Why We Love The Innocents (1961)

[@jomurphy1654]

I'm 65 and saw this at boarding school when I was 14 - never been so terrified. I don't think of it as a horror film but a brilliant ghost story...the song Flora sings has always stayed with me, as has the sound of Miss Jessel calling Flora's name (almost more chilling than her actual appearance across the lake....) There are many subtle images which horror stories never achieve, like the tears of the ghost on the blackboard, the figure passing across the landing curtains, the ballerina music box...and the falling petals. A masterpiece.

[@riccardoalcaro8483]

The movie’s a masterpiece. Best horror ever made, it’s no exaggeration

[@robinbroad8760]

The completely capturing ghost story Turn of the Screw And the best film interpretation

[@robinbroad8760]

Sadly, the endless rationalising, or analysis, misses the complete submission to the mystery and exquisite ambivalence of James writing. His work to ensnare us beautifully, continually being missed by easy logic

[@marcuspd7502]

Definitely my favorite horror film. I always assumed the ghosts were real just because of how Miles dies yelling Quint’s name and Quint holding up his hand to stop his heart. Also, Flora knows Miles is coming home before they get news of his expulsion from school.

[@BetterWithBob]

I choose to believe they're real too :)

[@marcuspd7502]

@@BetterWithBob I think parts of the other theories can also be true even if the ghosts are real. I think it’s also possible for the ghosts to exist but that the idea that Miss Giddens has sexual feelings for Miles and vice versa to still exist, too. The ghosts serve as a fuel for her increasing deviant feelings.

[@ShootMeMovieReviews]

I think the best approach is the 'both things are true' one. The ghosts are real. But also the protagonist is rife with repression issues that serve to escalate things. It's such a perfect work because it can be understood from various perspectives without contradiction.

[@Kjt853]

⁠​⁠@@ShootMeMovieReviewsI tend to agree with you. Part of the reason that many feel that the ghosts are manifestations of Miss Giddens’ sexual repression, I think, has to do with the way the part was cast in the movie. Deborah Kerr is approaching middle age, a spinster with little hope of ever marrying and having children of her own (her underlying pain at the beginning of the movie when she tells children’s uncle that she loves children is palpable). In the novella, however, Miss Giddens is only 20 years old; even by Victorian standards there’d still be time for her to find a husband and have a family of her own.

[@nataliedeshow768]

I remember seeing it as a child, scared me half to death!! Always one of my favorites, I have the DVD.

[@marisaelenenadiejamusiccom3974]

It’s definitely one of the most gorgeous films ever films, and also experimental.. in some parts. It’s just very modern, and it’s so pristine and so elegant.. I love it because it’s so subtle and it locks any digital affects is very subtle and it’s fear factor .. it’s not overkill like a lot of the films that they have today to try to excite you every moment with this bombastic music is very awful so this film is an absolute masterpiece in contrast to what they put out today for the most part I would say unless it’s not commercial.. this is a bona fide masterpiece one of the best films I’ve ever seen.. the script is impeccable. The acting is exquisite… it’s just perfect..

[@Kjt853]

As you mention toward the end, in the novella the governess is 20 years old, but in the film, she’s what would have been considered a spinster, past the age of marrying (unless, perhaps, to an elderly widower) and of having children of her own. I’ve sometimes wondered how people’s analyses of the film would differ if the character had been played by an actress in her early 20s. Also, interesting you should mention “The Haunting.” I’ve long felt that the two films would make a great double bill.

[@BetterWithBob]

Oh that's a fascinating point. I'd never considered that. And yes they'd be a great double bill 😅

[@Fontsman]

A brilliant film that scared me witless as a child. Still outstanding today. All the cast are exceptional.

[@BetterWithBob]

Well said :)

[@cmendoza9255]

My feelings exactly. Still my all time favorite.

[@robinbroad8760]

Henry James has said he wanted to capture the jaded the unsurprisiable, and for me succeeds incredibly. Though the film is more obvious than the novel. It's still wonderfully enthralling

[@RonRicho]

Your friend said this was the best horror film he'd ever seen and I can't disagree with that except I have never known where to place this film where genre is concerned. Horror film? Supernatural film? Psychological drama? Plain old ghost story? Maybe all of those things. All I know is I saw when it was first released and it's stayed with me all these years. Not many films can do that. Thanks for your great video on this important film.

[@conrad152]

Excellent review.

[@BetterWithBob]

Thank you 🙂

[@martyg11]

One thing that jarred with me watching the film was how Giddens comes up with the cure for the children’s ills out of nowhere. She has a theory of how to resolve the past trauma and thereby the haunting. Where did she get this? It occurred to me that it’s a tale about repression, and that her proposed intervention is a psychodynamic one of bringing the repressed memories to the surface. Freuds theory of repression came about in the late 19th century when James’ book was written. Maybe James used Giddens as a straw man for the theory to see how it might play out dramatically as a ghost story. Remember also that the film was released shortly after Psycho which drew heavily on psychological theories for its plot.

[@BetterWithBob]

That's an interesting point, although the sexual repression came about more in the stage adaptation that the film takes cues from. And in the play, the ghosts are definitely real. Notably in the book, the ghosts themselves are never said to be evil; the governess just assumes they are.

[@suzanne6441]

Henry James' brother William was the renown psychologist. I'd love to see their childhoods that triggered such interest and insight.

[@shaiajean1]

Without a doubt my favorite horror film.

[@BetterWithBob]

One of mine too :)

[@piercemoen2269]

First became familiar with this film due to a Kate Bush song based on the kiss scene. Absolutely chilling, and I greatly appreciate this analysis to better appreciate both the film and song :)

[@BetterWithBob]

Ah yes I read she was a big fan too :)

[@mpete42]

I also love the KB song, and I have dropped a longer comment on this, I couldn't resist. Have you seen the song set to scenes from the movie? I think it works perfectly. Cheers, Pete

[@manuelrengeldiaz]

what's the name of the song?????

[@kiraa-05]

@@manuelrengeldiaz The Infant Kiss!!

[@anthonynegron1374]

🤔 I've never seen this movie. Would love to see it in a big old movie theater in maybe like somewhere in NYC. I love spooky demons/ghosts movies.

[@justyouraveragemutantblood2185]

Personally I think it’s a story of two abused children acting weird because of there neglect and trauma, acting out because they want attention or don’t want to be “boring”, and a lady not knowing how to handle it so she assumes it’s demons. Reminds me a lot of the story of changlings, originally believed to be fairies switched with babys and more likely are actually just kids with autism. I do believe the place is actually haunted but the ghost dont really do anything, they are just more devices to get miss gibbens paranoia high.

[@jasklisto]

Great analysis! This is exactly what I was looking for

[@BetterWithBob]

Well thank you very much :) One of my all time favourite videos to make :)

[@teresataylor2916]

Great analysis! But I never agreed with the pedophile angle. I lean toward believing that Bly is actually haunted, and Quint is possessing Myles. This explains the boy's expulsion from school. At times, like in the kiss scene, Quint is acting through the boy. The governess is startled in these moments, sensing something is amiss.

[@geoffreychiara938]

I totally agree with your assessment

[@mpete42]

A very nice film appraisal, I also really like the film, it doesn't completely fit with the Horror genre, it is difficult to put in any single box, you need a venn diagram, it's definitely in the thought provoking set on the diagram. I do love the cinematography, those wide scenes really are fantastic. As Piece Moen mentioned in an earlier comment this film has the accolade of inspiring a fabulous Kate Bush song, she apparently was quite taken with the film. The song is called "The Infant Kiss", (from the album "Never For Ever") it is written from Miss Giddens perspective and the song captures her very well. I'll drop the song lyrics below. To hear the song you can listen to it from the official "KateBushMusic" channel but in 1984 a young man with film ambitions cut some 2.5 minutes of suitable scenes from the "The Innocents" and set these to the Kate Bush song. He managed this task so well he got a call from Kate Bush herself to compliment him and she even asked him for some advice on making films and videos, I think this video is also really worth a view. If you want to see the fan made song video using the film search for "kate bush - the infant kiss (fan-made video) - widescreen version". I am very taken with this piece of art but it does have spoilers to the film so beware if you haven't yet watched "The Innocents". Here are the Kate Bush lyrics: "The Infant Kiss" I say good night-night I tuck him in tight But things are not right What is this? An infant kiss That sends my body tingling? I've never fallen for A little boy before No control Just a kid and just at school Back home they'd call me dirty His little hand is on my heart He's got me where it hurts me Knock, knock. Who's there in this baby? You know how to work me All my barriers are going It's starting to show Let go. Let go. Let go. I cannot sit and let Something happen I'll regret Ooh, he scares me! There's a man behind those eyes I catch him when I'm bending Ooh, how he frightens me When they whisper privately ("Don't Let Go!") Windy-wailey blows me Words of caress on their lips That speak of adult love I want to smack but I hold back. I only want to touch But I must stay and find a way To stop before it gets too much! All my barriers are going It's starting to show Let go. Let go. Let go. (Don't let go!)

[@NeurosenkavalierEmilSinclair]

Honestly, I really liked this movie but the original novella "Turn of the screw" is even better. They did great with creating ambiguity in the movie, but James' text was perfectly ambiguous; a great genre work but at the same time he references and parodies so much of the popular literature of his time. You can read it again and again with different aspects you focus on and you wi discover new details or perspectives in your 20th readthrough. Like I said - the movie is great! But the text will be so much deeper, no matter how good a regisseur or script writer interprets it.

[@BartholomewSmutz]

Comparing a book to a movie is like comparing a painting to a sculpture. Two very different art forms.

[@JoeOConnellAllNew]

Miss Giddens describes "the indecent" Miss Jessel as a "woman dressed in black." Miss Giddens spends most of the movie in bright white frocks, but as the film progresses, she wears darker clothes... until the ending she's dressed all in black.

[@BetterWithBob]

and the dress she's wearing in the ending even resembles Miss Jessel's :D

[@justdan9264]

I notice that too. The attention to details!

[@oscarnewman1374]

@@BetterWithBob I wonder if she chose that dress in the hopes of getting the children to remark on how similar they look

[@poetcomic1]

Co-writer Truman Capote says the ambiguity was intentional but the ghosts were real.

[@BetterWithBob]

Ooh that's interesting. I'd agree with his perspective.

[@gracenurse3365]

How do we know it wasn’t Quint or Jessel speaking THROUGH Capote, tho ? ! ?

[@poetcomic1]

@@gracenurse3365 Do you work in a pretzel factory?

[@mobiuspaw494]

Great find on KZbin. Beautiful in black & white. Disturbing and full of ambiguity.

[@oscarnewman1374]

personally I always felt this story is what coraline must have been like from the parents perspective

[@srk54989]

Love this movie 😍

[@BetterWithBob]

it's amazing :D

[@robinbroad8760]

The only ghost story, and the Innocents the best adaption

[@shahbazsheikh3545]

Pretty sure Ms. Giddens would have been a flat earther today.

[@BetterWithBob]

Now THAT is a take lol

[@beautifulvoidaudio]

Yes, and the ghosts could be real. Therefore, the earth could be flat? Well, actually, it is. Funny enough.

[@fitzytail896]

So this is where Netflix The Haunting at Bly Manor came from

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah and I believe Mike Flanagan said this was one of his favourite films 🙂 Dani's last name Clayton comes from Jack Clayton, who directed this 🙂

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

I would of liked Deborah Kerr as a 12 year old boy. Great film. It`s all in her

[@TimelordUK]

Makes me think of the PS2 horror game 'Haunting Ground'

[@BetterWithBob]

Ooh I never played

[@TimelordUK]

@@BetterWithBob It's set in a big sprawling gothic house like this one

[@neel3297]

Not all accurate with respect to the relationship between Giddens and Miles. There was just one lens used while analyzing the movie. I feel she was indeed trying to save both of the children. Her actions were too blunt and crude. In the end when she realizes that the boy is dead, she thinks to revive the boy by giving him what he desired irrespective of whether Quint helps to bring the boy back or the love the boy had towards her.

[@eternalkino34]

😭😭😭

[@robinbroad8760]

The original film used subliminal messages. I remember the audience was silent for a while

[@ahsanjubaid2799]

That's all great but you do realize we came here to understand whether the lady is the crazy one or the children are. It cannot be both of course because that way it become pointless. If you love it so much, you should have figured it out who is the 'crazy' one. Regardless, that's the big question because it cannot be all of them. Do let me know if you ever realize it !!

[@BetterWithBob]

Oh I personally believe Miss Giddens is seeing ghosts but I can see the evidence for why she's going bonkers too.

[@ahsanjubaid2799]

Yes there is a sexual repression theme and I understand she lived in a very small house and her father was a strict personnel. But how can we say she was sextually repressed? And as I realize more, she sees ghost because first she heard them upon arrival so she has a problem. Then she saw that without the face. She saw the face after seeing the picture and apparently the children and the housekeeper don't see the ghost. But as u said, what could be the reason why she is going bonkers, seeing things? Why was the child actually expelled from the school? You know this is Martin Scorsese's favorite horror film? Anyways, hope your understanding makes this one hell of a masterpiece more comprehensive, logical, and oh so mesmerising. Thanks again for the great editing in the video.

[@shaiajean1]

The ambiguity is intentional. We cannot ever definitively know what is real and imagined.

[@ahsanjubaid2799]

@@shaiajean1 Nope I figured it out later on. The lady is the crazy one. Nothing wrong with the children. Also think about the name of the film. The Innocents. The children are generally considered as innocents. That's how the title of the film came to be. But obviously throughout the film you will realize the lady is the crazy one.