Bias in the Sources for Heathenry? Misunderstood Myths of Ancient Norse Records

[@irelegion9766]

I understand people's desires to have a direct heathen source. But I also think, even through the bias, what we have is phenomenal. There's something more accessible and useable when you have to do a little reading and make up your own damn mind. I mean, how many stories and poems can you recite? Skalds may have remembered many, but most likely the average person remembered the few that resonated most with them, and therein found their faith. That's comforting, in a way.

[@GMSquared]

Precisely! I am really big into the personal spiritual journey. It is something that nobody else can redefine, it is yours.

[@AxiomofDiscord]

I wonder how many over the centuries were just made up on the spot and forgotten.

[@K_E_Robin]

I'm very happy that when your mention the Sámi, you actually take the time to explain the oppression dealt to my ancestors by christian monarchies and for five centuries of horrors still haunts Sámi people. I'm a direct descendant of the last noaiddi of Jokkmokk/Jåhkåmåhkke(Julevsámigiella), for which both stories within my family(on my fathers side) and the horrors mentioned above have had an enormous impact on me, my upbringing(born and raised outside of Sápmi) and especially now as an adult. For I am today an animist-agnostic, but I'm questioning that position. The remains of the Old Sámi religion is even less preserved than that of the Old Norse/Germanic pre-chistian religion and the research about the noaiddi isn't significant enough(nothing less then due to the colonialist systems that still lingers on). That's why I asked the question about how much similarities there are between seiðr and the sacred landmarks/objects used by the noaiddi for worship. I'm very interested to get to know how much does the different crafts/traditions shared from each other, that is prevelant in the sources about the late roman to early medieval Scandinavia? I will discuss with both heathens in my own town and my northward relatives(may not be fully without of family biases) for opinions about the question. P.S. I loved the video about Bragi, because I'm very fond of feasting, art, passion and poetry deities of all kinds. Artistic and social fullfilment is very important to me and inspiration is for me an almost "divine force" in a way.

[@chainsawman10]

Odin as a crazy old wizard actually fits with him when he is in disguise

[@OceanKeltoi]

Exactly why I used the... uh... kenning.

[@chainsawman10]

@@OceanKeltoi it did make me chuckle

[@emiliobustamante2401]

And when he’s not, honestly

[@fredriks5090]

Odin reads like a crazy celtic druid honestly. While Loki reads like a crazy sailor. And Hønir could be a crazy hunter-gather shaman local to scandinavia, but very vague due to the low population numbers prior to boats and celto-germanic expansion.

[@60sspider-man29]

@@fredriks5090 what exactly is crazy sailor? Like that sailor captain from the Simpson's?

[@Amy_the_Lizard]

For what it's worth I am that one Christian that constantly pisses off other Christians by pointing out that the bible's basically been mutilated to suit the needs of whoever had the power to do so so many times that it should be regarded with an entire bucket of salt. One of the things I highly respect about my pagan friends is their willingness to admit that their source material's full of biases. If more Christians were willing to admit that to themselves, we'd probably all be better off for it

[@thenightqueen0]

Preach! And I mean that legitimately! The thing about how to have a relation with gods, is being able to have to show that despite their power, you are willing to act more as an equal in the relationship. Rather than being a submissive yes man/woman.

[@sabinske8692]

I am the same way!

[@KingofAwesomness14]

ya, this is a thing!

[@mirandagoldstine8548]

Thank you. I was raised in a very open-minded household and I was raised to understand that you need evidence to back up a claim so I don’t like it when people (fundamentalists) claim that everything that happened in the Bible is true and that we need to follow it because the evidence we have mostly says otherwise. I’ll admit that unfortunately the source material for neo-druids are rife with a Roman bias. I mean we don’t have any surviving documents written by Celts and the surviving material we do have on the druids depicts them as being below the Romans which is a shame. Also there are Celtic pantheons missing from written records such as the pantheon of the Celts of what’s now Austria. I have checked and so far I have found no mention of the deities the Celts of Austria honored and worshiped.

[@DRYeisleysCreations]

The "Mutiliation" of the Bible didn't really start happening until the past century, you know, when people with the mindset such as yourself that the Bible had been 'changed' somehow. They claim to be going back to the oldest source texts but, they interpret the texts so differently.

[@riverrain4031]

Coming from a background of many years of Pentecostal Christianianity. I definitely brought some of these biases to my faith in the Norse Deities. Possibly the most problematic was my internalised thoughts that if you don’t do everything correctly that you move further away from the Gods and that only their forgiveness could bring me back into relationship. I have found Ocean’s work has liberated me by showing the biases in the sources and my latent Christianisation. I now approach the gods differently and am so grateful. Thank you Ocean for your scholarship and explanations.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@MrLeadbutterfly People tend to forget that the ability to bicker & insult were regarded as social verbal .. artforms .. at one time. And Loki had a nack of calling out people's flaws and insulting their virtues as if they were their personal vices.

[@DRYeisleysCreations]

The Norse gods couldn't even save their people from being beaten by the God of the Bible in war. You want to serve these gods who could not defeat one lone God?

[@GunnerBob92]

@@MrLeadbutterfly you do not need to forgive someone who has wronged you. If someone murders your son, why should you forgive them?

[@GunnerBob92]

@@DRYeisleysCreations ragnarok was predicted and in a way, the Christian invasion of Northern Europe is Ragnarok. Odin died in the peoples hearts and minds for hundreds of years. The Heathens wouldnt have lost if the Christians werent so deceitful. Heathens were welcoming of Christ, and many accepted Christ on the Heathen Pantheon before the forced conversion. Let's also not forget the "convert or die" mindset of Christians of the age, basically making Christianity at the time equal to ISIS

[@charlesgilarski6474]

@@GunnerBob92 Hel, a lot of christians still have the "convert or die" mindset. Not quite the same, but my Catholic, lesbian mother (yes I see the irony, no she doesn't) has told me "maybe I would have been a better mother if you believed in God." In many ways, Christians have not changed.

[@aalin5701]

Imagining all these old Christian dudes turning in their grave over how many people they've helped convert to Heathenry 🤣

[@OceanKeltoi]

oops

[@mirandagoldstine8548]

@@OceanKeltoi Woops indeed. But hey it’s great to be open to polytheistic religions. I wonder what that early Christians would’ve thought about Shinto and the multiple kami worshiped? They probably would’ve had the same reaction of ‘people straying from the path’.

[@prodigalson6166]

@@OceanKeltoi Many would be surprised that the book of Galatians in the judeo-christian Bible gives us a glimpse of Norse paganism through The Eyes of Paul of Tarsus. It is the first instance of Christians equating Odin with Christ and even the Cross of Christ with Yggdrasil. The comparison makes sense when one perceives Christianity through the lens of animism, which is self-evident to be the original Christian philosophy, as Paul of Tarsus stated in Acts 17 "in God we live move and have our being." This of course is confirmed by many things that Jesus said such as "whatever you do to the least of these that you do to me." And the three laws Jesus gave to replace Mosaic law, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you; love God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul; love thy neighbor as thyself." At one point Paul expresses his relationship with the Galatians by comparing the Galatians to Odin and himself to Mimir by stating "...if it were possible you would have given your right eyes to me." With this it is eye-opening that Paul had already compared Odin to Christ, condemning a practice that some have theorized was done by the practitioners of the Seidr; the ordeal in which seers would hang themselves upside down from a tree; Paul of Tarsus seems to confirm this practice when he States "...do you not know anyone who hangs from a tree is condemned?" Meditating on this it seems that Paul was upset by the objectification, "idolatry" of focusing on material things by performing an imitation of Jesus crucifixion in lieu of performing an imitation of Odin on yggdrasil. I think Bruce Lee can sum up Paul's philosophy when he said "Do not look at the finger or you will miss all that Heavenly Glory." What else could a Christian be teaching other than Animism which would cause people who are effectively practicing Asatru to be amazed? Taking what Paul said on Mars Hill, in Acts 17, into consideration, it is evident that what we call Christianity Today is not Christianity at all. Contrary to the Christian perspective, as well as its methods, with follows Peter's philosophy of conversion as opposed to Paul's philosophy of philosophical dialogue ( it is evident that Peter and Paul were not fond of each other). Nonetheless, Christians would be appalled to realize that the true gospel is actually quite pagan; I could write a book on this subject. I think Paul of Tarsus and Jesus of Nazareth are the two most misquoted and taken out of context philosophers in history. Christianity looks for the kingdom of God in the afterlife, when the true message is that the kingdom of God is already here and all we need to do is follow God's law which is written in the fabric of nature: it is ironic that Christianity is guilty I've so much oppression and genocide when its original form gave rise to the concept of unalienable natural rights, which is known as Natural Law, Declarationism and Classical Liberalism: it truly is a miracle that Thomas Aquinas was not burnt at the stake for heresy for many of the things he said in Summa Theologica: Paul wrote extensively about freedom and the right of free agency, and that Christ is the element within nature that gives us these rights. Christ equals God's word equals God's law equals natural law as opposed to the laws of men. Very Pagan indeed. In closing, contrary to the Christians interpretation of the Doom and Gloom of Revelations, it is quite evident that the Book of Revelations predict the impact that the Roman Empire would have on the entire world; the Christians today think that the tribulation is near or just starting, when in truth it began with the birth of Augustus Caesar; we know this because the star of Caesar is referred to as wormwood. In essence the book of the Apocalypse isn't about the destruction of the world but about the fall of the spirit of the Roman Empire through the Awakening of the people among the nations of the Earth, in line with every one of those ancient Prophecies of the Awakening, which has been whispered through the genetic memory of every human being who honors their ancestors. Be at peace for the Christians as we know them today will have a rude awakening when they realize they stand as goats, not lambs, before the Divine natural law, which they call the bema seat. In short, the whole of Christianity is apostate. When you want to find out the truth about a religion, don't talk to the idiot members of the fan club, talk to the god from which it came.🤗 Caesar has been the enemy and is still the enemy of us all, every tribe and every people. Hail the Gods All My Relations With love and honor from a mestizo Apache-Viking and Native America ✌🦅🌲🇺🇸

[@prodigalson6166]

@@mirandagoldstine8548 early Christians believed in animism, quite Pagan in their philosophy as opposed to the fake Christianity we have today. Please read my response on this thread. There is a whole lot more juicy stuff that I have learned through research and the seidr.

[@benjamincompton9767]

I dont read it like that, think of it this way, christian scholar writing on a collection of stories from someone else's ethnicity/culture. Although he is enamoured enough with the norse culture to write about it, how enamoured can he sound if he intends to keep his career. Maybe he endorses an already popularised belief that the pagans are practitioners of black magic that pray to wizards and sorcerer's, cementing him as a forward thinking christian, and thoroughly "one of us".

[@luayfoz4539]

Im a converted muslim from the Netherlands (frisia) but i love stories about Vikings and their habits & beliefs. I love how you explain things ♥️

[@aedanmacgabrain7251]

"the historical documents serve not as the whole truth but as a window into the past that includes truths as told through the lenses of the dominant culture at the time," call that Critical Norse Theory

[@natasjacecilieveggerby7509]

Hi, danish person here :) Saxo's bias was always explained to me as being a mixture of him being a bishop and his wishes to please his benefactor, the king (i believe it was one of the Valdemars), who was very christian and went on crusades to spread christianity and defeat the heathens to the east

[@ai-chan5545]

The way the Romans viewed the Germanic tribes reminds me of the way the Spanish conquistadors viewed the peoples of the territories they invaded. In my land there were aborigines who had no access to metal and lived like in the Palaeolithic. But they had a culture, a worldview, gods, a special writing system and more... they were no less than their conquerors.

[@mirandagoldstine8548]

@Stirgid Lanathiel Exactly.

[@DRYeisleysCreations]

@Stirgid Lanathiel The natives killed people to appease their gods. The conquistadors killed people to appease their lust of gold.

[@leifkjnny5424]

They were humans and lived as humans do. Good and bad.

[@johnpoole3871]

Most of the Germanic tribes the Romans encountered were invading the Roman Empire, not the other way around. That seems like a key difference.

[@diamondflaw]

I had to chuckle at Noah in a Norse setting.... I just imagine him trying to explain to a bunch of old salts that only this one boat could survive the biblical flood.

[@emiliobustamante2401]

I think the bigger issue would be those old salts trying convince Noah that maybe that god that is threatening to kill every person in the world is maybe not super worth worshiping. I mean, I know Thor could be a little bit... difficult... to deal with, and would not be surprised if old Norse people did associate bad weather with Thor and Freyr being angry with them but... man, Genesis is really intense

[@krispalermo8133]

@@emiliobustamante2401 Women get angry and throw things at their husbands. Some thunder storms with a lot of noise and barely any rain or lightning was Thor just yelling back at his wife. All bark & no bite.

[@badluckrabbit]

old salts: "I dunno Noah, we make pretty good boats here in the North"

[@Overlord99762]

Won't survive without Njörðr's blessing

[@Goodman_Ace]

I can't state how important this group (Ocean, Wolf, Beo, etc) has become to me. Online heathenry is, let's just say, a bit woo-ey, and y'all are pillars of decency and integrity.

[@shelltowee8629]

No doubt, if it's not a bunch of complete retards there're NAZIS. Jackson Crawfords channel is a dandy as well, not really a Hethean channel but he's a college professor who specializes in Norse/heathen history. He puts out some really good information.

[@lysanamcmillan7972]

@@shelltowee8629 Using that R-word as an insult is really not cool. It's actively harmful to people who you likely don't intend to hurt when you use it. Please think about that.

[@shelltowee8629]

@@lysanamcmillan7972 so I have to self-sensor cause your sensitive, what happened to sticks and stones break your bones but words can never hurt you, how about ya quit being so God damn sensitive and focus that attention on a real issue.

[@CrypticArchives]

We literally believe that there are deities who have been in existence since the beginning of existence itself who regularly interact with human beings and do really unbelievable things like own belts that increase strength and ride around on carts guided by massive cats. The entire concept is “woo-ey”. Unless you’re a boring materialist atheopagan (basically a hippie) then you, just like everyone else who believes in the northern tradition are cooks crazies and lunatics. Be proud of the insanity that inhabits your mind and enriches your life

[@CrypticArchives]

@@lysanamcmillan7972 does your entire life exist surrounded by padded walls?

[@Bardok_Rouge]

tacitus should be happy those barbarians were so lazy, or he might not be a roman historian

[@therealravenanderson]

Definitely nice to cover the various ways that bias can effect what we have, good job as always

[@ragingwitch8875]

I just finished the prose edda two days ago and have been wondering what other biases I should be aware of going forward in reading. Since bias exists in everything it's important to be aware of the author and time period. It's a bit different than the biases to watch out for while reading research materials produced more recently. Having no background whatsoever in this time period at all this video is so so helpful. Great content as always Ocean

[@pedrobranco609]

I would just like to thank you for creating this channel and being a voice for reason. Your videos have been of great help to me in understanding my beliefs. I've been a Pagan since college but never really explored much, you could say i was half in the broom closet.

[@anthonyhayes1267]

The instant you said "historical documents" my brain immediately went to Galaxy Quest.

[@OceanKeltoi]

By historical documents, I mean these tv shows I watched.

[@lizabethhampton4537]

I see you are a person of culture.

[@Rhaenarys]

"Those poor people stuck on that island...."

[@MattyJames1]

There are a few things about the Poetic Edda that you missed out that I think could be relevant for someone considering it's bias - 1) The Poetic Edda poems show evidence of being written or composed at different times - some are older than others (and perhaps more reliable?). Second, it is much harder for poetry to "evolve" than for prose (in poems the words are in a set format, must obey alliteration rules e.t.c.), so there is less ability for the Poetic Edda poems to change over time than there would be in a prose writing. These two facts strengthen the Poetic Edda as a source even if there is still some bias.

[@elijahjohnson215]

As a Christian who struggled with doubts I appreciate and admire this mans careful thought as well as his passion in his faith. Although we do not agree on everything, I greatly appreciate you being willing to share and elaborate on your faith. Best of luck to you and your walk.

[@chrish4309]

There is one thing about Tacitus which you didn't bring up, which is actually that Tacitus, not having any first hand knowledge of the region, is also likely to have invented some of the names and toponyms. This was discussed in some recent monographs.

[@natasham.8879]

Someone recently made a point to me that was really impactful and it's coloring how I view this video, so I thought I'd share. They pointed out that the Roman Catholic Church isn't actually about Christianity, it's about the Roman Empire. The Romans killed most of the leaders of the early church. They then took "christianity", nationalized it, and utilized it as a weapon to conquer the rest of Europe and much of the known world. They use the same techniques but instead of an army of soldiers they use an army of bishops. They seek to "romanize" or "christianize" by destroying local cultures, appropriating some of the traditions to ease resistance, and kill anyone who refuses to assimilate by way of things like residential schools. The Roman Empire still exists and the United States is central to that.

[@Sewblon]

Emperor Constantine did tell the Bishops to standardize their theology to unite his empire. But, the Roman Catholic Church long outlived the Roman Empire. Plus, I really don't see the argument that Christianity helped Rome expand. From the perspective of a conquered people, what is the difference between being invaded by followers of Jupiter and being invaded by followers of Jehovah? In both cases, the outcome is decided on the battle field, not in theological debates.

[@jackjohnson2309]

@@Sewblon Christianization helped expansion in the form of Christian institution. The resources and establishments that came along with nationalized Christianity largely created hegemony and stability in conquered/converted territories.

[@Sewblon]

@@jackjohnson2309 Could you give me an example of that?

[@jackjohnson2309]

@@Sewblon basically the entire christianization of the British/Celtic Isles. The modern UK and Ireland were largely made up of tons of tribal chieftains and petty kings at constant war for territory, influence, and wealth. “Laws” were largely nonexistent, and those that existed were really just social rules that didn’t really extend outside the immediate family/clan/tribe. As Christianity made its way through those territories, and those chieftains and kings became Christian, it became far less acceptable for a Christian king to war against a fellow Christian king, or for Christians in general to attack/steal from/otherwise injure or offend fellow Christians. You begin to see more cooperation and eventually centralization of power, churches and the clergy that work them spread throughout the Isles and advised/mediated disputes between leaders, and even small “kingdoms” that once had to fight to gain and retain wealth and resources to care for their people now had the entirety of the wealth and resources behind the Church to aid them as needed (similar to the way a modern US state can appeal to the federal government for aid, or a nation can appeal to NATO/UN for help they can’t provide themselves for one reason or another). So, all in all, you go from dozens or more lesser lords/kings/etc constantly fighting over everything, to fewer and fewer leaders who all become Christian to some extent or another, and those territories become fewer and fewer until they’ve all coalesced into the modern unified nations of England, Scotland, Ireland, etc.

[@jackjohnson2309]

@@Sewblon I hope that made some sense. Trying to whittle down HOURS of lectures on the subject into VERY brief cliff notes.

[@moxbel]

Can I just keep ONE darling?? Like, one tiny Havamal??

[@bigfootisjustreallyshy]

I was under the impression that the Poetic Edda is considered more authentic because the language in some of the poems is an archaic form of old norse that dates back to the 900s before Christianization.

[@Drakelich-1]

I feel like some of this perspective is from someone who's studied myths on Merlin. What we know of Merlin is very similar to Odin but with an emphasis "knowledge is dangerous."

[@thomashammel7633]

Thank you so much for talking about the situation of the Sami in the past and nowadays! It's rarely ever mentioned and often carefully ignored by nordic countries, who want to build themselves an image of virtuous and innocent nations who didn't take part in colonization. As you pointed out their situation is still precarious today so special credit to you for raising awareness!

[@urubutingaz5898]

I read "are the Eddas based" lol. The poetic Edda definitely is.

[@OceanKeltoi]

based af

[@BlackFlagHeathen]

Based and Heathenpilled

[@betterdays2006]

@@OceanKeltoi can I ask a question? If I have Scandinavian and Welsh with more Hispanic and native American blood can I still follow norse paganism? Can anyone try to follow the religion

[@alicelund147]

@@betterdays2006 Anyone can. Pre-Christian European religions (And even the old Sumerian religion) are often related and Asatru has Animism and Shamanism aspects as well; like many original beliefs all around the world. I think Native Americans would have related to a lot in Asatru. But the advantage to live in Scandinavia is that we have all the ancient holy places of worship, we have the old graves of our heathen ancestors back to the Stone Age, we have the rock carvings from the Bronze Age with the earliest pictures of our Gods. We have all the rune stones and we have the place-names themselves that still use our old Gods names for places. Like if you live in the suburb Västra Frölunda in the city Gothenburg you live where there was a Lund to Frö (Frölunda), a sacrificial holy grove to the God Freyr. And there is a ice hockey team with that name. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%B6lunda_HC (Now they are not allowed to have an Indian any more)

[@betterdays2006]

@@alicelund147 that's so stupid how is the logo so offensive lol. I'm sorry these younger generations are ruining everything. I feel like it's a symbol of cultural appreciation more than offensive

[@theStormWeaver]

"Gallic" is correct in this context, as meaning "of/in-relation-to Gaul" where "Gaelic" is "of/in-relation-to the Gaels" (the people of Ireland and, depending on the time period, some or all of Scotland).

[@mr.monster91666]

I really do want to find all the original Pagan sources but I don't find any problem with the books that you mentioned above I have them all and I enjoyed them

[@OceanKeltoi]

If you want sources written by pagans, I heavily suggest checking out philosophy written by the Greeks and Romans. The Gods are often discussed. Some examples would be Theogony by Hesiod and On the Nature of the Gods by Cicero.

[@mr.monster91666]

Thank you I will Research into those. I personally am not a Christian hater coming from a very Jewish background so I can enjoy many of those Christian Author books. My favorite being history of the Danes. One day I hope to get to sit and talk with you or one of your other real Heathen friends and have a really cool discussion Faith the Heathen way because your videos and Your Friends videos have helped me on my path so much

[@aaronstukey9517]

@@OceanKeltoi I am brand new to the channel. Always been interested in Heathenry and Norse Paganism so of course I love the content. Just curious if you have any suggestions for some podcasts to listen to that are geared towards Heathenry. Whether it be history, modern practice, etc. thank you for all your work man 🤘🏼

[@jamesowens6241]

So this served as exactly what I was looking for in regards to doing my "heathen homework". For those who struggle finding a way, thank you for making one.

[@RingoLoadagain]

Your videos are continually more well researched, more in-depth and more interesting than I anticipate when I click them. I have become quite a fan of your channel recently!

[@weirdandproudofit1]

I got a horrific ad before this video so the pun was desperately needed, even more than usual.

[@laurajarrell6187]

Ocean Keltoi, great. And when you were speaking of Rome during the time of Tacitus, it made me think of the US. I know others have famously made the same comparison, but it is scary, how easily people are duped. Dammit. I still want you to read my thing on power, you do 'dramatic' so beautifully! One of these times , I'll be able to limit my comment and put it in. Also, thankyou for the guidance away from that other channel, I should have looked in his previous loads. 👍🥰💞✌🎃

[@Anthro006]

Outstanding perspective and breakdown of historical sources and info! Nicely summed and a well needed caveat emptor for all religious seekers!

[@heathermauldin4951]

I've really been getting into Irish Paganism via native Irish Pagans. What I'm finding is that they have a lot the same biases in their myths. Their gods are more like heroes than spiritual beings, or hell, maybe that's how early Irish Celts viewed their gods. Irish Pagans have kinda had to piecemeal their spiritual mechanisms the way Germanic Pagans have had to do. Saxo... the way writes makes me think of Tolkien.

[@mirandagoldstine8548]

Too true. It gets worse when you want to worship the Celtic pantheon of Austria because there’s no mention of the deities worshiped by the tribes. Also Tolkien was inspired by the Eddas partially for his writings.

[@marcrhodes-taylor5347]

very good video tonight, it makes some good points and gives you food for thought, i will never look at sources in quite the same way again and this is justifiable

[@wumbo2857]

great video, was NOT ready for the vaporwave end credits, loved it

[@realherbalism1017]

I was hooked by the "was odin just a wizard" tag but after watching it for several minutes, well, you know your own video

[@eclipsedbadger]

I still need to get my hands on the Eddas, so this was a good warning when I finally get them. One of the many things I had to learn when I got into any mythology or folklore is that its going to get a lil bit of bleach on it. Odin being your Local Old Man fits on his disguises of course, a wise old wizard man should do the trick. Local Old Man only though, he is not Florida Person (Loki)

[@cliffordbrown3332]

I have so much to say about this but I am a literal cave man as far as the net is concerned I will say as a heathen/pagan I love what you are doing keep spreading the knowledge Skol little Brother!

[@beitgorski7296]

Thank you for continuing to provide a delicious contextualization to these sources- I found your take on Tacitus particularly satisfying

[@TheProdigiousBlue]

Well, the thought of Odin as a wizard, Merlin comes to mind for me. They share many favorable attributes.

[@GhillieObserver]

So I have an idea for a topic to talk about. Love and marriage in norse polytheism/ heathenisim

[@mirandagoldstine8548]

Yes please.

[@thewal1ofsleep]

Excellent content, as always. I really appreciate how you do deeper dives into pagan topics and take a scholarly perspective. So many heathen content creators stick to a very "surface level" approach and don't delve into topics outside of beginner "guides" and such. There's nothing wrong with beginner stuff and it's great that it exists, but I think it becomes too much of a safe zone to exist in and limits your audience. With all that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a new series from you sometime which has a bit broader of an approach to explaining the faith or something, as you do such a great job and more people need to watch your content. Also, your beard is magnificent. Do you ever use a straightener? I'm currently just wearing a moustache for the summer, but when my beard gets as long as yours the hair patterns do CRAZY things and I've considered a straightener to get it under control!

[@maxbuckley9762]

Sword hand for tyr Blood for thor Heart for Freya Life for odin Hail to the Æsir Hail to the vånir Hail to our ancestors Wise words and healing hands while we live

[@jamesrobinson4042]

Videos like this are making me more and more comfortable to feel my own personal "pull" towards the Gods.. ive been silently watching your videos for a while now while sitting on the side of pure interest and information gathering on a subject I have always been interested in. But with all of the hardships I have faced and all of my mental issues (maybe because of it maybe not) through listening to your debates and arguments/ watching other people's videos and finding more information I feel comfortable to at least come out to a small community that I now more than ever feel a draw to the gods and a hunger to learn and embrace something that I feel has been lost within me for a long time.. while my grandmother is Christian and tried to force it onto me while I was a child I was always a steadfast what I like to call "agnostic atheist" but I'm not necessarily starting to doubt it I just feel the draw to the Gods in a way I never have before.. I feel confused about changing my core beliefs after thinking all this time how logical they seem to be yet I feel like I should turn to the Gods for help.. though I fear they may not help me.. I don't know maybe I'm a fool or maybe I'm just desperate to throw my problems onto something else other than me? I dont know what to do but it feels as though my heart is starting to tell me that Odin may grant me the wisdom to finally figure things out..

[@johangrostkerck6046]

Try to look into yourself, maybe do some dreamwork, - meditation perhaps - and try to look for signs or synchronicities, though you shouldn't put too much attention to it, because honest coincidences do exist and you generally shouldn't drive yourself mad with obsession or become megalomanic etc. Furthermore, try to read about what you think is interesting and just go from there

[@GrayWolf73]

Being new to Nordic Paganism, and Polytheism. I was wondering what your thoughts were on Neil Price. I've struggled throughout my life, when it comes to religion. I was baptized a Christian many years ago, but throughout my entire life, I've felt it to be nieve, to believe that there is only one God. I've also struggled to believe, that one God, is responsible for creating everything within our world. Which brings me to where I am today. I understand that Nordic Paganism, is considered to be, the religion of homework, so to speak. The lack of accurate information, tends to make things tough/annoying sometimes. But then I remember/realize, that it is up to us, to form our own thoughts, and opinions, of the topic at hand. Which is why I feel very comfortable, with the Norse Pagan religion. It seems more logical to me, and it reminds me, that this ancient religion of our ancestors, in my opinion, was more so meant to be, an individual/family practice, as compared to an organized religion, meant to bring people together, and told what to believe, and then asked for a monetary donation, so that I too can be saved, by the almighty God. Lol. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, on all the topics, for which you address. Like Odin himself, I am always seeking knowledge, and or truths, in a world of people, who seem to not like truths anymore.

[@darkstar3246]

Thank you man. I descend from Germanic families who migrated to Texas. I have had many of dreams and visions of the Norse Gods. For a while I was trying to follow the path but was put off by the stories of some of their death. It is not what I imagined God to be, a thing that could die. To me, God is immortal. So I had and still am very into Hinduism, Shiva, Vishnu, Kali and such. But one thing is for sure, I do not recall ever having visitations of this pantheon as I do with the Norse. I mean it's immediate. Even before I clicked on this video. I saw it.. the spirit realm coming through.. of a small youtube add saying, "Ahh I'm on my way home." And the one who said it looked right into the camera and the moment became so alive. A few months ago, I had called upon the Norse deities again, this time Thor, and that night I had a dream of a lightning ball in front of me hovering, then I was in a wooden house and someone knocked, I opened the door and it was a Norse man with long red hair, of strength, warlike but of good cheer too. I woke up and knew instantly, that was it was Thor. There are too many stories to tell, of the visitations of Odin and Freya. Revealing things to me that I had never known, but are popular characteristics of them. Also a dream revealing to me one of my pronounced Germanic bloodline ties, the Goths. Later I took a DNA test and according to their results the DNA I have of ancient populations is #1 Visigoths. But yea, it was a needed thing to hear.. about how the stories presented are all made up by Christians.. Odin dying just never sat right with me. Thanks for reminding me to focus on my understanding of the world and not that of others (their writings) like it is the 'infallible word of God'.

[@cratesthefoolish2442]

I really identify with the very last part of this video. Growing up as a Christian, I'm desperately wanting something that I can look to as the full source of my spirituality, and it's frustrating that basically outside of the Abrahamic faiths, that just doesn't really exist. That said, how do you go about using the texts mentioned in this video to reconstruct?

[@Iceberg6606]

Absolutely spot on with respect to the Sami people, tragically. Good work on this one.

[@emiliobustamante2401]

Man, that’s some Marvel Comic’s Thor level of ... “artistic interpretation” at the beginning of the Poetic Edda. Does Snori have an ao3 account?

[@Thunderer18]

Personal opinion: I feel that the sacrifice of Odin of Himself to Himself is actually mirrored in a verse from the Hovamol: by your getting measure thy gift. So by the cycle of reciprocity you have a god being offered a god and as a result being given by some other power the runes as a means of ultimate wisdom.

[@lizabethhampton4537]

This description of the Prose Edda reminds me of the Book of Invasions

[@nathanmauk9387]

It's amusing to note that, via a combination of euhemerism and fantastic genealogy, Queen Elizabeth II is said to be descended from both Woden and the Prophet Muhammad.

[@kunitakeokeya6745]

I was always taught that Snorri wrote the POETIC Edda. I learned something new today.😀

[@XD_cRiMeScEnE]

So, I have a question. Of course I’ve watched the tv show Vikings. I know it is often criticized for over dramatic changes in the beliefs. I’m just wandering about Harbard. Who was he in the stories? Was he Odin in another form? Is that an actual thing in this belief? I guess I’m asking if Harbard or the wonderer was something Odin did often?

[@OceanKeltoi]

He is from the Poetic Edda in The Lay of Hárbarðr. There's arguments as to whether or not it's another name for Loki or Odin. Odin seems to be the more likely candidate. Either way, the character seems to be a disguise to mask the true identity of the character. But his character and behavior are very different from the expression of him in the Vikings TV show. Though he does like to talk about his sexual exploits.

[@Internetguy_L337_90D]

problem with norse mythology is that it was passed down orally and not written like in the bible and we all know that when things are passed down with words the story tends to drag off.

[@katrineodinnsson4569]

its my personal theory that loki leading/causing ragnarok is Christians trying to equate him to their devil. in all the other stories he doesn't act like this being of evil that wants to destroy the world and kill the gods. it just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent with his personality enough for me to subscribe to at least that part of the ragnarok story.

[@emiliobustamante2401]

The whole Baldur story, from the actions of Loki and the promise of rebirth seems very suspect to me. Something definitely got lost in translation

[@jamessorrel]

I've been wondering about Ragnarok. Was it there as s story before Christianization?

[@gerihuginn]

Tacitus was actually a Gallo-Roman who used to wear their kilts under their togas. That may influence his perception of Rome’s adversaries as well as his personal perception of Roman imperial expansionism

[@mykulpierce]

God in English seems to be derived for ǥuđánaz or Gudan. A strong argument that when the Goths were converted to Christianity it spread these terms for diety as their legendary founder Gaut/Gautaz was often diefied and they adopted the term for Christianity's version of the divine. The definition of deity has shifted between people's to range from powerful miracle workers to unknowable aspects of reality.

[@Link_ye_Hyrule]

So far entire month of July in southern Ontario Canada has been nothing But Thunder Lightning and rain

[@alexanderringler5747]

Thank you. I consider myself as a pagan, but I never looked upon any primary sources, exactly because of the biases. But now I feel like now I am equiped to read and learn from those sources.

[@greywolfwalking6359]

Some interesting pieces, in this segment! One's that I have shared n talked over, with several " Christians and [church leaders]" ... they are still scratching their heads... Lol!!!! It is good to catch " stories " ,n watch some spin tales from their ecumenical perspective...n yet..lol..still have no clear idea of what the varied connections actually were??!! Thanks for sharing 👍!

[@Sewblon]

I know the story of Odin sacrificing himself unto himself from Manowar. Gods of War is a great album. But now that you have said it out loud, I can't think of that story without thinking "Your Christianity is showing." Good to know that its not just Manowar's fault for not being professional historians, but that even when the story was first recorded, it was all ready Christianized.

[@tompatterson1548]

The sagas also have the issue of many of them being like actual fiction like the chivalric sagas, although one of them does give directions to Jotunheim, but this one also includes King Arthur.

[@granmar8166]

Hallå Oceanen! I believe in you and your concept! I think your channel will get big, so get ready to be famous my friend! /a swede! (Not the vegetable)

[@Ivytheherbert]

Regarding the hidden biases in the Poetic Edda, it's also possible that the connections to ideas associated with Christianity and other religions occurred naturally through cultural contact, especially considering that we're talking about the beliefs of a group of ancient explorers. In all likelihood there wouldn't have been a uniquely Norse faith separable from everywhere else to begin with, not only because the gods aren't restricted to a single people group or location, but because methods and views of religious practice are subject to human culture which refuses to obey borders. My thoughts on euhemerism are borrowed somewhat from Eastern religions, where there are beliefs in gods or other spiritual beings sometimes incarnating as humans. I don't see it as a contradiction at all for Odin to be both a human chieftain and a god.

[@pentegarn1]

It sounds like Geoffrey's "History of the Kings of Britain" story....or at least the beginning of it with Brutus leaving Troy and landing in Greece, and then traveling on to the north to live.

[@j3tztbassman123]

I suppose that it is a home thing when an author declares their bias up front, as Butler does in his translation of the Iliad. I may be biased against open faced sandwiches, but I love pizza.

[@ogr8bearded175]

Interesting. I view pizza as a salad on a very large crouton.

[@julietfischer5056]

Vergil traced the founding of Rome from Aeneas the Trojan. Snorri and Geoffrey of Monmouth likewise linked their histories to Troy.

[@OceanKeltoi]

Exactly.

[@jaydavis2148]

Hey Ocean thank you for talking a bit about the Sami! My fiance is Sami!

[@mrgabest]

A good way to get a broader, if not clearer, picture of Norse mythology is to read the Irish and Welsh myths. The gods aren't always comparable one for one, and the stories themselves often bear little resemblance, but they rhyme (to borrow George Lucas' turn of phrase). Nuada and Tyr clearly have similar origins in an Indo-European tradition that we can only guess at, and so on.

[@darthplagueis13]

I'm pretty sure it should be the gallic war. After all, it's concerned with the gauls, the celtic tribes living in what is now modern day france. The gaelic war would refer to the gaels, the celtic tribes living in scotland, ireland and the isle of man.

[@darthplagueis13]

Germanic =/= Celtic btw but during the kind of caesar, both were around and both are distantly related to scandinavians.

[@urfacecalling101]

Great stuff, Ocean! Really informative and insightful as usual. Is there any chance you may be making a video on Tyr any time soon? I feel like there isn't a lot of information on him out there in video format. (Also, I got to feed the algorithm)

[@hglundahl]

15:46 One rune stone in Sweden contains the earliest version of Hail Mary. A rune stone need not be sourced by a heathen, and if you imagine _"if it contains Norse legend, it was"_ take a look at staff churches with Sigurd killing Favne on the porches.

[@smrtfasizmu7242]

Except that's not what he said. He never said all runestones are heathen

[@hglundahl]

@@smrtfasizmu7242 No, but what he said would have made more sense if more or most were.

[@LaNeona]

Are you able to do a contrast/compare between the differences? I have a theory that a lot of them change things like the Lilith story the Apocrypha changed and the fact that Pandora's Box story changed 800 years later, too from her being a demon slayer who accidentally trapped hope in a chest with the demons, which her husband opened the box, not her.

[@u-niv-e-razum5602]

The secrets are in the simplicity covered with poetic but complicated stories ... This "simplicity" is hidden in the Macedonian language ...

[@gary0044187]

definitely need to watch that havamal vid, I spend a lot of time wondering what portion of hte germanic world had even heard it and what portion of what we read now was what they would have known

[@prizmajeno]

its always good to see a nicely lit egghead :D Great content!

[@hglundahl]

4:51 "several generations" - you are more in this than I am, so ... Taking destruction of Troy as 1179 BC, taking Odin's arrival as either time of Cyrus or at latest Alexander (Saxo) or as time of Julius Caesar (Fjölner drowns in mead in the court of a contemporary of Augustus), does the number of generations come close to matching either number of years?

[@Coltroniandinorider]

This might help answer a question I wrote on your last video regarding to what degree the past ought to guide modern heathenry, because I struggle to see how the ancient cultures and beliefs lend themselves to modern progressive political ideas, if one’s religion is informing politics anyway.

[@radiovalhal7141]

Maybe just abandon the progressive politics and find the sense in traditional values. I see many trying to pervert the old ways of my people to make it fit some modern political madness, transgender, cancel culture etc. People like that should worship the jötnar and the chaotic forces trying to destroy the world and balance. I see these people seeking their own version of Ragnarok, so it certainly would make more sense, than for them to pretend worshipping our Gods.

[@Coltroniandinorider]

@@radiovalhal7141 I get the feeling you can’t derive one from the other but I’m not infinitely wise or something. I feel like what I’ve seen so far has been attributing values that weren’t originally intended, like implying that when Thor dressed up as a bride with Loki as his maid: Thor is referred to as a he but Loki is referred to as a she, and this has been interpreted as an affirmation for a non-binary Loki, but I feel like in the original context this was intended as an insult towards Loki in some way, or a nod to Loki’s capacity to shape-shift. In either case Loki’s transformation into the maid seems to have as much relevance towards gender and sexuality as when he transformed into the mare that gave birth to Sleipnir, and I’m not hearing people championing bestiality or implying that a celebration of bestiality was the intent of the passage that should be carried forward into modern times. All that said I would love an explanation and I’m open to Ocean’s ideas for sure. I’m not claiming to be right, just expressing my current understanding and having an openness towards the truth.

[@radiovalhal7141]

The examples were not specifically directed towards you. Thor being dressed up as a woman is a great insult to him and show what the Gods think of men like that. Lokes gender not being specific is not some confirmation of non-binary madness, but rather an image of his chaotic, lying nature that will eventually result in the downfall of the Gods. So that is in no way positive either and I just don't like to see the old ways of my people being abused by progressive extremists in far away countries, to suit their political agenda. Finally using loke to promote the current sexual deconstruction of everything that is normal, shows off a very simple minded and childish approach to the Gods, what they represent and how to understand the mythology. It is the same with people worshipping or invoking Lokes name... a very bad idea. He should be respected for what he is... a chaotic force of nature, but one should not play around with loke. When standing on one of our thousands of burial mounds where our ancestors, who worshipped our Gods, were burried - I can sometimes understand how people far away from the source can get so much wrong. Our old ways is not a religion of books like christianity. It is a living breathing religion where even the soil we stand on and our nature speaks to us and plays a major role in the connection between man, Gods, spirits and ancestors.

[@Coltroniandinorider]

@@radiovalhal7141 I would imagine you’d take Odin’s banishment from Asgard for learning seidr as a confirmation that even the Gods are beholden to their gender roles, but I wonder if someone like Ocean would see it as a worthwhile sacrifice for knowledge and therefore a positive tale/Odin’s true commentary on gender or alternatively a christianized tale and therefore admissible. I’m thinking the idea of christianization is probably the most common method of disregarding things people disagree with.

[@radiovalhal7141]

@@Coltroniandinorider The idea I sometimes see that Odin is selfish is just wrong. He does everything he can even though he already knows he will die at Ragnarok. He is the opposite of the modern nihilistic mind set. His quest for wisdom and knowledge is not for his own gain when he sacrifices himself to himself. Odin learning seidr is in itself a sacrifice, because men doing seiđr was frowned upon. This is indeed another great sacrifice by Odin and should not be misinterpreted as him having gender issues. Besides men are not Gods, so they should not think themselves important enough to follow in the footsteps of Odin and engage in Seiđr

[@TheNeighborhoodZenPriest]

Awesome videos as always! I must say though that comparing the Sami with the indigenous people of the Americas is not quite fair or accurate. It is however a narrative that those arguing to extended Sami independence has employed as a strategy since the post-modern deconstruction of colonialism.

[@Eskoteric]

I’m surprised there aren’t that many videos on KZbin about Euhemerism being used as anti-pagan polemics

[@brettmeldahl4456]

Thanks!

[@hossmcgregor3853]

Even a primary source has a bias. Just look at diaries and letters from soldiers on both sides of any war.

[@ozmostest]

New to this heathenry an I am loving it. So there are nine realms three are blissful two are earth like one is cultured and one represents the wild. And the last two are hellish and torment. I'm gonna reframe from questions there has to be more.

[@HellBrYnger]

watching this for 10 minutes i can only think of the old man on the moutain asterix and obelix vs cesar... THAT WASH BETTER BE SOFT!

[@CrypticArchives]

This video has really enforces my feelings against any form of reconstructionism. You can use the sources of names, themes, and some traits of the entities of the Norse tradition but should not be used as any kind of base for a spiritual practice. UPC is far more important then these sources and IMO are much more genuine. We will never relive the pagan religion as it was in pagan times so the best thing we can do is do anything we can and use any tactics possible to commune and get results from the gods and entities of this particular spiritual path

[@savagenature1]

On the subject of Odin and the story of Ragnarok and how one might interpret it, one thing that I've always found strange. Odin is known for his relentless pursuit of wisdom and knowledge, no matter the sacrifice. So, when you consider all the different types of knowledge he has gained access to, it seems very strange that he brings about his own demise through his treatment of Fenrir (plus Loki and his other children, but mainly Fenrir). One would think that a being of such infinite knowledge would have realized that by unjustly punishing Fenrir, he would be creating the very enemy that would destroy him. Or at the very least, he should have seen it as the most likely possibility. I see a few possible explanations for this (story-wise): 1. The Norse Gods (like many other deities) have very human personalities and tendencies. So, it could be that after obtaining so much knowledge he became arrogant and overlooked the warning signs that should have been obvious to him. Maybe he didn't realize his mistake until after the damage had already been done and then accepted his fate. 2. Odin knew exactly what would happen and chose to have Fenrir bound anyway because he knew that Ragnarok had to happen. Maybe he saw the events of Ragnarok (including his death at the jaws of Fenrir) as the best possible outcome in order for the world to begin anew (kind of like a mixture of Jesus Christ and Dr. Strange in "Avengers: Infinity War") I would love to hear any thoughts or opinions on this subject since I find Odin to be one of the most interesting and admirable deities and this was something about him that always kind of rubbed me the wrong way (partially because I love wolves and I always felt bad for Fenrir)

[@ninetales6485]

Good show! Excellent work!

[@sirwilliam4128]

@Ocean Keltoi the picture for this video is misleading. It reads “Was Odin just some old Wizard.” But, when you click on it to activate the link it takes one to this video about bias. Please be advised.

[@stephenakastephen5117]

Yeah, when I came into heathenry I definitely tried to latch onto the Poetic Edda as something akin to the bible, especially the Havamal.

[@axelthegreat9]

Man... my first thought on hearing the whole 'they're worshiping things that're just people' was; "You mean just like many cristians with jesus?"

[@IkedaHakubi]

I would have thought bias is when you pay for it.

[@marinakaiser7639]

So busy at the moment but i would never miss your post.Better late then never 😁

[@superherobeatdown]

Just found your channel love the content keep it up fella 👍

[@Master_Blackthorne]

Easy way to remember: Gallic is pronounced as in "gall." Caesar was assassinated because he had a lot of gall. "Gaul" is pronounced the same way. (see Asterix). Gaelic is pronounced as in "gale." There are a lot of gales in Gaelic countries. Don't worry about the charge--it'll be on your next bill.

[@marinakaiser7639]

Great as always so curious

[@brianspeck3568]

This topic isn't new to me, as such.. Christianity and paganism have mingled since the beginning of Christianity. Consider the pagan triple goddess Brigid and the Christian St Bridget that she became once Celtics lands became Christian. And...there's still discussion of pagan tradition inside Christianity and whether it should bother us (like the Christmas tree), to this day. As a Christian, I've had to ask the questions about my own practice, it's origin and it's utility, so it makes sense other faiths would do so. But I always wondered how Pagans/Heathens determined their practices based on the fact that scant sources for the stories existed outside of those like those you mentioned. And the oral traditions that might be more trustworthy have disappeared. I found this video both educational and interesting. There is much value in an approach to a lot of things that is profoundly aware but not overly dismissive due to bias. Because, as you say, it's everywhere.

[@MrGalpino]

To a brit, the pronunciation 'geilik' is for gaelic, ie irish. Gallic, as in modern French, is pronounced 'galik'

[@JohnWayneBrady]

Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this before, but it may be important to note that Germania by Tacitus isn’t a primary source. Tacitus, himself, never went to Germania and the text itself is better understood as a lit review of Ancient Roman texts pertaining to the tribes of Germania from what I understand.