and building up the "courage" to try out 165. Part of the reason I haven't is a similar case of my actual bikes having 172.5mm cranks so I don't want to feel like I'd have to switch them out if I end up liking the 165mm much more.

[@MichaelWilliams-iv6dj]

I always thought the Kickr bike was a fantastic idea. Basically and indoor trainer and fit bike in one. I keep looking for used ones on EBay because they are out of my price range

[@brandondavis5655]

So great. I’m a professional bike fitter and so much of my job is experimenting with clients and being open to see what happens!

[@johnkarrasch7758]

Great video Ronan. Your description of your fit progression is a great example of how industry “fit standards” are often way too general to do an individual rider much good… we want our body in a position where it’s easy to pedal even when going hard! I’ve noticed with riders I fit who are way too rotated back on the bike, there is a point of forward position where their body can actually settle on its own into a much more aero position. Keep em up man. 👌

[@neilmckenna236]

Great discussion Ronan. I have been using 172.5 cranks and a Fizik Aliante saddle for at least 25 years. Terrified to change 🤦

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

Measure, make notes, experiment…. You can away go back

[@neilmckenna236]

@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape I really should 👍

[@bsharp771]

Another great video Ronan - for anyone who hasn't listened, Ronan's Performance Process podcast goes into this stuff in a lot of detail. One point I was just thinking about when you talk about resistance to change - I find that my resistance to change comes from the fact that it took me so damn long to find a saddle and position that was finally comfortable, that I am so scared of changing and not being able to get it back again (I know you could take all the measurements etc - but still - the mind doesn't always work rationally!). Also - love that (what looks to be a) 7 Mesh Escape hoodie!

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" does also apply. This video is about our reluctance to fix things that are clearly broke just because some notion of the norm suggests it isn't broke.

[@RM-Nielsen]

Interesting topic for sure! Thanks for elaborating. But more important: I need your hoodie!

[@galenkehler]

One of the key principles that you touch on indirectly is that the bicycle is a combination of variables that all have evolved together. As an example, crank length is affected by gearing, front wheel overlap, chainstay clearance an manufacturing considerations. The optimization of crank length to 170-175 may well have been influenced by what gears were able to be produced, or other factors. If time passes and we forget why our ancestors made those decisions, its good for us to reevaluate the norms we are accustomed to. Handlebar width is a big one, the whole idea of relating to shoulder width, and "opening up the lungs" was completely made up from nothing. The lung thing was just put forward with no evidence by an Italian doctor and has been debunked, but bikes still come with wide bars. Its only when you completely redesign something that you might realize. This happend with the new Ridley Noah Fast 3, where they finally have just one width for every combination, because they finally realized that handlebar width is realted to steering dynamics, not bike fit. This is common knowledge in the automotive world, where a type of car with a type of steering, has 1 size of steering wheel, not multiple for different size people.

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

But also.... if performance is the goal..... be open to trying different steering wheels :)

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

You have me thinking of my main peeve with all this that I only briefly touched on in the video... the ferocity with which some will defend the variables despite said variables having little basis other than simply being a standard manufacturers have adopted, which I believe gets us into a catch 22 situation where manufacturers can't deviate from these norms for fear the market will reject their new offering.... and so the vicious cycle continues

[@adamcooper988]

Nice hoodie, can’t see it on the web store?? Product leak?

[@Escape.Collective]

That's from our friends at 7Mesh. Currently staff only but we can ask about getting them in the store!

[@MichaelWilliams-iv6dj]

Funny how similar our fits are. I have more setback than you but I been riding a nose down split nose saddle for years now and it has been to get the hip rotation. The one thing that hip rotation does is lengthen your torso by flattening your back. I already have a long torso for my height, so I end up riding a 140 stem. Like you I doubted that my fit would be good, so when I was getting a new bike I did a fit with someone who does fits for a number World Tour pros and triathletes. On the Retul bike all my angles fell in the “normal” range and the only changes were a a little higher and more forward seat position. I guess unorthodox can still be good by current standards. I loved the podcast with Rob English because I think he is on to how the standard bike geometry needs to change. The stupidity long stem probably is suboptimal.

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

Sounds great. But yeah… geometry may have to change to better enable these types of positions.

[@andrewbutterly1566]

Just bought shorter cranks and I’ll try saddle out on indoor bike. I do prefer been over the pedal more when racing

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

On the rivet... isn't that what they call it :)

[@witepa]

I’m curious why you use a frame bag rather than a saddle bag! I run one too, I find it much more practical, but often feel like I’m going against the grain.

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

More practical, more capacity, accessible during the ride, but my knees do rub at times so I flip between this and a bar bag. All the frame bags seem to be wider than frames to, if they were a smidge narrower I’d be fully converted

[@irconnick]

escape member here, where do i get one of the hoodies?

[@andarenbici]

2 other areas. Even before disc breaks, people would have been better off with mid reach and wider tires. Also, shorter cage derailleurs with small gear ranges.

[@saracen888]

Great stuff Ronan. Did you go longer out to match the difference in moving the saddle forward? Thanks

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

Absolutely need to but not always possible with integrated setups etc. could be another video in that

[@christopherrichards387]

Interesting, honest video. We don't want to admit we might have been doing things wrong. But it's healthy to question things. My own saddle height has come down quite a bit, which I think may be due to several reasons. How many mm has your saddle height (and fore/aft position) changed, out of interest?

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

It’s difficult to say for sure because - different saddles and over time. But 3cm shorter saddle with the nose 2cm further forward so 5 cm total if we just compare the tip of the nose. I’d need to measure height but it’s at least a cm (part of which comes from the fore/aft)

[@christopherrichards387]

@@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape Wow - that's some difference on the fore/aft

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

@@christopherrichards387 yeah. That’s actual measured but effective is less because of the saddle length difference

[@slantedorbit]

I wonder if changing recruitment of hamstrings and glutes is a factor, like moving your saddle forward without moving your saddle forward

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

That’s where crank length comes in… and perhaps raises a question mark about the shorter crank trend

[@daveallenwex1962]

What brand / model did you change to Ronan … 🤔 ?

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

The saddle on the bike is a Ergon Tri Men Mid, the other one I mention is the Wove Mags, but yeah… the saddles were just to demonstrate a point

[@daveallenwex1962]

@ and they did demonstrate a point I’ve heard before about this. Thank you for sharing.

[@kplarkin]

The saddle on the Factor looks like the ERGON SR Tri Men Front

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

@@kplarkin now you have me doubting myself, but I’m also certain it’s the Mid

[@pedal66]

What is going on with that seat position!?!

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

That’s in the video 😁

[@adamcooper988]

If you drop crank length, don’t you need to raise your saddle which then affects you reach and drop to handlebars?

[@cookxride]

Here's a theory why riders think that 175 to 165 is a huge change. It sounds like a lot. You make a change by 10! That's a lot, right? Well, of course we are talking mm here. I bet if we would state crank length in cm, changing by 1 wouldn't sound as drastic. Or imagine using decimeters. Change your crank length by 0.1 - no biggie, right?!

[@simonsimon8213]

Yes thats for real crazy. 165 is considered very short and 175mm rather long but when you measure 1cm its almost nothing. Even if you argue the difference is 20mm as added from the other crank

[@cookxride]

@simonsimon8213 There is even this effect (whose name I forgot) that in order to see the difference in size between two object, it needs to be more than 10% the size of the first object you look at. So you'd likely not even see which crank is bigger with the bare eye (of course that doesn't apply if you put both objects right next to each other).

[@adamcooper988]

Nice hoodie, can’t see it on the web store?? Product leak?

[@Escape.Collective]

That's from our friends at 7Mesh. Currently staff only but we can ask about getting them in the store!

[@Ronan_Mc_Laughlin_Escape]

Unfortunately not a leak. Just something that was done for staff with 7mesh before the webshop