Optimal Spoke Length

This is the first of three short videos of technical presentations about bicycle wheels that I gave at seminars in February 2019. This video is about the importance of optimal spoke length. It runs about seven minutes. You may comment directly to Bill Mould at [e-mail].

[@MrMccurley]

I'm building an E-bike from the frame up. Been debating if I wanted to tackle wheel building. Your discussion of the mechanical interface between spoke and nipple isn't just useful, it's golden! Now I understand why one wheel parts supplier I've been perusing recommends going a bit (one mm in my case) longer rather than shorter, especially as I'm using double walled rims. Thank you. Looking forward to watching your other videos...

[@Megadeth6633]

not much views for internet standards but about 300 people learned a lot !! thanks Bill

[@bikefixr]

Having built several thousand wheels over the years...I find spoke breakage at the nipple to be maybe 5% of the total of broken spokes. I see more failed nipples than I do spoke thread fails. I don't like driving the nipple past the threads and onto the spoke shaft. It requires significantly more torque which may be a problem with some softer nipples, it slows the building process down by forcing my (slotted) nipple driver off the nipple 4 or 5 turns prematurely. I also try to consider that I may not be the next person to work on the wheel. A nipple driven past the thread (especially aluminum) can gall against the steel shaft and be very difficult to remove without rounding the nipple flats off...turning a 2 min true job into a 10 or 15 min nipple replacement and much more involved true job. Lots of extra risk for a negligible problem. There are wheels which require a steep nipple exit angle and which do place a bending force on the spoke. If shaft straightness is this really important, I use a 2.5mm ID thick walled steel tube and once the spoke is in the hub and keyed in position, I put a slight bend on the spoke shaft such that the thread enters/exits the nipple nice and straight and the bend occurs only on the shaft just after the nipple flats. Problem solved.

[@-MacCat-]

To justify the damaging of threads inside the nipple and the spoke protruding from the tube/tyre end of the nipple being the best option, as a blanket statement, there needs to a lot more explanation.

[@cesargarcia9597]

Really thank you so much for this video!!!, there are many wheel builders, but you mr. Bill is the first to explain it. Awesome!!!

[@BillMouldWheels]

Thank you, sir.

[@2wagondragon]

Thanks for the informative video. I arrived at much the same conclusion long ago. Armchair experts on bike forums do far too much hand wringing over running up against the end of the thread when going a couple of turns past the end is a good thing as you pointed out. I have actually considered making a stop for my spoke threader to limit the length of the threaded end to seven millimeters when using 12 mm nipples. Years ago I made a stop that allowed it to apply 13 mm of thread when using 16mm nipples but that was before I had all this figured out. I never use that stop anymore.

[@BillMouldWheels]

Dan, thanks much! Bill

[@caerffili_callin]

Good video and I totally agree with you, I would call it 'crunching the threads' and it is a much better and stronger method than 'sizing down' a few mm as you see recommended by some online wheel builders.

[@borderat]

you are a beautiful person for making this. thank you!

[@bikefixr]

I neglected to add: If not having enough threads is a problem use a different nipple. Some have more thread than others as well as different overall lengths as you know.

[@anastasiospattakos6650]

Plus better alignment/orientation capacity.

[@caracolrojo]

I usually thread about 12-13mm on every spoke I use (they usually have about 9mm) to avoid any issues of this kind. I also bend the ends a bit to prevent stressing the spoke at the base of the nipple

[@Jamie-pf9jv]

Just found your channel. Very informative . Thanks Bill. Just subscribed !

[@davidfranklinv2860]

Thank you Bill, I found this very informative.

[@BillMouldWheels]

Thank you, David!

[@madcyclist77]

Thank you so much for this! I’ve broken a few spokes on my road bike over the last few months, and now I know why.

[@BillMouldWheels]

Thanks. I appreciate your comment to me,

[@Triestini]

Very concise and comprehensive information thank you. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@davidkan5469]

Too the point w/o the snoring talk...great info...tks!

[@0neTwo3]

Thanks Bill! Missed you at CABDA... got distracted by too many shiny things. 😅

[@jorgelucascouto]

Great video, congrats

[@iliesh40a]

THANKS Mr. BILL

[@KillahmanMachine]

Thank you, great info Bill 👍

[@p.arnevik6734]

l have set up motorcycle wheels for some time now but this was a interesting teoretic information.

[@robrudmanwheelbuilder]

I agree with you that a longer spoke is better . I have literally built thousands of wheels and maybe we can link up on LinkedIn .

[@Primoz.r]

While the advice on spoke length has some logic to it, in my opinion it might not be the best solution with aluminium nipples. Once you bottom out a Squorx DT Al nipple, it's a gonner. TIghtening it further will either rip the square interface off the body of the nipple at the top or strip the splines of the external torx on the inside of the rim.

[@Primoz.r]

There, just yesterday I tried replacing a spoke in a wheel where the spoke I received was too long. Immediately after the (brass!) nipple hit the end of the thread on the spoke, the square interface part of the nipple simply broke off. No way whatsoever of tightening it over the spoke thread.

[@atexnik]

Yes, not the best advice, it simply doesn't work universally except for some isolated cases.

[@nullnull557]

Да у меня спица лопнула прямо в конце резьбы. Отверстия были прямыми, а не шахматными. При 3 крестах спицы выходили под углом. В следующий раз буду брать более длинные

[@naturandmor]

What about single wall rims? The spoke end can damage the inner tube.

[@BillMouldWheels]

Good question. You unfortunately can't use my recommendations with a single wall rim for he very reason you cited.

[@beardyface8492]

@@BillMouldWheels And yet for decades bicycle manufacturers did, look at any pre 1970s steel rimmed wheel, they simply ground the protruding ends off. It was an unwise cyclist who tightened any spokes without dismounting tyres removing rim tape & filing off the new protrusion.

[@beardyface8492]

That's why they used to grind the ends off flush with the nipples after building.

[@ScrubsIsee]

This is very interesting. I‘d like to know more about the last statement about the longer spokes. Maybe you can give more insights into this. How do YOU calculate the spoke length to achieve this result?

[@BillMouldWheels]

Christian, I just use a standard spoke length calculator and round up about 2 mm. Being a little longer than necessary is better than being too short.

[@rodneytrynor7374]

Wouldn't it be better to match the spoke and nipple material(steel to steel or aluminum to aluminum or brass to brass) rather than forcing the nipple onto the spoke and out the back of the nipple? Maybe the spokes should have upset threads like some bolts do.

[@radidoc4832]

This is very interesting and insightful video, but practically I am assuming it would be hard to achieve same end positions on all the spokes when trueing a wheel with equal tensions. The next question is would it be better if all the spokes have equal weak points rather than having only few spokes with weak points, which would likely break?

[@rosspt7126]

All spokes will be equal, you would build to the end of the thread as usual. If your chosen spoke is 1.5 turns longer, you turn all the nipple that amount extra. Will make no difference at all. Second, if you need to turn a nipple or a few 1.5 turns in order to true a new rim,,, it's not a good rim ,, use a different rim.

[@napadaanlng69]

Great information but still newbie to this spokes thing. My stock spoke in my motorcycle is 151mm but I have bought a spokes online which the seller sent a wrong length of the spokes which is 161mm. Question is, can I still use the 161mm spokes in my current rims and hub?

[@luismanrique5373]

Amazing!!! Would you consider teaching chemistry at Virginia Tech :p

[@BillMouldWheels]

Luis, teaching organic chemistry would interest me, but I live in Alexandria, so it would be a pretty long commute.

[@charlesbyromhammiii2594]

Thank you Bill for your time and experience. I need your advice and help on a set of spikes and a custom wheel I am building. I took the measurements used an online spoke calculator and came up with a spike length if 276.5 I went rummaging through my stuff cause I knew I still had a set of 14 gauge I hadn't used they measure at 277. So I laced the wheel and hub together using a 4 cross and believe it or not the spokes are way too long and are bowing out. I only tightened them down till the spoke are flush with the head of the nipple. Is there a DIY way to thread the spokes more without having to order a thread machine. Something I could possibly pick up like at the auto parts house or some other trick you know about? Thank you for any and all information.

[@mark38699]

I went too short on accident. I can't balance wheel tension

[@BillMouldWheels]

Even if the spokes are too short, you should still be able to balance spoke tension.

[@highcarbrider]

Hey Bill, do you use Loctie on your nipples? if so which type? or do you just use oil? I never used it until recently and found when you use it, it begins to go off too soon so you have to rush the build. I was asked to use it as my customer nipples have come loose on previous wheel builds despite being tensioned correctly.

[@atexnik]

Not the best advice on crashing the thread, especially with alu nipples, but good news is you don't need loctite anymore with this technique, since the crashed down tips will keep the nipple from unscrewing :D

[@robertengland8769]

I've mastered the art of spoking a wheel, as well as overhauling an engine, both gasoline and Diesel. Never got the recognition I deserve as a good mechanic. Oh, well! Lol.