becoming fools | a visit from some JWs [cc]

An account of a summer of discussions with some Jehovah's Witnesses in my teenage years.
You can support the channel at: / theramintrees
--
opening quote:
The mind should develop a blind spot whenever a dangerous thought
presented itself. Crimestop, they called it in Newspeak.
It includes the power of not grasping analogies,
of failing to perceive logical errors,
of misunderstanding the simplest arguments ....
and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought
which is capable of leading in a heretical direction.
-George Orwell, 1984
--
subtitles
Bulgarian: Djeitko
Dutch: anonymous, but received with thanks!
Slovak: Peter Ščigulinský
--
This was an unlisted easter egg video, accessible through hitting the multicoloured egg that appears onscreen in 'bending truth'. Owing to numerous enquiries, I decided to make it publicly accessible.
--
music © TheraminTrees

[@Utmoon]

I used to do this with a par of nice ladies. They would come, we would talk, they would go away with more questions than answers. The next week, they would come back with some 'answers' that I would dismantle, again sending them away with more questions. I could see a change in them after a while. It was almost as if I became the other side of the coin. They wanted to know my reaction and view on the subjects they are bringing, rather than informing me of how my views were wrong without even knowing what they were. The talks were enjoyable to me, calming in a way, as I have always liked talking about religion to anyone that wants to actually talk. To them, though... I was slowly converting them. One day, I realized they had not come in a few weeks. I sadly thought to myself that their elders had told them to stop coming. I mentioned to my wife that I had not seen them in weeks. She responded... "They came while you were at work a few weeks ago. I told them that you are angry and moody for the next few days after you talk and told them not to come back." This, of course, was completely untrue. The truth of the matter is she is a Catholic, and overheard our conversations. When I was questioning the JW's views, it also, by default, questioned her own. She was OK with me talking to them at first, because they did not have her beliefs. However, as the conversation deepened with them, fundamental and universal religious beliefs and mechanics were under attack. Her beliefs were under attack. It was not me that was getting angry and moody for the next few days, it was her. She had to project those feelings onto me, though, in order for her to wash away any self-doubt. It was then that I realized why religious people say all religious beliefs should be respected. Eventually, while attacking one religion, you will attack the core of all of them. Edit - an update for the people that started showing up 3 years after I made this post. My wife stopped going to church shortly after I made this post, and has not gone a single time in the last two years. I never talked directly to her about religion, as it was not a topic she likes discussing with me. She is still mildly religious, but still never mentions it. To some of you, your hateful responses are sad and pitiful. Get some help.

[@slappy8941]

Utmoon Your wife will cheat on you, divorce you, take everything you have, alienate you from your children, and blame you for it.

[@chikkipop]

Utmoon Compelling story! Thanks for telling it!

[@ambulocetusnatans]

Utmoon, how did things work out? Slappy,, that might be true, but it;s not really nice to say it like that

[@slowfreq]

"It was then that I realized why religious people say all religious beliefs should be respected. Eventually, while attacking one religion, you will attack the core of all of them. " This is so fucking smart, and I'm going to steal it.

[@raydencreed1524]

dawkinsfan41 Whether it’s nice to say it that way or not doesn’t matter in the slightest.

[@Luigicat11]

Funny how they mentioned "Thinking themselves wise, they became fools." Considering her facial expressions, she seems to have thought herself awfully wise...

[@lzeph]

It's a real testament to the uploader's skill that we can read the facial expressions of faceless animated people. Well done, Theramintrees.

[@gabebarnes6814]

I would have responded with "I agree." and see if her face shows the realization of what I mean.

[@marshmelows]

I would have said "I know right?" With an awe-smiling face

[@Reece8u]

Uno reverse card

[@belbel891]

Awe don't sell yourself short Sheila, have a good one now.

[@mamberpishley8298]

I'm a fourth generation jw that woke up under a year ago. Your work, your videos have been life saving. For some reason watching them over and over again gives me peace of mind. Thank you for your videos. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[@TheraminTrees]

Fourth generation. That's some deep planting. I'm glad you were able to make it out. Peace.

[@withlessAsbestos]

It’s disturbing to me that JWs can’t even make a theological argument on their own.

[@LDogSmiles]

@@withlessAsbestosthey claim to think for themselves but they always need their higher ups to tell them how to answer questions in a manner that aligns with the JW beliefs

[@atavy]

Every time i hear the name Watchtower, i think of Saurons Eye in Mordor. Funny and depressingly accurate at the same time.

[@AngelaMerici12]

Hahahaha!! Indeed!! I mean, that's exactly it.

[@30minutesLess]

Jimi Hendrix

[@morpheas768]

Oh yeah, its a very controlling religion, despotic and authoritarian as fuck. JW's turn in even their own family members to the elders, and facing a council hearing, those people can actually be disfellowshipped by the church and their own families will then shun them. The saddest thing of all is, JW followers dont actually realize how much they are oppressed and how much they have to exhibit that persona of a faithful and devout JW, to the point where they have essentially lost themselves and are unable to express their own thoughts and views and think critically and logically. This is why it is actually one of the most oppressive and horrible religions there are. It is a highly authoritarian and oppressive cult, wrapped up in a guise of happiness, kindness and love. Once you are in the religion and figure out how it works, the truth is beyond shocking.

[@Spookspek]

I think of a concentration camp.

[@atavy]

@@Spookspek Come on dude. I like edgy jokes like everyone else, but this is a bit far. Dont get me wrong, i totally support your right to make them, but everything has its place. Now look at what you have done, you made me ramble about a joke. You should be ashamed of yourself ;P PS: Dont shun me for my bad english, i am from Austria and usually speak german^^

[@Zyphon]

2:58 i don't blame them. us penguins stump everyone we encounter

[@Doctor_Straing_Strange]

oh god oh man!

[@-._Radixerus_.-]

Zyphon? what are YOU doing here?!

[@freddy4603]

damn, never thought I'd see a youtuber I know here

[@shadowgodthegamer5738]

@@-._Radixerus_.- ikr

[@ironmilutin]

But what about ostriches? They neither fly nor swim from what I know

[@emalusabeth1422]

Going door to door, I always felt guilty because as I stood there holding my books, the other person would be talking away and would add, “We’re not here to convert anybody” or some variation of that but its not true! That’s exactly what we were there to do. I tried to talk to my sister about this when she invited me to go with her recently but shes so deeply indoctrinated, she couldn’t even understand what was wrong with that because “we’re doing it to save peoples lives”. Im slowly breaking myself away but its hard because you feel like everyone is watching you all the time. I dont have a jw roommate anymore though, which has been such a relief because I dont feel like my every move is being tracked by someone now.

[@royaltea1917]

I would advise you to watch some of Genetically Modified Skeptic, he is an ex-Christian that discusses religious topics, however he does so in a very calm and caring manner. He isn't insulting or condescending, and there are also communities for people who are questioning faith. His series on how he came to leave his overbearing church is very good

[@mattdragon333]

I hope you managed to get away without much problems, i know the jw's will ostracize detractors and cut off family in some cases, hopefully your folks were not as extreme

[@SimoniousB]

You’re okay, be kind to yourself. I found being calm and knowing you don’t have to defend your thoughts is a good start to your path of healing. You’ve got this!

[@JakePrytherch]

I've only been visited by JWs once in my life. I was ten or eleven, and my mum was asleep. They told me about how after the rapture, the lion would lie down with the lamb, and everyone would live forever. I said lions eat lambs. They left.

[@teresadexter9965]

what i love about you guys is your lack of arrogance.....most born againers are aggressive and arrogant....(snd I speak of one myself).....it is so refreshing to hear your calm civility!!! Thank you !!

[@teresadexter9965]

I meant to say "I speak as a born again christian myself" I despise the arrogance of my fellow believers

[@teresadexter9965]

I am deeply ashamed of the way my fellow believers put down non- Christians....often talking down to them .....

[@Akira625]

I guess they think lions would be munching on carrots and lettuce after the rapture, which would be strange given the fact that they, and every other species of cat, are obligate carnivores.

[@vanessajackson124]

Jake Prytherch so funny! Haha

[@switchtheflip9422]

This video brings up memories. Oh, how I hated knocking on doors. I look back and feel guilt for the people I helped recruit and shame for taking so long to realize that I was raised in an atrocious lie.

[@Waltham1892]

I can forgive you for recruiting people into a fringe religious belief, but did you have to knock at 8:00AM on a Saturday?

[@switchtheflip9422]

@@Waltham1892 worse. We usually started anywhere between 6:30 and 7:00.

[@Waltham1892]

@@switchtheflip9422 YOU WERE A MONSTER! Anyone knocking on my door at 7:00AM on a Saturday had better be yelling "FIRE".

[@MrKit9]

I once answered the door naked with a beer in my hand. They never returned.

[@Miss_NatashaO]

@@switchtheflip9422 I wasn't fully functioning at that time of the day! Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[@phlipsburg]

Awww Penny was your study conductor, a young girl I presume, and the others were her veteran back up. I'm Soo glad this happened and this girl got to experience critical thinking. Thank you

[@TheraminTrees]

Penny was so sweet-natured. I suspected what she might've found most jarring was the rudeness from her colleagues. She looked shocked, ashamed and apologetic on their behalf a good few times - especially at a couple of explosive outbursts from Marcia I didn't include in this video. Penny clearly tried to distance herself from that behaviour - I can only hope something grew in that distance.

[@mryupjup2203]

@@TheraminTrees thank you for all your work man

[@weatheranddarkness]

@@TheraminTrees you were doing god's work, as it were.

[@amoralmarker6503]

​@@weatheranddarknessIronically.

[@NIL0S]

When I was a kid my parents would take me door to door. The JWs have this duality to them that rubbed off on me and that I have to fight to this day. They will smile and be polite at your door, even raise a semblance of interest in argumentation, but if they get rejected, even if politely so, what is said in the car about that person usually amounts to "well, they chose death, they can't be honest in their pursuit of the truth if they rejected our preaching." It's a sort of very on/off mentality, where somebody can become literally dead to you at the drop of a hat, simply because of a diverging opinion.

[@KILLRXNOEVIRUS]

"How dare you not believe in this! Look what you made god do to you!" - Them probably

[@coweatsman]

"what about penguins?" Or almost every native bird in New Zealand, an evolutionary adaptation to an environment with few predators of birds, or the emu, ostrich, rhea or cassowary whose size prevents aerodynamic efficiency .

[@NickRoman]

Yeah, I thought he was going to say ostrich. I don't think they swim either. But the swimming thing actually made for a better parable. Rather than just stopping that argument dead, it allowed an even more crushing come-back to their weak come-back.

[@clownworldhereticmyron1018]

@Michael Kevin Millet it's very difficult if not impossible to disprove some things. When asserting a claim, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim- not on others to disprove it. I could say invisible elven spirits are frolicking in my house right now and you'd have no way to prove me wrong, but since my claim has no evidence to back it up, you have no reason to believe it.

[@Longtack55]

NZ has about 200 bird species and about a dozen are flightless (kiwi, kakapo, weka, takahe, several wrens and adzebills, several penguins.)

[@timekeeper2538]

@Michael Kevin Millet Not necessarily, you're assuming that "God" instantly means the one you believe in, but there could be any number of indifferent Gods that have no effect on our lives.

[@sciencecompliance235]

@Michael Kevin Millet Ah, so you have consolidated your superstition. Good to know.

[@rfresa]

I'm so glad there are people like you who are willing to sit and debate with missionaries! 20 years ago I was a Mormon missionary when a kind atheist man invited us in. This was a shock, since most people simply turned us away uninterested. He offered us a comfortable seat and something to drink, and asked concerned questions like whether we had a safe place to live, which I later realized were intended to determine whether we were in some kind of human trafficking situation (a lot of Mormon missions are very close to that). Then he spent over an hour debating with us, debunking every pretense I had of logical reasoning for belief in God. When we left, I was clinging to blind faith alone, which lasted me through the rest of my mission but evaporated within a year after I got home.

[@jujuoof174]

I’m so glad you escaped this cult❤❤ I’m a non-mormon or JW Christian, and I would have loved to do the same as he did. Everybody believes in what they wanna, unless it just harms them

[@Deathnotefan97]

I remember a story a friend told me that happened when he was younger He was in his driveway working on his car, when a Jehovah's Witness walked up, started his spiel, then noticed the car and completely forgot why he was there and they had a conversation about cars He came back a few times for the next couple of weeks, and they only ever discussed cars, until one day he showed up with another JW, who made sure to steer the conversation to stick with their script, and they both left after a few minutes when it became clear my friend wasn't going to be converted The first guy never came back after that

[@Amorcea]

You'd think a car guy would know if something was convertible har har

[@MissPoplarLeaf]

​@@Amorceathank you for the joke lol, it was a welcome relief after reading through all these serious and depressing comments!

[@jauxro]

"what if the teacher started shooting students" ok I can see how that's a logical continuation of the analogy but goddamn it now I can't concentrate, that was horribly funny

[@WhooshWh0sh]

Danganronpa moment

[@Generic_Gaming_Channel]

American teacher

[@pythondrink]

@@Generic_Gaming_Channel lol ik what you meant

[@comradewindowsill4253]

walks in, glares at students do the math wrong and the flock gets the glock!!!

[@benjaminbrady2385]

5:50 I feel compelled to answer that problem. The answer is 17 / sin(62°). (I assume it's in degrees if it isn't just make sure to get your units correct by multiplying 62 by the ratio of radians in a full circle to the unit of angle used in a full circle and then take the sine of that in radians). The answer is approximately 77/4

[@Dan-vb5gc]

I think he's in gradians - send help

[@joanbaczek2575]

Thankyou!!!!

[@enigma1863]

I remember avoiding telling people we are trying to convert them. And that we were only encouraging bible discussion. To get them to admit they were only interested in converting you would be quite satisfying. I wonder if they took note that they lied.

[@josephfrechette9916]

enigma1863 if you came out and said you wanted to convert me we could have saved time but having a full on debate instead of a weeks long tea time.

[@borissman]

Thank you TheraminTrees! You guys where my inspiration after leaving the cult 5 years ago. Now, im filled with goosebumps after watching this video. Unbelievable. Perfect. Thank you

[@TheraminTrees]

Brilliant - glad you made it out! ;8)

[@christophermiller8589]

+TheraminTrees LOL The smiling face with scholarly glasses. Now I have to step up my emoticon game too?! >:U

[@TheraminTrees]

Christopher Miller That's a nose, not glasses ... ;8)

[@ericv00]

I'm actually disturbed that you kept this as an easter egg for so long. It is thoughtful, useful, and valuable. And I would hope that any such piece in the future is put out there more openly. I had an experience with Mormon missionaries very recently. I didn't remark on the scriptures so much as I went through the logic of certain beliefs. I talked about the need for real evidence, and the relative lack of value in wishful thinking. I talked about how religion compels a lack of action when action is needed. (To save lives or help in general) The problem of suffering was brought up as well. The two young women that had the conversation with me similarly made an effort to say they would seek answers from an elder before returning to me with the answers. I refused and opted instead to have them go through the logic themselves rather than being told by a fallible human what is true. We talked for hours. I understand them quite well, and they were actually impressed that I came from a JW family. They were surprised that I was receptive to conversation, and it seemed to resonate with them when I told them that I understood why they seek people out. Of course they want to convert people. They think they have the truth, the most important knowledge that there is. It would be an act of evil to keep that to one's self. After some time, the woman who was doing almost all of the talking came away quite thoughtful and curious. I doubt I have pulled her away from the religion, but I'm very sure I got her thinking a lot more about the people around her. She understands atheists and agnostics far better now. The silent one... well... it looked as if she had turned off quite sometime earlier in the discussion, and the look she gave me at the end was very similar to the one you described in this video.

[@acshuley]

i'm really fucking glad my mom decided to wake up after her divorce and see through the bullshit i appreciate her for valuing her children being able to recieve blood transfusions, organ transplants, and so much more regular things in life lots of needless suffering and deaths

[@kaduisaui4596]

The JW guy in my area wanted to become friends with my nephew. I got into some light chats about religion with the JW guy. I finally told him I was an apostate and he never came back. He stopped trying to woo my nephew as well.

[@Xochiyolotl]

Kadui Saui yes. It is for bidden to speak to apostates. Unless, that is, of course, you are an elder. I am sure they avoided you as if you were diseased.

[@ugolomb]

I remember one of my favourite teachers with whom I had a fundamental disagreement. I remember arguing about this with her in front of the class, during a lesson. Neither of us convinced the other, but she cheerfully allowed me to present my viewpoint in class, and my grades never suffered as a result.

[@squawk-box]

as an ex-witness, this rings uncomfortably true. hell, it got worse than this spometimes. some witnesses, like my father did to me, take their young children and force them to be part of these visits.

[@DrownedInExile]

14:23 "These were individuals motivated by kindness and love" The greatest crimes are always committed out of love. As for dehumanizing? These people are unfortunately doing a great job of that all by themselves. Reducing themselves to unthinking script-spewing puppets. It's very sad.

[@checkoutnow5464]

Some crimes of violence within the family are committed out of misplaced love. But, no the greatest crimes are not committed out of love - many people are harmed or die by negligence or indifference of others and historically hatred has normally been the cause of mistreatment and killings. Love is normally the essential component of our attachment to our friends, family and society.

[@cerberaodollam]

@@checkoutnow5464 yep, but hatred comes from the belief that the target did or will harm someone or something you love.

[@Chimonger1]

Excellent! I’ve had some interesting “discussions” w/them, over time, too...each different. Also heard from others, creative solutions to get them to cease harassment. Examples: 1. Middle aged woman lived around corner from JW hall. Neighborhood was ground-zero for newbie proselytizers, always young, in pairs. The woman had repeatedly told them to leave her alone; had gone so far as writing them to A) request, then B) demand, then C) hired lawyer to formally demand they cease & desist harassing. Yet they continued to door knock. So, at extremis, the next time, she’d just got out of shower, put on robe, answered door, took a sexy pose leaning on door frame, letting robe fall open, and said, in sultry voice...”can I help you boys?”...they were mid-teens, very shocked, jaws agape, turned, ran...THEN, no more came to door. (That might backfire, these days though..that was back in the 1970’s). 2. We lived in apartment, up long flight of steps, small landing by door. 2 older gals stood at sidewalk, while the teen newbie gal climbed steps to proselytize. She started her spiel. I asked her, “isn’t your religion the one that says something like only 244,000 will be saved & sit with God?” She lit-up smiling, chatting how nice it was I was familiar even a little (probly thot her task would be easier?...). She started chattering along again, more at ease. I asked the 2nd question: “How many members does the religion have, worldwide, now?” Again, lit-up, smiling, said some number in the Millions, and kept chattering about how great the religion was. After a little bit more chatter, I asked the 3rd question: “Isn’t that over-kill?” She instantly stopped chattering, looked absolutely shocked, like the carefully stacked Jenga pieces behind her face, just started to disassemble....then asked “Ummm...what?” I said: “Well, if the religion has millions of members, but only about 244,000 are promised to be saved, what happens with the rest of them who aren’t??” Well, by then, the Jenga-tower of programming behind her face was in free-fall. She stuttered, almost in tears, “I’m doing God’s work! It’s ok if I’m not one of the Saved!!” She was clearly Losing it. At that point, I simply, gently, with sincere compassion, told her, “The God I believe, is unconditional in their love, and would never leave out any who sincerely did their best to do God’s work; would unconditionally bring them along to be together.” She repeated her stuttering explanation of doing God’s work....spun on her heal, and about flew down the steps. None ever came to the door there again. 3. At new location, a couple older gals repeatedly visited. I never let them into the house, no matter how cold out it was. We’d stand on covered porch (no seats), talking about various things. At length. Telling them it was pointless, as spouse was pastoring at a different religion’s church, didn’t even register in their minds. Yes, I did know very well, that putting them in physically uncomfortable situation, was ploy to get them to give up, and, can be a form of brainwashing tool, too. We talked mostly of philosophical & religious, some as relates to world & events. This continued a couple times per month, or monthly, for over a year. Then they stopped, after I repeatedly told them to stop coming...at least for over a year. Then an older guy came, and we did similar...stood on porch, talked at length. He was a bit more aggressive at trying to get me to take the fliers; repeatedly asked about pastor spouse. What got scary, was that his facial expressions and tone of voice, frequently were very threatening/intimidating; And, his talks literally repeated, some verbatim, things I’d said in conversations with the 2 women before him. ...CLEARLY, the JW’s kept files on prospects! So, only a few visits into this guy’s routine, and very short on time/energy, I simply told the guy, ... “We do not tolerate, aid or abet cults, nor cult-like behaviors, here!”. His face didn’t even register he’d heard it, and kept talking. So, I repeated that a 2nd time. His face only barely registered partial comprehension, he stepped towards me, talking. I repeated that sentence a 3rd time, this time making sure of deep, Svengali-eye contact, and very firm, clear, enunciated tones, as his face was now into my personal airspace, less than 2’ away......this time he stuttered, seemed at loss for words; he reflexively shoved pamphlets into the now closing door. I carefully pushed those back out the door, told him firmly, “Remove the pamphlets! Take them away with you! No cults allowed here! Leave!” Never came back. At new location now, we either don’t answer door, or simply, politely, tell JW’s & LDS “No thanks”. Now, though, the HOA posted “no soliciting” signs at entrance. We tell them plainly, “There’s no soliciting in this neighborhood!”...that usually gets arguments of “We’re not soliciting, only sharing and educating”...to which we respond, “Soliciting is same as selling; you are selling religious beliefs; we didn’t ask for that; therefore, you, legally, are soliciting, against posted signage, which makes it prosecutable”. The JW’s have mostly stayed away after that, but the LDS don’t seem to get it yet. They might have to though, if some around here sue the churches for harassment; for soliciting in a neighborhood with “no soliciting” signs clearly posted.

[@kolyashinkarev7366]

Not really related to the topic in the video, but there are teachers who think students who propose unconventional solutions are rebelious and wrong, my math teacher was like that, she refused to acknowledge my solution to the problem even after i explained it to her, i wasn't really confident back then and i was young, so i nearly cried in front of the class

[@tzman215]

"If you look at penguins from under the water, they appear to be flying over you." Okay... What about emus, ostriches, dodos or cassowaries?

[@boblobgobstopper13214]

They appear to be flying over the ants on the ground 😂

[@lunatheluma3804]

Kiwis are a good one

[@tzman215]

@@lunatheluma3804 Oh ya good call. I don't think there's anyway you can slice it to say that kiwis "fly"

[@unhearted4510]

10:06 "Yes, that's why we ask questions, because we know ourselves not wise; Instead of trying to answer every question with the little we know."

[@youraftermyrobotbee]

I hope some part of your talks made it through to Penny. I hope she made it out.

[@tempestholmes]

I left the JWs nearly 3 decades ago. It remains one of my best decisions ever.

[@fanlou18_35]

Im in a private christian school, and whenever we ask the priest and all some deep questions about Bible and some weird stuff they never give us a proper answer.

[@GL887]

I really appreciate the end!Normally,with religious debates or arguments online any side would quickly condemn and maybe passive aggressively mock the other side,while not being critical of their own selves and behaviour.I like the mindfulness and nuance

[@Omniliptus]

This exact same fucking thing happened to me with mormons. One of them was listening and aknoweldging the questions I had, and aknowledged he couldn't quite answer them. Eventually he was replaced by a much more agressive dude that would not engage in honest conversation. Must be a tactic common among fundamentalists.

[@KatonRyu]

A bit earlier today I commented on another of your videos (respecting beliefs) with a reminder to remember the human, and then I stumbled across this one, in which you do exactly that and emphasize how important it is. So, unlikely as it is that you'll see this comment or that one, I just want to say: I'm glad you look at things so openly and rationally. A civil discussion, even with those you very much disagree with, is a better course of action than an abrasive or violent one. And, indeed, I don't believe that everyone is fundamentally good, either. And a lot of the people who aren't seek to influence those who otherwise might have been, as you illustrated here very clearly. Thanks for making these videos.

[@TheKorbi]

I love you TheraminTrees

[@thePyiott]

Thats a great quote from George Orwell. People often use 1984 as a way to describe the way society is headed, but its a bit redundant as 1984 is not meant as a prophecy but as a comment, or anology, on society and humanity as it is.

[@NoNameC68]

I wonder what long term impact you have made on Penny. I would like to think that even if our initial message doesn't get through to the other side, that something we say may resonate within them for some form of personal betterment, even if only a little. Here's a story you or one of your Patreon supporters might enjoy. The conversations are paraphrased to the best of my memory. A few months ago I was at a fair in which a man set up a booth discussing the "falsehoods" of evolution. There were free books and dinosaur toys scattered across the table. I read a sign which stated evolution contradicts conventional science. Having never debated creationists outside the internet before, I was perhaps a bit too overzealous as the first words to leave my mouth were, "Excuse me, but have you ever opened a science book?" The man behind the booth stood up in an instance, primed with the anti-evolution rhetoric we're all far too familiar with. This was not the first time he's been challenged. He exclaimed, "Science is wrong. We must rely on the word of God as written in the Bible." I immediately pointed to the sign that claimed evolution contradicts science. I asked, "You say science is wrong but the sign says evolution contradicts science. Which is it? You can't have it both ways." Our conversation about evolution was brief and heated, but with a daring smile I said, "I enjoy these kinds of discussions." The man at the booth smiled as well, "Me too." I knew I wasn't going to change this man's views. The reason I debated this fellow is because I enjoy debates... and I also wanted to potentially ward off any nearby parents or children who might be drawn by the pseudo-scientific books. But as I looked at the different books on the table, my heart sunk. No longer was I debating creationism for fun, my motivation for speaking out changed. Although most of the books were creationist propaganda, there were a handful of small booklets that differed from the rest. My stomach tightened as I reached down and picked one of them up. The subject? The sinfulness of homosexuality. I held the bundle of print up to the man in front of me, "This booklet right here contributes to the suicide of many homosexual teenagers." He explained that it wasn't the book that made teenagers suicidal, but their sinfulness. As he began to explain the sinful nature of homosexuality, I interrupted him. "I'm not concerned with whether or not homosexuality is a sin. What I'm concerned with is the effect these booklets have on gay teenagers." I explained the different ways parents often react with hate upon discovering their children are gay. He agreed. He made a few more attempts at defining homosexuality as sinful, but abandoned these arguments when he realized they weren't relevant to my concern. "I think it's wrong to tell anyone that homosexuality is a sin. But if you genuinely believe it's a sin, then at the very least you need to not punish children for being gay. You need to love them." Because I wasn't going to convince this fellow to change his views on homosexuality, I didn't address the issue. It would have been a waste of time and only detracted from the main point I wanted to make. I just wanted him to be aware of the violent ways in which some people react to their children when they come out of the closet. We both shook hands and agreed that loving those around us is important. We agreed that when those around us act in ways we disapprove of, we shouldn't resort to yelling at them, punishing them, or isolating them - but instead we should continue to love them. As long as he teaches others that homosexuality is a sin, only harm will come from these actions. But if he can teach others to react to homosexuality with love, then maybe less harm may be done. I sincerely hope our conversation left some sort of impact on him. Who knows? Maybe I'll see him again at the next county fair. If I do, I'll be sure to ask him about it.

[@TheraminTrees]

+NoNameC68 Yes, I think there's good reason to believe that some of the folks we speak to will reflect on what we've said and shift their position to some positive degree. It's about generating dissonance isn't it - offering contradictions that folks will have to square in their minds. The JWs got onto the subject of homosexuality too - some real naked hate came out on that one. The beauty of subjects like homosexuality is that critics don't have a leg to stand on - rarely are issues so clear-cut. Qualia and I pointed out contradiction after contradiction in all of their objections, until Marcia went into a kind of meltdown. But yes, I think it was Penny who we held out most hope for. Would be great to be able to find out what happened with some of the folks we meet - like your man in the fair. Maybe, as you say, he'll turn up again.

[@feynstein1004]

Did you see him again?

[@NoNameC68]

Nah, I haven't been to that particular fair since. Even if I did see him, I doubt I would recognize him unless he was behind another creationist booth. If, by some stroke of luck, I do converse with him again in the future I'll definitely update my story.

[@carlranns6658]

NoNameC68 None, we work from a completely different premise. People are not so aware of and don’t question their assumptions. Most people just believe what they’re told to believe by society at large.

[@Psyrmusic]

Fretboard Life’s chords “I’m bored” Are you the type of person who explains what a knife is for or did you hand your children swords? - Shores of stars and climbing shards of melody Even down here, They still reach me. Even in my blindness- they teach things; belief is a wall obscuring On the other side you confide “I hear something whirring-“ When God became much more disturbing. I can’t seem to find the right wording. When we move past belief will we actually start learning?

[@marselmusic]

I love it how unbiased you are

[@toomanythings5059]

Your videos are extremely interesting, I love your visual style, and your voice is so soothing! I'm glad I found your channel.

[@joanferguson4194]

Wow, great analysis! When I was an active JW I wasn’t afraid of people like you who challenged me to think. Little did I know, my own intellect was burbling away under the intellectual stagnation of the religion and tiny cracks were forming in the muck. That’s why when I left my starved mind drove me right into college and I did not miss the company of those dumbed down minions. Want to see JW hate, the real hate that simmers just below their carefully constructed veneer? Try being innocent of any moral wrongdoing and run into lifelong friends who sneer at you in the street for leaving the org. and going to school! An activity still scathingly denounced by their Governing Body members, by the way. Going to school is their equivalent of fornicating with the Devil. I don’t cut them any slack as I don’t believe as poor Anne Frank did, there is good in everyone. I’ve seen the mask come off JW people I knew for decades and it’s a life lesson I’ll never forget!

[@DinosaurNick]

You could easily break the penguin argument by mentioning ostriches

[@ohiocomando345]

This was extremely well thought out, insightful and well presented. I wish every Atheist could see it.

[@edsmelly]

I like the point that you make about how no amount of discussion, no reasoning, is going to bring about a change in their worldview. People hold onto their beliefs because the beliefs make them feel like they have some agency in the world. They believe that someone is watching over them, helping them out.

[@FrankClark]

thanks so much for this. i have jw family. i was also in cultish pentecostalism for a while. and when i became atheist, i had similar thoughts. you struck a chord with me on this one and i appreciate it. and i learned a lot about how to deal with jw's in this vid. thanks.

[@dogmeat7486]

That was an excellent example of succinct, logical and well written writing. You also explain yourself well and approach things in a logical way, i like that.

[@aurorawolfe6060]

How fragile a religion must be that the mere existence of penguins is enough to disprove a huge chunk of your beliefs.

[@cynthiapeach3944]

I grew up a Jehovah's Witness I am no longer one, while they are taught to be kind to others no matter who they are they are also taught that the outside world is wrong in every facet. I left because I'm lgbtq+ and while going to meetings was boring and learning about god was boring, it was a practice that if not upheld would be punishable by not receiving eternal life in their eyes. They are taught to be perfect in every single way, and that if they don't uphold their perfection or at least try to they will die and never come back to make them feel bad about disobeying, creating this kind of fear/jealousy tactic to do good and take away to do bad. (Jealousy meaning here to be envious of those who are more "spiritually invested" than you). In their eyes all sin is forgivable as long as you give in to Jehovah which gives people who have done unforgivable things an outlet to escape their regrets that haunt them, but tbh hitler could probably (absolve his sins) if he wanted to. It's an obsession with an all knowing all loving and caring concept that drives them, and being good in his eyes is the ideology they push otherwise when you die you die forever. But apparently if you die before Armageddon you're getting resurrected pretty much unless you happen to be given the chance to choose the faith and reject it, or leave the religion, or commit suicide, or genocide, (but if you become a witness before you die you can "absolve your sins") so basically god gets to pick and choose who lives and who doesn't in the new world. Also they have this view that in this new world everyone will be perfect.

[@crapaudbiscornu7941]

I wander what would’ve happened if you said “ostriches” instead of “penguins”.

[@TuxLinuxOfficial]

Btw the way guys x=19.25

[@thedarknessthatcomesbefore4279]

😂

[@apekkusu4563]

The worst thing is that my whole family is Jehovah's witnesses

[@urnastypubesfrom9yearsago929]

Dude same. Except for my mom's sise.

[@apekkusu4563]

@@urnastypubesfrom9yearsago929 Some ppl from my moms side aren't Jehovah's witnesses but Idk them

[@dnasar10]

Let's hope you'll never need a blood transfusion 😞

[@KL31NGR055]

Oh my God I'm in love with this channel, and the rotating baby in sweater? chef's kiss

[@wrathofainz]

I'm like 4 weeks into a weekly bible study with JWs. They're very manipulative and act like they care about the truth but are all too willing to throw out a random bullshit answer just to look good. Can't say "idk". I first asked how much god knows, to which the jw didn't answer and instead preempted my line of questioning by bringing up "free will", but she eventually answered something like "to show his right as lord over the garden" I.e. "god put the tree there to flex on his creation knowing fully well what would happen as a result." They also brought up a verse in James (1:13?) Saying that god doesn't try people as in sending natural disasters like some televangelists would have you believe... The issue is that they used "trial" instead of "temptation" (roughly). They're the same word in Greek so the jws choose the one that suits their narrative even though the verses immediately after that one (James 1:14-16) describe _temptation_ .

[@wrathofainz]

The JW stuff started one morning with a knock and me talking to a young man. For the next several visits there have been 2 of them, the boy and an old woman. He grew up a JW, she did not. The woman does most of the talking and speaks very confidently. The young man waits for times it seems appropriate for him to speak, presumably waiting until he can fulfill what is expected of him rather than saying what comes to mind and being chastised for it.

[@panathentic]

I find it hard to debate theism without entering their world. Their logic, and our logic, are rarely comparable. Like you showed yourself doing, I find it effective to dismantle their scripture, or holy books from within, as if my reality were the earth, and their reality were the Truman Show dome. It's clear to me, outside of their belief how artificial and flawed their reality is, but I can't show them the outside of the dome if they refuse to follow me out. Instead I need to peal away the sky painted wall until they can see beyond the bounds of their own, made up sky, and that takes a lot of poking and prodding to do.

[@gyiouss]

Honestly, as a religious man, when KZbin started recommended your videos I was a bit skeptical. However, you put a lot of thought into them, and so far they have provided me a lot of food for thought. Surprisingly, they tend to strengthen my beliefs, although occasionally I have to stop and really think "why do I believe that?"

[@christianstuff1278]

Don't give up your faith brother, keep studying the word of God with science. Because science and faith will actually work together

[@nathanmckenzie904]

@@christianstuff1278 no they wont, they are diametrically opposed

[@christianstuff1278]

@@nathanmckenzie904 not really, unless if that's what you WANT it to be

[@nathanmckenzie904]

@@christianstuff1278 well you can play word games but if someone makes a statement of fact it's either true or false. The Christian bible clearly makes a statement that we know to be false

[@simonegiunta9996]

I think I have a good analogy, pardon if you will the irony: As the rebellious child was expelled from the home of the unquestionable teacher, so too were the evangelising JW's expelled from our place of residence, as they had been rebellious towards the world that we at least perceived to live in.

[@Asha2820]

8:42 x=36.21 ...thank goodness... that feels better. Great video

[@mrdeanrandomgaming6265]

I got 19 (2s.f.) which would make sense as it's close to the opp... Out of interest, what did you do to get your answer?

[@corenlavolpe6143]

@@mrdeanrandomgaming6265 I uses law of sines to solve it and I got x = 18.47

[@lordnick9607]

You have to solve this to get the answer: x=[17/sin(62 degrees)], which is equal to circa 19.25

[@ChuckRage]

Just came across this channel for the first time, I love it! It makes for some easy listening and good entertainment. Subscribed!

[@Numba003]

I gotta say, when it comes to the issue of suffering, the books The Problem of Pain and A Grief Observed offer a very interesting discussion.

[@amojak]

i did this too, only once . a couple of JW's came to the door and instead of bluffing them off i decided to engage with them. one was an old lady armed with her bible and the other an not so old man who stood behind her. i asked them questions aout the bible and JW teachings and initially they were impressed with my bible knowledge. once i got into pulling it and their various points apart with logic i could see the man starting to nod/agree , he got quite carried away after around 30 minutes and at this point she observed this and ended the discussion. They never came back again, or their buddies. I have been blacklisted it seems. i wonder if the man had gained enough critical thinking to escape or wether he was forced into retraining by the "elders".

[@prosamis]

Your channel caught my interest I'm used to the atheist youtubers that just try to debunk ideas and yell logical fallacies, a matter that quickly gets boring and, in many cases, obnoxious Glad to find one that focuses more on core, important messages rather than the arguments in and of themselves

[@TheraminTrees]

Thank you for seeing what I'm doing.

[@RiskierGoose340]

I feel like there’s 4 ways you can deal with JW and other similar visitors. 1. Polite Decline. Simply say no and close the door. Pros: Quick and easy. No strategy needed. Cons: Likely won’t permanently deter visitors. Could be considered a pro by accounting for other options. 2. Fake interest. Lie about how you’re either already religious or that you’ll get back on them. Pros: somewhat more likely to deter, easy. Cons: could be annoying to do, if they catch on, could increase visits instead. 3. Challenge. Basically do what Theramin Trees here did. Pros: Validly prove your position. Stops future visits. Cons: Very long and difficult. Risk of failure. Consequences of failure awkward. 4. Archaic Denial. Do what many of these comments do. Claim you’re a Satanist. Yell at them. Act overly sexual. Claim you’re LGBTQ. Do anything that creeps or freaks out the visitors. Pros: Very likely to deter visit’s permanently. Quick and Easy. Cons: Look like an idiot. Also an asshole move. No chance of a proper discussion in the future either if it’s an option you’d consider.

[@bonogiamboni4830]

Damn, i was hoping for some happy ending like penny sneaking to his house to chat with him without the burden of the other two keeping her in check and eventually understanding the problems with JW and getting out of it. Still, her sense of doubt and critical thinking might have won out in the end.

[@mark8509]

I was raised as a JW, but started questioning things at a pretty early age. One of the first questions I asked still hasn't been answered to this day, and still puzzles some of my JW relatives to this day. During a bible study with one of the elders, he was talking about how Jehovah is all knowing, all powerful, etc. He said he could tell something was on my mind and he would love to hear it. I asked him "Satan corrupted Adam and Eve, and humanity as a whole was punished for it, correct? Well if God is all knowing, that means not only did He already know Satan would rebel against him and corrupt his creation, He stood by and let it happen, doing nothing to prevent it and dooming all of humanity in the process. And if He didn't already know that this was going to happen, and there was nothing he could do to prevent it, wouldn't that mean that He's not all knowing or all powerful?" He went silent for a minute and had the exact same response the woman in your video had. "I'll have to get back to you on that one." I never meant any disrespect when questioning these things, and tried to make that very clear, but they eventually started to shut down any questions I came to them with. That's when I realized I might be one of those "evil atheists" that my family had warned me about.

[@zachb1706]

God being all knowing makes any form of “free will” redundant. When you know everything that has or can happen there is no freedom.

[@samuelesanfilippo222]

I reached some balance on this, my family would try to explain to me and i would refuse, they said "you'll understand when it's time" and i am waiting, who know whether they'll even convince me.

[@samuelesanfilippo222]

@Kaneisalive yes that's basically it but unless i see one by one the sign of the apocalipse they are gonna have an hard time.

[@gustavlarsson7494]

"Flying - or maybe swimming"... ❤️

[@christopherpardell4418]

I used to invite the proselytizers in. I had an agenda- just once, I wanted to see it were possible to get Them to take Literature from Me. I did it for years- went thru about 20 pairs of well mannered evangelizers. And then one day I ended up having about a 5 hour discussion with a pair of them. I just kept calling into question the morality of the God they were describing. After a wide ranging conversation about their beliefs, they started to ask about mine. In the end, They accepted a copy of Watt’s ‘this is it’ and a collection of homilies by Gyomay Kubose called Everyday Suchness. I especially hoped they would read the Buddhist homilies - as I knew, to them it would sound so much like their own core beliefs- but expressed without any of the condemnation and magical nonsense in which they were so steeped. Strangely, after that one meeting and the achievement of my goal- I never had another jehovah knock on my door. It’s been nearly 30 years now. I wonder if those two, who took the books from me, ended up slipping away from their church... telling their fellows of our discussion, or maybe even passing on the books I had shared, and thereby infecting others with rational doubt and the realization that spiritual perspectives can exist without the encumbrance of authoritarian specters... I wonder if, somewhere, there is a downloadable blacklist shared among the evangelical proselytizers of addresses or persons they should never approach, for fear of losing their missionaries, with my name conspicuous... as perhaps why I have not seen a proselytizer ever since.

[@georgefabars7218]

Ugh, after years of being under their control, just hearing the word "Watchtower" tires me out :/

[@rubenalbrecht3066]

For me beeing a Jehovas Witness was the reason i was saved from religion generally. I literally followed their advice to not use the bible out of context and so I read the whole crazy thing. Ok that was only one of the many things and it also was just the beginning of my long and amazing journey, back then and all of that settled my path to become an atheist. But my journey isn't over yet and the most exicting part is still ahead of me.

[@bravenew1934]

A slightly wicked part of me wants to throw some quotes at them from Life of Brian eg “this nice little conversation we’re having right now is good enough for Jehov-“ *gets hit by a stone*

[@2wings1bird31]

I thoroughly enjoyed dismantling jw arguments. My house mate would get irritated when they'd knock because he knew there was about to be an hour long theological discussion. Every week I'd send them back with home work and they'd comeback every week with what they thought were answers and I'd pick them apart and the cycle repeated. I also got someone new sent to talk to me after a while and the new guy was alot more abrasive too

[@DeconvertedMan]

Dodo. Flying fish (Exocoetidae). Ostrich....

[@davidhoffman6980]

My first thoughts were flamingos and ostriches. Turns out flamingos can fly though. There's also emus.

[@pipertripp]

and don't forget the Kiwi!

[@halogen5580]

and then there are mammals the can fly and swim such as bats, dolphins, whales, ect

[@Thesupperals]

You just summed up why I disapprove all forms of religious faith and belief, yet I had to experience this through every one of them just to be sure I was right.

[@merylbarnes2770]

This was brilliant. I love your videos.

--- How was it brilliant? He still doesn't have God in his life. That's not brilliance.

[@merylbarnes2770]

@ neither do I. What of it??

@@merylbarnes2770 -- "What of it"? -- The author of the video needs God in his life. You do too. We all need God in our life.

[@merylbarnes2770]

@ that's a matter of opinion and is personal. It's not anyone else's job to force others to believe their way.

[@merylbarnes2770]

@ I appreciate your wanting to help, but you have no idea of the spiritual abuse I've suffered in my life and I have no interest in picking up a bible or thinking about a god at this time. Thank you.

[@FaiisinHereYes]

I fail to understand that all the "good" intentions that come with religion also comes with repressiveness towards the greys. You've talked about how the concept of hell divide the people in the middle into moderate "bad" and moderate "good". I also have once asked a few of my religion teachers what about the good deeds of the non-believers, and they all come to the practically the same conclusion; that their good deed on earth will be repaid by another good deed on earth (funny how these people of abrahamic religion teachers are practically giving me the karma teaching to answer this question), but not in the afterlife. But those answers baffled me. Same as the analogy they often used to teach me about how God will forgive serial murderer who repent but will not forgive disbeliever. I'd rather not adhere to any religion that dehumanize people just for the sake of believing the God-of-all. I understand that no one can give one definitive answer about the afterlife, and so can no one explain just what is the soul that all the living being have. But to give compass to morality by coursing good and bad with heaven and hell while also linking religion to it seems too compact to me. If only God was always present in our everyday life, maybe religion would've had no questions.

[@super---.]

Maybe if youtube commenters cared to learn about proper spacing, I would care to read their ramblings

[@billpetersen298]

An old pair of ladies used to come around. One day I told them cockroaches are more evolved than us. We pollute, and displace nature, to the detriment of all living things. Cockroaches, live, and let live. That lit their hair on fire.

[@stephaniewhite7620]

so true it saddens me and like poem you put it so

[@Marina-nt6my]

I had to pause when the teacher comes back holding up an ak That's pretty funny

[@RainAngel111]

I really wish more people understood the real state of human logic. People have this assumption that anyone can be won over by logic and that if you aren't, you're purposefully lying for some selfish reason. They don't understand the power of denial. People will abuse logic however they please to justify believing whatever they are most comfortable with. In debates the use of an appeal to emotions is often criticized, when in real life that's often the most effective way to change someone's mind. Before honesty and logic can come in, you need a genuine motivation to question your current beliefs. This applies to any strongly held beliefs or opinions, like climate change denial or anti-vaxxers.

[@J-sv9dp]

Good point. Some people are motivated by intellectually curiosity alone but many people are simply afraid of losing face etc. People have so many fears about truly examining and potentially losing own pre-existing beliefs. I think first and foremost, people need to feel that there is a safe space for them outside of their current comfort zone.

[@rdcdt6302]

I am catholic and I like your video :)

[@TheSkipper1921]

I don'y get visits from The JW's anymore not since I allowed the blood center to put up the signs for my local blood drives on my lawn.

[@badger1296]

HahHaahahhhahHhahahHHAHAHaHA THAT IS GREAT!🤣

[@mackenzieusher8025]

One thing that I appreciate so much about your channel is that even though you are justifiably critical of religion, you never resort to name calling. The way in which you calmly reason inspires respect, which I think is plainly evident from the comments left on your videos. I can visit any number of atheist channels that are flooded with insults and unnecessarily divisive language.

[@Spatzenzunge]

Oh the memories! My discussions with the JWs went much the same, though both original missionaries were exchanged as time went on, and the interactions ended not by their choice, but when I didn't accept their invitation to meet an Elder flown in from America (the last two missionaries I talked to also were immigrated Americans) at their complex. Even though it was interesting to witness that 'carrier pigeon behavior's, as you aptly called it, and seeing the stack of books they brought each time grow and grow was fun (I had also "brought" books into our discussions, from my shelves, mostly biology texts). I hope they're alright.

[@lich.possum]

I'm glad that i managed to challenge my own religious beliefs and open my eyes. I try to respect people and their beliefs but it gets tough when they truly believe that theres a giant guy in the sky who's watching over us.

[@GreatBeanicus]

Honestly it sounds like Penny in particular would have been a good person to continue discourse with. Even if her religious views stayed the same, it sounds like she was genuine throughout. Altogether this is a great approach, and i might consider it myself the next time a JW comes to my door.

[@ipromisethatserendipityisa9656]

It baffles me why they are still recruiting. Arent there supposed to be only 144K slots of the people that can be saved. That has long been filled up. Should we fight to the death for that spot Hunger Games style?

[@coldboltlighting1237]

That is only for the anointed 144,00

[@nilzacosta4198]

Esse vídeo é muito bom........o final é épico congratulações

[@intheshell35ify]

I thought I heard an undertone of religion rage/cry in a few of this dudes other videos. But good on him, I mistook him for some kind of click-worthy expert. Well done.

[@thomasbyrd9352]

Some of these scenes would be really funny if you removed the context

[@pungetello]

You should try the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints next :D (I'm actually curious...)

[@Aaron-mj9ie]

I had this really nice old man who was a Jehovah's witness come knock on my door. The first time I gave him an excuse that it just wasn't a convenient time, but he came back. THEY ALWAYS COME BACK. But on the third or fourth visit I flat out told him, "Look man, I have to be honest with you. Not only am I not interested, but I also don't want you to waste your time." It felt weird because there was something about this dude that came across as much kinder and more genuine than any of these door to door snake oil salesmen of the soul. He just smiled and said, "I've never had anyone put it like that." And then I never saw him again. In another life, I'd like to think that we could have gotten a beer and hung out. In a world without Jehovah's witnesses.

[@mrcheese6247]

You should try this with Mormon missionaries because they’re a bit more deceptive

[@businessman3606]

The teacher analogy kinda struck me as a childish teacher…

[@TheNitrop]

3:43 Am I the only one who thought "kiwis" and "Dodos" ? We got Ostrich too now that I think about it... Sorry, just sharing something that popped out in my brain :)

[@alexr6068]

My instinctive thought was "Ostrich"

[@dk6024]

It turns out that using logic against unreasonable positions just entrenches the holders.

[@ZombieHitler]

The Journey to Truth is like Batman climbing out of the Pit in The Dark Knight Rises. People rely on Faith like the rope. They will never escape the Pit; but the rope gives them Hope, by keeping them alive as they fail. This ironically traps them from the Truth they faithfully seek to grasp. There is only way out of the Pit: like the child does, without the Rope. Standing with Truth is fundamentally different from being in the Pit. Mutually exclusive experiences, with different axioms and approaches.

[@RaineeG62]

As an Ex-JW I found your reasoning well thought out. It was someone like you, someone who challenged my thinking, that helped get me out of the mindset. I've been out for almost 20 years. Who knows but maybe you helped that lady Penny see things differently and she may leave that group as well?

[@CassD33]

That's very true. Whenever I hear discussions like this... I often wonder if the the witnesses change their mind down the road. Some do.👍

[@louistournas120]

@@CassD33: "That's very true. Whenever I hear discussions like this... I often wonder if the the witnesses change their mind down the road. Some do.👍" ==Most likely no, she won't change her mind. Also, she is a woman and statistics show that women are more religious than men. In the atheist population, there are more men than women. Also, some christians are conditioned to think that human logic and god logic are two different things and that human logic is faulty. They are asked to have blind faith even if the Bible doesn't make sense. Sometimes they quote the line "Your ways are not my ways". Also, if they leave christianity, what will happen to their souls? Pascal's wager? Perhaps they are souless animals?

[@christopherf4929]

Believe in Jesus Luke 14:26-“If you want to be my disciple, you must, by comparison, hate everyone else-your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33-In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

[@RazorM97]

@@christopherf4929 I don't need to be a self loathing religious idiot, no thank you

[@slimebros8664]

@@christopherf4929 and yet an ideology like that removes many of the values of these religions such as the many family and relationship values making it self contradicting.

[@deedlessdeity218]

Conclusion: If you are articulate and knowledgeable, do talk with them. Any of their young members who can be moved to begin that ever so tiny process of thinking for themselves is worth the hassle. You may never know the outcome, but you give the opportunity. They think they need to save you. Instead, you may have the opportunity to save someone. Be the pebble that one day becomes a landslide a mind.

[@jessicataylor7174]

I agree with you completely Deedless Deity!

[@NothingXemnas]

That is more or less what I have been doing. I am agnostic, but my family is Buddhist. I know about Buddhist and Shinto spiritualism and teachings. Still, it is a pleasure to visit all sorts of churches, even if some of their teachings don't align with my ideals. While visiting an a church, I became more or less friends with a young boy who is a huge fan of Japanese stuff like I do, but he would swear about going to Japan and evangelize. In my latest talks, I had him know a few things that both align and contradict his teachings. He would bring up news from Buddhists and Shinto priests who converted into Christianity as a token of Christian success, and I would tell him that, well, Japanese have their own views about how nature is a manifestation of God and spiritualism in general isn't so different. In the few times I contradicted his teachings on purpose, he would freeze for a second. Perhaps he thought I am wrong and should be converted, or perhaps I actually pulled a string in his heart. Either way, I am working my way into his heart to at least make him more moderate about his approach to faith, and that if not everyone converts during his evangelical quest, he at least would understand that people have free will, either as humans or as "given by God". Though I don't believe in it, merely saying to him that he "shouldn't feel bad if people don't accept Jesus, it is in their choice not to be saved" as right given by God himself would potentially make him much less... passionate about it. It is a very slow process... It grinds on him as much as it grinds on me as well. But if he finds a more comfortable life away from such tight shackles he put on himself (mind you, the Church does NOT force you to do everything, it is always a choice), then I would be happy. If he becomes agnostic or even atheist, I don't care, I just want him to be more accepting of the fact people can live however they want, so long it doesn't harm other humans. Anything that makes someone live happily is worth the effort. And perhaps save some Japanese from dealing with the hassle of an evangelizing acolyte. They already have their own cultists to deal with.

[@abdou.the.heretic]

I'm no one's savior.

[@msaocer]

Yes, while outside arguments wont convince a jw, it can create some tiny doubts in their mind, like small cracks, which can then cascade into them deconstructing their religious belief by themselves over time.

[@runakinsley3450]

Thank you for not forgetting their humanity.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Sometimes.

[@Reason1717]

Runa Kinsley, what a wonderful and mature comment. Your words speak well of you. I do hope your a fellow Atheist, but if not, your words here tell me you're of sound mind.

[@godgod156]

@Nietzsche’s Disciple if i was not as worried about global warning, survival, traps, i would love conversing deep. But they don’t like me i guess.

[@godgod156]

Its okay they are just upset. Love you!

[@csillatorok5060]

@The Wolf of Justice and Truth they are not the same persons but I can see your point, they still responsible for their preaching

[@janer7792]

I remember about 20 years ago, we would get plagued by JWs all the time. Then one summer a friend of mine who happened to own a pygmy goat asked me if I would pet sit for her. I did and bought Kevin (goat) home with me and let him out into the garden. Kevin would often wander in and out of the house a bit like a spindly legged dog, anyhoo, one day there is a knock on the front door and it's the JWs, would I be interested in knowing about Jesus etc. I politely explained that I wasn't interested and at that moment the goat stuck his head round the door and stared at the pair of them. We all looked at each other and I said "sorry as you can see I'm a satanist", They left and never came back, in fact they would make a point visiting everyone else but would avoid our house like the plague.

[@ikcikor3670]

I love this

[@anime.soundtracks]

did you get visited by satanists after writing this comment? lol

[@nomegusta3942]

@@anime.soundtracks Satan's Witnesses knocked on her door the next Wednesday

[@NabilaOrientalDance]

Bwahahahahaha!

[@ktvx.94]

Hero

[@seanmcivor9809]

I was born into a jw family. Hated the smiling all the damn time till my cheek bones hurt. The logical reasoning behind things didn't make sense to me. I was told when you reach 18 I could stop. Got baptized at 16. Got depressed at 18 I left them I said I would come back one day out of politenes. I would never. At 21 I moved out of family home to finally think for myself, love myself and speak for myself.

[@jarvis5552]

Amazing! I hope you're doing well nowadays.

[@kaielyse9313]

How are you doing?

[@MissPoplarLeaf]

I was raised in an Evangelical Christian household and had a similar experience. During my teenage years I started realizing that a lot of the teachings just didn't make sense to me and none of the pastors provided satisfying answers. I couldn't make myself believe something that didn't make sense to me, and I didn't want to fake my belief either, as that would be dishonest to everyone - and they want "true believers" anyway. So I just stopped going to church after I entered college. It was a huge relief. My mother still tries to get me to go, but every time I visit her (very rare) and I attend church to humor her, I'm just reminded of why I left. It's excruciating.

[@msaocer]

Haha I didnt have to fake smile because everyone was used to seeing me appear grumpy