Can Builders Destroy Work of Non-Paying Customers?

Can a builder destroy or dismantle work when a customer doesn't pay?
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[@notpoliticallycorrect1303]

I fitted a clutch and central locking components to a shopkeepers transit Luton a few years back, we'd agreed a price and I undertook the repairs where it had broken down in order to save recovery costs for him. Upon completion he tried to offer me far less than agreed plus some alcohol from his shop. This amounted to around £15 more than I had paid for the parts, after a stand off in which he essentially threatened me with his dog I started removing my parts. He called the police and by the time they arrived I had removed the clutch and after it being explained that until he'd paid for them that they were still my parts, he eventually reluctantly relented.What resulted was him paying me to refit the clutch again😊 plus one of the latches I had also removed by then. It cost him an extra £190 over the original bill, and now he has to take it around forty miles away to the nearest other garage.

[@gdfggggg]

Excellent

[@Beatlefan67]

Well done!

[@six7529]

I love a happy ending

[@thomasandrewmcgonigal5150]

Well done for standing your ground.

[@Knight_Jos]

Good thing i wasn't one of them cops, i'd have arrested you for criminal damage. I get your point and i agree with him having to pay for it. but once affixed to a property they are part of that property. should have taken him to court over it. and always make sure you have agreements and the like IN WRITING. Also he could have reported it and you'd have lost far more then the costs of losing out on payment.

[@timduck8506]

I've been on site and the customer strung the builder along for month's by saying I'll pay at the end of the month then refused to pay for the new 2 story extension claim it was more then what was agreed and was defective. (this was during covid when prices increased on a weekly bases). Well we were there to build internal wall's/plasterboard and flooring and saw nothing wrong with the brick work so when we see the customer doing this to the builder we all walked off site and passed the word round to other traders about the customer not paying. Took the customer a good year and half to get the extension finished and cost them a arm and a leg. Good news is the builder got his money in the end but the hardship he suffered for those month's are hart breaking for anyone in the trade.

[@martinsmith6049]

Staged payments and don't work for you know who

[@donaldcarr8766]

I know of a landscape gardener who took a sledge hammer to a garden wall he had built, which was not paid for, and I don't blame him one bit.

[@catabaticanabatic3800]

I know someone who did 14 months inside for going back to a property and removing the tiles from a bathroom / toilet that he had just finished. Criminal damage. No trespass law where I come from. He never got a penny back from them.

[@joline2730]

Proper plastering (not just a light skim) takes about TWO WEEKS to dry out properly. In the first day or so the TOP layer dries from the room heat ... (goes light pink) but there is still damp behind this top layer and you must wait for the damp to rise to the surface to dry out properly. I know, I have watched it day after day ... if you tile or paint over this wet plaster the damp will either be trapped behind, or go through the wall into another room backing on to the plastered room (or wall). This gives the result that the room will ALWAYS remain damp and cold. *WAIT* is my strong advice. Builders will always say it only takes a cuppla days - they are not going to hang around to see it. I HAVE !

[@fieldpictures1306]

When I lived in Texas, a contractor in a payment dispute backed up a concrete truck to a developer's expensive convertible and filled it with concrete. I think the developer had filed for bankruptcy so this was his only means of retaliation. Wild place.

[@JBobjork]

Did he get any money after destroying a vehicle that could have been sold? (because I don't think you can own an expensive car if you're bankrupt? Or was it just for revenge?

[@fieldpictures1306]

@@JBobjork Seen many businessmen somehow hold onto expensive houses and cars after bankruptcy. Possibly declared corporate bankruptcy.

[@paulthomas8262]

@@fieldpictures1306 Trump did it it 8 times. Chapter 11.

[@paulthomas8262]

@@fieldpictures1306 corporate bankruptcy is called insolvency the very purpose of incorporation is to separate personal assets from corporate assets and have shareholders money work as a single entity. However there is supposed to be rules and conditions for insolvency. In a function ing system someone like Trump would be barred from being a CEO and receiving finance. The first time for a set period, but with repeated behaviour permanently, and possibly a custodial sentence (this is a separate thing from misrepresenting the value of business).

[@shirleyswaine4701]

I had a builder give me a quote for some work at the beginning of the year and he told me the well off commissioning big jobs were the worst at paying their bills, often not bothering with a final instalment, hoping the builder well just give up on pursuing them.

[@waynep040]

Tough one they have to breach civil law and trespass, but yes they can all tradesmen are good with hammers I’ve seen it done. Right or wrong I stand with the victim builder or customer.

[@georgef822]

Presuming he was hired for plastering, the plaster hasn't even dried yet, so to smash it up before it's dried is just stupid. The problem is people rarely do their due diligence on both sides for this kind of thing and there's so many dodgy cowboy builders out there that people are skeptical to just hand everything over, especially before the job is done. I've known scenarios where people have had building work started at a pre-agreed price and then the price started changing as it progressed and after stages had been completed without agreement of the homeowner...Then the builder claimed he hadn't been paid when it's not quite true.

[@thewoodster8607]

Not all tradesmen are angels and neither are all customers.

[@deanrogers1843]

Can you do a video that explains the upcoming online safety bill - specifically how it relates to the sharing of intimate images without consent and the creation of deep fake images of another person that are liable to be seen as indecent? I think the government has made a very positive step in unifying our law with that in Scotland, yet the communications (and therefore deterrent) of the new passages has been woeful. Love the channel .

[@patrickrose1221]

It's a shame that the courts don't force the ' late payers' to sit and listen to the builders wife, when she's waving bills in his face screaming " HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO PAY THESE"? 😉

[@laratheplanespotter]

When we had our extension done the contractor didn’t pay the scaffolding company so the company put their tools on the roof then took the scaffolding away. Contractor then took off with £11k of our money and disappeared of the face of the Earth. He didn’t like it when my dad ultimately revealed that he’s a structural, electrical and mechanical engineer so knew that the original contractor had fudged the project and made us have to cancel the kitchen order. We never did find out where he disappeared to

[@nimmichagger165]

It’s not even dried yet! Give him a few days, ffs!

[@ronnoman61]

The old chestnut, builders not getting paid for work done. From a builders point of view, never except work from someone not in your local area. There is a reason they are calling you and it's not that they want to expand their horizons and meet new people.

[@marksouthern9713]

I know of builder who went to court to get a court order to reclaim unpaid bricks he got it and turned up with a Jcb to dig them out. The house owner got his cash out very quickly for some reason. 🙂

[@King-Arthur-The-First]

Some people can’t get work done because the whole community has a horrible, reputation for arguing about the agreed cost after the work was done well, or trying to get extra work for the original cost or withholding payment at the end for no good reason so they don’t get work done unless they pay in full upfront which they never want to do. They had no intention of paying in full EVER.

[@duplicitouskendoll9402]

I had a landscaper do a crap job on my patio. Gave him 8 weeks and dozens of opportunities to rectify the problems with limited success. I've paid him the full bill regardless so he can't say I didn't pay (he genuinely thinks he's done a good job). At the same time I've gathered 3 quotes from other trades to put his work right, two in excess of what he charged, and had an inspection done to confirm the shoddy work isn't compliant. He'll be getting taken to court for the full amount quoted to fix, plus the cost of inspection, plus compensation for the hassle. I'm gonna try and get all of my money back with interest and in the meantime he can't come and 'take back his materials'. Sole trader, not a limited company, so nowhere to hide lol.

[@63mckenzie]

Plaster looks terrible until it dries.

[@LosAngelesRaiders]

The problem here is; whilst the law is there is there to protect, what it doesn't take into account is the time and money consumed by opening legal proceedings, hence why builders take things into their own hands for quick and easy results. This *may* also deters others from trying to hoodwink builders into doing work and then not getting paying up. Yes, it is wrong from a law perspective, granted, but with legal proceedings taking money and time, some smaller firms just cannot sustain the wait and price proceedings will ask for. Many firms unfortunately literally survive from job to job.

[@andrewb2475]

That plaster's been up only two days, you have to allow the customer more time to pay his bill..............my plumber gives customers 1 month!

[@mattbrown4833]

We always see these videos from the perspective of the builders, rarely do we get the non-paying customers’ sides. I’ve had some absolutely shocking work done that I came very close to not paying for, but instead opted to show the guy who recommended him the shoddy work, as well as pics of it being ripped out and redone a few weeks later, knowing full well he would pass on what had happened. Sometimes people try not to pay because they are scumbags, but a lot of the time it’s because the work is massively substandard. Even if smashing it up were “justified” it shows a massively unprofessional attitude that would be a huge red flag.

[@heatherbaker8596]

If the plaster was still wet then he hadn't finished the job, because there is still another sanding down that needs to happen once the plaster is dry, either way 7 -10 days minimum should be giver (it used to be 30 days but as things have tightened up that time seems to have shortened,) after they receive request for payment. This just seems like vandalism to me at this point.

[@angr3819]

My father did it if it didn't mean breaking in. Scrapped plaster off walls. My stepfather used to open his big sheet with chimney ash and ask if they wanted it back. They paid up 😁

[@dubsy4835]

Is there not also a burglary there..? Sec 9(1)b.. enters as a trespasser with the intention of causing criminal damage? Or am I way out of date.? Great, informative videos, by the way.👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

[@wotexpat9367]

Builders are rip off merchants in the UK. Never once have I had a good interaction with one. Block the road, low class and have zero clue or quality control. UK 'tradies' are shite. Change my mind...

[@JasperDaniels-w5f]

Perhaps it was your attitude towards them?

[@rwkh10]

I really really love your videos/ advice. And always follow you. I now have to educate you. When the general skilled builder/ mechanic/ electrician/ carpenter/plasterer/ ground worker/ bricklayer/ Larbourer/ Roofer/floor layer/ plumber/ sorry my fellow trader's if I have left you out. The backbone of the UK relies on us. If you earn millions in the financial fraud industry you will always rely on us. But unfortunately you treat us like shite.

[@johnbroadbent9034]

this happed to me a long time ago and the police were involved but in the dispute the police said that theft of time and is part of it, a good outcome from this

[@DaveCorbey]

The answer to the question posed in the video title is YES. As I can clearly see it happening with my own eyes.

[@richardmartin8841]

Technically the plaster hadn't dried so therefore was not part of the property. Ask yourself this you buy a house you get there and the cement is wet still. Is that house built? Or is it yet to dry? My mate is a builder and it a circus out there. Builders usually are paid on completion which the builder has to pay! If the customer refuses payment Go builders take your work back the customer is not always right. And paying a court to get what they should of is insane.

[@tomw8647]

In the US, it depends..... Mechanics liens are the typical mechanisms where the debt is attached to the property and must be satisfied before any property transfers. Further, 26 states allow the supplier to place a mechanics lien against the property for unpaid contractor invoices for materials use on the project. I have heard of and seen a few occurrences of removal of the materials installed if they can be reasonable salvaged. An example is removing placed sod on a lawn when the owner refuses to pay.

[@traceymitchell6619]

Never even gave it a chance to dry. Not only will they now not get paid but their reputation will have been harmed too. We don't know the circumstances but surely a good, reputable business would allow at least a few extra days to receive payment before doing this? Probably a cowboy anyway.

[@zarcon7108]

In a civilised country it would be very, very simple. You would be able to call the police and the customer (or thief) would be charged with fraud or theft.

[@phoenixxavier9615]

Unfortunately here in the UK that is just not going to happen. The bobbies who we pay to do this sort of thing are far too busy investigating the hurt feelings of snowflakes & other nonsense.

[@brianmurphy8790]

Non-paying customers should be thankful the only thing being smashed up is the work and not their face. Make customers sign a contract stating all their property becomes yours should they fail to pay.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Really, because once you hit the client that is assault, and if done with a tool that can lead to more severe charges.

[@1977JohnBoy]

end of the day if you aint paying cos you dont like the work then you should be happy for them to smash the work down you didnt like, and if you then have a problem you must of liked it and wanted a freebie

[@Lloyd1885]

There is also the angle of obtaining goods or services without the means to pay

[@Chequr_Prostate]

The biggest problem with small builders is 1. They do not provide a written quotation along with their terms and conditions. 2. They don’t get a signed contract 3. They don’t provide a quotation for extras along with and agreement to proceed. 4. They want cash payments, many times a percentage upfront. 5. The work is generally shoddy if your lucky.

[@rhwoodwork119]

My friend, after completing a large painting job by a wealthy client, was under paid by half and the client refused to pay more. So when he went to collect his tools and tidy up, he brought a hole cutter and a humble potato. Cut a hole in the pristine garden, dropped the spud and covered it with the sod. Sometimes its better to take the loss and get simple revenge.

[@johnjephcote7636]

What if the builder fails to complete the work and the customer who has agreed payment has his/her house ruined (perhaps because no protection was provided when the roof was partly off)? The builder cannot be sued if he/she has insufficient capital and the house insurance will not help and the house owner has not the wherewithal to take legal action anyway. Is it a case of Caveat Emptor?

[@timduck8506]

So if a builder gets a court judgment who pay's the enforcement cost's when trying to get the money back? builder or Customer

[@FatHead1979]

They're added to the blance owed by the debtor. This is all well and good IF you can successfully enforce a judgement, otherwise it's like p1ssing into the wind!

[@brendandarkside1207]

Came for the comedy video stayed for the plastering tips in the comments 😂

[@pilkipilki4472]

can you put into contract " I have the right to gain access to remove goods if not paid"

[@Sgt_Bill_T_Co]

Would it not be possible to get a high court order(I think that is what it's called) and thus have bailiffs call to 'remove property to the value of' ? Secondly could the builder not rave removed property of the owner's to the value of and leave a note as well as informing the owner they have 'set off' against the debt?

[@TheAustinfuller]

Basically you won't get justice unless you have lots of money to spend..

[@Clodhopping]

It's a pity that a disgruntled customer isn't allowed to destroy the house of a shoddy builder who made a mess of the work they were paid for...😅

[@bobrose7900]

Once in the ground, it becomes the ground (the Latin equivalent). Incorporated materials, essentially bricks and mortar (apologies to the timber frame guys) cannot be removed. So this plasterer is completely in the wrong. However, at a domestic level, this goes on all the time, where one man type jobbing builders do work based on a verbal quote, no contract, prepared on the back of a cigarette packet, and the price is verbally agreed with no intention to pay. We avoid domestic work like the plague as a result. However, for every rogue consumer there is a rogue contractor and a lot of the time it's sorted out with fists, or rather the threat of. I will say though, contrary to the impression KZbin gives, this is fairly rare. When a builder is faced with it, the legal option can be just too time consuming and the cost of employing debt collectors/solicitors can soon out way the debt being pursued and any ability to pay, even with a contract.

[@chrisbradley977]

You have lots of obligations and duties to the law but you are very much on your own if you need something from the law.

[@markrobinson1458]

I fear you've given the non paying types a not so good idea 😖👍

[@OwtDaftUK]

Going the legal rought just puts money in the pockets of the real criminals. People like you.

[@markc7440]

Surely they can't legally become part of the property until paid for. If I went and pinched some paint from the store, then used it all to paint rooms in my home, and it was all done before the Police came round I'm still going to get charge over the theft aren't I as I can't justify it not being returnable as it's part of the house. So for me if someone hasn't paid for the materials it doesn't matter if now on the walls etc, it's not the non-paying customer's property and can be reclaimed by the rightful owner.

[@Chrysilla_QuantumHealing]

Good insight 👌

[@terrymurphy501]

Never piss off a plasterer.

[@Sebastian-pc1qf]

If someone buys a pair of shoes in a shop but says i am not paying for them are they allowed to walk out the shop without paying?

[@gdfggggg]

Do a day rate. Get paid at the end of the week. If they don’t pay, you stop. Worse case, you’ve only lost a weeks money.

[@leanneclare3750]

Reminds me of the car filled with petrol case.

[@paulgibbons2320]

Pikey Justice is trending .

[@jadehadfield7626]

yes they can dismantle their work if payment is refused if they are already in the property not like he breaking back in to void the work as they refuse to pay .

[@newforestpixie5297]

I didn’t want to give away a plumbing trick & give non payers a break 😁

[@iamjoehalenbeck500]

actually you can if you build it dont get paid well up in scotland metal worker did railings and fence idiot refused to pay went got a lawyer and documents to remove it all so if you pay for it and they refuse yes you can go take it all back out you paid for it

[@jojojacques810]

Can someone help me out please!! What do you call a law where the penalty is automatic and there is no right to a defence etc??? It’s totally gone out of my head!! 🤦‍♀️

[@grahamcomstive9179]

So basically, the law is in favour of non paying customers and criminizing builders who exact revenge ? WTF is this right and just !!

[@oddjobtriumph1635]

...if you haven't paid for it.... then it's not yours .. Not interested in what courts say ....courts didn't put the Blood, sweat and tears as well as cost into a job that hasn't been paid for.....not paid for....take it back or smash it up. sometimes the look on someones face who hasn't paid , can be satisfying enough .

[@ihateunicorns867]

Sounds like someone needs to work on their PR. Imagine a restaurant showing staff spitting into someone's pasta with the title 'When customers are rude to the waiters'. List of companies to avoid updated.

[@Number6_]

The ceiling is not the only thing plastered here. How does he hope to sue?

[@barbaradownie3265]

DAMAGING UNPAID CONSTRUCTION COULD DAMAGE THE HOMEOWNER'S PROPERTY

[@zxr250]

They best pay for the construction, then. Or at the very least set up a payment plan if they couldn't afford it outright (which raises the question as to why they had the plastering done if the latter was the case).

[@scotspaul]

tough pay your bills

[@EnochPowellsLibrarian]

PAY FOR THE WORK THEN BARBARA !

[@Droningonuk]

Agrevated trespass is a joke it should be called agrevated recovery of property.

[@ChrisLee-yr7tz]

Looked to me that he was just giving it a final trowelling.

[@st200ol]

Why do we all have to pay 50% of the bill now before any work is started. Years ago we were told to never pay anything before we were happy with the work, now due to a few non-paying low-life’s we all have to pay up front. Makes my blood boil.

[@jeremyfoster6942]

Why should the builder bear the cost of all the initial materials, there are any number of trade bodies, like checkatrade, ect, that give a customer some reassurance as to the reliability/ quality of the builder, where as the builder has to take the customer on trust, to not perfect by any means but few things are, you Don't have to pay some money up front, but you probably won't get a builder to do your work!

[@clivewilliams3661]

What fool pays up front for building work? The only time I have certified payment to the contractor for items not yet installed was where a specialist had constructed the units off-site and was awaiting installation. In that case the items were all recorded and labelled as paid for so that if the supplier or contractor went bust the client could legitimately claim the goods. No legitimate and sound builder will ask for payment up front.

[@jeremyfoster6942]

@@clivewilliams3661 that attitude says it all really

[@clivewilliams3661]

@@jeremyfoster6942 Its not an attitude but a professional comment based on 50 years experience of the building industry on both sides of the fence, as well as being involved in litigation as expert witness.

[@jeremyfoster6942]

@@clivewilliams3661 mmmm really, ? Naaaah

[@paulbeddows6014]

That is so wrong if you paid for the materials and used the materials you should be allowed to remove those material as you own them till the hirer pays up this country is a shambles we reward bad behaviour. Only safe solution is all tradespersons unite and do no work until money is paid up front.

[@emcarver8983]

The work is still wet. Most genuine artisans send a bill for the remaining money owed, when the work is done, giving the customer time to arrange payment. I highly suspect this is a local yob working on the fly. I've seen it many, many times. The fact they gleefully advertise the criminal damage underlines the thug mentality. I hope he gets done for that.

[@YouTubesucksdonkeyballs]

as long as there is no criminal trespass charge, will it not just end up with one claim vs. another claim = settlement? And in case of settlement one would assume customer is left with the damage and no bill = still kind of a win for the contractor..

[@phisit8813]

You can obey the law and lost evey hours you've worked hard for.... or you can things into your own hand and teach these people a lesson. Its NOT CRIMINAL DAMGE if you paid for the material and owns these material.

[@DanielleStrachan-b7m]

There are professional non-payers all around.

[@davidhayes4814]

All interesting, but I guess predictable. An Architect friend of mine told me in confidence some years ago that a few clients never paid for work. One in particular, a wealthy older woman, refused to pay on a matter of principle and did the rounds on firms. Taking legal proceedings would be time consuming and very expensive, which she knew. Such self-entitled folk would never regard themselves as parasites or criminals. They never do.

[@Inkling777]

I wonder if all the clients she'd cheated could file a lawsuit in common. Their charges would carry more weight, each would have to pay less, and her total cost, should she lose, would be higher.

[@warrenstanford7240]

Will cross the wrong person one day who won’t care is she is an old woman or not……🫣

[@YouTellemFrosk]

I know of this happening too. Wealthy women using high end small businesses to redecorate her home, using expensive paints and time. When it came to being paid she telephoned the police and claimed criminal harassment. Rich bitch

[@pathfinderlight]

On what principle would a woman refuse to pay for work that had been done to her property? Also, the best workmen around where I live demand payment in paper cheque every week. Materials cost to be paid up front.

[@gustavmeyrink_2.0]

Somebody will eventually take her to court, she will lose and have to pay everybody's legal fees.

[@69waveydavey]

My dad now retired used this method quite a few times, it was the only thing that sorted the problem out. Yes if you are a legal professional it all sounds great, months/years of paperwork if that's your job it's not a problem. The last example I can come up with, an extension on a house in a very "Prestigious area" full of pseudo millionaires. Stopped answering phone calls, stopped answering the door. Turned up with JCB, they went to the bank for the money.

[@JBobjork]

But he only turned up, didn't actually destroy the house. Because that would be stupid in many ways and would not have made anyone pay and he would have wasted more time (and money) tearing it down. Just like this guy did. He will never get any money for that after he smashed it, and he could have used that time and energy for A. Other jobs 2. Filing papers and let someone else do the job of getting them to pay (you dont have to do that job yourself)

[@eddiecatflap3838]

you are talking like an idiot and obviously have never done building/construction work@@JBobjork

[@scottsound4711]

@@JBobjorklool shut

[@thesaltybrit9321]

So. I mean I'd be on your side but if everyone took that route a sizable % of people are going to end up in court. Especially if the customer knows the law and doesn't relent.

[@TheRealD4]

@@JBobjork Ever heard of principles? They're worth far more than money. Sometimes you have to teach a lesson even if it means you're out of pocket because it gives moral satisfaction that earning from other jobs would not remedy. And you're a fool if you think going to court and enriching lawyers is always the answer instead. They won't work on a no-win no-fee, so you end up throwing more money to win the case and only be awarded part of your costs. Then to rub salt in the wounds you have to ENFORCE the DEBT which is loads more hassle with no guarantees. Rant over.

[@fredbloggs5902]

The most hilarious video I’ve seen is when a guy refused to pay some scaffolders so they built scaffolding all around his car until he paid them.

[@fredbloggs5902]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXqZkJ9ngZh-aqcsi=fWI-U-PbnyEiNe0p

[@S.Trades]

Isn't that an offence?

[@polla2256]

One of my favourites is the farmer who returns hundreds of tyres someone dumped on his land.

[@ItsBillyBOB]

@@S.Trades Made out of scaffolding, yes. 😏

[@timduck8506]

@@S.Trades No it's a steal fence 😆

[@spychopath]

When I lived in Loughborough I had some loft storage, but it had to be removed when the house had cavity wall and loft insulation because it didn't leave sufficient clearance for the latter. After that was done, I got some builders in to install new loft storage. I explained to them that the house had just been insulated to the latest standard and that I needed them to install raised loft boarding to cover the raised insulation. I also wanted a new access ladder for the loft, to prevent me having to drag my mobile one in from the shed every time I wanted to go up there. They gave me a quote, I confirmed with them that the quote was for raised boarding and that the result would remain compliant with the insulation standard, and their quote got accepted. I couldn't be there on the day the work was done, as I worked in Rugby. I had my Mum house-sit for me whilst they did the work. When I called at lunchtime to see how they were getting on, Mum told me they'd just finished and left. Odd, I thought, that was fast. Too fast. They'd done a botch job. They'd removed the insulation, plonked the boards back down on the rafters (crushing a few electrical cables whilst they were at it) and even torn down the certificate stapled to the beams. Over subsequent weeks, some of the shelving beams would start to come apart as well, leaving the shelving at risk of collapsing through the upstairs ceiling. I called them that night to complain that the work had not been done as instructed and immediately got a hostile response. The work was done, so I had to pay for it, no arguments. Tragically for them, I knew that that was not the legal position - payment is not required if the work is unsatisfactory and requires remediation, and the degredation to the house's insulation definitely qualified as requiring remediation. Nevertheless, recognising that the materials used had been delivered and installed and I was perfectly happy with the ladder and loft hatch they'd fitted, as a show of good faith I paid them £500 of the £680 bill, to make sure they were not too terribly out of pocket whilst we sorted out the dispute. Well, the following week my cousin came to stay with me. I was penning a letter to the builders telling them that I would be happy to front the rest of the cash once the issue had been remedied and the insulation had been replaced with raised boarding. After sleeping on it, I got a panicked call the following day from my cousin. He'd opened the door to two men who had barged past him and gone upstairs. They were removing the loft ladder and hatch they had installed. I breifly got on the phone with them to tell them to stop and leave, got called a "gringey bastard" and was hung up on. So, I rocketed home to find they'd gone and I had a massive hole in my landing ceiling - and no loft insulation either. Tragically for the builders, the fact that they were in recipt of £500 of my money for goods and services not delivered, plus the remediation cost of not less than £360 to fix the insulation, plus the fact that their tresspass and damage was something I was happy to declare as breach of contract via breach of trust and hence requiring remediation work by a mutually agreeable third party, the amount I could claim they owed me was in excess of £600; the threshold above which a debt must be to qualify for High Court bailiff recovery action. IF I could get an order. Well, that turned out to be easy. Deleting the letter inviting them to remedy the problem, I sent them a new missive alleging breach of trust, breach of contract, and their liability for getting a mutually agreeable third party to repair the degraded insulation of the house and get it re-certified. No response. A small claims court case was filed. No response. They defaulted. A month after the court order I got a cheque through my letterbox for the ordered amount of £860. They were lucky - the following day it was going to be handed over to an enforcement agent. If they hadn't paid when they did they might have come out of their house one morning to find a clamp on their work van and a smiling bailiff with a tow truck on the way asking them for £1300 to take the clamp off and remove himself from their driveway... As it was they just got an awful review on Google. And £860 out of pocket. The guy who did the remediation work was able to use the existing materials, saving me a load of cost, so all told the job was done super cheap (my letters invited the mutually agreeable third party to reclaim the materials for them, however their lack of response meant that offer ended up forfeit). And going through the court system, as stressful as it was, made it so that going through it again in future will be much, much less frightening now that I have a good handle on civil procedure.

[@johnriggs4929]

As you point out - there are two sides to every story. I was in the building trade for over 50 years, and in my experience, most disputes that involve (reputable) tradesmen arise out of either party not fully understanding what the other is promising/ requesting. Obviously in your case, the 'reputable' part is not applicable.

[@mooganoid]

@@johnriggs4929 Very good point. I ALWAYS stipulate every detail in my quotations. No arguments

[@jimbobalob2491]

How where they supposed to raise the boards if the previous boards had been removed? I think you where mislead by the insulation company into getting more loft insulation fitted when it didn't really need it, they just kept upping the thickness needed to keep the industry going. If you did want to install more loft insulation, then it should have been laid over the existing boards and then stilts could have been fitted and new boarding fitted to them. Plus, you mentioned that they had crushed some electrical cables when they fitted the boards back down onto the rafters. well that's down to the person who did the electrics because the cables shouldn't have been laid over the rafters, they should have been fed through holes drilled through the rafters. I think the guys who did your loft where treated a bit harshly.

[@spychopath]

@@jimbobalob2491 They were supposed to buy new boards and stilts and fit them. There was verbal agreement to do this, but they didn't bother with the stilts. As for why more insulation was needed, it was needed to meet the insulation spec and keep my energy bills down. The cables perhaps shouldn't have been laid over the rafters, but they were, and the muppets who screwed everything up created a hazard by crushing them. That is no-one's fault but their own. If the existing electrical cable runs are unexpectedly in the way they can negoatiate a deviation to get the job done. The law is very clear that if they don't do this, instead proceeding regardless and causing damage that creates a hazard, then they are liable fully and completely. Also, you've missed commenting on the part where I mentioned the shelving they installed wasn't fit for purpose. No, I am not harsh on them, they got off easy.

[@jimbobalob2491]

@@spychopath I reckon that you thought that they had completed the job too quickly and then you decided to only pay them £500 instead of the agreed £680 because of it.

[@paulsmith5997]

I've always wondered about this as a landscape gardener, assuming the term property includes the garden too, I'm glad I made a claim, I learned to do it myself and enjoy the challenge, I won my case because I'd got evidence of the customer changing their story, the court costs aren't really that much £70 to make the claim and £80 for the hearing fee, but expect 6 months before you get a hearing, well worth it and you learn something

[@WestonMike]

Builder's didn't give much time to pay if the plaster is still damp! 😂

[@MillieMoocher]

The legal position is all well and good however in 99% of cases, play stupid games with tradesmen you win stupid prizes. Of course the verbal contract was to leave ventilation holes in the plasterwork

[@tomw8647]

a verbal contract is worth the paper its written on.

[@ant7936]

In Scotland, verbal is a contract.

[@asmith5149]

​@@ant7936anywhere verbal is called word of mouth, your word against mine. And if a contractor bangs large holes in new plasterboard claimung its ventilation holes that the client agreed to I'm not sure your verbal contract would be accepted in court, in Scotland or elsewhere

[@ant7936]

@@asmith5149 I was speaking in general. I understand that a contract is made, once a verbal agreement is entered.

[@tomw8647]

@@ant7936 Yes, but if there is a dispute as to what the contract is, without any evidence, it will be hard to prove what the contract terms are.

[@cozmicmike6800]

Years ago I was a partner in a heating business, we had many jobs in large multi room houses, in the local stockbroker belt. We always had a contract, required staged payments, and the final payment was exactly the amount due for the VAT. If this final payment was refused, often after multiple visits, and multiple broken promises and excuses, the whole matter was turned over to the accountant, as " customer refuses to pay the VAT element of the job ! Then the tax authorities could persue them !

[@BruvaBob]

I have a construction company and this is EXCATLY what we do since the new vat laws came into effect as it is down to the client as we as contractor to ensure vat is paid!

[@clivewilliams3661]

Every invoice for interim payments should have an element for VAT and I would contend that even if it is not stated then it is assumed to include that amount so that claiming the final payment as all VAT would be challenged and the heating company would fall foul of the HMRC wrath!

[@BruvaBob]

@@clivewilliams3661 You are / was correct, a couple of years ago vat laws changed becasue too many sole traders and small builders where always knocking the vat man. Now on projects termed 'domestic' its down to the client to ensure vat is paid (Im skipping details and dont fully understand - I have an accountant who does) which you can check on google i am sure

[@SavvyMoneyShow]

😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@SavvyMoneyShow]

😊

[@Sheffcolelectric]

You have to take the client to court (small claims applications) through Northampton county court claims. In short you are causing criminal damage, and could be accused of afray by causing alarm or distress to another person. Take them to court for non payment. You MUST issue a contract and save a signed copy no matter how small a job, something in writing to state cost of job and terms of payments etc, breach of this is sufficient to apply for a claim. Also make sure you have a complaint procedure in place to assure so if client says I had issues, again paper trail. I am a Former electrical contractor and now teach electrical, and had experienced similar to 2 clients over 7 years, won both cases and over £675 costs can go immediately to high court enforcement, which has more impact than a bailiff.

[@taras6806]

i think most off us will stick with proper legal advice.

[@JG-fv9bv]

Also agree with tjis statement , up to a certain value/amount taking out and issuing through the magistrates court a "Statutory Instrument" .

[@Sunshine-is_here_to_stay]

And how can you force them to pay??? Because in america You can't force them to pay.

[@clivewilliams3661]

I doubt you would get any contractor to sign up to a contract today for a small job with say a total worth of less than £100k. Normally, in the building industry the first course of dispute resolution would be via adjudication rather than through the courts.

[@asmith5149]

​@@taras6806lol I think you will find this information is absolutely correct.

[@justmrpat]

A few years ago somebody i knew had a shed business and sold a large shed to somebody near to where i lived .After his workers had erected it the customer told the lads he was`nt going to pay for it . They returned to their yard and told the boss the story who waited a few weeks for the customer to fill the shed with his tools,mower,and all the bikes and mysteriously the shed burnt down one night along with his fence.The boss turned up early the next morning in his Rolls Royce rang the door bell and said to the non payer Don`t worry about the the money you owe me i can stand the loss.Brilliant.

[@andysPARK]

Not cool. Arsons apart from being criminal and getting you locked up, sometimes result in unintentional death or injury.

[@SaltimusMaximus]

There are many people out there who have zero intention of paying and always use the defective claim. A friend of mine who fixed car gearboxes had several customers pay by cheque, drive away and stop the cheque immediately. They were always test driven in the car before taking it back and driven it themselves but they still did it. Having your own business is a nightmare and someone doing this is totally understandable

[@Oldguydosestuff]

I always had a written contract stating I could enter and remove any unpaid items not paid for after 30 days at any time of my convenience After being had a few times by freeloaders

[@Qkano]

Don't care about the law - were I on a jury I'd NEVER vote to convict them of criminal damage. Or aggravated trespass.... or anything.

[@Jourifouler]

and posting comments like that will ensure you are never picked

[@viuvenitlalumina]

let's see the loss

[@Wilkins_Micawber]

You need to be in the wrong side of a building work dispute as a home owner, before making such comments when shoddy work has been carried out.

[@viuvenitlalumina]

@@TheModernVictorian as long as he fixes back the walls.🤣 for free

[@warrenstanford7240]

I remember the case a couple of years ago in Liverpool were the mini digger driver after being not paid for a couple of weeks or so totally saw red and used the digger to demolish the construction work on the front of an office.

[@leeboy29680-ol7gf]

dont care what the law says on this. you dont pay me, im taking my wires our the walls. well explained as usual.

[@gretchengoestonebraska]

Ooh, you’re hard.

[@polla2256]

The plaster wasn't even dry so I assume he went ape after the owner told him he wasn't getting paid or words to that affect. A quick letter with 14 days notice to pay followed by small claims court would have been the better route.

[@CromulentEmbiggening]

You'd do well to care to avoid getting into trouble. Go through the proper channels and don't give them the satisfaction

[@theclotshotdidit3115]

I don't blame you, I saw a builder remove the extension he had just finished, using a JCB, Fair play to him, it was all over the news, you know that house owner is going to be cold for a while as they won't get another builder to fix it after not paying the first guy.

[@crapmalls]

Once

[@whathasxgottodowithit3919.]

It is very hard to get ones money after the fact, so if I was the builder, I would inspect the work, and conclude it was not up to standard then remove it demolish it, then offer to do it again with the money up front.

[@w3w3w3]

excatlty lol.

[@chemistmanuk]

Except that you will have done the job twice but only been paid once.

[@ericlees314]

Another great video from blackbeltbarrister ❤ Would love you to do a video on the legal rights for medical cannabis patients here in the UK 🙏 I've seen a fair few injustices now and with 30000+ patients this effects a fair few of us. Happy to link said injustices and maybe a chat on the subject....? Your subjects are always clear and easy to understand, thank you.

[@richardsweet5068]

I have a friend, now retired, who ran a scaffolding business. If the customer would not pay then they would not take down the scaffolding. If they took it down themselves he would put it back up. If the said scaffolding was removed they would call the police as it was theft.

[@Wolfy11188]

Removing your scaffolding that you chose to abandon on my property is not in any way, shape or form classed as theft. If you are told to take it down and you don't then it is considered abandoned. A simple call and report to the police that you have been contacted and proof of sending you an email or a letter showing you have been asked to remove the scaffolding and refused/ignored it is more than enough protection for them to remove it. Your friend then putting it back up is the one committing a criminal offence in this situation by trespassing on someones property. Your friend is lucky if they managed to avoid a lot of trouble.

[@squirrelpatrick3670]

@@Wolfy11188 debtors tend to stop engaging with paperwork and police

[@LoftechUK]

I’m in the trade and see this all the time. Customers always think they can do what they want.

[@S.Trades]

They think you rely on them. Uh, no.

[@thomasherrin6798]

I'm a customer and I have the opposite view!?!

[@charliewallace7197]

I got addicted to KZbin channels from US lawyers like Legal Eagle and Bruce Rivers, but it ultimately felt like a waste of time because I was educating myself on the laws in a country I've never been to. Really great to finally find a UK lawyer who is also a gifted explainer.

[@villageintheshire]

Yes, I'm sure there are a thousand things a builder can do - but none of them will amount to a penny for his honest labour.

[@BruvaBob]

Exactly. Its always just as important for a buidler to choose thright client as it is for the client ot get the right builder! 50% of a builders price is materials now, the other labour so the poor guy took a hit... if he done the works to a good standard

[@S.Trades]

But it's rarely a one man building team. They all have men to pay, who all have rent to pay, families to feed. You can't tell the missus, that you weren't paid this week.

[@BruvaBob]

@@S.Trades But is it right for someone to pay for something that doesn't meet standard.

[@S.Trades]

@@BruvaBob the job should be "of a reasonable standard". People always choose the cheapest quote, then get a cr@p job done.

[@JimIBobIJones]

Wtf are you on about. He could take his contract to a small claims court. It's cheap and quick and you don't need to have a lawyer.

[@Rapscallion2009]

The other thing to think about is that it won't really help. Correct me if I am wrong, but as well as trespass, entering a building or part of a building with intent to commit criminal damage is burglary (I think - I could be wrong). So there's also the possibility of getting arrested for that and I don't know what the prospects of a home improvements specialist with a conviction for burglary might be, but I doubt it's career-enhancing. TLDR. You can only really lose by doing this - however satisfying it might briefly be.

[@InterruptedByFireW]

No, it isn’t burglary.

[@chrisoconnor8392]

They've not stolen anything. All they've done is criminal damage.

[@Rapscallion2009]

@@chrisoconnor8392 Which does fall within the definition of burglary. www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/theft-act-offences#:~:text=Burglary%20consists%20of,to%20inflict%20grievous%20bodily%20harm. I'm pretty sure that at one stage an offence that rhymes with "grape" was as well, but removed around 2 decades ago.

[@davcrav]

@@InterruptedByFireW Burglary Entering a building, or part of a building, as a trespasser with intent to steal therein, or with intent to do unlawful damage, or, having entered a building, or part of a building, as a trespasser stole, or attempted to steal.

[@richardhale9664]

A builder I know who operates on a strictly cash basis, was refused payment for some pointing he did on a garden wall. Despite several requests for payment from the customer none was forthcoming. The builder proceeded to remove the pointing. The customer called the police. In a rare moment of common sense from the lawful force, they told the customer it was a civil matter and it served him right. No action taken. The wall now looks like shit. The builder has not been paid, but has increased his kudos and the customer has not got what he wanted and has damaged his reputation. As an aside the customer was from a certain ethnic minority (well round here not so much of a minority). It is not so rare for members of this community to agree a price and then try to haggle it down after work has finished. It is by no stretch universally so, but enough do for it to damage the community's reputation and cause prejudice.

[@gdfggggg]

I’ve had experience with them. It’s in their dna.

[@davidrennie8197]

Cash only? HMRC would be interested and I'd also put in a Benefit Fraud allegation

[@gdfggggg]

@@davidrennie8197 bet you're fun at parties 🥳

[@davidrennie8197]

As it happens I'm usually the most popular man in the room, and at the bars and music venues I go to. Personally I agree with what the guy did but most of the cash-only geezers I meet are those lovely, law-abiding traveller gits. I might be more sympathetic if the electricians, plumbers, plasterers, roofers and builders turned up to do the jobs I offered @@gdfggggg

[@Wolfy11188]

Sounds like the builder you know is extremely lucky the customer didn't ring hmrc with his name and details 😂

[@vickymc9695]

Isn't it normal for buildings work to have 30 days to pay from completion of work? Seems a little soon to fly off the handle with the plaster to still be drying.

[@S.Trades]

Depends on the agreed contract. Ideally, this should be all clear and in writing, in case of dispute.

[@nickmail7604]

If you have supplied the materials and take them back in a calm and orderly manner, and try to take them back doing as little damage to the materials or any pre existing property then yes you can and I have witnessed the police in Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and Suffolk refuse to get involved other than to recommend that the bill should be settled. As you pointed out the plaster had not yet dried out so whatever had happened was very recent and usually non payment takes time to happen. So I bet in this instance somebody had probably (accidentally or not) bounced a cheque.

[@BruvaBob]

True, so long as no damage is caused, but you must be careful what you take. If you take all sinks basins and taps, wc's then this breaks human rights laws which is serious trouble. Taking back a garden fence, roof tiles etc is fine. we state on our T&C's all items remain the property of ...... until paid in full.

[@nickmail7604]

@@BruvaBob depends on the situation, if its on a new build and they haven't moved in yet then its fine to takes them. I've stood and watched the site staff of one of the top 3 biggest house building companies told by the police that they only way to stop it was to pay up.

[@BruvaBob]

@@nickmail7604 correct for sure and this is what we tand to specialise in along with design and build. However with deveopers the best way si always via court and as Mr BBB says you can add a cover that the house is not sold until you are paid. This always works and ends disputes very quickly as it really adds a big problem to their chance of selling.. no one wants to buy a home from a dodgy developer expecially high end clients!

[@ant7936]

​@@BruvaBob Human rights? But you've left them a hole in the ground.....

[@BruvaBob]

@donnae9566 🤣 dont forget the angle beads!

[@mcmaximon1]

Fitted a flat roof light for a ‘Friend’ of 30 years. No contract signed as he’s my regular mechanic and I thought I could trust him. 5 weeks later and almost 3 grand outstanding. Visit him weekly and he promises to pay by the weekend but hasn’t so far. What really gets to me is the week I installed the roof light he paid Wren kitchens 18 grand. I’m a very placid bloke and don’t know what to do next!

[@warrenstanford7240]

Go back round and remove roof light when the house is unoccupied, any neighbours asking tell them it’s defective.

[@EnochPowellsLibrarian]

Yeah remove it . Find a new mechanic.

[@phoenixxavier9615]

Remove it carefully, then sell it.

[@mcmaximon1]

Easier said than done to remove it. It’s 3m long x 1.5m wide. Weighed in excess of 175 kilos. It took four men and a hired Genie lift to get it up on the flat roof. I think I might have to resign myself to being well out of pocket.

[@warrenstanford7240]

@@mcmaximon1 Then it’s county court time ask fellow professionals the best course of action for payment or seizure of goods.

[@eddier9455]

Builders are the worst payers, worked for a fabrication company 30 years ago. We used to supply steels and fabrication services to builders, my boss decorated his notice board with CJD’s against builders that didn’t pay.