Conlanging Case Study: Part 27 - Nominalization and Trying to Understand Causatives

[@Biblaridion]

Before anyone asks, Alien Biospheres Part 13 will be out in a few weeks (see my latest community post)

[@colonelhammerhead3025]

Thank you

[@jave2274]

i didnt dare to ask, dont want to force you. but thank you for answering, you know your audience. Wish you all the best with all your projects.

[@saultoner1216]

Thank you and take your time

[@Hwelhos]

looking forward to it

[@AaronGeo]

👍

[@moonythespoonie9551]

12:09 - something that popped into my head here is "dishwasher" the appliance vs "dish washer" someone who, say, washes dishes in a restaurant for a living, where the only difference is a space when they're written down and the pronunciation is exactly the same

[@keras_saryan]

This language definitely gives me Bashkir vibes: front rounded vowels, uvular plosives, dental fricatives, vowel harmony, a wide range of medial clusters (including sonorant + /h/) but restricted to non-existent clusters at word edges.

[@myaobyclepiej]

With regard to causative case marking in Japanese, two cases are used - accusative (を) and dative (に): - with transitive verbs, the causee is always marked with に and the object of the verb with を, - with intransitive verbs, the causee is marked with に if the action is volitional and with を if it is forced, - を also applies when the causee is inanimate, since inanimate nouns have no will of their own, as well as with verbs expressing emotion (泣かせる, 驚かせる, 興奮させる, etc.), since you typically cause emotions in people, not allow people to have them.

[@ppenmudera4687]

For those that cannot read Japanese: を /o/, に /ni/, 泣かせる /nakaseru/, 驚かせる /odorokaseru/, 興奮させる /ko:fun saseru/

[@piotrwegrzyniak5798]

About tv-, maybe the way to go is to make an initial prothesis so tvaali => etvaali (or any other vowel, maybe the harmony can influence it)

[@kirotanica2623]

I think the "/w/ after obstruents becomes /v/" rule would definitely influence the /tw/ cluster in /twaali/. But /tvaali/ doesn't really seem to fit with the strong tendency to avoid clusters. I think something closer to /tʋaali/ is more likely; it stays an approximant, but does become labiodental, just because of the general trend to have /w/ become /v/ after obstruents.

[@andyhunjan]

I've only been studying Mandarin for two years, but my understanding is that 呢 acts how you explained it, with the sentence it follows generally relating to previous discourse. Some examples: 我吃米饭，你呢？ (I am eating rice, how about you?) “你应该运动” “我做什么运动呢？” （"You should exercise." "What exercise should I do, then?" It also has an additional use in expressing progressivity, where 他在吃饭, 他吃饭呢，and 他在吃饭呢 all mean ”he is eating food", though when both 在 and 呢 are in practice, it intensifies the meaning a bit. I don't know if the 呢 in questions is the same as 呢 in progressive constructs or if by coincidence they sound exactly the same, but that is something to think about

[@jackren295]

Another use of 呢 is when asking for a choice: 你是买苹果呢还是买橙子呢？ 2SG COP buy apple INTER or buy orange INTER "What are you going to buy, apples or oranges?" And again this usually comes up in response to what was said previously. Therefore, as a native speaker, I consider the use of 呢 to be more restricted than 吗, which can be put at the end of basically any sentence to turn it into a question.

[@evfnyemisx2121]

"Trying to understand causatives" I understand this on a personal level when I use it for word derivation

[@ibi6262]

I think the "sleeper (animate)" could be like an hibernating animal in general? When you are talking about the "sleeper," I immediately thought of sloths lol. But then I remember that this "conculture" is supposed to be up north or in a plain.

[@watson-disambiguation]

Yeah, maybe a bear of some kind?

[@ec1480]

Exactly what I thought

[@inept_]

the next logical step is to construct "i need to see a man about a dog"

[@blacky6552]

If you wanted to go meta, you could use "live word creation" or "live word doing" for the language name.

[@ryuko4478]

One of my favourite language names recently has been Sanna, the endemic name of Cypriot Marionite Arabic, it comes from /liˈsaːnunaː/ > /ˈlsaːnnaː/ > /ˈlsaːnna/ > /ˈlsanna/ > /ˈsanna/ meaning "our tongue"

[@arsenixkikokoro]

8:20 In Slovak we have this "i" conjuction which has the funcion of "and/too/and X too/also (kinda)" even though each one of them has a more commonly used equivalent. It is seen as more poetic (and somewhat archaic) and it is rarely used in regular speech.

[@Mr.Nichan]

If the language is referred to as "our language" or "the language we speak", and the language has an inclusive/exclusive distinction in plural (not just in dual), than part of the name would change (?"taad" vs "tanda") depending on whether one is speaking to another speaker of the language of to an outsider.

[@llsilvertail561]

Lmaoo, you've gotten Hungarian, Finnish, Mongolic/Altaic, and Persian/Arabic so far for natlangs, and I think there was a Quenya in there as well. And everyone's said it's more vaguely similar to whichever one they said rather than sounds like, so I'd say it sounds pretty unique.

[@harrycook9041]

That thing with /v/ being able to follow any obstruent and that's the only cluster is in my language Tanol, except in Tanol it's not just obstruents but any consonant. Some speakers keep it as Cv but others epethesise an /a/ initially. It is weird, but it follows sound changes and adds *spice* to your phonotactics.

[@Hwelhos]

well hello patreon :p

[@sully9767]

Not a natlang, but I feel some quenya vibes from this conlang, jsyk. The general flow and the long vowels + an abundance of r's + no obstruent clusters.

[@wololopurgisnacht]

Just catching up with this series. Not a natlang but I have been thinking for awhile that it sounds kind of like High Valyrian to me with all the long vowels and high rounded vowels, geminates, and occasional uvular stops.

[@markmayonnaise1163]

Ah good, this may be a sleepless night but it won't be a boring one

[@-emir5484]

I kinda see this language as similar to persian and arabic idk why tho Words like "nidhaan" or "tesqe" have this kind of flavor. Im Turkish so it sound similar to some loans like "nizam" or "tespih" ig

[@freddypowell7292]

Possibly, allow the speech possession class to include knowledge and ideas as well? Edit: specifically those shared, where secrets might have a different class if you keep using 'say' as the source for that possessor word.

[@Nonov_Yurbisniss]

18:09 - And so, the language was named Tod.

[@kirotanica2623]

At the end, you say "will have become aware" as an additional entry for "to have sensed." I think the word you're looking for is "to have (since) noticed." Having that as an additional meaning would definitely not be far-fetched.

[@agwic]

The language definitely gives me Altaic sprachbund vibes, but not really more specific than that

[@Nemo_Anom]

Phonologically, it sounds rather distinct, although the vowel harmony system really makes it sound Turkic. However, the grammar is where this language really stands out. The V2 construction plus converb system is really unique, as far as I know. Though to be fair, I'm more a phonology guy than a syntax guy. I do know that your case and class system with all of the clitic work, plus the verbs is really unheard of. I can't think of s single language that has your exact grammar. If I could add one bit of criticism: overall, the sound of the language is rather liquid and indistinct. If that's your aim, then great, but it somewhat suffers from a similar problem to Quenya, where things are so euphonious that the language lacks a certain reality. That may just be my phonological aesthetic taste, though.

[@saultoner1216]

All the time you need

[@andyhunjan]

Keep obstruent+v!!!

[@ppenmudera4687]

31:13 this time Bib accidentally made a big stupid jellyfish lol

[@singadorito7802]

Make a Conlang Template for all users who get trouble by making Languages their own? Maybe you could help it with Artifexian, so that people get to freely make their languages simple without any other problems and errors(If this is possible)

[@Ming-Yi_Fong]

mandarin has two sentence final particles for questions 1. 嗎 ma, for yes-no questions: 你吃早餐了嗎？ Did you have the breakfast? 2. 呢 ne, for wh questions: 你早餐吃什麼呢？ What did you have for the breakfast? 你好嗎？ are you good? 我很好，你呢？ I'm good. How about you? side notes 1. yes-no questions can be made from "Verb Neg. Verb". It is interchangeable with 嗎. 你來不來 = 你來嗎 will you come? 2. 呢 is always optional. 嗎 is optional in casual speech. 你早餐吃什麼呢 = 你早餐吃什麼

[@ko-lq7vu]

8:23 yeah like in korean you have 그래서, 그리고, 그러니까, 그런데, etc

[@lulujuice1]

It's kind of like,,, turko-finnish? phonologically turk-ish, but orthographically finn-ish.

[@danthiel8623]

Thank you.

[@filippo6157]

For the name of the language, you could also create a cool was for this people to call themselves, besides people. Maybe a name they (or others) used to distinguish your speakers from a nearby folk, based on some cultural characteristic. So maybe if they were (unlike their neighbours) good shepherds, they may call themselves sheep people

[@driksarkar6675]

5:58 I think Mandarin also allows the “or not” strategy, though I don’t know how common it is. That would be a better comparison.

[@scptime1188]

Yeah you can say things like "你忙不忙?", meaning "Are you busy?" But literally means "You busy (or) not busy?"

[@nydap5506]

And now I wonder, are you going to record designing a script?

[@bambinazo123]

People waiting for episodes of this series: 😀 People waiting for a new alien biospheres episode: *completes Elementary, high school, and university; gets a job, sees Queen Elizabeth the second's death, and dies of old age 💀*

[@isaacmusclow9517]

For the nex episode, are you able to do conjunctions like for, and, nor, but , or, and yet? Most languages uses conjunctions ike coordinating (the aforementioned for, and, nor, but, or, yet, [or FANBOY in short], Correlatve conjunctions (when two simular words are joined but used in pairs like Both and And, and Either and Or), and subordinating conjunctions with conjunctions that introduces a suborinate clause. And what about question pronouns like what, when, where, why, and how conjunction?

[@Coolducky2]

I agree that the language doesn't sound like any I've heard before but if I had to put it somewhere on a map I'd probably put it some place in the middle of Asia. Maybe Mongolic?

[@ATOM-vv3xu]

noo the binge watch has ended ) :

[@manuchi_herrjea]

really love initial Cv!! 🎵

[@KineticManiac]

For Turkish "or", I think you meant "veya" and "ya da". "Yoksa" is more like "if not". As for the difference between, "veya" and "ya da", I don't think there's any. Unfortunately, it's very hard to look this up properly. This is because, in formal logic (which is taught as part of mathematics in Turkish curriculum), "veya" is used for "inclusive or" (A or B or both), whereas "ya da" is used for "exclusive or" (A or B but not both). So if you try to google it, you are immediately confronted with all these formal logic stuff and not enough linguistics. However, from what I can observe from myself and people around me, I do think they are largely synonymous. Interestingly, Turkish has a much rarer word for "or", which is "veyahut" (and maybe it has more I can't think of right now) This one feels a lot more like a true "A or B but not both". However, it also gives the feeling that A is more likely than B. So perhaps it's a bit more like "Probably A, but if not, B". Just my own two cents.

[@theclimbingzebra]

For alien biospheres, I think it will be really cool to work on the evolution of adrenalin. Or maybe land animals evolving to go back into the water like what happened to the orca.

[@GeheimesT]

Watch Part 7

[@BartJBols]

Is there a link to this excell? Im writing a procedural language generator script (way more primitive then this) but maybe i learn some things.

[@Sandalwoodrk]

If I were only looking at the transliteration I'd think it was like some kinda dead language from northern India But then you speak it and I hear Icelandic but that's me reaching It sounds p unique

[@ExaTechCorp]

Nice.

[@JontyLevine]

*Bib:* I believe it's _docēre,_ which means, I think, to teach or instruct. And you stick _-tor_ at the end and you get _doctor_ - instructor or teacher, which yes, is also where we get the English word "doctor". *Doctor Who fans:* I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that.

[@matthewjohnson320]

English and many other languages refer to the people who speak them as the name of the language, rather than speech in general or a body part. Perhaps you could name the people who speak first, then derive the name of the language.

[@kharris3352]

YES

[@8Hshan]

"The woman-has child" made me think... is it possible that the English, umm, genitive 's came up that way? Wasn't that one of the simplifications caused by the Vikings, like the "s" plural? Getting rid of cases (mostly) and replacing the most useful with a very obvious - primitive even - construction sounds like sth that very much could be done for simplification.

[@F_A_F123]

's is the remains of old genitive case

[@the_linguist_ll]

Nivaclé (My favorite natlang) does some unique things when it comes to valency, causatives, and nominalization.

[@Hwelhos]

nice another case study

[@TarkTheConlanger]

sounds a bit like Mongolian to me

[@Vininn126]

Stop + v is very common in Slavic and Hungarian

[@blazerightby7073]

under one minute gang lets go

[@Hwelhos]

and ur the first non patreon commenter

[@thevernacularwills9295]

YO 57 seconds ago