Minden NV Mid Air NTSB Preliminary Report

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[@2140BlackCreek]

23+ years ago, a bit after retirement from the airlines, I had re-upped my CFI privileges and was training a student for solo. She was the daughter of an airline pilot and very savvy student. She was ready to solo, but because of holiday traffic at our home airport we went to a smaller airport across the sound to have her do her solo. After a brief discussion, I climbed out of the C172 and sat down next to the runway with the HT radio in hand. Off she went, making all the traffic calls proceeding around the pattern till she was on base and banking to turn final. It was then that a homebuilt aircraft appeared just over the trees, on final , pulling in front of my student. Apparently on a straight in and no radio call, the home built was intent upon landing but with said student only a minimal few feet away and descending. Shocked, I squeezed the HT radio button to transmit a warning, but concurrently she caught sight of the idiot and did a side step to the right and then go-around. My legs had almost folded underneath me. The homebuilt, realizing somehow that he'd screwed up, proceeded straight out to somewhere. The student? Oh, she finished her three landings and takeoffs and then came back to pick me up to go back to the home field. She seemed calm and organized. Me? I was a wreck. A few years later I heard she was flying for one of the major carriers. On non-towered airports, communication between aircraft and ground support equipment is vital. VITAL.

[@davedoe6445]

this kind of stuff really discourages me from ever wanting to participate in GA flying. On one end of the spectrum: your 251 gram drone needs a license and comprehensive tracking and ATC permission to fly. On the other end: pilots feel that they should have a right to fly a 100 year old aircraft with no radio wherever they feel like and "see and avoid" is good enough. Nobody would come up with these policies from a "clean sheet design" perspective and the government really ought to make the letter of the law much less ambiguous and rigorously enforce it.

[@JericoStorage]

It's not a requirement and guys WILL fly without a radio. Look where you are going.

[@tommihommi1]

​@@davedoe6445no plane should be in the air without ADSB and without radio, yeah

[@Studio23Media]

@@JericoStorageIf you need lifesaving equipment to be required before you use it, stay on the ground.

[@manifold1476]

@@JericoStorage At one time in history you could drive anywhere you wanted to go, and be as DRUNK as you wished at the same time (as long as your HORSE wasn't drunk too). TIMES CHANGE - - - and the lifestyles that suited a troglodyte and his harem, (or a Luddite and his iron shovel) DO NOT FIT in a modern (MECHANIZED) lifestyle.

[@pigdroppings]

No ads....no money for blancolirio Hey KZbin he is trying to save lives.

[@Johnfisher12345]

He gets money through patreon donations, among other things. NOBODY wants to see youtube ads.

[@james-faulkner]

Good for him. He is also a commercial airline pilot, cha-ching!.

[@Andrew-13579]

I saw one ad during this video.

[@babaoriley124]

I have been a Patreon of Juan's for a couple of years now. He has earned every penny of it. Please support him as the man lives and breathes aviation!

[@ctbale1]

Why would he be de monitized?

[@thedevilinthecircuit1414]

"I wanna hear your 10-mile call, your 5-mile call, your 45 call..." *All* our lives depend on it.

[@thomasmennella5501]

And don’t feel like you need to talk like a pilot. If you sense a conflict and can’t make clear sense of the traffic, talk to each other like human beings. At my home field there’s a landmark that we all use to set up for a 45 entry. I was headed there and so was a CFI with a student. I spoke to them directly, we coordinated our positions and arrival, no danger, no problem. Safety first and pilotese second.

[@RaceMentally]

I was flying into HII a week ago and some girl took the runway when a citation was on final. Chick literally had no idea and the citation was calling everything out from 25 miles. I couldn’t believe it when I heard he saying taking runway 32 after citation literally was on final. Citation went around but like WTF

[@wadepatton2433]

There was a sea-plane school accident I learned of not too long ago (or maybe it was here) and that's when I found out (not a pilot) that not every plane even HAS a radio. This blows my radio-amateur mind. Worse yet to have one and not use it as needed, as proven here it seems. I now listen to aviation radio traffic along with my ham comms.

[@olympiashorts]

Amen

[@stuartbebout.9163]

@@RaceMentallyI’m pretty sure that was me in the citation

[@johnhinkey5336]

I'm not a pilot, but I find these videos incredibly useful as case studies in how things can go wrong . . . the lessons learned can be applied to many other areas.

[@johnknowlton3998]

Yes! That’s exactly how I feel 👍🇺🇸

Being in and operating in a three dimensional environment above the ground is a completely different world.

[@ericmoyer8538]

I have aspirations of being a pilot and this one hit home because I was recently using this airport on ms flight sim. I’m always amazed at how many pilots (especially experienced pilots) overlook basic safety procedures such as proper communications. Eye opening too is how many treat flying as an art form instead of a science.

[@kekke2000]

"Honey I'm leaving the living room to go to the bathroom, will pass blind corner by the kitchen. Stay alert." 😅

[@petruzzovichi]

Juan, you are a gift to everyone, especially students studying to become pilots. Your reports are the best. Many thanks...

[@johnknowlton3998]

I look forward to every video 👍🇺🇸

[@keepyourbilsteins]

I remember flying with a friend the first time after he'd gotten ADSB In installed. Un-towered airport we have both been to dozens of times before. There were other aircraft not on the freq, or otherwise not making position calls that we'd never know were there without the IN feature added. It was pretty spooky.

[@flygirl6048]

I'm an instructor out of a class C in a relatively remote area of the US. Our school doesnt prioritize uncontrolled airport ops as much as we should, and i see very little scanning/clearing traffic aside from 90 degree turns for maneuevers. Calling and looking are both crucial for the non-towered environment. This is going to fuel me to become more intentional and firm with scanning techniques and quality radio calls. Thanks, Juan.

[@ridesar]

Thanks for another solid, dispassionate, and thoughtful analysis Juan. As a 20+ year Amateur Radio operator I don't understand why pilots seem to hate talking on the radio. I've only been flying for a few years but I notice this a lot. Simplex radio operations are not hard, but pilots seem to rush their speech and hate to push the transmit button in the first place. Not sure of the source of the hesitation, but it doesn't help any of us.

[@sairlordmusic]

73 MW3PWA indeed

[@laynemimstx]

I appreciate you take on this. i was working on private, had soloed was with instructor doing pattern work. unicom freq uncontrolled field. i radioed downwind, crosswind and turn to short final at 17L in big spring tx. we lifted right wing and looked for other aircraft on final. saw nothing. turned to final and about 400 feet off ground, had a twin come over the top about 10 feet above my plane. instructor was filling out paperwork. it rolled my plane past 90 in the prop wash and i right rudder, full throttle, and roll back to level. lost no altitude. had 10 deg flaps in a 172. never a call on radio and when fbo fuel truck witnessed it and called on radio, they flew off towards midland. never a call on radio. pre adsb days, no foreflight. caught me off guard, but was glad to be flying outside the plane, not stuck inside and not watching. long ex military runways so a good amount of jet and twin coming in on cross country for fuel, in a smaller airport.

[@pharmakon6]

I did all my primary PPL training at an incredibly rural desert airstrip. Many days it would see no other airplanes flying other than me in a clapped out. 150 boring holes in the sky over and over practicing my pattern and landing work. Every single lap around the pattern I called out all four corners. One time I was questioned as to why I call out every single turn as no one is out there. I simply said "you certain of that?" It was an Airport with no requirements for adsb or radios. I still call out every corner of the pattern and 10 mile and 5 mi reporting points when I'm inbound.

[@kenclark9888]

Juan, Today I flew a 182 from AUN to WLW. Flown with flight following and flying the GPS Rwy 34 at WLW(Willows). Announcements were made at 20 miles initially and then each fix down the approach (just miles were stated) so as to eliminate confusion. Allowed me to coordinate with departing traffic and a crop duster working the area. Everyone knew where one another was. Works great

[@KennethAGrimm]

That brings up a question that popped up in my mind: With flight following, and the untowered airport calls, did that mean you were juggling two frequencies?

[@AndersMcA]

@@KennethAGrimmnot original commenter, but on an Instrument Approach to an untowered field, I’ll be switching back and forth. Usually make an initial call 10-15nm out, then get cleared for the approach by ATC, then switch to make a call on CTAF, then get “frequency change approved” by ATC whereafter I’m making 5 & 3 nm calls and a short final/missed approach call. Not too high workload so long as conditions are okay. Even better with autopilot.

[@KennethAGrimm]

@@AndersMcA Thank you. That was exactly the clarification I sought. Now for the pure curiosity: Have you ever switched back to ATC, and found that they had begun worrying about you that you were not responding to ATC? I am thinking particularly of the case, not when reaching the end of your journey, but when you have CTAFed an airport along your route, that you were passing within, say, five miles of that airport. (Within the 10-mile zone.)

[@sircrapalot9954]

⁠@@KennethAGrimmIt may be a good idea to monitor CTAF on a second radio when passing near an untowered airport along your route, but in most cases your cruise altitude is well above pattern altitude. If flight following is providing radar services they’ll probably see and advise of inbound traffic long before you can.

[@TheAlphahirogen]

I had a very close call with a mid-air when I was a student pilot doing solo work at a neighboring field. I was on downwind (having made all CTAF calls during my previous pattern and takeoff), when a piper out of nowhere was descended into a downwind entry for the other runway. Never saw him (I was in a 152) until he had already passed the windscreen. He was a very old pilot, never made a radio call until after I announced again I was in the downwind and that he had just buzzed me. Never heard a reply, but the aircraft then climbed and departed the area. 20+ years later I still have a perfect recollection of the three oil streaks running down the belly of the aircraft. That was a very, very close call that day.

[@jtjames79]

There really needs to be a mid-air collision prevention app. If everyone had a $20 meshtastic router reporting their GPS and altitude. It would be easy. I could probably get AI to do the programming.

[@georgelevin6134]

I remember a C-150 passing below me so close I could easily read the 80-100 Octane label on the fuel inlet.

[@swooshdave]

I bet there was another streak inside your airplane. 😮

[@CentralStateMower]

I had a very similar close call myself as a student pilot at an untowered airport. Nearly had a mid-air with a Beech Baron.

[@wadepatton2433]

@@jtjames79 We've got the tech, but I expect the process of getting the FAA behind it and utilizing it is a long slow process. Radios work pretty good if they're used properly. I understand being stingy with words when communicating to busy ATC, but that's not here.

[@jefreahard9165]

Great report and advice. Had a Golden Eagle cut me off at KSSI today, never made a taxi call, never made a crossing runway call, had to be queried about his departure direction/intentions even though there were two of us lined up to depart behind him. He found time to call for his ifr in the air though, lol.

[@Garythefireman66]

Thanks for the video Juan. RIP to the deceased

[@pgilb70]

Yup- Aviate, Navigate , Communicate. And don't forget, 'every landing is a go around with an option to land'. Juan has it all in a nutshell.

[@melodiemurphy5908]

Hey Juan, well said and a spot on opinion. This is the same thing with drivers on the road not signaling their intentions as if we all know what they are thinking! Thanks again for your analysis!

[@barryaronson9697]

I was doing touch-and-gos with a student pilot certificate. I was in the pattern (right hand) on the downwind leg when I heard on the tower frequency an arriving pilot asking for permission to land. He was told to enter the pattern on the downwind leg. I was glad I was listening as he appeared just above me and to the left on a vector about 45 degrees relative to mine. I set the engine to idle and pulled back on the yoke to slow down. There may have been enough room for the both of us if I hadn't done that but it would have been full on Top Gun if I hadn't.

[@michaelgarrow3239]

I got vectored into a mountain once. I politely declined…. 🙄

[@jerseyshoredroneservices225]

I don't understand. How would a controller have put 2 planes so close together?

[@DMNSAV]

- adverse situational awareness in stressful situations.

[@jetjock60]

@@jerseyshoredroneservices225 A review of the AIM tells you that a tower controller's job is sequencing traffic (who's number one for the runway, etc.) If a tower has radar it may be employed to assist in pointing out traffic, but if it is not an approach control, vectors cannot be issued. Even if flying under IFR, if you are in visual conditions you are expected to maintain a visual lookout for traffic. I have had first officers tell me I'm paranoid when I get on their case for not keeping a visual scan for aircraft departing a Class B airport.

[@Saml01]

@@jerseyshoredroneservices225VFR traffic is provided sequencing services only not separation.

[@bingsballyhoo711]

Thank you for your report and reminders. Even drivers of cars can take something away from these stories.

[@edmoore3910]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@LesBell]

Make those calls early and often! Operating IFR into untowered airports in regional Australia, back in the days before ADS-B, listening for and responding to other aircrafts' calls was essential to building a situational awareness picture of where everyone was. We'd sort ourselves out, sometimes organizing a stack as we descended to enter the approach. I got a long lecture on this from my instrument examiner, and never forgot the lesson - for VFR, too.

[@dpeasehead]

@LesBell: I've always been impressed by the technical skills and professionalism which is exhibited by small nations like Australia and New Zealand. Seeking practical and useful solutions to these kinds of problems seems to be engrained in those cultures.

[@LesBell]

@dpeasehead You see it most in our military, which is small but highly professional.

[@dmacnet]

Thank you Juan! I'm about to start flying with a CFI out of an untowered airport again after months off, and this is great to help me prepare.

[@Tumleren]

Stay safe!

[@a.n.7863]

Keep in mind that even with a CFI on board you’re still in the left seat. I had an occasion (almost 50 years ago now but still unforgettable) where an instructor told me to taxi onto the runway for takeoff and, being in a C172, I told him three times that I couldn’t see if it was clear. As we sat there another plane touched down right in front of us.

[@mrmister1501]

This accident case study is probably the very reason why here in Canada a 45 degree entry into the traffic pattern of a non-towered airport is prohibited. As you indicated, a low wing aircraft banking into the pattern at 45 degrees combined with a high wing on the cross wind is a recipe for disaster. In addition to making appropriate radio calls and giving ample prior warning, an aircraft must only enter the pattern from the upwind side crossing over the airport at circuit altitude as this gives the pilot the best vantage point of other aircraft in the pattern. Given that the DPE is stating that pilots aren't looking for other traffic on the crosswind, maybe it's time to change and restrict the pattern entry requirements.

[@craigsanders6925]

That plane on the 45 should be making that turn a couple miles or more away from the airport. Shouldn't be anywhere near the crosswind leg. Which pattern altitude, Slow GA, turboprop, biz jet?

[@ridesar]

@@craigsanders6925 Agree on all points. At typical GA cruise speeds 3 miles is about 90 seconds (aircraft type in your transmission should tell most folks which altitude you're pattern is, but if you are deviating from that I agree on specifying). I also try to aim to enter my 45 at midfield so I get a good look at the downwind and anyone on crosswind from the left seat (typical pattern) as I come into to join. Most folks don't seem to understand how small an airplane is to spot, especially over a broken background like a town. This is where the 3 mile call is especially useful since they probably won't be able to pick you up visually at 10. It scares me that there was less than 20 seconds between the Swift's transmission and the impact, in a busy environment like training or a busy pattern, that is not a lot of time in hand. And the long pause in the 206 transmissions didn't give any warning if the Swift pilot was late tuning to the CTAF.

[@paulrichardson6804]

Same with New Zealand…

[@flygirl6048]

I'm not Canadian. How do you folks enter non-towered airport patterns?

[@mrmister1501]

@@flygirl6048 Always from the upwind side, or straight in on the downwind provided there is no conflict of aircraft coming from the upwind side. If you are approaching the airport from the downwind side you would cross over midfield at 500 ft above the traffic pattern to the upwind side and make a left hand descending turn down to pattern altitude and then cross midfield into a mid-left downwind and all the while making position reports over the radio. At busier non-towered airports we also have something called a mandatory frequency which is a whole other explanation.

[@Bob1934-l6d]

I remember when ADS-B out became a requirement. There were and still are exemptions for some aircraft. Had a gentleman tell he was never going to put one on his aircraft. So I took him up and had him look at my iPad. I asked him "You see that aircraft at 3 miles?" Pointing at the iPad. He starts looking around and says "No." After an hour of seeing what was displayed on the iPad and what we could and could not see. He was sold. You are right about Radio Traffic, people get complacent. What is worse are people who have an exemption to have No Radio and then fly into air fields that are busy with no radio.

[@gordongott127]

Your dedication to this channel is very much appreciated Ty.

[@alanblyde8502]

Second to none

[@markcopenhaver5256]

Juan, This is not an isolated case. I instruct my students at ten miles out, give them a shout. Then again at five and three miles out. All with altitude and direction of flight. Plus, calling all five legs of the traffic pattern, whether left or right pattern. “Left crosswind” or “right base” then runway in use. Communications can prevent accidents like this from happening. I have copied the link to this video and sent it to my students. Thank you for producing this valuable content.

[@RichardLewis-g4e]

As a student pilot my instructor told me to make radio calls on every leg of the pattern. One day we were training and as instructed, I made those calls. Someone came on the radio and admonished me for making to many calls. My instructor let that pilot know what the rules were. Never heard another complaint. BEWARE, non controlled airports.

[@tomdchi12]

To add minor points to your summary of the critical points about the radio calls: It looks like the Swift pilot tended to join the patter at a 45 but heading into the "corner" where aircraft turn from cross to downwind, not at the point abeam mid-field into the downwind. In addition the 206 was making non-standard extra wide pattern laps which contributed to the aircraft intersecting where they would have difficulty seeing each other. (Personally, I think more radio use/monitoring should be required rather than recommended, but at the same time, we always have to assume that there are aircraft that don't have a radio or whose radio has failed or is tuned incorrectly.)

[@JoeSig-pj9di]

Good report. Nice reinforcement of proper radio calls in a non towered environment. I do a lot of flying in and out of non-towered airports so this seems logical. What do others need to know about my position, intentions, and type of aircraft/speed… Also as soon as I hear another plane approaching or whatever I specifically respond to their calls with my info so we can set each other up for success.

[@JohnCountryman737]

Not an active pilot but used to fly out of O69 which relied on pilots to communicate on CTAF. It was unnerving how many other approaching aircraft would wait to make their first call when entering on the 45 for the downwind, and a few old timers there who did not even use their radios. It got pretty squirley in the pattern on the weekends there. Thank you for illustrating what can happen and why communication is critical to pattern safety.

[@EarthAmbassador]

Petaluma is still a mess

[@fltof2]

@@EarthAmbassador I feel each Sonoma Co. area airport has their own challenges, with KDVO for x-winds, KSTS for airliners and helicopters (+ the occasional hot air balloon). Petaluma often has more traffic than Santa Rosa, and it's one of the airports you gotta be prepared to say: Nope, I'm gonna stay outside the airspace and enter 10 minutes later, often as the only aircraft at a peacefully quiet airport. It's such a loverly area to fly.

[@nealm6962]

AC 90-66c recommends intercepting the downwind leg from the 45 abeam the midfield point of the intended runway. The Swift pilot intercepted at the crosswind to downwind corner of the pattern, not to mention at an altitude other than pattern altitude. Complacency kills.

[@jonathanrichards593]

Non-pilot here, but it seems to me that intercepting the downwind at 45° for a left-hand pattern means turning 45° *to the right* to join the pattern. Isn't that what FAR 91.126 (b)(1) specifically forbids? See timestamp 15:23

[@SgfGustafsson]

@@jonathanrichards593The “when approaching to land” part implies you are in the pattern. The 45 is part of the entry procedure, and is not part of the pattern. AC 90-66C published by the FAA sates “The FAA does not regulate traffic pattern entry only traffic pattern flow.” The 45 degree to the left midfield downwind is the recommended entry procedure by the FAA, they would not try to enforce the left hand turns rule for the 45 degree entry.

[@tdkeyes1]

@@jonathanrichards593 Think of a merging on- ramp for a car. You are joining traffic to your left, hopefully at the same pattern altitude. My CFI would bark at me if I varied by 50ft. He said if you weren't at eye level the odds are much greater that you will never see each other. I was trained at an untowered field and the number of unannounced incoming was scary. People need to use their radio and keep your head on a swivel when close to an airfield.

[@warren5699]

My thoughts also. Entries to the downwind can vary a lot and scanning while on the crosswind needs to be in all directions possible. By the way, some of the diagrams in the AIM show a downwind entry well before the midfield point - Fig 4-3-2 and Fig 4-3-3.

[@nealm6962]

I almost got smacked multiple times at KMEV at the crosswind to downwind corner. I decided to relocate and avoid pattern work at KMEV.

[@U20E27]

This was a big reason I quit flying. My home strip was well known for questionable radio calls from aircraft entering the area and joining in on the pattern. It was so common that all the local students and newbies practicing would check in with each other making sure each other see new aircraft joining the pattern. 150 xxx you have the new traffic to your left etc. Also with so much dash equipment and activity I see very few pilots with eyes out vs in.

[@davedoe6445]

even with eyes out - in this situation unless the aircraft made efforts to move their wing they wouldn't have seen each other - they were in each other's blind spots

[@vr0ssi46]

Love your videos, excellent for learning and I show them to my students. I instruct at a busy uncontrolled field with intersecting runways. Communication is critical as we have upwards of 6-8 planes in the pattern at busy push times. We have a good size flight school and teaching that 45 degree entry CORRECTLY is important as I see that executed the most inconsistently. I’ll teach two important aspects to said entry, overfly the field outbound far enough to perform a descending turn that allows you to be level at TPA well before entering the downwind. Most students will make that turn tight and still be descending into the downwind. I show them these types of videos in the debrief. Two, enter the downwind midfield. That’s where other traffic is expecting you to enter and that’s where eyeballs are focused. I point out this as a “hotspot” for collisions as well as the turn from base to final as another. It’s really safe as long as everyone plays their part BUT it only takes one cowboy that wants to do something different really jeopardize lives. CONSISTENCY AND BE PREDICTABLE!!!!! Learned that from racing motorcycles as a kid.

[@AlyssaM_InfoSec]

I've been teased by pilots for making a 10 mile out call into non-towered airports, now I'm teasing them that they owe me an apology. Letting people know early what to expect ensures everyone can talk and work out potential conflicts before they become close calls.

[@inglorion]

"Have you ever heard the saying 'Aviation safety rules are written in blood'?"

[@paulcredmond]

Amazing analysis as always.

[@josephroberts6865]

Excellent report Juan! Radio calls are free. Make them and don’t just blurt out call sign and position, find out if anyone is in the pattern and talk to them.

[@dhakagee5297]

You are totally right Juan! Radio calls for situational awareness plus persuade "exempt" pilots/aircraft on the usefulness of ADS-B

[@yan4174]

Thank you so much for the information. Aircraft without ADS-B does create a lot of aviation hazard in and around busy airspace. I remember once had my instructor visually spotted an aircraft within very close range. But it wasn’t showing on our traffic scope, nor was there any announcement by the Delta tower. It was totally stealthy until we spot them and have to report the occurrence to the tower. Your comment about position report recommended for the departing aircraft raised a very important point of non-towered traffic operation safety as I observed pilots (including myself ) could report “leaving the pattern, departure s/n/e/w “ and then could switch to center/departure frequency. This will create a situation where denaturing aircraft is with ATC while the arrival aircraft is on the CTAF. If any of these aircraft don’t have the ADS-B equipped, the situational awareness is degraded and airmen’s safety are at risk. Again, Thanks for your time and effort helping improve the safety of aviation.

[@benjaminhanke79]

Every time I read "Minden" I think of Minden here in Germany. It's kinda famous for it's crossing waterways, the "Mittellandkanal" goes over the "Weser"

[@amykathleen2]

My family has a historical connection to a town called New Minden which was populated by German immigrants, so your comment explains where the name must’ve come from!

[@boitoiful]

Excellent report Juan. I am not an aviation expert so I rely on you to bring these reports to us. Always a pleasure! Thank you.

[@JoshEmmons]

One thing I've noticed flying at MEV is that depending on the angles between traffic, aircraft to the west can be difficult to spot due to being lost in the visual clutter of the terrain immediately to the west (five miles west of the field the mountains rise between 2,500 and 5,000 feet above field elevation depending on azimuth).

[@Tommy_Boy.]

I always aim for that downwind point abeam "mid field" when making the 45-degree entry. It looks like the Swift was entering the downwind earlier - much closer to the crosswind leg.

[@ctquicksilver]

Lucky anyone survived this one…wow

[@gmcjetpilot]

ahaaaaa no. Swift pilot fatal

[@ericfielding2540]

Another excellent discussion about what went wrong in this accident. Juan is one general aviation pilot I would trust without hesitation.

[@carlosbielli4780]

This video will save lives. Juan, you are a kind of "guard angel".

[@dougfisher7197]

Tough situation. A good man, and a good pilot, lost. I always try to give location -- and altitude -- when reporting in the vicinity of an airport. Helps to know is I need to climb or descend out of caution. Hindsight is very easy. Thanks, Juan.

[@horizon42q]

I’m not a pilot but I learn a lot here. Thanks

[@Galactic-Jack1978]

I'm not a pilot but an aviation enthusiast from Cape Town South Africa - I find your videos very informative and your delivery of that info is very clear. Thanx so much for posting these regular posts on aviation safety.

[@neilmurgatroyd3197]

Such useful content Juan, delivered without clickbait titles or sensationalism, thankyou. It's positive and beneficial to the flying community. (I'm a British private pilot, I also read all our AAIB (the UK NTSB) reports for my category of aircraft)

[@johnmesser1373]

Exactly, more communication was needed in the pattern and arriving in the pattern. Plus, what about lifting your wing when making turns in the pattern to help see the traffic that might be entering. Thanks for the rundown on this situation, you are doing a great job.

[@deanwoodward8026]

@blancolirio - Minor correction- high wing pilots need to raise the wing and look under it in the direction they plan on turning. Lowering it just further blocks your vision.

[@austincjett]

I hate fatal accidents. My heart goes out to the people involved. Aviate, navigate and communicate. Just because "communicate" is last on the list doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing position reports often. Many times, I've been in a situation where the only way I knew a midair was possible was communication. The sky is big but all it takes are a few words to put both pilots head on a swivel.

[@ckhoshkhou]

I had a very close call early one morning when i decided it was too early in the morning for anyone else to be in the air also. After a 45min flight i was returning to base in a C172 descending to avoid class a, when my p2 said sheepishly “airplane” whilst pointing to the port side. Before i even had a chance to look, pa28 also descending crossed our left to right at about 50-100ft ahead. We were close enough to see the whites of their eyes and I’m sure they ours. Ever since then, i always ensure i’m talking to someone and where available request a traffic service. This was before ipads i might add.

[@SleeplessInSmileland]

This is basic and fundamental airmanship and illustrates just how easily and simply familiarity can lead to complacency. Flight is very much a procedural process. The procedures exist for a reason. Ignore them at your peril (and sadly, that of others).

[@PhilBodden]

Dan Gryder has been PREACHING about proper traffic pattern communications for the same reason, Thanks for a nice update, Greetings from The Cayman Islands

[@georgelevin6134]

Before retiring from flying as a corporate pilot then flight instruction for ten years I can’t tell you the number of times I would hear a radio position call and find that aircraft coming from a completely different direction.

[@scottjweed]

This sort of video content regarding aviation safety is appreciated, even though I am not a pilot. This sort of detail regarding accident reviews is appreciated and I am subscribed and a P member.

[@junktionfet]

These analyses are comprehensive, insightful, and educational. I'm convinced that Juan's content has made me a better pilot

[@FINfinFINfinFINfin]

Thanks Juan.

[@DrJohn493]

As someone that got my start in an aviation career with the CAP way back in 1974, I'm extremely proud of the 206 CAP crew's response. IMHO, the Swift pilot seemed to have the attitude I often encountered entering an uncontrolled airport pattern in the Baron...it's an uncontrolled airport and I don't have to talk on the radio. Can't remember the number of times I was cut out of the pattern by pilots that wouldn't follow safety protocols.

[@whogivesacrap84]

The instructor on this particular aircraft is an extremely diligent pilot someone i respect highly.

[@BruceM-o4h]

I’d like to know when the last call from the 206 prior to the crosswind call was made? As Juan points out, the 206 radio work was lacking, with no mention of T&G intentions, nor of execution as departing 34. Also would like to know whether the Swift pilot would habitually be on another frequency before the 45 entry to join the downwind? I’m disappointed with the CAP crew. I expect better of CAP, based on what I experienced when I was a member.

[@calcutronsmith9198]

@@BruceM-o4h It still seems like it was 90% the swift's fault. Yeah, the CAP 206 could have made a call on upwind, but 1) they made many prior radio calls 2) they were flying a standard pattern 3) they had ADS-B in and out. Whereas the swift 1) did a non-standard pattern entry 2) made their one radio call right before joining the downwind 3) didn't have ADS-B out or in. CAP aircrews are generally extremely well trained, but no one can be perfect 100% of the time.

[@rc01140]

@@calcutronsmith9198 Which part of a 45° entry to the downwind leg is a non-standard pattern entry? I agree that he should have been making more radio calls and ADS-B would probably have saved his life though.

[@mattbowers3541]

@@BruceM-o4h You're correct, Bruce. Best practice is to add intentions on the mandatory final call. "Final 34, Touch & Go". Take-off calls are also mandatory and wasn't made. "Touch & Go 34, Rolling". Best to make leg calls during or immediately after the leg. There were 2 pilots in the 206, to look out the window. Since they hit the other plane, that's 100% on them. But, this isn't this+that=100%. The Swift also carries blame. He ALSO needed to check left to right before joining the pattern. He should have also dipped a wing for a better view. Also, we need to be at pattern altitude a mile BEFORE joining the pattern. To, "see and be seen". I too know several of the pilots and the FAA investigators. The CAP has a really bad reputation around this airport. I know of now 4 planes totaled, due to improper piloting. These planes belong to the Air-force, not the pilots! ***This was a much better report by Juan, than his first one. He hit on most of these points.

[@larryweitzman5163]

Great analysis. Especially near the end, communications!!! reminds of the adage, "You give them books, teach them to read, give them breakfast, then take them to school and they still eat the teacher."

[@Dluv3679]

Excellent debrief Jaun, Thanks for driving home the radio calls in the pattern or approaching the pattern. Complacency is a killer.

[@KlazerFPV]

Excellent work as always. Thank you! All the calls today! Let’s do our best.

[@jimmychambers2563]

Another excellent video. It makes us non pilots, be able to understand what’s going on. Thank you Juan!!

[@jimmierturner3597]

Thanks!

[@MarkMalone-i1g]

Nice work, Juan. Also let us know if you’re going to be touching go or full stop! Really helps faster traffic in the pattern to plan their based leg turn.

[@dominicdahlheimer6861]

Great video as usual Juan! Best deal in the skies~ ~the free CTAF radio calls!

[@sloseabass97]

Thank U, JB, for keeping us well informed and updated. Be Well.

[@SteveYucht]

Juan, spot on as usual. I mostly fly in controlled environments but routinely am stopping for fuel in remote untowered fields. I never take these environments for granted because of this very accident. For those of us that appreciate predictability, please keep talking and squawking. N951SY

[@libertine5606]

Thanks Juan. Great review and I can see where I can improve my procedures. Too bad it takes a accident for this to happen. Of course it's hard to keep all the plates spinning at the same time or realize what may have become fuzzy in our skill set. This is why your channel is so important.

[@hotprop92]

In addition to following good radio protocol it is essential to be at pattern altitude well before the downwind pattern altitude. CAP made the crosswind turn much earlier than their first time was still climbing when the collision occured. Low wing descending high wing ascending leaves a lot of blind area. Climbing or descending into the downwind while under, over the downwind or in the 45 is playing russian roulette. I mean in all that empty space were only two acft and only briefly they managed find and hit each other, mind boggling.

[@ColinWatters]

If Ive understood correctly the Cessna pilots would most likely be looking to their left as they were making a left circuit (eg looking towards the airfield). The Swift pilot was joining from their front right.

[@blancolirio]

You gotta check right also!

[@BruceM-o4h]

@@blancolirio yes! If radio call indicates 45 degree entry to downwind and they look left from crosswind they’re really confused.

[@purplesprigs]

Where I live (Winter Haven, FL) a well-known seaplane school uses J-3 Cubs with NO RADIO on board. One of the Cubs collided with a Cherokee, with four fatalities the result. The attitude of local pilots is, "Hey, it's not required."

[@EarthAmbassador]

Did my SES there, was very off put by the NORDO operations..

[@LRumore]

I work at KTRK. Years ago We had a consultant spend a summer at our airport observing operations before we deployed our contact tower. Everyday, he about had a heart attack. He’d pace back and forth and held manic phone calls with his wife in disbelief at what he was observing: high summer operations combined with glider and sky dive operations. To me it was just normal. Now that we are controlled, and with more experience under my belt, I understand why he was so flabbergasted. I can’t imagine us ever being uncontrolled again.

[@mrdude2702]

I live at a residential private airfield where I see this issue of late calls upon entering the pattern or flying the incorrect pattern (left north/right south due to noise abatement requirements) frequently. I've also witnessed numerous times planes departing one direction and then seconds later another plane departing the opposite direction. At no time did either pilot announce their departure (I was monitoring the frequency) and due to a slope of the runway neither pilot could see the other. I've mentioned this at community meetings and receive acknowledgements that it is occurring but they supplement their statement with "radio calls are not required by the FAR's at an uncontrolled private field. Each pilot is responsible for their aircraft". I walk away shaking my head saying "it's only a matter of time". One neighbor appears on a KZbin video where another pilot is complaining about his radio demeanor and lack of cooperation at another field not far away when he cut right into the middle of a heavy pattern. When I brought the video to my neighbor's attention, he just laughed and said "that guy's a nut". hmmmm. Thanks for covering this incident Juan. I plan to mention this video and incident at the next community meeting.

[@alexanderstavroudis6901]

1982, touch and goes, Salina, KS (SLN), no tower then. Coming in on final with my instructor, I watched a Saberliner shoot out underneath me and land. They did a straight in approach without radioing in. Man, was my instructor pissed. I was 16 at the time and have many fond memories of learning to fly there and Abilene. My heart goes out to his family and friends.

[@leonjohansson6542]

Working on my private I was in the pattern for the Nut Tree runway 20. I was in a C172 from Travis Aero Club with my instructor to do some touch and goes. It was a busy day with 5 other planes in the pattern, everyone calling there positions and taking their turns to get on the ground. Downwind had to be extended quite a bit to allow separation. After I land, I am rolling out getting ready to accelerate, but before I rotate, a Piper comes 10 feet over the top of me. The pilot (a lady who has not made one radio call to this point) comes on the radio, "Where did you come from?"

[@theblackbear211]

Thank you, Juan. Excellent observations as always.

[@hunterreeves6525]

Yeah I remember not liking ctaf calls as a new student but by now I definitely get it as a cfi. Also this accident makes me happy I’ve been teaching upwind calls which I don’t hear much of. Just saying “upwind _ making left traffic/departing wherever” because it seems like an upwind call may have helped here

[@tele767]

Improper entry into the traffic pattern by the Swift pilot. Per AC90-66B, “Entry to the downwind leg should be at a 45 degree angle abeam the midpoint of the runway to be used for landing.” This allows downwind traffic approaching midfield some time to see inbound 45 traffic. And the entry aircraft to see downwind traffic.

[@kylenobes1]

I was over a busy uncontrolled airport on Long Island once, spiraling down from 7K feet making a radio call every 1000 feet or so and once I landed the airport manager made a snarky comment to me saying that I was hogging his radio frequency.

[@swooshdave]

Did you remind him you got to the ground safely?

[@wadepatton2433]

Snarky idiot. Talk is cheap and the frequency exists to serve the pilots not the airport.

[@willnelson5692]

Really... and what was the manager planning on using the freq for, America's Got Talent?

[@BruceM-o4h]

@@kylenobes1 to be fair, here in the populous northeastern U.S. there may have been half a dozen or more airports within radio range sharing the CTAF. From 7000’ feet your transmissions could easily have been stepping on folks you couldn’t hear. What was CTAF, 123.0?

[@ronnigibbons9888]

landed at many non towered arpt. and they can get quite busy where you cant get a word in edgewise to when you can hear a pin drop. One must always follow procedures and communicate their position and intentions . Never be afraid of talking too much in a non towered environment , us old timers once thought that excessive calls were a sign of inexperience not so any longer.

[@daveshepherd7582]

I imagine there is a lot of “routine” maneuvers happening at uncontrolled airports. Stay vigilant and fly safe everyone!

[@ronaldgreene3580]

Thank you Juan. Communication and looking outside are very important at non- towered airports. I’m also thinking ot other accidents in the pattern that have a low wing plane above and High wing plane below coming into the pattern at the same time. Very hard to see each other.

[@medic1120]

Nice review of CTAF policies….. I completely forgot about the 10 mile recommendation….. thanks Juan

[@danielmorez1234]

Top notch breakdown and analysis. 🙏

[@johnknowlton3998]

I’m not a pilot but I love your videos Juan!! It’s so sad when these pilots make simple mistakes and loose their lives.❤️. I wish I was able to get a pilots license and own my own plane. Thank you and keep the videos coming. I look forward for them 👍🇺🇸

[@BruceM-o4h]

@@johnknowlton3998 worse is making simple mistakes and killing someone else

[@howardnielsen6220]

Juan. Always good information. Thank You

[@donwhitton7791]

Classic High wing low, Low wing high circuit situation. Here in Canada, we can only enter mid downwind from overhead field or straight in downwimd at a "CTAF" airport. IF it's a "MF" (mandatory frequency) designated airport (dedicated FSS or Unicom services), can you join 45deg, to the downwind.

[@MattWong117]

I was at KMEV doing run-up and monitoring traffic when this occurred. The swift did make a call before the announcement of the 45 to downwind. I reported this to the NTSB but it was something to the effect that they were northbound and would stay to the west of the field towards hwy 50. I elected to wait to put a visual on the traffic before departing and was very confused when I couldn't see or hear it and then next thing was the 206's emergency engine out call. Wasn't until a few minutes later when I departed that I saw the swift in the field and put the pieces together. Sad day for all.

[@45KevinR]

Interesting. This would build a picture in the Cessna minds that the other plane was out there, but also not in the area they were working. It might even be (part of) their reason for flying crosswind a little nearer the field than they did on the go around. I'd already been thinking that the Cessna announcing its landing, but not that it was a touch and go, probably added to the Swift thinking that the pattern was empty during his entry. Of course if the T&G had been a real go around the Cessna might have been too busy to make additional calls, so assuming empty skies (even just a little) too long into the pattern would be a self inflicted hazard anyway. Tragic that this took someone so skilled and liked. Though it could easily have been all 3 pilots lost. I only deal with road traffic, and behaviours are getting worse and worse. We live in a busier, fuller world, but people operate much more casually (complacent), or on ego (assumption, presumption), which can be terrifying even on the ground.

[@calcutronsmith9198]

@@45KevinR Yeah the swift may have assumed the 206 had landed, but even if someone says they are on final, you shouldn't assume they are no longer a factor until they call clear of the runway. They could have crashed onto the runway or become disabled or they could have made a last minute decision to do a go-around, all of which will affect you if you are entering the pattern to land.

[@Pepesilvia267]

In my mind a 45 entry is done midfield. I imagine the 206 was looking left towards downwind after hearing the Swifts entry plans but sadly the Swifts was slightly above to the right. The high wind of the 206 probably hid it and I can’t imagine the pilots were looking to the right. I have entered a downwind on a 45 at the start of the downwind very rarely and given the track of the Swift, I would have entered midfield. Do others usually do midfield or not? Is there a best practice?

[@MattWong117]

@ midfield is best practice but with the terrain of the area it’s common for planes to enter from there this swift did.

[@BruceM-o4h]

@@MattWong117 good point that local conditions such as terrain avoidance can modify the normal formula. I’d been wondering about that as a factor when folks posted criticism of the Swift pilot for making his 45 to the corner not to midfield. I know I’ll do things like that to modify my flight path so it’s better aligned with terrain or emergency landing spots in case of engine out.

[@TobinTwinsHockey]

I was meeting a pilot buddy for a $100 hamburger once and he made fun of me for announcing 10.3 miles southwest from the field. I responded…..”that’s where I was”

[@melted_cheetah]

hopefully the hamburger was good!

[@a.n.7863]

I can’t imagine a scenario where less situational information is preferable to more.

[@TobinTwinsHockey]

@@a.n.7863 exactly

[@TobinTwinsHockey]

@@melted_cheetah always is!

[@9deebee]

A $100 hamburger? That's what it was about fifty years ago 😁 It's gotta be at least $500 now.

[@dannyharris8819]

Thank you Juan. You’re the best. We can all use encouragement to be better pilots and not see safety as an afterthought. We appreciate your advice and support. PS. I have video and photos of the Camarillo fires/ CAL fire helos if you are interested. I do not have socials.

[@d.t.4523]

Thank you Juan, keep working.

[@kamakaziozzie3038]

What a wild incident! Great analysis

[@bafiredept]

It’s surreal to see a plane you flew (the 206 cap plane) involved in an accident. Thank you for such a detailed report and saddened for the fatality and his family. Definitely cap made me a better pilot all around and yes constant radio reports even if you think your alone it’s always a good practice.

[@elizabethannferrario7113]

Thank you Juan,

[@jaredjones6292]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think that instead of the pilot asking his CFI to check his iPad, he should have got on the radio and told the other pilot they couldn't see him and ask his exact position.

[@EstorilEm]

That’s a pretty unusual request at an uncontrolled airport - unless they were aware of an imminent potential conflict (which they obviously weren’t) they wouldn’t have done so. I mean, in a perfect world, you’re probably correct - but I rarely hear calls like that. Usually people just get cut off or they have a visual and say to their buddy “that guy wasn’t even talking on CTAF!” or something. Normalization of deviance for sure. It is fascinating how quickly ADS-B has become this miracle situational awareness aid in the cockpit though - I don’t think that was a primary intention of the technology at all, but it certainly is now. It’s almost frustrating when you encounter flights like this with aircraft or routes that don’t require ADS-B.

[@willnelson5692]

It is faster to establish an altitude separation. State your altitude and request theirs. Given a high wing/low wing conflict, spotting the other aircraft may not be possible to do quickly.

[@BruceM-o4h]

@@EstorilEm actually it’s not uncommon at uncontrolled fields with competent pilots, in my experience. Plus, they were just made aware of an imminent conflict. Actual not potential. They obviously did not recognize that. In other words, they blew it.

[@BruceM-o4h]

@@willnelson5692 state position, altitude, intentions. They did none of those.

[@tommihommi1]

at that point it was already too late calling out *immediately* after dons transmission might have prevented the midair. They likely assumed the swift was a reasonable person and calling from much, much further away than what he was actually doing

[@maryl923]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I wish EVERY CFI in the country would watch this and SHARE it with their students. I fly out of a small uncontrolled field that now has a "flight school" and WOW. Their radio procedures are unbelievably LACKING. Every day is a midair looking for a place to happen. The "CFIs" (I use these terms loosely, sadly) apparently don't seem to think the Laws of Physics apply to them. It's beyond depressing, and SCARY, to think these students are all learning such awful habits. Simply, the definition of UNSAFE.

[@samhill3496]

Confluence of factors. Good report Juan Browne

[@acasualviewer5861]

These are good points. As a mid time student pilot, I don't think I've ever looked for traffic on the crosswind. I need to be more actively looking at all times on the pattern really, not just as I'm turning base or turning final. The pattern is designed for us to find other planes.

[@andyb618]

It has always been my understanding that the 45 degree entry to the pattern was always made at the mid field downwind.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

Here is a case where nothing illegal happened, no negligence, no inexperience, no real mistakes, but just a combination of a lack of “best practices” combined with high-low wing conjunction, and the odds of something like this being so incredibly low, just a few seconds somewhere and he’d still be alive. Flying takes a most serious and committed mind at all times. Remain humble out there!