Bioenno got me... I need your help!

Battery Torture Test with the Bioenno 3aH battery - I'm pretty shocked at the results and I need your help.
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[@MattHeere]

If you assume FT8 is 50/50 TX/RX you have (.5 *.45A) + (.5 * 2.31A) = 1.38A draw on average. With a 3AHr battery that's a little over 2:10. The extra 27 minutes comes either from the battery being a bit more than 3AHr (likely with a Bioenno) or a slightly lower duty cycle than truly 50/50 (likely because it doesn't transmit for 100% of the transmit cycle) or small inaccuracies in the current measurements.

[@temporarilyoffline]

This is good!

[@bradl2636]

Matt has provided a good framework for the estimate of the battery life. An in-line or clamp amp meter or a battery wattmeter would probably show the duty cycle pretty accurately.

[@ralphnunn3]

And, even then, it's not a straight 50/50 when it comes to FT8. You have those 2 seconds at the end of the 15 second transmit cycle where it listens. So, if you factor that in (13 seconds of transmit, and 17 seconds of receive), you're about 44% transmit, and 56% receive. So, that could account for the extra 27 minutes that Matt is talking about here.

[@gregrush6570]

Bam. Right there it is. Matt beat me to it. So much for my EE contribution lol!

[@dougdaniels]

I am very pleased with my Bioenno batteries. I'll continue to spend the extra dollars for the quality.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Exactly! I've got some tricks coming out on the bioenno battery too! Stay tuned.

[@victorcharlie7491]

I started out at 1 volt when I woke up this morning but after that first cup of java I'm running at 12 volts strong straight through lunch, great video Steve tnx bro.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Coffee gets it done!

[@tcfitz]

Thanks!

[@temporarilyoffline]

TCFitz! Thanks brother!

[@MikeN2MAK]

I'm not good with the battery maths but I like the test. I've got 3 Bioennos and have had a great experience with them. Thanks for the video.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Apaprently I'm not either!

[@larrytaylor7753]

Love Bioenno

[@temporarilyoffline]

Me Too!

[@h2osmokey]

I'm using 5a 14v lipo commonly used in R/C vehicles. Very convenient with the IC705.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Nice!

[@FragFragify]

Any brand you recommend ?

[@brucelasley1244]

It really depends on what you were trying to test. It seems your test was actually a test of radio run time for the mode you were running. If you really want to test the battery capacity you need to know the full charge voltage, the cutoff voltage and a known load (current draw).

[@temporarilyoffline]

Right - I was testing the battery runtime attached to this radio using a mode I am likely to use. I was looking to see how long I can expect in the field and if I would need a bigger battery to get my activations done. I was expecting the external battery connector to perform differently than the internal battery connector and we have since found out that the user manual is "wrong" by today's chemistries.

[@okierebel3278]

I power my Xeigu G90 with the 3amp hour battery. I average 6 hrs between charges. I am going to get a larger battery for POTA. Winter Field day I made 20 contacts in that 6 hrs at the full 20 watt output power of the radio. I love the Bioenno battery.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Its good stuff!

[@thuff3207]

I would look at cell resistance vs battery pack resistance. I would think the cells in a pack would be higher. Now 2x longer would be interesting. Now add in TX vs RX that timing vs other tests could be different.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Thanks!

[@barrybogart5436]

I've been using Milwaukee M12 power tool batteries for some time. Now they offer 3A in the small package (1/3 of a banana). It is just 12V, not 13+ but t powers my KX3 at 10W for several hours, although I didn't measure it. As long as my little laptop lasts, FT8.

[@temporarilyoffline]

That sounds like a good match

[@cprogrck]

Since both batteries have the same voltage the bigger one must have cells connected in parallel. Therefore, in practice the usable amperage is slightly higher because at the lowest discharge states you have two battery cells working together instead of one. Even though we talk in average wattage when turning on or off any device there's usually peaks or spikes. In my experience those peaks are better absorbed by multiple cells at low charge levels.

[@temporarilyoffline]

That makes sense

[@GentiluomoStraniero]

Build a battery pack with several 12Ahr Bienno batteries wired in parallel. I'm also building a 150w Solar Panel Array with built in Solar tracker to keep the panels aimed at the sun. These will feed a 10Amp renogy charge controller and feed a 60w triband ham radio, an evolve laptop and a 6 station charger for hand helds. All of it except the 48Ah battery pack will fit in a mid sized pelican case and weight will not exceed 45lbs. Now to procure two carbon fiber tripods....one to mount the self aligning solar array and the other for the triband antenna. 65% of solar panel charge rate would be my break even point vs consumption @ 50% radio duty cycle. So Even at 25% duty cycle, I'd remain net positive battery charge.

[@temporarilyoffline]

That sounds like a cool project. Check out some of my other battery and solar videos. I love making battery kits.

[@jamesabc372]

will that void the bioenno battery warranty?😮 I don't know.

[@temporarilyoffline]

@@jamesabc372 nope, the only way to do that would be too much current draw on the barrel jack

[@GentiluomoStraniero]

@@jamesabc372 I'm not concerned with battery warranties.

[@franklentz5388]

It’s probably the label, most of the labels Amp Hour ratings are a guarantee of power, the cells they construct it from are probably pretty decent cells.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Bioenno makes good batteries!

[@KeepEvery1Guessing]

Were those estimates from the video where you added transmit and receive currents when you should have time averaged them? I.e.; you need: battery_capacity / ( (i_receive * fraction_of_time_receive) + (i_transmit * fraction_of_time_transmit) ) = estimated_operating_time

[@temporarilyoffline]

Yes! That's part of the problem - the other part is that the radio changes draw with battery voltage

[@xsdev]

When you did your original calculations you assumed 65% receive @ .45 amps and 35% transmit @ 2.31 amps. Then you summed them to 2.76 amps and used that figure to divide your 3 amp hour battery. That would assume a you're transmitting and receiving the entire time. You'd have to do 3 ah / [(.45 * .65) + (2.31 * .35) ], or 3 amp hours / 1.101 amps ~= 2 hours 15 ish minutes. At least, that's my best guess as to what went wrong with the estimation. Obviously, the actual power usage overtime may not align with the computed estimates.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Thanks! That helps!

[@temporarilyoffline]

@@sfarcus I've got one of those. I need to figure out how to get it to not shut off when the battery dies - I think there is a way.

[@jakep5121]

Becouse... Science! 😮

[@temporarilyoffline]

Right! I F'in LOVE SCIENCE!!!

[@kg4foo]

I am thinking max power transfer theorem. I don't know this, it's thinking outloud at you. So put another way the other also-ran's have an internal resistance that doesn't match the load (ft81x) But the lifePo4 with the premium choice of cells I suspect it is probably lower internal resistance. I would like a video showing the smallest portablest way to keep them properly charged. Like if say I had two one on the KX2 and the other on a roll-up solar panel and rf quiet solar charge controller. For the man-portable or sota context.

[@temporarilyoffline]

I use the bioenno charger when I need to charge my LiFEPO4s - works great! If you're charging multiple batteries, charge them one at a time until they are all balanced - then you can drain and charge them as a unit connected as one larger battery. If you ever disconnect the group, just repeat those original steps to balance them.

[@nine7295]

That "where did the current go in the 817" website shows that the lower the voltage, the lower the current used in both TX and even RX. In other words, the radio is less efficient at higher voltage. However, a battery goes from high to low voltage while still performing, it's not constant. But your estimation set it up as a constant, and that's why it's off. Another reason is that a good battery manufacturer will under-report the specs and if your battery is very new but already broken in, then it's going to have higher capacity than rated . Only bad manufacturers or brands would over state their specs. So this is the second reason.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Thanks, good points!

[@thogevoll]

If you need a fan should it not also be powered from the battery too?

[@temporarilyoffline]

Depends on the parameters of the test for sure. The fan was for radio health, not power drain.

[@owlcricker-k7ulm]

How old is your battery and how much use has it had? Did your calculations allow of listening time?

[@temporarilyoffline]

This battery is a couple of years old and did a fantastic job! Bioenno makes good batteries - yes, my improper calcs did include listening time ;-)

[@owlcricker-k7ulm]

@@temporarilyoffline they always out perform for me too

[@larrytaylor7753]

Not sure what transmitter duty cycle you used in your calculation, but that might be it.

[@temporarilyoffline]

I'll going to compile all of the answers in a future video.

[@geod3589]

I used those batteries to power my game cameras, better than putting 8 AA's in them.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Exactly!

[@ericklein5097]

You need to test at a 0.2C rate for the battery at 25 degrees Celsius. So the 3000mAh should be tested at 600mAX12V which is roughly 7.2W. That's the industry standard. When batteries get warm (30-40 Celsius) they will give about 105% to 110% of rated capacity. Controlling for temperature is hard but it causes funky results when people put cells in slot style charger/testers and don't have a fan running over the top of the cells. The two inside cells will typically test higher because they get warmer than the outside cells even if they are identical cells that should pull near identical capacity.

[@ericklein5097]

Voltage drop at higher loads is also going to play a role. If a battery has lower IR it will be less affected by voltage drop (won't drop as much). Use Ohm's Law to determine voltage drop based on DC IR.

[@ericklein5097]

Also should get a wattmeter to put in between the battery and the device you're powering. I saw them on sale 2 for $18. They are "rated" for 150A which is absolutely bullshit. The more expensive original PowerWerx wattmeter might have been capable of that (but doubt due to the 12 or 10AWG cables) but the knockoffs that go for $12 each probably shouldn't be run over 50A continuous if using 10AWG. I would guess you're not running a steady 6W, there's probably some variation in power draw but I know nothing about radio gear A 12V 3Ah battery is 36Wh so it should have lasted 6 hours.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Thanks for the info!

[@n2jmb]

Just wondering if the fan was also blowing on the battery?

[@temporarilyoffline]

A little yeah

[@Trent28888]

To test a battery capacity properly u use a constant load say a light and use a battery capacity tester

[@temporarilyoffline]

Definitely, that would test the battery, but not the battery under load of the radio which is the info I need.

[@hcy0]

It's an 817 or 818? I'm wondering how you get 6W out of the 817.

[@temporarilyoffline]

818

[@RobertLeeAtYT]

Why is this surprising? Ft8 has a 50% duty cycle. So it's really like you were keyed down CW for about an hour. The battery voltage drops toward BMS cutoff at a bit below 10v over that duration. While the radio is configured for 6w TX, actual output power drops along with the supply. So while this video shows practical endurance of this pack, the methodology isn't right for measuring actual pack capacity.

[@temporarilyoffline]

Right, there were "unknown unknowns" in the original calculation - the radio changes power levels at voltage levels and also outputs more power than the manual says it should. Practical tests always win out over theory. But theory gets you close.

[@RobertLeeAtYT]

@@temporarilyoffline Yep. I used to run a 30AH, 3S custom LiPo pack for in car Kenwood V71. It got used heavily at 50W tx setting and would last a week. It was pretty obvious towar Thursday when the pack gets closer to exhaustion. I've found the easiest way to track pack capacity over time is through the charger. I used one designed for RC packs. It integrated instantaneous charge power into actual total charge energy over the recharge cycle. Take 85% of that number and you get actual pack capacity. If you wanted really accurate numbers, configured it for discharge followed by charge.

[@temporarilyoffline]

@@RobertLeeAtYT Roger Roger

[@MicroOutdoors]

Watts don't matter batteries are not sized to watts, they are sized to amp draw. 3000 Mah is 3 Ah. (3000 ÷ 1000 mah to ah) so from this time of 2 hours, you pulled .66 amps for 2 hours. --- so figure out your amp draw from your watts output. Then you can accurately determine your battery size needs for the time desired.

[@temporarilyoffline]

I'm gonna have to apply this!

[@ericklein5097]

Yes they are. Watt Hours. EVE's testing data uses watt hours. When they give the amp hour rating they just take the watt hour measurement and divide it by 3.2V, the nominal voltage.

[@dwatson4]

It’s a well known fact that 5 out of 4 people have problems with math.😊

[@temporarilyoffline]

I'm innocent, I swear! Wait, wrong line-up.

[@JT-py9lv]

Oh Oh.....

[@temporarilyoffline]

Right!

[@DonzLockz]

That battery is tiny!... I got nuffin.🤷‍♂️😮

[@temporarilyoffline]

Tiny, but PACKED!

[@verystupidhandle]

No fire yet??😮

[@temporarilyoffline]

Oddly, no. I'm waiting though!

[@2EOGIY]

Charging time matters. The lower the charging current, the more energy is stored. Not without influence is the fact that the battery was kept at the optimal temperature during discharge.

[@temporarilyoffline]

There seems to be a lot of factors and I'm getting a crash course!

[@ericklein5097]

Charging time does not matter. As long as you charge to 3.6 or 3.65 per cell and then allow the pack to CV down to 0.05C for current cutoff a LiFePO4 battery will be at 100% State of Charge. You can do that with A123 26650's by charging at 4C/10A until it hits CV and that will be much faster than your standard 26650 charged at 1C. Obviously most LiFePO4 cells that are 26650's can't support a 4C charging current so its a little unfair but a good example.

[@mikegianfrancesco9431]

how about 7300 at 10 watts

[@temporarilyoffline]

I bet the 7300 consumes more power at idle.

[@SP5XTF]

Hello my ham friend i having a better power solutions: USB-C powerbank + USB trigger with direct plug to radio for 12v or 15v i use Powerbank Baseus 30000 mAh 65W PD 3.0. This is best solution for portable use radio. U can always change powerbank in a car or home with regular usc-c charger.

[@temporarilyoffline]

You're not wrong kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWetoZ2hgdSoe6s

[@rorygriffin8905]

More impressive FT817 has major draw on receive

[@temporarilyoffline]

It does, yeah!