Before the Review: Dutch & Dutch 8c Bookshelf Speaker

This is my "before the review" discussion of the Dutch & Dutch 8c active bookshelf speaker. It is a ~$12k USD/pair active bookshelf speaker featuring cardioid design where all the energy above 100Hz is forward-firing. I provide some highlights, information on the design and discuss general features that I may not otherwise have a chance to provide in my final review. If you don't care anything about that, then don't watch. I'll post the full review once I finish it but that could be a while out. Otherwise, I hope this is useful and you find it entertaining.
More details on this speaker can be found here:
dutchdutch.com/8c/
If you want to help me pay for additional test gear/subjects please consider using my amazon affiliate link below if you need to order anything through them. It helps me with a small commission at no additional cost to you. We all need underwear, right?... well, most of us ...
geni.us/jqOk on Amazon (commissions earned)
Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:27 - Before the Specs
3:00 - Specs
4:56 - What is Cardioid?
7:57 - Placement (closer to the wall is better)
8:32 - Inputs/Outputs
9:41 - DSP Built-in (REW Compatibility)
10:24 - The Front Baffle Design
14:33 - Outro
____________________
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All of my tests are conducted using KLIPPEL Hardware and Software. KLIPPEL is an innovative leader in providing unique test equipment for electro-acoustical transducers and audio systems. Founded in 1997 by Dr. Wolfgang Klippel, the novel techniques developed for control and measurement systems of loudspeakers and other transducers are the result of over 30 years of fundamental research. This provides more accurate physical models of loudspeakers, micro-speakers and headphones valid for both small and large amplitudes. The focus is on revealing the root causes of signal distortion and defects and giving practical indications for improvements in design and manufacturing of audio products. For information on KLIPPEL products, please visit their site below:
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[@rocco036]

I've not heard anyone have a bad word to say about these. I know they're very expensive, well for me they are! But I could replace my speakers, subs, mono blocks & preamp. I've spoke to a dealer & I'm going to audition some, if the UK ever comes out of lockdown. They're supposed to be able to play down to nearly 20Hz & go as loud as you could ever wish with no distortion. Really looking forward to your full review.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

They are truly incredible speakers. Hopefully I'll have the review up within a few weeks.

[@tjkadar]

"Outside my means by a huge margin..." I am right there with you! Very happy Dutch & Dutch gave you the opportunity to review these beasts!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

lol. Me, too. This may be my only chance to review a speaker like this.

[@FSXgta]

Wow this is the most interesting speaker design I've seen. Looking forward to the full review!

[@mb-electricalservices]

The real beauty of these is the REW integration. I find REW, properly used, can easily match any room correction software out there. REW does a much better job of aligning my subwoofers than any room correction software I've used to date.....

[@bigstroke2069]

Erin, I really look forward to your review of the D&D 8C. They are so fascinating to me and it will be interesting to get your opinion. Cheers.

[@alont93]

Yet another informative video. Thanks, Erin! Looking forward to the review!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thanks!

[@astra004]

One of the most interesting speaker concepts of the last years. Also remarkable: a company is loaning a pair of expensive speakers to a reviewer who does measurements. I‘ m looking forward. Please try different positions if possible. This might be one of the strength of the Dutch&Dutch 8c. To be placed near the walls.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I agree. So far I've had a few companies willing to loan me product to review. And in those cases they seem to be a science-driven company. I think that says a lot for the future of the industry. Of course, there are still holdouts who don't want data published but I'm slowly working my way down the list.

[@astra004]

@@ErinsAudioCorner I‘m confident. Really rich customers are rare. Background listeners also need no measurements. But all folks who spend money in a reasonable amount can’t afford to send it down the drain. Those are the grateful ones. Anyone who experienced that speaker positioning is more relevant than cables or dacs will not feed an industry selling audio jewellery. In the long run quality counts.

[@redalert2progames501]

Great intro and feature walk through- can’t wait for the extended review!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thank you. Stay tuned!

[@redalert2progames501]

Erin's Audio Corner hey Erin any update on when we might get the full review?

[@jharloe]

Excellent review

[@Psyphonyx_Life]

Love it ! .. can't wait to see some data =)

[@dougg1075]

Read a review of the Kii III last night and they seem the best in the world according to the reviewer . Also sound canceling front fire tech. Now to find 12k

[@OHMAudioChannel]

This is going to be an interesting one. My initial though with the tweeter being so far away from the woofer is that this would have terrible driver integration. It wasn't until you mention the massive wave-guide that it made sense why the spacing seemed so extreme.

[@thomaslutro5560]

And the fact that the waveguide also helps make the low crossover possible.

[@chrisvinicombe9947]

Hyped for these.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

In the words of Patrick Swayze: Ditto.

[@KravchenkoAudioPerth]

I like your discussion of this speaker. I have a few points that I thought to mention. Cardiod response with produce a null or dip the the response. Not a brick wall as per your white board sketch. It is more to deal with potential room interactions than anything else below 100 hertz as there is little to spatial cues (sounds that tell you where something is in 3 dimensions) in this region of sound. The ports are there to produce a null point, and you can do a bit in the DSP via Phase or signal timing effects. But nothing other than active cancelling drivers will give you a truly deep cardioid null effect. This one in the Dutch and Dutch is about 12db. You have the ability to measure polar response and you can show this if so choose. Only other point of discussion because I have designed horns for over 27 years. That tweeter is mounted in a dispersion control waveguide. It is not deep enough to offer any significant acoustic leverage that will provide a useful amount of gain down that low. As in to 800 hertz. This is only a simple point of engineering reference for both my comments. Your presentation is great. I love your discussion. And these are very well engineered speakers that are in a very small class of very well done loudspeakers. Looking forward to your review and the details you may put into it! Mark

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, some of my explanations were "dumbed down" a bit but on purpose as to not get too down in to the weeds of the technical aspect. Some certainly will know more about these topics than I but many will not have a clue so I wanted to make this more of a higher-level informative discussion than a white paper level discussion. And, yep, I will definitely be providing polars. :) Thanks for the kind and constructive feedback. I truly appreciate it.

[@FOH3663]

@@ErinsAudioCorner Myself, I feel you're missing your core audience by dumbing down ... bring it on, they'll catch up!

[@Crane251]

Looking forward to this review Erin, curious to know your subjective impressions after you set this up with DSP relative to the revel and kef you tested.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

You and me both. I've been listening to these for quite a while and have already formed my opinion based on subjective. I'm just waiting to get the opportunity to measure them because I am really curious to see what I can glean from the correlation of the two.

[@thomaslutro5560]

Fun fact. Trying for a cardioid is not entirely new. I've seen waveguided tweeters on many speakers over the years. And the side vented mids have been around for some time too. My own Gradient Revolution (first tested by Stereophile in 1995, mine are the 2005/Mk III model) are one example, another design from Finland Amphion another. Both have vented sides and waveguides (the Revolution by using the mid cone as a waveguide, and dipole for the bass). This really works. Whether it's just the absence of that usually terrible dispersion discontinuity around the mid/high crossover, or the overall reduced dispersion/more direct sound/less reflections, I don't know. But it works. Even in difficult rooms at shows they would always shine. I've had a preious pair of "normal" speakers in ten different rooms with ten wildly different results, then the Gradients in two (and who knows how many demos). The Grads sound pretty consistent everywhere I've heard them. This is the way forward as far as I'm concerned. All I would ask is a cardioid down to a bit under 100 Hz to cross over to a sub or two or four, and the possibility of using an outboard DSP and amps. Oh, and something one can afford on a government salary....

[@DavideSacco73]

looking forward of your review. I had a chance in Milan Hifi Show to hear them in a non so good room, and they were fantastic, Martijn Mensink was there showing the speakers with some of Blade Runner 2045 tracks... lot's of fun. Hopefully you will have a test with ATC SCM100A next ;-)

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thanks for sharing!

[@Rene_Christensen]

If you ever get your hands on some Kii speakers, it would be great to hear how they compare to D&D :-)

[@christopherburbidge972]

A diamond for sure!

[@lancebartlett3892]

Erin! You diamond!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I'm less like a diamond and more like cubic zirconia. But... I'll take it! haha. Thanks!

[@tjkadar]

Essentially Dutch & Dutch created a 'soffit mounted monitor' avoiding comb filtering from the front wall for frequencies above 100 Hz while still having bass reinforcement from the front wall below that... ingenious engineering!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Yea... that's one way to look at it. They have a 'studio' version as well. Not sure what the difference is but it is on their website.

[@homeboi808]

Really looking forward to what the Spins of these look like due to the Cardioid nature (well, Napir measured them, but only measured to 200Hz). I still don’t understand the whole “coupling to the rear wall” that always gets mentioned in reviews.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Me too (on the spins). I talk about the coupling aspect. Boundary reinforcement. And since the midrange isn’t going backward there’s no detriment to the sound.

[@homeboi808]

@@ErinsAudioCorner I get that, but the word “coupling” is always mentioned (is it in a brochure or something)? However, you talking about setting the distance from the real wall is probably what that means.

[@FOH3663]

Re; "coupling" It's all about wavelength size, and relative distance off the adjacent boundary. I've not read any D&D material, but I'm guessing they're referring to coupling being largely free from destructive interference in the wavelaunch. The 8" subs on the back cover 100hz downward. With an ~11 foot wavelength @100hz, those will radiate essentially evenly in all directions throughout the sub's operating range. To avoid destructive interference, and to allow a nice wavelaunch into the room, those 8" subs need to be up close and acoustically "coupled" to the front wall. To avoid SBIR destructive interference, the theoretical ideal is flush mounting. That creates a zero interference hemispheric wavelaunch into the room. The physics of SBIR (speaker boundary interference response) dictate that at 1/4 wavelength off the wall, the interference can create an entire 180° out of phase nulling of the energy. 100hz wavelength is 11.3 feet. 1/4 wavelength of 100hz is ~2.8 feet. So if the backside of the D&D monitor is placed at 2.8 feet off the front wall, it would theoretically have an entire full cancelation centered at 100hz. I'm guessing this is review for many here. All the best.

[@thewarrendavid]

Hey, great in depth review. I'm looking to get a pair of these. Who was your rep because I'd really like to talk with them?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thanks. If you want to shoot me an email I can give you some contact info for D&D. 👍

[@dmkays]

Cardioid, I get it. You're saying that speaker has the same sound projection pattern as the Horns found on GE Locomotives, like the GP-8.

[@Simplektis]

Erin, do you think 3 of these at the front could be part of a home theatre system? Could latency cause of the internal DSP interfere with the EQ from an AV? Hypothetically someone could treat them as full range and complement them with another couple of subs in a “5 sub system” (3 full range and two subs), using Dirac bass management.

[@homeboi808]

AVRs have distance adjustments, so delay shouldn’t be an issue.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Agreed with the above. Shouldn't have any issues. Easier, even, if you have pre-pro with XLR outputs.

[@nearlynormal6987]

How do these compare with Buchardt A500 or Dynaudio Focus XD 30?

[@lukerestlessstudios]

Erin, would you take the Dutch or the Kii Three?

[@dilbyjones]

Oh! Yea!

[@ActuallySettle]

Hell yeah Erin, looking forward to this

[@AllboroLCD]

I honestly see active speakers as the future of HiFi, it just makes sense to me if the speaker is thoroughly developed like this D&D. The sub out is throwing me off though, if it has dual 8's on LF duty, why the sub out? Is there a D&D sub intended to go in with these?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I assume it’s for the person who wants a 15-inch sub. That said, the dual 8’s wall-loaded provide a LOT of output. My in-room measurements before DSP had them at something like +10dB at 20Hz. 😳

[@anandshah71]

Looking forward to the review Sad these are nit sold in my country I heard the Kii3 at a show and was superb but couldn’t give me the pressure I wanted dealer pushed it to nearly 80% volume D&D smart reviews you don’t find on youtube Great work DD on loaning Erin I trust him

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thanks for the kind words, sir! These really are interesting speakers. Never heard a cardioid design before so I was excited to get the opportunity to review them. I'll have to check out the Kii 3 (maybe, who knows, they'd be willing to loan me one to review as well). I'm surprised these aren't available where you live. You might want to email D&D just to see if you have options.

[@ilke-d]

A comparison between Dutch&Dutch 8c and the new Dynaudio Focus 10 would be nice. Does the price difference do justice I wonder...

[@300ZCorradoVR6Z]

When’s the final review coming?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Hopefully in a few weeks. I talk about it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJirlat5lLKSnZY

[@TrueGenius]

Dropping knowledge.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Gettin' my nerd on.

[@colbylaro9361]

Lol @the happy tree!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I reminded myself of it when I was making the drawings. Had to include that. LOL

[@cybergod77]

a sound demo wd be great

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Sorry, man. I don’t do sound demos for numerous reasons.

[@nhennessy6434]

Binaural demo would be outstanding.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Sorry, man. I don’t do sound demos for numerous reasons.

[@bigjay1970]

The make the buchart a500 look like toys!😉🤪😇

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

haha. No doubt.

[@anandshah71]

When is the review coming out

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Hard to say. Weather is a factor here as well as a couple other things. I hope soon but I'm just waiting.

[@Eric_the_Hiking]

_beaucoup_ settings?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Dude, I was now years old when I found out how to spell the darn word. haha

[@300ZCorradoVR6Z]

Doesn’t beaming on an 8” woofer happens closer to 1.8-2khz?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Half wavelength is what I always use for beaming and jives with measurements. 13500 in/s *0.5 / 8 = 844Hz. But depending on actual radiating diameter it could be a bit higher. For example: www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/scanspeak-22w/8851t-00-8-revelator-woofer/

[@300ZCorradoVR6Z]

@@ErinsAudioCorner I used to have a chart with the approximate beaming frequency on all driver sizes and could swear it was in the 1.8-2khz for an 8" woofer but then again it has been around a decade or so since I looked into that and I'm most likely wrong. My B&C 8PS21 has a Sd around 6 3/4" and is pretty smooth to 2khz off axis in my test box but I cross it lower than that at 1.45khz. That Revelator woofer isn't really meant to play that high, so I wouldn't expect it to have a nicely behaved off axis response that high.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

@@300ZCorradoVR6Z based on your reply about the revelator playing up to a certain frequency, sounds like you are conflating breakup with beaming. Beaming is just when the speaker becomes directional. It is based on the geometry. Breakup is what happens after beaming; modal peaks/dips due to the cone makeup. Two same-size drive units can behave completely different after beaming but will become directional at about the same point.

[@300ZCorradoVR6Z]

@@ErinsAudioCorner No confusion here between beaming and cone breakup. It's just that that Revelator woofer wasn't really intended to be used in a 2 way, the response is not very smooth in the low treble and high midrange. Zaph tested it a couple of months after he tested my B&C's.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

@@300ZCorradoVR6Z your reply threw me for a loop when you talked about the purpose of the revelator. I wasn't sure if you were talking about the one I linked; in which the point was only to show how the 1/2 wave calculation is more accurate for determining the beaming point. Not to say it's good or bad. I thought maybe you were misunderstanding directivity vs breakup. No worries. Glad you are enjoying what you've got.

[@Rene_Christensen]

Btw, I can calculate the effect of screw holes on the acoustics, if you are interested. - René, acculution.com

[@kjbunnyboiler]

Had the review not appeared yet?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Not yet. The DD8c rolled in around mid-October. The following week I reached out to Klippel to discuss the purchase of the NFS. I had been hoping the NFS would have been here months ago. But with Covid causing them to be short staffed along with the holidays, it took some time for everything to get worked out and for them to get back shipping products. Thus, the delay. I really wanted to wait for the NFS to measure the DD8c. I did not want to use my standard measurement method for them for two main reasons: 1) blocking the side vents was going to present a challenge and potentially result in me not providing complete vertical spins and 2) it’s an expensive speaker and I didn’t fancy the idea of touching it about 150-something different times to rotate it, move it, set it up, etc. TL;DR: It’s coming as soon as I can get to it. I’m as eager as anyone to provide that data. More eager, in fact.

[@ACTIONLEVER]

"Maybe there's a happy tree, evergreen tree. He lives right there"

[@richardwellington9412]

Ol

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

:D

[@lorenzoalleva3102]

Hi Erin, you’re are doing a great Job. Pls reach out Bruno Putzeys @kii audio. He created the fully dsp cardioid speaker Kii three. You Must listen to it as well, then you have reviewed the two best bookshelf speaker ever. Best wishes of Happy year end and safe 2021

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Thank you! I'll keep that in mind.

[@astra004]

You know you’re an audiophile...when you wait for the review of a speaker you can’t afford.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

LOL. Right?

[@astra004]

@@ErinsAudioCorner No, I‘m not an audiophile. It would be much of a stretch to save up for the Dutch&Dutch, anyway my wife wouldn’t be pleased to see those two speakers in our living room. The Buchardt A500 are more in reach. Or the smaller Revel‘s .Or Harbeth‘s. But that‘s not what is important to me in the moment. Yesterday I discoverd the lp „Colossal Youth“ from Young Marble Giants (1980). Heard in on Amazon HD. Fantastic music and a low noise level I‘ve never encountered from a small label of that time period. I missed them back then in 1980 and would have surely fallen in love with that recording. Now it‘s too late for a hot affair. Only hugging. If someone is insecure on the own audio-orientation, go to forum.audiogon.com/discussions/you-know-you-re-an-audiophile-if

[@rhalfik]

I'd pay to see what's inside that lossy chamber, or better yet learn how to simulate one myself.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I'll see if I can get some more insight in to what is inside. But I'm not sure how much they'll be willing to tell me.

[@rhalfik]

There's some documentation of early design stage on diyaudio, but it's not telling much.

[@christopherburbidge972]

Impressive but not $12k impressive.