Ben Cathro | The "science" behind how the pros clip-in!

[@Sleeper.collective]

We are super excited to be working closely with Ben for 2024 making all the videos of all the things 🎉

[@TeddyParker]

(opens a MTBing video, notices the music is great... "oh this must be a SleeperCo video", checks comments... YEP)

[@LawrenceMacMacster]

All the videos on all the things?! There's a lot of stuff on this earth. Geez 😅

[@Adoogin]

I appreciated the edit!! I did. His stuff is usually great but those two clips you guys added when he mentions road & track was effing hilarious.

[@mr.bopington6065]

This is the best news I’ve heard today!

[@ctquadracing]

I’d be interested to see what position pro Enduro riders have the cleat position.

[@fiveten]

Next video?

[@Alex_Abdullayev]

I betcha anything it's just like the DH crowd, slammed all the way back

[@brendanlewisisme]

Same be great to see what people who pedal to the top do!

[@benikuqi]

Somewhere in the middle

[@tomnutting3836]

From what I’ve seen on here, Moir runs his slammed back

[@martinschwartz7342]

Thank you Ben for another very informative and enjoyable video. You are a giant in the world of bike journalism. Not only in stature but in talent and accomplishment. You also have a wonderful sense of humor. Your videos are top notch.

[@enduropeteSD]

Cannot get enough Ben Cathro in my life. Another great vid!

[@jamesonhinkle3736]

@bencathro more of this please!

[@chrisbennett5796]

Great content, as always. It’s something I hadn’t thought about much before. It would be good to have Ben interview a bunch of XC riders on the same subject, as the other end of the off road spectrum. As they have to consider going uphill too, I wonder where they would find the sweet spot.

[@shaunschneeberger6301]

So i ride flat pedals and all my shoes have two distinctive tread or groove patterns in them from the studs. One on the ball of front of my foot and one just before the middle of my foot. Front pattern is from climbing and middle is from descending. Hence all these DH riders have there clips more to the middle you much more stable

[@michaelgoodwin593]

That road Biker cleat position comment made me chuckle

[@Columbian.sand.blasted.nostril]

😂 such a truthful youth remark . 100 percent would have done the same

[@Ry_Rides]

Sat here watching even though I run flats but happy supporting Cathro with views!

[@mattslack3525]

Foot to Ground clearance to prevent foot impacts is needed to accommodate suspension and tire compression also can dictate the need for cleats to be rearward; particularly for riders with larger feet, more technical terrain, and/or lower BB clearance or longer cranks. This applies to many MTB disciplines, not just DH. Nice vid.

[@richardaltman7468]

It would be interesting to hear from xc riders and the effect of the cleat position on pedaling dynamics.

[@ish474]

I just tried clips for the first time this year after 30 years of riding flats on all types of bikes. I tried slammed back at first, and I felt like I was fighting my pedals. I ended up more central but most importantly when I got it to where I have it it felt right, It allowed me to stop thinking about my feet and could start thinking about riding.

[@eezing140]

I think that’s the problem with clipless pedals, you don’t pay attention to your feet. With flats, you must ride through your feet in order to stay on the pedal, or your foot comes off. It forces better technique, IMO.

[@_Jake.From.Statefarm_]

@@eezing140 If you started riding flats and learn that technique it def transfers over, It's just a hell of a lot nicer to pull the bike up without any preload on certain things. I just switched to clips and I like the way the bike moves with me. Flats are def a must I'd say for anyone who needs to learn proper technique though.

[@rafaelalbertotorres8070]

As I have gotten older, I have moved the cleats back as keeping them forward felt like my Achilles tendon was getting overstretch, especially on landings.

[@tjb8841]

Exactly. DH if you are to close to your toes, you have more leverage in your Achilles/calf. Easy.

[@RoyHughes-tg9hh]

Yip, the further back the cleat is mounted on the shoe, the less the magnitude of force is inflicted on the Achilles tendon and calf muscle when subjected to the shock force of high impact landings. This is especially a problem with people with larger (longer feet), where tendon and carf muscle injuries are more prevalent. Moving the cleat rearward on clipless pedals definitely makes sense 👌

[@jacojojo42]

the wilhelm scream @1:30 was great!!

[@seanobyrne6572]

Great videos Ben. Very informative and illuminating.

[@jordanr8312]

Ben-O, God made you to do exactly what you are doing. You presenting and explaining anything mtn biking is always a great watch and full of good info. Sprinkle in that humor and it's great watching. Keep up the good work.

[@imnotgivingmynametoamachine683]

I don't have the patience to watch many 11 minute videos on anything and here I just watched a whole one on clipless pedal positions....and I ride flats....

[@user-yw1ij1qz2b]

Ben please see what you can uncover in the world of Enduro riders regarding cleats, love the content

[@peaslaker]

9:11 The 10g is just a 10x multiplier on your 94kgf. so 940kgf... not 100x. Your 94kg is already at 1g (i.e. 94 kilogram-force), so 10g is just 10x the amount. FWIW, 9221.4 Newtons (SI unit of force).

[@andresamson8859]

Dawm , you beat me to it. Was about to say the same thing

[@gibbo3783]

Same. Not sure how this error made it through post-production. Otherwise excellent vid! 😊

[@Svenmpa]

Yes, beat me to the comment on this one.

[@manuelhernandez1757]

Somebody paid attention in math class

[@drjohnson77]

Its not a linear force its a torque and therefore you have to multiply force by the moment arm. The longer cleat position changed the length of the moment arm and increased the forces on the calf.

[@therealnybbles]

Ben Cathro is the GOAT of illuminating MTB videos! 🎉

[@g.wilsondh8407]

I feel like I learned something today, while at the same time I was having a good laugh with the interviews! Hats off, again, Mr Lanky Man

[@kilobitti]

I used to have my cleats in the middle. In an enduro comp with longer stages, my calves were burning. Decided to slide the cleat further back just for a test, and never moved them forward. Then went to ride flats just to keep those bunny hops clean.

[@JohnB-lt2ou]

From an engineering/physics perspective, you're spot on. But! cyclists, regardless of type, are limited by biomechanical considerations! I confess, I am one of those very uptight X professional road sprinters! One of the reasons why sprinters position their cleats close to the ball of the foot is to engage the quad muscles. These muscles produce far more power over a short distance, than the glutes. The glutes will engage more, when the pedal is closer to the center of the foot. But will never produce the power, nor the directional transition of power, through the pedal stroke, as engagement of the quads. I realise I'm going down a dangerous rabbit hole, so my point is to the exclusion of a lot of other considerations! My "guess" as to why DH riders prefer to position their cleat in the middle of the peddle is because the ability to control your legs in a bidirectional manner, is better. Quality video, Ben. The world needs more, down to earth inquisitiveness....

[@pkundrat]

Other than adding an extra zero, right? :) (10g is 940kg, not 9400)

[@and2244rew]

I’ve hyperextended my ankles on big hits while running the cleat too far forward.

[@michaelwillis4528]

Danny Hart with the simplest explanation, its what we were taught when guiding in Whistler, and even on my road bike I run them as far back as they go.

[@hanslomo5431]

Great stuff. I am very interested in a video specifically regarding hellcat pros and crankbrothers mallet dh setup. A lot of pro dh riders use this setup yet there is little info on how they setup their cleats and SHIMS and pin height. What feel are they looking for etc. Ben touched on it with Dakota Norton but he's not running mallets.

[@mtbman1980]

it can be tricky with clipless trying to get the height of the cleat and pins to help when you want them to but not implead your foot from twisting to release the shoe from the pedal. I suspect that's why Dak does that to his shoes

[@stephengioacchini3946]

I find it very ironic to see this video when I was just considering this now. Forever, I have been riding with the cleat possitioned just behind the ball of my foot and also canted to be just inside from a lateral position. The reason was purely feel. It felt like the bast place. I am a road rider, trail rider, and in my younger days freerider/4 cross racer. In the past few years I have been riding a mix of clipped in vs flat pedals while riding with my son. (he's now 6 and a heck of a rider). But since I ride flats so much and work on skills in that vein I have been thinking of slidding those clips back a bit to still maintain the power for climbing while feeling a bit more agile. So,... this was a very timely video. Thanks for sharing.

[@1scurtis]

Can we address the weakness of the 510 cleat nuts?

[@CantTalkImRiding]

Dang. That force difference between the positions really solidify my choice for a rearward cleat position.

[@stirfrybry1]

I never felt safe thinking about being attached to my bike in the event of a crash. I rode flat pedals and had a great time racing. Not sure where the clipless pedals were supposed to improve my riding. Yhis is the late 90s I;m talking about. It's crazy that it's still a thing the rider has to decide. What a classic debate!

[@mtbrawvideo98]

I have the same setup, hellcat pro and saint spd I’m going crazy because the cleats pop out too much, so the sole do not make full contact with the pedal and it feel so unstable… Is it normal? First time with spd and five ten Help pls 😢🆘

[@bobhopeandnohope300]

How about the effect of offsetting the cleat from the centre line (side to side)? Or the angle of the cleat? So much to cover.

[@burkaanc]

was recently watching a bike fit video for road bikes it also suggested cleat position towards back

[@ianiscaratti4924]

as a road and track cyclist i can tell you that on the track they ride it all the way back and even combine modern clip pedals with og straps. I heard climbers have the cleats forward but not us track and crit cyclistst.

[@dachuckster2]

A decent convincing piece of advertising. I’m straight off to buy some Helcats. Only Cathro could do that and get me to the end of the video.

[@TimR123]

Good stuff well discussed. I’m wondering about the plates many had between the cleat and the sole. I’ve never seen one. What does it do? Where do they come from?

[@a.r.8850]

They are needed with crank brothers pedals as they damage the sole if used without shield. I have them on my SPD as well as a spacer, because otherwise i have to fight rubber contact friction when clipping in/out

[@zelicanth1927]

I have always bounced between flats and clips, but I have never found that I can get the cleats far enough towards the cranks, its always felt like I'm hanging half my foot over the outside edge of the pedal and I seem to be the only person I have ever met with that option, so i'd be interested to see if anyone else here has the same issue?

[@jokermtb]

Bowlegged …..it’s much more a problem

[@daishiko8830]

What is the cleats in the first person

[@tychoMX]

Even us roadies are moving the cleats backwards :) Different reasons, but in general it's more stable, reduces "hot foot" (not a concern for MTB?!) and in many ways reduces the load on calves - which often is not one of the strongest muscles). I think in general only the people that try to put their cleats way forward are the ones that like "ankling", pedaling with a lot of flex in the foot. And from what I recall, that's mostly for very high cadences and somewhat lower peak torque - some trackies, maybe TTs and climbing.

[@DZig]

Haven't switched to clips yet, but I ride flats with the ball of foot forward of the axle, and feel much more planted that way.

[@mogulmayhem]

Any plans to bring the slip on Five Ten back? It's absolutely perfect for city riding.

[@gazyates5228]

Very Interesting Great Vid , I have been a flat pedal guy forever, born from my BMX days Long Long ago , I was thinking of trying clips but I only Ride Trail on my MTB is there any benefit or is it just preference ??? I can see the benefit For DH .

[@marcoghillani]

Very interesting argument and great video 😄. BTW: what about ankle "suspension" on an aggressive HT (DH and enduro)? Assuming the fact that the rear cleats position increases the control and stability, do you suggest to discard the full rear cleats or can be an option without risks? Thanks for the great work Ben 👍🏼

[@InfectAion]

Really love Ben he's just amazing 💯

[@amir_mtb]

Wow! That actually made sense :) Thanks Ben!!

[@tekjim]

Great analysis from Cathro as usual! Two things though: 1. Is there a typo where you stated both cleat positions are 30mm distance to achilles heel? 2. Leatt 4.0 clipless has more rearward cleat option than the Hellcats. The most of any shoe I have found.

[@emc3065]

The 30mm was the distance of anchor point of the Achilles to the base of heel. This It's the same for both as it's the same foot.

[@tekjim]

@@emc3065 thanks for clarifying! it was a head scratcher for me !

[@RPaton]

Rafaella "Roxy" Wieschollek. Roxy Ride and Inspire has some thoughts on foot position and flat pedals.

[@SaleenS351R]

If I go back to clips, I’m being drawn towards a shoe that will have the most rearward adjustment, as I want my foot to be close to the position it is on flats

[@jaykellett7693]

I matched my cleats to the overal wear of my fiveten freerides and noticed I was about 66% slammed to the back but not all the way. looking at the shoe and eye-balling it I would have instantly slammed them, glad I checked!

[@middleagedmtber2164]

I have a silly question.Is there beginner cleats ,as I’ve always went flats .Would love to try them .

[@jkkambs]

Shimano makes a cleat that is very easy to get out of compared to the normal cleat. It had a capital M on the cleat. I love them as I can unclip almost as easily as if I were on a flat pedal but I also feel very connected to my bike when I’m clipped in.

[@SylvainProov]

Thibault Laly 🤘btw what's the model at 4:52 ?

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

Good data review 👍🏻👍🏻

[@energ8t]

Pedal position will vary based on type of riding. I don’t slam my clips back because I have to actually pedal up hills, unlike DH pros.

[@8FunGuy8]

Ok, now a video on this topic with trail riding.

[@federicomarmolejo1952]

informative video, that was great!!!

[@timhasgoneriding]

My forward foot (left) is all the way back and my back foot is closer to the front. I ride Enduro and my back foot pushes off at the start gate. It clips in easier with the cleat set forward.

[@pepeanza6187]

What about the ones that do type of XC trail light enduro? I try the most rear position but in very steep climbs feel like my feet is in the wrong spot

[@pkundrat]

Would be also interesting to talk to Rachel Atherton about where she likes her cleats positioned - whether the leverage had any impact on her breaking achilles tendon.

[@djzatorze]

Whoa, I thought the interviews would show some variation in that. But all clips down? Sheesh!

[@Yaxtroma]

You really did your research, im impressed!

[@MikeyV10]

Mountain biking since 94' with mallet cleats as far back as they go, it just feels right. Having cleats forward puts you off balance like you're on your toes.

[@petoo0o0]

Amazing content👍. What about the enduro riders, would be great to see if there is any difference between DH and Enduro.

[@herethere2518]

Seems very specific to downhill riders. Should probably point this out! How about an XC perspective?

[@utahjohn5480]

It's nice to see the MFGs FINALLY listening. When I rode clipped in, I had to modify the shoes (Shimano ME7) to allow the cleat to move back a full inch over what the slots allowed out of the box. Was ridiculous. Eventually went to flats, and no longer an issue.

[@Martyboy84]

Big Cathro is the man.

[@JackMott]

Fantastic video! Thank you.

[@Adoogin]

Any idea where Rachael Atherton keeps her cleats? I'd say that would be a relative question to be asked in a most sensitive way.

[@superyamagucci]

I use extension plates to mount my cleats 35mm behind the pivot point of my ankle.

[@aleixbartomeus4135]

Race the bmx with the cleats also all the way back, feels better than all the way front, in the mtb also all the way back feels great and less exhausting as the "calf raise" mention by Hart

[@stirfrybry1]

My riding shoes developed pitting about the very back of my arch from my foot position on downhill racing courses. An effective clipping mechanism should slide the foot backward in descents and move the foot forward for climbing. I would love to design it but I'm a carpenter. LOL Edit: Spring load the cleat to move to furthest back position unless climbing pressure demands a change. simple math with springs and such. so when you sprint the mechanism wants to be bunched at the toe and when you ease off it wants to return back to 2'3 rds of the way to the heal. Make it tunable so riders can set the range of movement they want or even lock out any movement. I hope some engineer reads this. It would be so amazing from my perspective. When your ankle doesn't need to move and the bike is taking all the hit it's a much better ride from my expert riding opinion. Only when you want the extra leverage for climbing does the foot position matter double edit: do you make the slide in the shoe or the pedal? Shoe might win if I'm testing ideas

[@Zzz-lz9kb]

Where does Sam Hill position his cleats?

[@bikesense3867]

Wait, does anyone run their cleats forward? Also why I’m running Hellcat Pros

[@tonyrobinson1623]

I actually dremel my slots about 1/4" further back. I like to have my cleats about where they would be on flats.

[@johncast9565]

Riding the cleat far forward, makes the Soleus Muscle come into play more. The Soleus contracts and lowers the toes. You dont want that in DH you want to lower your heels, which in turn as you mentioned in the video makes your calf act like suspension.

[@johnkim1043]

Still funny. Quirky and informative. But your production value has matured palpably. I like the changes.

[@bike314]

Why don't shoe manufacturers allow for a wider (more rearward) cleat placement??? Well you answered that at the end of the video

[@stevemendelson4711]

This was great knowledge and somthing I was actually thing about lately to improve my riding !! Thanks Ban you the man!!

[@endurorider974]

The end of the video just killed me 🤣🤣🤣

[@2dcutout]

I ride & coach enduro/dh and I run my cleats all the way back because... I can clip in faster if I unclip a foot, than I can in any other cleat position. Genuinely, that is how I arrived at the more rearward position (and I experimented) - riding really rough terrain, if I pulled a foot out for some reason I wanted to give myself the best chance of getting my foot back in without slowing down or fumbling. /\ /\ not sure why more riders don't use this logic. Using Leatt 6.0 shoes currently with old Shimano DX pedals.

[@SuperGarden78]

More forward on a roadbike save my knee joints, but if I’m not pedaling and want balance over the bottom bracket I want them farther back.

[@fredphillips5635]

The % difference in travel and force are the same if you calculate it right. I've always opted for more proactive travel, particularly since it's faster responding than your thighs. that was a head scratcher to see so many pros off the back.

[@paranoidponcho]

A comparison with the enduro clips would be interesting.

[@0T13]

excellent video

[@davidspear6682]

Does this mean that five ten is putting their cleat slots too far forward?

[@shafiqjan1474]

Get flats and change foot positions for climbing and descending. It's easy and I've been doing it for close to 3 decades. It works

[@kingflynxi9420]

This is about the pros

[@JasonWD]

Oh, guess what. I’ve been riding spds for more than 30 years and no one really cares. 😂

[@MrSupermugen]

My shoes won't let that happen, after a few rides they have worn in and you have to have foot in same spot. Or it feels all f'd up

[@jimwing.2178]

Same. It seems like the intelligent way for open-minded riders to pedal.

[@BigBrainParty]

So the real question is... Why don't shoe manufacturers bring the channels even further back? Surely if most riders are at the limit, why not explore beyond this artificial limit?

[@FlowBran]

What about Enduro biking?

[@JC-zf6sx]

Dear Five Ten, could you please release the hellcat pro clipless shoe in WHITE for purchase? I have wanted a pair every since they were introduced 3 years ago. I'll pay extra. I just really, really want a pair. Thanks for your time.

[@coconutsonwheelsmtb]

Leatt enduro 4 had the best cleat channel for enduro riding.

[@Xabeno]

What I’m hearing is flats FTW

[@calebmccalla4715]

Really wish y’all would bring back those white clipless shoes.. I think they were hellcats. Basically release the ones that Dak wears.

[@razorree]

with 10g forces are only 10x higher, NOT 100 times higher... (so 940kg and 1425kg respectively)

[@mojo3398]

ben cathro is a crazy nerd... i love it!

[@xy9ine]

which leads to an obvious question - if a good percentage of riders are running full slammed back (and near no one uses full forward), shouldn't the cleat channels be positioned further back?

[@fiveten]

If you head to 10.43 in the film Ben answers question directly

[@MRhankylolka]

We need a wider shoes fiveten 😢

[@bubbysbikes]

Try Race Concepts they have a better selection of wider shoes.

[@freezer4230]

First and forevermore shalt thou slam thine cleat full back. Full slammed shall be the cleat position thou shalt use, and the position of the cleat shalt be well slammed. Thou shalt not use use the middle and forward is right out.

[@millertyme-cz9tv]

ben. you should adress the fact that as a tall rider with a large foot. the futher back you run your cleat the harder it is to clip out.your toe will bind with the crank in most positions

[@rolandczechowski9812]

As someone who dabbles with his MTB simply due to time (I skate, surf, road cycle for fitness)....I didn't know that Enduro and DH riders even clipped in?? No wonder they look so bloody glued to the bikes! I thought it was just good technique of driving their weight down through to the pedals! 🤯 I'm confused..lol

[@JB50713]

Actually, very interesting Ben

[@fpeter01]

I had to abandon the clipless pedals when I got a trail bike. Being physically attached to the pedals midair is horrifying.

[@djzatorze]

you are more attached with your hands to the bars than with feet and properly set clips

[@toddstiers3814]

Ben has the right answer on positioning- ride flats, you will find your feet further back than on clips. More power, calves are weak!

[@toddstiers3814]

So give me a 5-10 clipless in the middle please