Billy Williams - Katharine Hepburn tested the director of 'On Golden Pond' (107/172)

To listen to more of Billy Williams’s stories, go to the playlist: • Billy Williams (Film-m...
Born in London in 1929, cinematographer Billy Williams shot more than 40 high profile films throughout his career, being nominated for an Oscar for ‘On Golden Pond’ and ‘Women in Love’, then winning the Oscar for ‘Gandhi’ in 1983. He received an OBE in 2009. [Listener: Neil Binney]
TRANSCRIPT: Well of course the next day was the first day of shooting and we're all set as we’d rehearsed it the day before, everything’s in position, the light’s good. And we’re waiting for Kate, which was... which was unusual because I had worked with her before on 'The Glass Menagerie' and she was never late. She was always there first thing, absolute dynamo, full of ideas, full of energy, a real driving force. And she was... she was a bit late, and when she came on set she was dressed in the most extraordinary costume. She looked absolutely fantastic, she had on a black silk polo neck and black silk matching trousers and a beautifully brown suede tailored jacket and a matching sort of Robin Hood style hat. And she looked like Coco Chanel and... it was extraordinary. She came on and she said: ’Right, I'm ready’, she said, ’Let's shoot’. And Mark Rydell said, ’Well Kate, this isn't... this isn't your costume’. And she said, ’Yes’, she said, ‘I love it, I think it's perfect, I really... this is what I want to wear, you know, let's go’. Well there then developed the most incredible argument and the language from Miss Hepburn was unbelievable and it was directed straight at the director, not at the... not at the costume designer not... or anyone else, straight at the director. And this went on for quite a while and it was hugely embarrassing because everybody was there. ‘All right’, she said at the end. It went on for a while. And then she says, ’All right’ she said ’Come and... tell me what you want me to wear’ and she gave in. And we went to her dressing room which was a cabin on the lake where there were all these clothes that had been prepared and broken down, all old clothes, sort of things which you'd wear on holiday. And something was chosen and she dressed, she came back on set. We did the day's work without another hitch. At the end of the... this first day Mark Rydell came to me and he said, ‘You know, George Cukor’ - with whom Kate and Spencer Tracy did several pictures - he said, Kate... ‘George Cukor warned me; she'll test you on the first day’, and that was the test. Because I think if Mark Rydell had yielded to her he would have been off the picture, because she wanted to be sure that this director knew what he was about and that he was going to stand up to her. I think she needed someone that would stand up to her to an extent. She needed someone that she could respect. She had never worked with him before and so that was the test. And it was amazing.
Well after that, things were pretty much plain sailing but there were al... there was always the odd moment when you really felt that she was trying to steal the scene. And, there was a scene where Hank has lit a fire and rather carelessly he's left a lot of newspapers around and he's gone outside onto the porch and, you know, he's talking to... to the boy and Kate comes into the room and all these newspapers are alight and it looks like the house could catch fire. And so she shouts, you know, ’The house... fire!’, and the two of... the boy and Hank rush in to... to the fire. Now in the script it's essential that the boy puts out the fire because that upsets the old man who really feels he's getting past it, so this was a key point in the script that the boy should put out the fire. And Kate wanted to put out the fire, so there was a bit of a ding dong about that and in the end the boy picks up a bucket which is full of... of fish that they've caught and water and throws the whole lot on the fire including the fish and then of course the fire is put out. Well after that she would always come to me to talk about what she was going to wear. And there was a scarlet cardigan and she was obviously very keen to wear it. She kept bringing it to me and saying, ‘Billy, Billy, I'd like... well what about this lovely red cardigan?’ And I was a bit reluctant because it was such an eye catcher, this colour and it... the... the whole of the interior of the house was kind of muted and in the end she said... she said, ’Well why don't you like this colour?’ And I said, ’Well it, you know it's... it’s so... it's really very bright’. And she said, ’Well, haven't you ever seen any of the French impressionist paintings?’ And I said, ’Yes’, and she said, ’They've always got a little bit of red in them’. And I said, ’Yes, and your eye goes straight to it’. And she said, ’That's exactly what I want’. She knew that if she was wearing red, whether she was in the house or out on the lake, your eye goes straight to it...

[@revmiguel2000]

This man has an incredible memory!

[@camhamster3891]

What a story teller. Such a good nature on display. Mr. Williams must have been a pleasure to work with.

[@gregrak9389]

He smiles WAY TOO MUCH, very disturbing, must be gay or something!

[@mrb8993]

...such a polite well spoken homosexual.

[@camhamster3891]

@@mrb8993 Why thank you.

[@worrywart1311]

@@mrb8993 Is his sexuality relevant? Is that meant to be a snide comment? Do you equate good nature and politeness with homosexuality?

[@RichardHartley-x3x]

Hepburn was never the most talented actor, but she had the most incredible drive and determination to build a great career. She was always willing to use any and every trick or strategy she could think of to get good roles and to stand out in them.

[@TubenIt83]

Hepburn and Fonda both won Oscars for this film.

[@arisasis7502]

Both undeserved, unfortunately.

[@dalekdx]

It was Hepburn's record setting, well deserved forth Oscar. She was beautiful in this movie as in life.

[@melisagalvalizi6982]

Undeserved?????

[@jivanvasant]

Wiki Bio = Kathryn Hepburn was raised in a wealthy family from Connecticut & began to act while at Bryn Mawr College (for Women). She was known for her headstrong independence, spirited personality and outspokenness. She was not a typical wife. Spouse: Ludlow Ogden Smith (m. 1928; div. 1934 = 6 years). Partner: Spencer Tracy (1941-1967; his death) = 26 years.

[@grecogrant2511]

If she had kids believe me there would be a nasty book

[@bullitts]

Greco Grant She was a lesbian, that’s why she had no kids.

[@carlingtons]

that's why she was smart enough not to have any.

[@shannonhill3868]

If she had kids I’m sure she would of been a great mother, someone they would look up to and respect!

[@carlingtons]

shannon hill I agree. And the fact that she chose not to because she believed she was too selfish to raise the kids right, to me shows that she'd be a good one. Anyway, I respect her decision

[@bullitts]

teawithme She was a lesbian and chose not to have children. She could’ve adopted but chose not to.

[@brendencraven4677]

😍

[@stardaddyo9]

She was a thousand years old by 1981.

[@roberthenleynola]

Keep breathing. Someday YOU will be a thousand years old. It happens.

[@lilian9577]

Think she didn't like males 😂 she felt such a bias in the world. She was a taurus we are like that. We know if I was a man I would have a different life

[@remnant2588]

The days are long gone that a lefty would admire someone for not putting up with their bullshit... cancel and shaming are now virtuous..

[@Emanistan]

Watching this interview, it occurs to me that the British seem to have more words for 'argument' than the Eskimos do for snow: tiff, row, bru-ha-ha.....ding-dong.

[@evo5dave]

Never thought about it but you're right, there's dozens.

[@azinegg]

Barney’...

[@_Ben4810]

Bust-up, dust-up, slanging match & words at 10 paces....😉

[@tblynch]

Wonderful stories, beautifully told. The 'golden age' of Hollywood.

[@scosprey]

Tim Lynch Bad enough libs, all dead now. But replaced by woke, dope, “super libs”. Wonder how many are “Harvey suckers”, and pedos?

[@rgrndu-r7p]

1982 was hardly the golden age. Of course Hepburn made many films in the 30’s & 40’s, commonly referred to as the golden age of cinema.

[@robertpace901]

Really like these stories about Katharine Hepburn. She's one of my favorite personalities. The closest I ever got to see her was in 1976, when she was in Los Angeles staying at George Cukors home near Doheny Drive. Some people I knew lived katty korner from Cukor's home. There was a tall stone fence around his property. It was about 6' tall. My friends pointed out the top of a sun type hat that was walking around in the back of Cukor's yard. They said that's Katherine Hepburn under that hat. Apparently she liked to work in Cukor's garden while she was staying with him in town on business.

[@gregrak9389]

apparently, Cukor was gay as fuck, so most women could practically frolic in the nude around him and be perfectly safe, so no wonder she liked to hang out there.

[@grumpyoldlady_rants]

This was fascinating to hear. “On Golden Pond” is one of my all time favorite movies. The characters of Ethyl & Norman reminded me of my dad and stepmom. I told them that they needed to see the movie. The next time I saw them, My dad was wearing a “Norman” sweater and boldly exclaimed “I have a new hero!”

[@CMOT101]

Amazing how many people on here feel qualified to correct a man who actually knew her very well, when the closest they ever got to her is watching KZbin.

[@debrasaunders8003]

Wonderful voice and brilliant story teller.

[@michaeljames4904]

When the gal who literally made women wearing trousers so popular that it became ordinary turns up on set in black silken slacks, you know it’s on!

[@DJ-bj8ku]

The detail he remembers is extraordinary.

[@natalieplunkett4516]

The egos would drive me crazy 😊

[@gregb5696]

Billy....You are amazing!!! I love you!!!

[@plauditecives]

He's so wonderfully well spoken.

[@williamgullett5911]

Hepburn always sounds like she was not a nice person

[@bluenetmarketing]

"Will someone please stop time! I am so tired of it passing on like it is nothing, when it is everything." - Anonymous

[@MissPerriwinkle]

i alwys detected a mean streak n her.....

[@klprds]

Always the gentleman, william.

[@longducdong9517]

*As an actor, no matter how famous you are, YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS. The director is.*

[@neiltappenden1008]

Being a woman at the top back then, well you had to be tough and verbal to stay on top or in the running

[@tjwash2]

I love Katharine Hepburn. She seemed very much her own woman, yet in a way that was endearing, to me anyway. Maybe not to her costars and personal acquaintances .

[@jamesmcinnis208]

I always admired her independence and bluntness, but the Dick Cavett interview revealed to the world her unappealing arrogance.

[@glennfromthebronx]

@@jamesmcinnis208 Well...she WAS uncomfortable with interviews....and Cavett ended up doing at least 2 shows with her....with all of that furniture moving etc. Those interviews with Hepburn....one of Cavett's finest moments. She did NOT like "spontaneity". not one bit. Appeared at one Academy Awards ceremony.

[@cmcb09]

@@glennfromthebronx the one time she did the Academy Awards was when she was presenting, didn't mind that but receiving an award not so much. There was a recollection by a friend of hers, that she kept all the academy awards in the pantry at her home in Connecticut. But what she had framed and on display at her New York apartment were the nomination certificates for when she didn't win. She thought those were more interesting.

[@glennfromthebronx]

@@cmcb09 I saw her and 2 staff/older man and woman, rushing out of her townhouse in midtown east...packing things hurriedly in a station wagon....all within a half minute or so. I was on my way to a doctor's appointment...had no idea she live on that street. It was kinda' exhausting just watching the three of them pack the car so quickly....with no wasted effort or hesitation. This was @1985 or so..so she was well in her 80s. Soooo....she kept them in her pantry. lmao

[@cmcb09]

@@glennfromthebronx that's amazing that you saw her in person, there is a clip on here from a few years before she died. Some paparazzi filmed her as she was being helped into her car she gave them the most contemptuous glare I've ever seen. I'm sure if she hadn't been so frail at that point she might have gone over to them and given them what for.

[@andyok3625]

I could watch these clips all day. Excellent.

[@garydeblasio8810]

What a wonderful interview from a great artist.

[@catman3552]

People say Bette Davis could be difficult. Bette said the only thing she had a problem with was bad directors and bad scripts. Katherine is good,but I'm Team Bette.

[@247drycleaners9]

i would go crazy if i were locked in a room with Hepburn or Bette Davis.

[@silvialeprattomazza6214]

Oh but what a memory you'd have if it and what a story to regale folks with.

[@jerrypolverino6025]

She was a wac job.

[@dallasjones8185]

Katherine Hepburn was an excellent actress and a unique personality, but not a nice person, inconsiderate and a pain in the ass. I am not saying that because she was a woman.

[@autumnconway3642]

She was like a man and people had to take it or leave it.Anything less in that industry and she would have been pushed out of the career she had.

[@gregoryphillips3969]

What a fantastic storyteller the host of this video is. I could listen to him for hours. To know that Katherine Hepburn at the beginning was testing the director was an incredibly wise insight. To understand that Hepburn was going to at some points assert herself in ways that could be challenging and triumph in the way the director did is a tribute to his greatness. And lastly On Golden Pond showed out well at the Oscars which validates the efforts of everyone involved .

[@hiridavidfeign]

That's why the lady was a scamp.

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

It was her name out there on the Marquee. It has to be good.

[@pattimaeda6097]

She was ugly (don’t know why Bette said she wanted to look like her 🤮) and an ass

[@susanbrogan2517]

@@pattimaeda6097 I always thought Kate Hepburn had an inflated ego.

[@1927su]

Maybe at her age & experience, she was just in the “ this is how it’s gonna be” mood ..

[@FormerHumanX]

Katharine Hepburn played Coco Chanel in a Broadway production called Coco in 1969, so that could explain the fashion sense.

[@williamgullett5911]

Did they show the part about Chanel being a Nazi collaborator in that film? Is it worth seeing?

[@theartfuldodger935]

Bullshit.

[@Iveraghboy]

She was a force to be reckoned with , no doubt about that.

[@brianc939]

Who the hells he talking about? Hank?????

[@FormerHumanX]

Henry Fonda

[@thomasthomas2418]

One actor put it succinctly; "Katherine Hepburn didn't like anyone."

[@arisasis7502]

Another spoiled, entitled celebrity. She was not testing the director. She was being a brat.

[@clairieannie1]

aris asis she was indeed testing the director. Some directors are very intimidated by big stars. The director has the entirety of the movie to shape from beginning to end. If they don’t keep the star under control the movie can be ruined. Every actor wants to shine bright but that can throw the movie out of balance. Kate knew that. She had to know if the director was strong enough to keep control of the movie and make it a good one. A great performance in a lousy movie doesn’t do anybody any good.

[@arisasis7502]

@@clairieannie1 Why does she need to test anyone, in the first place? Who gave her that authority? She's just one of the paid actors. If she has concerns, she needs to bring it up professionally. If she does not trust the creative abilities of people she's going to be working with, she should have brought that up before signing the contract to appear in the movie. She does not need to wait until the first day of actual shooting to "test" the director. Should the director test her on the second day? What about the camera person, does he get his chance to test Hepburn on the third day, and have her fired if he does not like how she looks in some angles? She was just being a spoiled brat, and wanted to get her way.

[@TubenIt83]

She won her fourth Best Actress Academy Award for this film and had been acting for fifty years. If a director can’t handle someone of that magnitude of talent, then the director is in for months of trouble. Rydell handled it well, and thus, HE wasn’t fired.

[@arisasis7502]

@@TubenIt83 It was an academy award that she does not deserve. Hepburn's acting prowess is way overrated. She would not stand a chance next to Helen Mirren, Maggie Smith, or Judi Dench - all very talented yet very professional and respectful to everyone. No Diva issues. And the Oscars is nothing but a club of self-entitled narcissists patting themselves on the back. Hepburn had been in the business long enough so her arrogance in "testing" a director on the first day of shooting can be excused? And the director "handled it well so he wasn't fired"? This is a classic case of abuse of power in Hollywood, and it is so bad, Hepburn's fans are falling over themselves to make this story look better.

[@autumnconway3642]

@@arisasis7502 your ignorance of the time and the industry are astounding. Go watch Family Guy or something,It will suit you better

[@pepelemoko01]

One wonders if Billy "lit the set "for this interview.(or a least had a hand in it )

[@Spiderman7Bob7]

I always knew that Katharine Hepburn was NO angel. I liked her, but I never thought she was 'all that'. Give me Bette Davis any day.

[@bobbasheely]

nonsense.

[@meboneme1]

Good thing your THOUGHT doesn't matter!

[@meboneme1]

I guess you FORGET/DON'T KNOW Bette Davis' reputation! LEGENDS that last ALWAYS want the best!

[@onemercilessming1342]

She should have been fired. She was an actress hired to play a specific part, not "test" directors to see if they met her exacting standards.

[@akikolehmainen88]

You hire stars to be stars, not to play parts.

[@onemercilessming1342]

@@akikolehmainen88--NO. "Stars" are hired because they are a box office draw--they fill theater seats. "Stars" are actors hired to play parts. And, as Dolly Parton said to Sylvester Stallone in "Rhinestone", stars are really nothing more than big balls of hot gases.

[@akikolehmainen88]

@@onemercilessming1342 You don't draw an audience by showing up and doing as told. Why such dismissive attitude towards Hepburn who had by then been half a century in business and knew what she needed to do to make the production work? You might not like her methods but the movie became second biggest box office that year and got 10 Oscar nominations and 3 wins, one for Hepburn herself.

[@onemercilessming1342]

@@akikolehmainen88--You draw an audience as an actor by showing up and doing EXACTLY as you're told. That's why there are directors. It is THEIR vision for the film that matters, not that of the paid hack who spews the lines. There are any number of actors who could fill those roles. Diva behavior is unacceptable and the BEST actors and actresses do not indulge in it. Tom Hanks comes to mind--as does Tom Cruise, Chris Pratt, and Bryce Dallas Howard. Now, before you get on your high horse about Hepburn, she was the mistress of a married man for decades (Spencer Tracy) who wouldn't divorce his wife (Roman Catholics at the time were usually excommunicated for divorcing before Vatican II). She WILLINGLY interfered into a religious relationship to which she had no moral right. Look up the interviews by Peter O'Toole and Anthony Hopkins and those who actually had to deal with the bitch.

[@akikolehmainen88]

@@onemercilessming1342 Oh dear, you have almost no understanding how artists work. But this is really about dissing Hepburn for being in a relationship with a man who refused to divorce his wife, isn't it. I bet you could go on about that for hours. Rather than advising people how to make movies, you might be more comfortable consulting a nunnery.

[@michelboudot2882]

A star is a star. Capricious comes with it....put up with it

[@Finians_Mancave]

Why? When the phone stops ringing and the Diva realizes no one in Hollywood will deal with her nonsense anymore, perhaps she'll see who really holds the cards in the situation. If I'm the Producer of the movie, I'd make damn sure any star who holds up production of my movie becomes financially responsible for every minute we're not shooting because of their ridiculous demands. IOW, have it in the contract they sign. No "star" is irreplacable.

[@TubenIt83]

The great Kate won her fourth Oscar for this film. Fonda won his first competitive Oscar for this film. They both had been acting for 50 years! They were STARS of the highest magnitude!

[@stardaddyo9]

Some women confuse being difficult with being strong.

[@codyrikerbr]

Some men are confused about the double standards imposed on women and not on men. If Daniel Day Lewis had done exactly what she did, a “test” of sorts, I doubt you’d call him difficult.

[@jameshudson169]

@@codyrikerbr my sense is hollywood is full of a$$holes. male and female. sorry, feperson.

[@princeharming8963]

'Strong' is the ability to have a discussion about things that matter to you. Psychoticly enraged shrieking and tantrums.. is the behavior of a bully.

[@autumnconway3642]

@@codyrikerbr exactly

[@MyLovelyDeadFriends]

@@codyrikerbr yes, he'd be a complex, misunderstood genius.

[@hectormanuel9793]

Katherine Hepburn was a Hollywood product that came with all the shortcomings that usually come with actors from that industry. British actors on the other hand are far more professional, due to the fact that the mayority had to pay their dues early on. Katherine on top of that was a lesbian, and they usually come with alot of baggage. So, it can be definitely hard working with them. Still hear horror stories from people in the film industry from abroad how difficult it has always been working with entitled american actors. With some exceptions, of course!

[@michaelreilly3513]

You are an idiot.

[@rah62]

What an absolute load of homophobic crap.

[@nataliazakula3400]

Lesbian, huh? It must have been that Spencer’s obviously female nature that drew her in.

[@hectormanuel9793]

@@nataliazakula3400 oviously, you're behind the times about Hollywood celebrities. Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy were closed homosexuals. Their relationship was an intellectual one that became very emotional over time. Do some research and you will find that the truth behind their relationship has been widely written about. Maybe, they were bi-sexual like Howard Hughes was, but I doubt it! If, they had lived in a different time with nothing to lose they would have been living an open gay life. Please understand, that for a long time, I too believed that most actors in Hollywood were straight, but having worked for people in the industry who had been around that period in filmmaking was an eye opener!

[@nataliazakula3400]

hector manuel I don’t usually research these things since one’s persuasions aren’t my focus, but yes I followed up and am caught up on Tracy. She must have deeply loved and respected him as a friend, as her emotion toward him is always of total adoration. Grant, stanwick, Hepburn, Garbo, all obvious. Ah well, I’ll still keep my crush on Tracy although his spirit cannot return the favor.

[@MisterMan7516]

Hepburn was a professional pain in the ass.

[@browningbelgium1705]

The movie could have been a masterpiece and one of the greats, but was permanently scarred and overshadowed by crude language that was so unnecessary.

[@CMOT101]

Grow up.

[@browningbelgium1705]

@@CMOT101 I did and had a much better upbringing than you.

[@autumnconway3642]

Congratulations on your birthday! 110 this year?

[@LeonAllanDavis]

Nonsense...I do not believe there was an ulterior motive behind Hepburn's costume flip. She was just being bratty. Imperious. She wasn't "testing" the director's mettle. She wasn't going to do anything to risk the picture. When she was shooting, she was the consummate pro. Besides, offers weren't exactly rolling in for her any more than they were for Fonda. He was grateful for the work, and so was she... Hepburn had a well-deserved reputation for putting up a front. For being abrasive. But that was just the way she was. Lots of people who met her for the first time said she was blustery and off-putting for the first couple minutes and after that, perfectible charming. A lot of that was probably because she never came out. She defended her privacy to the bitter end.

[@glennfromthebronx]

fyi- Billy was talking about the FIRST day of shooting only. KAte DID have a reputation...and BIlly referred back to Cukor's first day working with her: she DID "test" her directors...arguably for the sake of the film/project. GIven her earliest film (and stage) history...who can "blame" her?

[@TubenIt83]

Hepburn and Fonda both won Oscars for this film.

[@jamesmcinnis208]

What was the test supposed to prove, that she could push around the staff because she's a living legend? Yuck. I would have treated her like someone suffering from dementia because it sounds like that's how she was behaving.

[@machovoce6826]

Strange how people who understand nothing are always anxious to share their opinions.

[@namj8145]

The test wasn't to push staff around, but to make sure staff WOULDN'T get pushed around. She had to make sure the director wasn't going to give in to her simply because she was a 'star'. When she knew he was standing strong, she agreed to his request. I'm sure she had experienced many yes men in her career, and knew that was a problem in getting good work done. Williams said he felt Kate would have Rydell off the picture if he caved in to her demands., which may have been an overstatement. But she probably learned from experience she had to play nasty for a bit, to know she could trust the rest of the shoot.

[@jamesmcinnis208]

@@namj8145 Good point. I hadn't seen it from that perspective. Thanks for weighing in.

[@jamesmcinnis208]

@@machovoce6826 Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you are incapable of a discussion. I'll waste no more time.