Cops and Race | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]

[@archstanton3430]

If only the view count on this was 62 million instead of 62 thousand.

[@celfhelp]

most of america is not ready for this level of civil dialog or critical thought, regardless of topic (sadly)

[@PsychoBible]

Sorry, your comment had 62 likes, but I just made it 63.

[@dreamsofturtles1828]

@@celfhelp Today was the first day i became aware of these guys. I felt something was terribly wrong with whats been going on, shallowness , pandering and strict adherance to an ideology that mustn't be questioned. I wanted deeper. Found it! Finally some depth.

[@pepps779]

Sorta wish someone could just hack CNN and have this streamed on their channel for an hour, as it is far better than their normal content.

[@RalphDratman]

@@celfhelp I am ready.

[@akazaka3578]

I was so depressed with humanity before watching this. So glad people can have an open-minded conversation where people listen to one another and willing to discover they are wrong, and you honestly want get closer to the truth to improve society in regards to human well-being. No monetary/political agenda. Thanks so much and keep this up!

[@alakasam6921]

Patrick Williams me to

[@bgirdler3156]

Dear John and Glenn, Thank you both for your measured, rational and thoughtful analysis of this and every other issue you address. You make us all the richer being such an integral, if under-acknowledged, part of the greater public narrative of our culture. I wish more people of all backgrounds could benefit from your wisdom. Bless you both.

[@jeansall1099]

B Girdler I second that. Unfortunately too much partisanship and lack of nuance everytime those issues are touched upon. At least there are some voices of reason. Coleman Hughes is great too

[@peterroundy6681]

Thank you for the discussion. John justifies Omar’s looting because Omar was brought up in a bubble with limited perspective, “knowing nothing else.” Glenn thinks that Omar’s actions are morally reprehensible. Is a Muslim who grows up thinking all infidels and apostates should be beheaded morally justifiable because it’s all he knows? Because he grew up in an Islamic bubble? What makes sense?

[@YETI-99]

@@peterroundy6681 that's a great question about Muslims I would assume that the analogy applies seeing as the concept is the same. Although it would seem that there is also alot of difference as well I wonder this question myself as an American soldier.

[@BenBokser]

​@@YETI-99 This question really cuts to some deep issues with morality and free will. From a certain religious perspective (loosely based on Rabbi Tzadok of Lublin) , looking backwards every bad deed was caused by cultural influences / circumstances / divine will and can thus be forgiven on the personal level upon such a realization, but in the moment we live as if responsible for our actions because we experience free will and moral obligation. Society's function (within the USA or worldwide towards ISIS etc.) requires the messages and incentives of moral discourse and punishment which assume responsibility and free will and must act as if those are the case. So an ISIS executioner (assuming the rare case he was not exposed to any other ideas) is not morally justifiable at all. He is our enemy and must be fought. But on a deeper human level we can understand and even empathize with his human condition and the limited free will he has. It doesn't make his actions moral but can delineate our conflict and remind us of deeper human unity despite conflict on the practical level.

[@karenpidcock9872]

B Girdler - Yes, I get what needs to be heard by these two, but am uneasy about their seeming to dismiss a policeman’s killing of Floyd George, as a necessary thing to do!!

[@JoeLeasure]

Brilliant discussion. I'm speechless. America needs to hear this.

[@RonnieD1970]

@Annabel Lee I love these two and that is amazing now a young dude like Colman is being quoted. Amazing conversation and would love to see all 3 of them together

[@Will_Moffett]

Rambling victim blaming by self loathing crazies. All should be shielded from this. And yep, I didn't even listen to it. That's how smart I is.

[@JoeLeasure]

@@Will_Moffett There wasn't any victim blaming in this. And criticizing something without listening to it is literally prejudging it.

[@skreeeboy]

@@JoeLeasure, I think Will Moffett might have been making an attempt at irony here.

[@Will_Moffett]

@@JoeLeasure Ok I will listen to it, or at least as much as I can stomach it. People like this are the most profoundly grotesque creations of racism, so to me even looking at them is like looking at two of the creature from The Fly with Jeff Goldbloom, the worst iteration at the end. After reading your claim, I still put the over/under on victim blaming at 5 minutes.

[@hardingapril]

CanNOT wait to read John’s anti-racism-as-religion book

[@nathandoan3862]

Yeah, but what does he really know about religion as such?

[@mellowtron214]

I was pleasantly surprised to hear that John had been using the same critique of “social justice” as a religion that I have. See, I am firmly on the left, but I came to my _political awakening_ from a position of atheism here in the hyper-religious context of small town Texas. So the sort of ideological center mass which my worldview revolves has a strong dose of anti-theism within it. And when I started to notice the same aversions to facts, the disdain of data, the presuppositions of faith, the excommunications, the purity tests and backstabbing, the blasphemy, the allyship as atonement, evil as bigotry and divinity as activism, the original sin as “oppressor status” even simply assumed status as such, and the many other through lines between social justice orthodoxy and abrahamic dogmatism, it became very clear to me that this is indeed a moral system with its own in-group preference, it’s own historical reading, moral worldview, and a kind of salvation narrative that puts it firmly within the fallow territory of religious orthodoxy. Except where I was never a traditional believer in any gods, I was a firm believer in social justice as I am describing it. Then I looked in to the data thinking *it would support my arguments.* and nothing has driven me further from this ideology more than basic stats and data and logic. The cure for theism is the same cure for absurdist social justice zealotry. Information, logic, and perspective.

[@hardingapril]

@@nathandoan3862 I don't think John is pretending to expertise on religions or meaning systems more broadly, but I think the comparison does illuminate some of the systemic and/or functional features of how anti-racism operates in our society. Did you catch the piece on the topic in The Atlantic in 2018 (The Virtue Signalers Won't Change the World)?

[@AdamGeest]

@@nathandoan3862 McWhorter told us back in 2000 that racism was effectively over. He's also claimed that the perceived uptick in police related killings was in no small part a byproduct of the media's disproportionate focus on said killings.

[@AdamGeest]

@@hardingapril anti-racism in general or that specific breed of anti-racism ensconced in our universities? Cultural and cognitive anthropologists tell us that religion is universal and that it involves an idiosyncratic inflection of some of the most fundamental features of our cognitive endowment. That this evolved and salient social behavior has been coopted in service of one or another of our secular institutions comes as no surprise. Religion is likely isomorphic with many secular institutions in both profound and superficial ways. But should this detract from or otherwise delegitimize any of the truth claims advanced by these institutions? We should probably distinguish between structural and functional homologies as well. Art practices in human beings are structurally homologous with bowerbird sexual displays.There are similarities in terms of, for example, the cognitive processes involved in appreciating works of art and the female bowerbird's appreciation of the male bowerbird's nest. Importantly, structural homologies don't require that we assume any necessary functional equivalencies. For example, we needn't conclude on the basis of the abovementioned structural homology that human artists paint and compose symphonies primarily to get laid.

[@adm3345]

You guys saved my day. I've been arguing with close friends about this topic and straining friendships. The more I want to discuss and explore, the more they want to shut down, resort to name calling and sanctimony. I've shared your video and I hope as many people as possible watch it to see what a rational, logical, objective conversation looks like.

[@karenwright4890]

ADM- I am sharing this to with many people including my children. I can relate to the frustration you’re feeling. I think it’s important to discuss multiple factors. This is the only way we are going to solve the problems of racism.

[@GowithFlorence]

I'm in the exact same boat. Have been in discussions with two people separately(one of them a family member).. And came away from one of them questioning myself and my so called unconscious biases... I've seen the compilation videos of police brutality... I have seen the evil that can come in the form of a police officer... But refuse to belive that its the majority of police or that its the majority of people. This is a humanity issue and dividing us into race over it is dividing us... That's not to say that the issue of racism does not need to be addressed, it does... But the current discourse is toxic.

[@derwinlowery]

share the info with blacks in these government issued ghettos around america , where people have no hope let alone opportunity. Couple of neckleheads using a few big words dont mean shit!!

[@alakasam6921]

I don't dare bring this up with half of my friends, I feel very confused and frustrated and alone, I don't know what sources to trust and who's in the wrong..

[@KevinBriggins]

I just found this channel and I really enjoyed this conversation. There's something about hearing someone express your own thoughts on an issue to make you feel as though you're not crazy when everyone else is telling you that you are.

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

I found it about a year ago and it has changed my life.

[@QuixoticIgnotism]

Incredible conversation - you guys need more viewership.

[@seanmckinney9342]

Wow, a real adult conversation.

[@Moosedeuce]

Refreshing isn’t it?

[@laxmannate07]

These guys should be being platformed by the media.

[@Will_Moffett]

Too bad the participants are self loathing crazies tho, huh?

[@seanmckinney9342]

@@Will_Moffett in you opinion.

[@Will_Moffett]

@@seanmckinney9342 Another way to describe them would be the profoundly grotesque apotheoses of racism, special cases of internalized racism. Their disease is that racism is not just passively invasive in them and sickening them, but has hijacked their intellectual faculties and runs them like zombies.

[@vitruviuspolio]

As always, a cool bath of reason after walking through the hot blaze of media and public opinion.

[@segasys1339]

It's still worth making an effort to consume some MSM and social media. It's good to know what people are using as a reference point.

[@karenwright4890]

Amen

[@karenwright4890]

I really enjoyed your conversation gentleman. It’s so refreshing to hear people discuss honestly and openly the complex issues.

[@archstanton3430]

Nicely put. This was exactly the therapy I needed. Just hearing an honest conversation about this is so refreshing.

[@rockmanmanson8006]

@@segasys1339 KZbinrs like these guys tell you what they personallyh think. The msm tells you what they WANT you to think.

[@wojakwoes3970]

I'm one of McWhorter's linguistics students via The Great Courses. Saw this video and clicked out of sheer curiosity. I wasn't disappointed; very good conversation, gentlemen!

[@philibusters]

That is also the path I used to follow John McWhorter and later Glenn Loury.

[@Werebat]

@@philibusters Me too. I teach ESL at a school with a large Cape Verdean population, and when I heard about McWhorter (a Black linguist who specialized in creole languages) I had to see what he might have to say about the creole language of Cape Verde. From there I learned more about his views on antiracism, and from there I got exposure to Glenn Loury and Coleman Hughes. Brilliant, brilliant men, and I'll confess that part of me really likes them because they let me assure myself that maybe I'm not crazy.

[@Huntgolfride]

Im a retired police officer. I chose that profession for altruistic reasons for my community. I cant even explain where that need to serve came from entirely, but it might have some roots in my childhood where I was targeted by gangs of First Nations children for a period of 5 years and beaten up over and over again many times in front of people in authority who did nothing to help. I applied too many services and eventually gained employment in a large deployed service. I had no input into where I was assigned within that service, or what the demographic of the people I would be helping/policing would be. It is nonsense on its face to suggest that a police officer would be risking his life helping people in communities for the purpose of harming them? What happens is that police officers react over time to their circumstance. They get to know who the bad guys are, who the gangs are, who the problem makers are and who presents the most risk to them. In many cases, it is reactionary behaviour to what a population of people present toward them. If no amount of effort on my part has any positive effect over years and years, crime doesn't improve, behaviour doesn't change, and the community keeps hurling abuse and violence toward me, my ability to show the same empathy and enthusiasm after 15 years is far less than on day 1. Every one of the people in these encounters are victims of each others circumstance. This event in Minneapolis didn't happen in the time span of 8:46 seconds. It started years and years before. I also reject that an officer who knew he was in public, being filmed, and harassed by an angry crowd, chose that moment to let his racism slip out and just kill that man. I'm not even sure that the same act on a healthy person would have killed that person, so was it murder? or negligent death? or an unfortunate accident? A police officer over time, in an effort to cope in circumstances he cannot escape or change, naturally discards his emotional responses to these people or events to survive. The missing information is the life experiences over long and short term that led both of these people to come together that day. No one knows but the people involved. An entire population of people are now trying to read the officers mind and assign nefarious thoughts but they have limited evidence to support any of it. I wait for the body camera footage, which exists, and we have not seen. I am not racist, I have been the victim of being falsely accused of racism toward first nation people many times. Of course only when I policed a community full of first nation people. I often tell people that say. "We have a problem with police brutality". Just swap out "police" with "black" and see how that flies. Each of these events are very unique like a fingerprint and I contend have nothing to do with race. If I policed the toughest part of Chicago over many years, vs an officer who policed an upper class black community who acted lawfully, we would be different people in response to that environment. Telling black children to fear the police makes it impossible for the police to gain any trust, which makes the interactions negative, and over time results in this. It's a loop that starts early. We don't have a police brutality problem, we have a response to police problem. I know of almost no cases of police killing cooperative people. Also, the black Harvard graduate bird watcher was carrying dog treats in his pocket and attempted to lure her dog away from her after issuing a veiled threat "your not going to like what Im going to do". I know, when Im watching birds, Im not carrying treats to lure dogs away. Both of those people are flawed.

[@glennloury3677]

Learned a lot from your comment, Wes Burton. Thanks

[@1600-i6p]

"What kind of theory have we got of human behavior where it's this 1-dimensional thing where economic circumstances determine everything, and there's no room for character, values and morality?" Never would have thought I'd hear this from a sociologist. This is exactly what we need to bring back to these types of discussions.

[@alyoshka6]

That quote was one of the highlights of the discussion for me as well.

[@Chimpsquat]

We need to see one of you on Joe Rogan. Increase exposure 1000x.

[@wodenravens]

@@billswathko5203 He's a famous podcaster, not a fighter or a comedian, or entering the world's tallest man contest.

[@MichaelJMacIsaac]

@CalvinSomething I just tweeted him the link. One tweet won't work.

[@Dontbustthecrust]

@@wodenravens 🤣

[@bettworld]

Get on Joe Rogan!! He is a great interviewer and conversationalist.

[@kevinfrancis2619]

woden1809 rogan is def a comedian and has an extensive martial arts background

[@superwild]

I wish I could get every person in America to watch this right now. There'd be so much more calm and sanity in the world. The evils that desperately need to be addressed (police brutality, gun violence, crime, etc.) would be confronted by cross-racial alliances of concerned citizens, while the toxic element of race -- that gets injected into everything, rouses up passions and sends people fleeing to opposite corners of the room from which they can then throw darts at each other while ensuring nothing of substance ever gets done -- would finally be stamped out. One can hope....

[@stephj9378]

Share it, then.i do. As i go through the day in my community, I share websites, youtube channels ...AND i warn them NOT to take the vaccine. Start with - and end with - prayer.Our nation is worthy of an extended life with peace and prosperity for all.

[@IkeOg]

The kind of people inclined to watch this kind d of content are already calm. It's not the conversation that makes you calm; it's your calmness that allows you to rationally engage.

[@stephj9378]

@@IkeOg well said.

[@plaidpaisley5918]

I want to cry. Thank you Glenn (and John) for reinforcing that I’m not crazy. I feel like I’m losing my mind.

[@danascully7358]

Fantastic! I can't get enough of intellectual conversations like this, especially now when people are trying to shut down this kind of speech. I feel like I'm starving for it. It's so soul-enriching and mentally stretching. Thank you.

[@bertrandkurtrussell2873]

I felt like I was taking crazy pills in dealing with the news and my social media feeds lately. This conversation brings such clarity and needs to be heard by more people right now.

[@huckleberryharrison6248]

No black square?

[@bertrandkurtrussell2873]

@@huckleberryharrison6248 The black square thing is so cringe.

[@huckleberryharrison6248]

@@bertrandkurtrussell2873 It was like Kramer at the aids walk when he didn't want to wear the ribbon.

[@bertrandkurtrussell2873]

@@huckleberryharrison6248 haha Exactly

[@huckleberryharrison6248]

@@bertrandkurtrussell2873 It's cool I can just reference that and you get it.

[@archstanton3430]

12:33 - Holy shit. It's SO refreshing to hear someone speak this much truth without hedging and dancing around it. Thank you, Glenn. John needs to get on your level.

[@Karch.Dah-Veed]

I LOVE your conversations and the rare, precious, and valuable intellectual integrity with which you approach your topics of discussion. Thanks gents.

[@0fuxTaken]

Fastest click ever. Was waiting for this one for days.

[@saintlybeginnings]

Ditto! Was getting aggravated as I couldn’t remember the name of this channel- but thankfully I was able to eventually locate it!!

[@BrandonJohnson-kt7uj]

Same here!

[@commanderkeynes7314]

Same here. Basically the one place I know of where I can get a rational opinion of these types of events.

[@skywalkersounds7020]

Yessss

[@wowomah6194]

Same. Desperately need to hear voices that were not the right and left obsessively telling us how to feel and what to believe

[@daffyduck4674]

I’m sure I’m far from the only person for whom one of the reasons we’re so grateful for these conversations is it’s so nice just hearing serious adults discuss important issues as serious adults. I personally find that impossible as every take I see from friends and acquaintances is entirely reflective and performative. There are things you’re supposed to say, and not saying them (even if your intention is nothing more than trying to work through incredibly complex issues) will achieve nothing more than being banished from polite society. I’m utterly clueless as to how that changes, but listening to Glen & John at least reassures not everyone has gone crazy.

[@birtaudabraham5943]

I spent the last four days waiting for these guys to come with another great conversation because of the recent events that have taken place. And once again, Glenn and John didn't disappoint!!! GREAT JOB!!!

[@robertjohnson5838]

Good to see Glenn Loury again. I was the guy at your U of Chicago paper in the early 80s on moral responsibility in the black community who was asking you if you shouldn't instead be sticking with Longitudinal Survey Data on work, education etc. and you smiled, almost in relief, after dealing with too many leftos. I gave up on academe, got into computers and have been happy ever since, but it's good to see you're still trying to have some influence on public policy with your brilliant mind and your OPEN mind. Keep on keepin' on. Sounds like both of us got the Holy Ghost or something along the way.

[@Gearyco]

Tony Timpa is the white version of George Floyd.

[@Brian-gw5hg]

Hadn't heard of Timpa until Sam Harris brought him up in a recent podcast

[@Jason-si9cx]

pretty similar, except he was not a criminal as far as i can see, and called the cops for help.

[@Brian-gw5hg]

@@Jason-si9cx Timpa seems to be the counterfactual that Glenn was asking for.

[@markbrownner6565]

and what about the black cop who shot a white woman...not a word about it...

[@RRaider]

White version of Floyd is Tony Timpa.

[@seanwelch9421]

ALWAYS tell us about the other podcast yall are on! I'm going to find it right now. We love you guys. Thank you.

[@Werebat]

They have ANOTHER podcast? (Head spinning) Well, I know what I'll be listening to on my walk today...

[@omgpickle]

To the point you're making at around 31:00, John McWorter. Thát is my whole issue with this movement. Everytime I see a black man gets killed by police, I cannot trust anything I read in the news articles. I have to get my news from somewhere else. I will instantly believe there were actions taken by the black man that put the police in a position that, sadly, led up to his death. I hate thinking like this, but it is created by the journalists. And almost everytime a story gets big this is the case. And never a retraction or an update by the journalists about what really happened. They are race-baiting to the maximum. They are trying to create division.

[@Ahabite]

I suspect I am not alone in having this experience: Someone you've known for a long time, an acquaintance or better, condemns you as a racist for not agreeing with them on every single claim they make. Claims, I would add, that they pass off as arguments, lacking any and all citation, but said, as they are undoubtedly felt, with intense emotional certainty. These are often the same people who lament the attention spans of the public, our 24 hour news cycle, and themselves can't follow their own argument, sentence to sentence. I return to this channel daily to prop up what little hope I do have that careful, principled analysis can stand properly alongside emotion and soaring rhetoric. Thank you gentlemen.

[@JNYC-gb1pp]

Definitely something perculiar going on. If I were a superstitutous I might think a spell has been cast on 80% of the people.Its weird how they use the term 'science' as though it were an entity..."science says'. lol..There is no 'science' there is only milion of people assessing info and coming to different or same conclusions.The second I hear them use the word 'science' as though that word alone constitutes an argument, i realize I'm dealing with an ideologue!

[@serengeti4027]

@@JNYC-gb1pp you've actually found people who give well reasoned arguments via studies/citations? Because I have yet to find anyone who will. Their arguments are always rooted in the history of slavery (which is a valid point to an extent). Nearly all of the statistics I've seen on the relationship between the police and black people would indicate that the issue is far less severe than advertised.

[@NoMirr0r]

Agreed. I’m basically hated by many friends and family at the moment.

[@DustinTheGreat1123]

Glenn speaking about his hypothetical young child being one of the most well positioned people of African descent in the history of the world was particularly salient to me, very powerful.

[@c_average4618]

If I am walking down the street and a Labrador retriever is loose I will be saying "I wonder who's dog that is" if it was a pit bull I would be saying "oh shit who's dog is that" meaning perception is everything. Unfortunately black people are perceived in a way that sparks fear which is beneficial in some ways and very negative in others. The only thing I have ever believed since I was a child that white people have over me is the benefit of the doubt. The belief that is pounded into black people's head from the day you are born by the media and entertainment that we are victims creates the chip and also the perception.

[@markcounseling]

To arrive at the degree of emotional and intellectual honesty displayed by these two men requires many years of difficult and sometimes painful self-reflection that is aimed at rooting out any and all BS, combined with extremely keen observance of society. Most people haven't done that work and so either won't make sense of it or will find themselves triggered, at the very beginning of the journey that these two have long travelled. Regardless of whether or not one comes to the same conclusion, how does one not feel great respect for their effort?

[@gabrielenriquemartinez]

Where have I been that I'm finding these two conversing only now, in June of 2020?

[@IkeOg]

You've got some catching up to do 😁

[@benjaminharrisongray9079]

They're under the radar, so you must point it lower. You're not going to hear this in the mainstream, of course that should go without saying.

[@mena94x3]

Glenn Loury’s entire statement and premise around this time . . . 13:48 . . . AMEN! 100% agree. It’s _not_ one-dimensional. You cannot blame poverty / systemic or institutional racism which lead to economic poverty entirely for violent crime. What about character, values and morality? Those things _exist_ all around the world, including the USA, in poverty-stricken areas. It is absolutely present. To believe otherwise is to believe people living in poverty are _incapable_ , like it’s beyond their control to have empathy for human life beyond their own or to have the _capacity_ to instill in their children character, values and morality.

[@penelopebowman159]

Thank you John for speaking with some empathy regarding "Omar's probable enviroment " dictating what all he may know. I respect both of you guys intellectual knowledge and debate of the issues but seeing one basically murdered the way this man was regardless of race is wrong! Glenn you speak truth, have a little mercy.

[@burleybater]

Yeah, that was a bit of a voyage of intimate information that might create a broader understanding. That is what I come here for.

[@aaronfromohio8895]

Harsh truths and a firm call for responsibility, from someone who legitimately wants to see us succeed, is what we young men need. It’s the missing fathering many of us are reeling from the lack of. True, manly encouragement will go further than soft enabling in terms of channeling the wild nature of masculinity to productive ends.

[@jeansall1099]

Penelope Bowman I laughed though when he said “I wouldn’t let him in my house”

[@sdjohnston67]

Thank you so much for this. I so appreciate this conversation and admire you both greatly. May we all follow your example in having much more real, honest discourse about such disturbing things.

[@alan2112drums]

I want to thank AIU (Atheism Is Unstoppable) for mentioning you guys on his You Tube video about the recent "race" events. He spoke very highly of you and after watching several of your videos, I understand why he endorsed you. Too bad your message falls on deaf ears of those who need it most.

[@bcismar]

Gentlemen, Thank you. Your contribution to the dialog on race relations and all that is wrapped around this very important and sensitive issue is insightful and refreshing *and* frightening. I agree emphatically with the core your observations. Yes even those where you hold opposing views! Because there often are balanced opposite appearing truths, opposite sides of the same coin if you will. The frightening aspect is how little discussions of this depth and honesty is so rare and unwelcome at exactly the time when it is so needed. How will the light get out? This discussion by two fine intellectuals who openly and honestly and with appropriate passion, is exactly what is both desperately needed and entirely lacking in our society. This should be broadcast on national TV and studied in our schools. I pray God will further bless you both. Thank you, thank you again and again.

[@BrandonJohnson-kt7uj]

I’ve been eagerly anticipating commentary from you two!!! Yes!

[@DataResearchGroup]

Thank you Mr. Loury and Mr. McWhorter... this is one of the most thought provoking discussions on the topic I have heard all year! You gentlemen should get your own channel together.

[@alexg4150]

I would have loved to have seen John, Glenn or both (at their current age) together with Christopher Hitchens on CSPAN in the 90s

[@livmilesparanormalromanceb6891]

That would have been wonderful.

[@naaaateeee]

Helllll yeah

[@OldMoneyAudition09]

Wet dream

[@robertjohnson5838]

Glenn and John would have made a fool of a lightweight pseudointellectual like Hitchens. Supporting the War in Iraq over bleeding Kurdistan?! REALLY?!?!? ROTFLMAO

[@Lopfff]

The Hitch abides.

[@Aiphiae]

As a white person who is increasingly uncomfortable with how to navigate the landscape where I'm feeling like I'm a) vilified, and b) walking on eggshells - while also being compassionate to the concerns of non-whites - I have to say I find your discussions absolutely inspiring and grounding.

[@samalander88]

Same. When he said these kinds of behaviors incite little sympathy it’s the truth. I, like you, feel vilified and hated. I don’t want to participate in a movement who labels me a racist monster. But these two, they’ve given me new perspective. It’s refreshing. For sure.

[@lonniefarrare1297]

I appreciate you guys! We need to be having these conversations, because I'm tired of the religion of racism .Those cops were fired immediately , we didn't even give it time for the legal system to work.

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

Lonnie Farrare - I agree with you generally. Specifically however, the cops were fired because they lied by saying that the man in custody was physically resisting arrest.

[@lisamontez9401]

@@StrategicWealthLLC I doubt that. Cops are generally not fired for lying. That might be the reason as paper, but we know that is not the case.

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

Lisa Montez - Fair point. I simply cited what was stated in the paper.

[@GoSuMonSteR]

The legal system to work? Wow, what a joke...

[@adamburke1088]

I havnt watched the conversation yet, but I already know that its going to be worth my time. Thank you both for helping people achieve greater clarity.

[@joshuadanielrocks]

Both of these men are titans of thought. I often lean more towards John McWhorter's views. I agree with his philosophical and moral theories as they seem to be based on a very strong determinism.

[@damonhage7451]

I have a feeling our disagreements here come from different premises that hopefully we will get to, but there is no such thing as a "moral" theory if you accept determinism. That is a contradiction. If you have no choices, no ability to chose, then the question of "should you chose this or that" which is what morality about never comes up. Human beings have free will. You observe yourself making choices all the time. Many modern philosophers and scientists call that an "illusion" (which means they recognize the observations as well) but that is because they accept mechanical materialism, which there is no basis for. This leads them to have an invalid view of causality.

[@kevinob2495]

Just came here after seeing John on Brett Weinsteins podcast. I deeply appreciate this conversation, and am very happy to have discovered both of you.

[@paul_bellini]

When I sold my house 4 years ago, our realtor advised us to remove our family photos from the walls as well. I'm white. Just fyi.

[@elaineburnett5230]

As a former Realtor, I can tell you her advice did not reflect your ethnicity. It is a proven fact, that most potential home buyers react to family photos to indicate the Seller may be still emotionally tied to their home, and will be hard to negotiate a deal.

[@paul_bellini]

@@elaineburnett5230 Yes, that was explained to us, too.

[@PatrickBusch0]

@@paul_bellini Then you posting your comment, implying that the realtor's advice was based in race, indicates you did not believe the realtor's reasoning?

[@ASHERUISE]

@@elaineburnett5230 Yeah, you don't want to look like you're marking your territory if you're trying to sell a home.

[@paul_bellini]

@@PatrickBusch0 ​ No, I was providing my experience which suggests that advice is given regardless of race.

[@bradjenkins2861]

Black children grow up without a father 75% of the time. Might growing up without a father create a person that doesn't respect authority of a mostly male profession?

[@sethbase6960]

So glad I found out about these two. I’ve been starved for deep conversations surrounding race.

[@thelmabrown7644]

True Consultation! 1 hour 11 minutes 51 seconds of highly intelligent and articulate in-depth conversation! I watched it twice!!! These men are real and honest and not defined by the colour of their skin.

[@Djynni]

The police can help themselves by being more empathetic as well as more aware of their presence on camera. What disturbed me the most about George Floyd is that all four police didn't seem concerned at all by this man, who was not a wimpy-looking man, begging for help because he couldn't breathe.

[@riteousrighthand6144]

Have you seen the Tony Timpa video? The cops were literally cracking jokes as the guy suffocated.

[@TheWunWhoIzEpic]

Im hopeful body cams are an underrated technology that will help prevent almost all brutality via accountability.

[@kaunas888]

The police did nothing while Floyd suffocated because I believe that ignoring pleas for help was too often standard operating procedure.

[@erastourdenvern1]

Not to mention there was initially no accountability for their actions! Just more police brutality with 0 repercussions. Now finally I’m hearing the other 3 officers have been arrested as well. 10 days later. Had these protests and riots not occurred, they never would have been appropriately charged and sentenced.

[@gg_rider]

Dr. Mike Hansen not only explains that this WAS murder but why and how the cause of death was the cops' actions, from a medical perspective .. regardless of underlying conditions. If you're shot in the heart, doctors don't cite comorbidities like emphysema or heart disease. Defense will be arguing for that at the trial. EIGHT MINUTES AND 47 SECONDS is more than sufficient for mechanical asphyxiation, for anyone, including what is called asphyxiation when the carotid and jugular are cut off with minimal pressure, which cuts off oxygen builds up carbon dioxide, and causes the breathing parts of the brain to shut down. They didn't apply first aid such as CPR and they didn't even get off him when he went unconscious .. and his heart and breathing probably stopped as soon as he went unconscious. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqDUdqNsaMmof8U

[@erintaylor953]

I'm a white woman living in Minneapolis. Last fall while I was walking past a bus stop, two black men asked me if a certain bus came by there. I stopped and was friendly to them, and answered their question. I was raised to treat everyone with respect and kindness no matter what color their skin. As I stepped forward to continue on my way they blocked me. One of them forcefully ripped my bag off of my arm and the other beat my head in. I'm still having PTSD issues from this incident. It hasn't changed my opinion to think that all black men in hoodies that I pass on the street are going to hurt me. I have wondered what kind of media attention my incident would have received though, if I had been a black woman beat up and robbed by two white men. While I absolutely do believe that there needs to be some reform in our police department, I'm struggling with the large number of people (both in this community and across the country) telling me that I need to apologize for being white. Although I have never had to fear my life when being pulled over by an officer, the amount of opportunities that have come my way in life are far fewer than someone who believes all white people are born with privilege might think.

[@Teetee-kp3ph]

Erin I am sorry to hear that this happened to you. This must have been so traumatic.

[@valencia4215]

John, I never mentioned this until now but I met Eddie Glaude in a gourmet coffee shop a few years ago in MD just before speaking at a library to promote his Democracy in Black book. I happen to sit near him reading your book, Winning the Race. I asked what he would be speaking about. Upon learning it was pertaining to a trip down victim lane, I asked, why don't more black authors write about our successes and self-responsibility without constantly holding whites and the government accountable for whatever ails us, like this guy, pointing to your book? He was familiar with you, rolled his eyes, and gave me that "please, girl" look. How sad. I argued my position, and he became visibly flustered. I had no idea he was a pundit on Morning Joe but I'm glad I expressed a point of view contrary to the victim narratives he and others are tethered to. I am really excited that you will be writing an anti-racism book. I will be first in line to purchase many copies. Thank you.

[@valencia4215]

P.S. I agree with Glenn. Please accept the next invitation to appear, Glaude, if you are asked. You could easily run intellectual rings around this character with your "eyes wide shut." Geez, talk about religion...

[@a2libertarian-little-l359]

At minute 8:11, the question about would / could this have happened to someone that was white is posed. In fact this did but was not very MSM news-worthy. Here is the clip: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZSQdpKfbbZofZI. It is as hard to watch as the murder of George Floyd and as someone who works with young adults suffering from mental and behavioral health issues, this video is ever bit as overwhelmingly sad and tragic. Transformation change to prevent such events by any police person towards any human are what is needed above all.

[@overtonwindex9490]

I love the level of heat these gentlemen can fling at one another and still keep themselves grounded in civility

[@wescook2900]

Glenn and John, thank you for this candid debate, for your bravery to ask difficult questions that are not socially acceptable and looking at all sides of the race problem. I am a combat Veteran and I put my life on the line through 11 deployments over 15yrs and another 6 years as a civil servant. I served and am proud to have put my life on the line for the freedoms of all Americans regardless of color or background. For all practical purposes I have lived a mostly Caucasian Life despite my Mother being 100% Colombian and my father being 100% white which technically qualifies me as Hispanic and a minority. I speak Spanish poorly as well as another half a dozen languages from service in South Korea, East Africa, Iraq, and other locations across Europe. With the PC culture creating an environment where only Black People can comment on the Black community. How does a non-Black patriot who has proven their commitment to equal opportunity to personal freedom, human rights, and the rule of law for all "Peoples", provide effective participation to improving the state of current affairs? I am deeply saddened by what is happening to the country I love and have sacrificed for. It breaks my heart that the media continues to sensationalize race and clearly has no desire to quell the outrage of minority groups and perpetuates the identity politics that is killing our way of life.

[@shamsam4]

I'll watch this tomorrow, but I wanted to go ahead and like it. Y'all rule.

[@tonyflapperjack6928]

Sam Williamson always the calm voices in rough seas

[@ehall6042]

I can't thank you enough for posting this. This needs to be viewed urgently by everyone who professes to care about this issue.

[@Highintensityhealth]

Really enjoyed this discussion, thank you guys!

[@Grequierecafe]

I am appreciating this conversation. It could not take place on CNN or FOX. There’s a vigorous but survivable push and pull. Thank you.

[@penelope3926]

I’ve thought about what “the performance” is too... and I’ve realized that a lot of it is virtue signaling. It’s arrogant, self-serving moral projection dressed up as empathy and high intellectualism (I.e, “wokeness”). That’s why they don’t want to see logic and reason, because they’re using the “wokeness” as a mechanism for self-gain, self-aggrandizing. Their views are so bound up in their emotions and personal sense of self. To hurt their politics/views is to hurt their personality and sense of self.

[@NoMirr0r]

Beautifully put.

[@serengeti4027]

yeah, exactly. i have a half black friend of about 3 years who seems to not want to talk to me anymore because i'm not fully supportive of the narrative. she grew up with her family telling her that because she's black she's going to experience racism all over the place and stuff. it's essential to her identity, and me simply questioning whether the issue is bad as it seems has ruined our friendship. I totally feel the performance thing when talking to her too. I do definitely think there's a certain amount of empathy and compassion there too but yeah.

[@penelope3926]

Serengeti and that is the tragedy of such narratives 😞 I am sorry to hear about your friend.. it's sad to see the 'narratives' actually impact peoples' day to day lives in such negative ways. That, and the week-long riots (which have no objective, by the way) reveal the extent to which these narratives are no longer just benign cultural phenomena. But why?! why have we become so susceptible to the narratives? Ok here comes the rant lol... See, I think about this quite often and, IMO, it boils down to education and the media (news and social). Our schools are no longer teaching us how to be rigorous, critical thinkers for some reason- and that goes for university education as well. Subjects in the humanities- History, Literature etc- have been so dumbed down to the point where I think it's not even conducive to learning at all, not to mention being grossly intellectually dishonest. I am a PhD student in the humanities, so I've gone through 20 years of study. When I look back on all the ideological shit I've been taught in history, all the 'narratives' we were forced to regurgitate without a single shred of higher-order thinking. For example, I've not had even one history course taught about women that explained the opposing, yet completely legitimate side of feminist thought. All women in history were victims, powerless, secondary to men blah blah. This always sounded fishy to me, and after finding the brilliant Karen Straughn on KZbin, I finally found the other side of the narrative, which revealed that power (in a historical sense) was often attached to the duty of sacrifice (I.e, 'citizenship' and the right to vote was only given to men because they were conscripted, and thus, forced to fight for their countries). A ha! That means that NOT voting can be considered a privilege too insofar as your life is more valued. Why don't they teach that as another side? Putting the two sides together and forcing us to think critically about it would help mould us for when the narratives' impose themselves on us in real life, outside of school! Which brings me to my next point... the sensationalist media and social media. Whilst social media has brought us closer together, it's also turned us into consumerist robots who respond to 'shiny' images and fake, photoshopped pictures that use our clicks for profit. The real image doesn't matter. Much like how the sensationalist media puts a 'spin' on every news story to make it more palatable, dramatic and sellable. Take these riots for instance... everyone is in agreement that George Floyd was murdered. We are not divided on this issue. Heck, the 'system' itself- our laws and social mores- are conducive to this agreement, since all four cops have been arrested and the police station in question is under investigation under civil rights law. The structures we have put in place, which were years in the making, have made it such that racism/discrimination, when it happens, is punishable by law and cultural shunning. Yet the media wants to portray it as a deeply contentious issue that has driven us apart and caused division. Of course, that's the narrative! But in reality.. no one is divided! And this fuels the 'performance' from the dumbed-down, pharmaceutical-induced robots in the angry mob... searching for the meaning they've been starved of in today's infantilised, consumer-driven hell hole of a culture. Ok rant over 😅

[@penelope3926]

Jay See thanks 😊

[@NoMirr0r]

Penelope my main disconcertment stemmed from the reactivity to the whole thing. The fact that the globe can mobilize on an anecdote, turning into riots and multiplied human suffering scares me. It would not be difficult to weaponize this, as it’s so easy to predict, amplify, misconstrue and direct the aftermath. Anyways, do you do Twitter?

[@brandonkays3005]

honestly the two voices i care about most in this country, please never stop these discussions!

[@comicstanza2028]

I'm happy there's two voices that call out the naked emperor and point out where he's flabby. Even when they disagree, each side make the very specific, nuanced points that cut to the matter at hand.

[@richardstanley973]

Anytime I tune in, you both make my day. Why? You have the courage to grapple with the most taboo topic in our society: race. Race relations, such as they are, tap into the most powerful emotion in life: not love, nor hate, nor anger, but fear. I was a page in the House of Representatives in 1968: a white kid from a white NE suburb thrust into a group of white Southern boys. One, from Ripley, MS, where they closed schools due to "mah-ud", came home to our dorm visibly shaken. "She touched me," he kept telling me. The cashier in the House cafeteria was a young Black woman, who, when she handed him change, "touched" him. I realized then, the root of racism: blind fear. I was both fond of him, a sweet boy, but appalled by his sentiment that seemed to me utterly atavistic. Fear is what has allowed us to survive as a species, It also may be our undoing. That you run toward social danger, intellectually, challenges me to keep thinking instead of feeling. Thank you for being in my life.

[@CC-xs3jf]

You two are a breath of fresh air. Can’t wait for that book on the religion of anti-racism John!

[@lisamontez9401]

I really liked John's speech at 52:12 about not having any anxiety over something that could possibly be perceived as racist. I remember listening to a black guy on the radio having a civilized discussion about this very thing with a white friend. The white guy assumed the black guy would be upset if he knew that someone he was dealing with didn't like him because of the color of his skin. The black guy said 'no, I wouldn't care as long as he didn't discriminate against me. What do I care what he thinks? I'm probably not going to change his mind.'

[@Stamatos]

God damn, everyone needs to hear this conversation. Not just because this is great and full of insight but because this is a great WAY to talk about it.

[@CancelledPhilosopher]

I am sharing this with all of my uber-lefty friends. Glenn Loury's opinions on this issue are a little too right-leaning for my taste, but I totally agree with John McWhorter's views. Both of their thoughts are a hell of a lot more complex and nuanced than anything I've seen from far-righties and far lefties, and McWhorter's description of anti-racism as a religion sounds pretty accurate to me:

[@kreek22]

The religious instinct is nigh universal and highly fungible. The nature of this instinct means that those who seek to alter the religious focus of a group of people are undertaking the risk that they will end up with a still worse religion. Religious belief being irrational, it's also largely arbitrary in its choice of objects and commitments.

[@CancelledPhilosopher]

@@kreek22 I like and agree with most of what you said. Very well put. However, while I personally am an atheist, it's really not true that religion is irrational. I used to believe that, but I changed my mind when I learned from social psychologists and biologists like Jonathan Haidt and David Sloan Wilson that religion evolved through cultural evolution and group selection. It has served many valuable purposes for countless groups across human history. That's why people are still religious today. It's not arbitrary. It helps people live better lives. David Sloan Wilson has talked to Robert Wright on this channel at least a few times. I think that maybe Jonathan Haidt has too. But in relation to anti-racism as a religion, I think the problem is that people do not officially acknowledge that it is one because they don't believe it is. They're also militant about it. Plenty of religious people are aware thay they are religious, and are not militant about it. If anti-racists were actually tolerant of other people, they wouldn't be a problem in my opinion.

[@kreek22]

@@CancelledPhilosopher You make some good points, like the observation that religion is an adaptive system that may improve people's lives. It's certainly adaptive and evolved. Saying it improves lives begs the question: compared to what? Almost everyone lives according to some religion (even if they think they're atheists). So where is the areligious control group? Yet, though the evidence is dubious, I agree that religion improves lives in most cases historically. Wilson's group selection theory is an untenable idea that has superficial appeal. It strangely refuses to die, even though it does not work mathematically in human populations. Briefly: the genetic selection effects within human groups is almost always much stronger than the selection between human groups. Neither David Sloan Wilson nor E.O. Wilson understand the math involved. The religion of anti-racism cannot afford tolerance because it is fundamentally a universalist religion, like Islam or communism. In fact, I would argue that it's a mutation of traditional class-obsessed communism into a new biology-obsessed communism. I've even seen it referred to as "bioleninism."

[@stephj9378]

"What ' right leaning ' view did you not resonate to?

[@BenWeeks]

Peter boghossian james lindsay have many discussions about the religious aspect also. They're atheists. And it concerns them so much it bothers them more than most other forms. I'm christian and agree with them.

[@yoshisalaverry5502]

Professor Loury is so fucking smart.

[@patrickmac777]

The John McWhorter episodes are always amazing. Thanks Glenn and John.

[@Grequierecafe]

-it’s my second day with this conversation-my life of interruptions-Thank you again for this genuine, informed, and sustained exchange.

[@michaelfavata2720]

Can't wait for the book John!

[@AaronVriesman]

Saving these thoughts for future reference. John McWhorter writing on antiracism as a religion 1:42. Glenn Loury on crime being from "moral failure" instead of simply poverty 12:31. Glenn Loury "we need the cops" 19:50. The rioting is contemptible 21:11. Glenn Loury "the truth hardly matters" 35:15.

[@Telorchid]

‘Pesto & Chardonnay White people.’ Rofl. Mr. McWhorter might make a good novelist someday.

[@alexg4150]

Goes on to mention making pesto... Don't pretend you're not a pesto and wine person yourself, John.

[@masterllama321]

Alex G this fact only makes his characterization even better, imho

[@alexg4150]

@@masterllama321 Yeah it's funny. I think with many of his stereotypical "effete urbanite" tropes, he has drawn them straight from his own life lol.

[@ricknoah1704]

Brilliant, unflinching and adult conversation. It's easy to despair at the inability or unwillingness of the apparent majority of people to try and peel back the emotionally- charged skin and examine the mechanics at work. To even raise concern that the commonly accepted narrative may be reinforcing division along the exact lines that it purports to be deconstructing, or to express contempt for the short-sighted, instant gratification sought by so many who, reflexively accept and regurgitate- and how that implies a lack of genuine care about practical solutions, obviously means that I need to check my thinking I believe rationality will always win. Please keep having these conversations!

[@ahighhorseman]

Glenn Loury is one of my very favorite thinkers.

[@johndoe-qg7jp]

Let the other guy talk!

[@DavidWyatt]

Here is an instance of police brutality against a white male that correlates to the George Floyd case. Tony Timpa was a 32-year-old man in Dallas who died at the hands of police. According to the officers present, he did not attack, threaten, or resist officers. Mr. Timpa was actually the individual who called 911 and was committing no crime. The full 27+ minute bodycam footage was finally released after a court order and can be viewed on KZbin. As in every occupation, there are those in police departments across the country who are terrible at there job, even criminally so. Unfortunately, the consequences of an encounter with an unfit police officer can be much more disastrous for citizens because of the position of power the police have. Every accusation of police brutality should be independently investigated and, where indicated after investigation, prosecuted to the fullest extent. Without regard to the race of the victim.

[@sifridbassoon]

nothing demonstrates your commitment to speak truth to power than appropriating a 70" TV

[@gldndragon77]

Hello professors. Thank you for a wonderful and challenging conversation about race in America. I am a selfavowed "liberal" "progressive" AND conservative in my mind, without feeling the burden of dissonance that some would allege. You have voiced many of my thoughts on the subject as much as I disagree with your conclusions or characterizations on some other topics. I appreciate the intelligence, passion and MINIMAL broad dismissals of "the other side", tho there were some. I found the conversation engaging and relevant to my experience as a "black Male" in America of a certain perspective, having often been called 'contrarian' not in a complimentary way, by conservatives and liberals alike. I Look forward to more discussions and more challenges. -Jayson

[@damonhage7451]

Kind of sad statement on the culture when the question John asked amounts to asking for evidence, and people would roll their eyes.

[@mellowtron214]

Just out of curiosity, did you hear of the elderly white couple at the Delaware war cemetery who were murdered by a black man while they visited their sons grave? How is it that we know amaud and mike browns names, but this elderly couple is somehow just... a non-story.

[@TheEricmuck]

@@mellowtron214 I would be interested in the details of the delaware situation. To answer your question, Michael Brown was shot and killed by a police officer. In the Ahmaud Avery case, the District Attorney's office advised the police not to make any arrests.

[@AdamGeest]

@@mellowtron214 In 2018 the US was home to some 16 thousand manslaughter cases. That's quite a few names we don't know. I'm guessing that few of these cases involved manslaughter at the hands of our public servants -- namely, individuals empowered by the state to serve and protect but who in some instances abuse that power perversely.

[@CircusMonkeyMafia]

The replies I see most: "Dude...bruh... Come on bro... Like seriously? ...dude."

[@danletras]

@@mellowtron214 The black man in question is not a civil servant paid to PROTECT people.

[@redwall1521]

27:45 - the journalists and the editoralists are the problem here. I'm a recent college grad, and I see a lot of my leftist (leftist, not liberal) peers saying that these riots are justified in some form or another (because YOU didn't listen when CK took a knee, or when Ferguson riots occurred, or when Baltimore protested - when peaceful means didn't work, or when they say that MLK towards the end of his life actually started to believe in violent means to get civil rights, or that these rioters are a "small number of bad actors"). They try to justify it as much as possible. And you can guarantee most of these people are locked up safely in their suburban home, raised with good intentions. Most of these people are just virtue signalling.

[@jwc7215]

For a similar death to Floyd's look up the video of Tony Timpa.

[@12jmlnv7]

Thanks for that. I've spent the past few days researching these cases for this type of stuff happening to every race. While I managed to come across a few similar one, I had no idea of this one. This one was actually more disturbing because the cops laughed and joked around the entire time. This stuff don't get blown up because we are supposed to believe that it only happen to black people.

[@Bizagro]

Truly a sad story on so many levels

[@fabbeyonddadancer]

@@12jmlnv7 can you share some of the others you have found

[@12jmlnv7]

@@fabbeyonddadancer the names always slip me and I'm sure that has some to do to the fact that media don't cover them wall to wall. Look up roy Utah police shooting. They killed a man with his own gun. He was just at a gas station and someone called the police on him because they thought he was suspicious. Shot 16 times. No undictments.the cops names weren't even released.also look up new Mexico camper. He too was slain by cops. Once you look up a few, few more pop up.even when you type in names, the search results are spare compared to a black victim who gets pages on top of pages of race articles especially the more well known ones. I don't care how much people go in about race, it's not racial at all.

[@12jmlnv7]

@Jared Lowry wow I just saw it. The funny thing is that when I googled his name, nothing shown up for him when I typed his first and last name. It only show up when you put the middle name in with it. I keep stressing to my friends that these events aren't exclusive to black people and they brush it off even when I send these videos. I'm starting to believe that most people are idiots and only believe what they want to instead of facts. We need to keep these names going so that a compilation of white victims in exact or similar situations can go viral. There really need to be pushback on the "racist cop/racist system natrative."

[@david_6063]

Dr. Loury: With humor and love, yours is a voice of honesty, self-responsibility, self-determination and self-respect. In other words, a voice of morality. Simple as that. Carry on Sir!

[@derwinlowery]

but know nothing about government issued ghettos and poverty

[@grandmasterphill]

I wish i could like this like 10 times

[@UncleMichaelable]

Seriously.

[@nblhrt92]

Get these two on the JRE

[@prophazard]

I admire both of you for speaking carefully about what you believe, even when it is at risk of making you “unpopular” with some. But I don’t feel entirely at ease with your discussion . You wrestle first with the racial counterfactual (would the same apply if the now-dead person was white?), and in any given situation we don’t get to know. The facts we don’t know really cannot be used to justify either gunning down innocent people who went through an a building under construction, or a knee on the neck of a person who is fully under control. It is not possible to know for sure if Arbery would have been shot dead if he was white. But it is hard to handle this discussion without acknowledging that something wrong did happen to him, something undeserved. There is still no real justification for private citizens wielding a shotgun toward a person (of any pigment) who entered and left a construction site. With the police in Minneapolis - it is again a never-completely-answerable-in-the-particular thought question (would some police officers keep their knee on the neck of a white man until death under similar circumstances?). Clearly we don’t always get to know. But there is some fear and prejudice toward Blacks,. Even if some statistical association will justify your supposition (Blacks disproportionate to carry out some illegal act, somewhere, not impossible)... that association would not justify or make a police knee on the neck justifiable, would it? Law breaking in protest is not something to be excused. I am with you there. But the situation of awful lawbreaking by the “Omar” (as you call him) is partly a result of a complicated situation that confined Omar’s opportunities, including police who were empowered to act irresponsibly without any particular fear of recrimination. But police authorities with power and guns and backup / support of every kind should in fact be held to a high standard , right? And if they are not held to a high standard, isn’t it inevitable that the situation will blow up periodically?

[@crackcrock]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZSQdpKfbbZofZI well we kinda know what would happen...

[@SalimonuDavid]

I think I may agree with you that Glenn was quick to condemn "Omar" despite his ignorance. I think Glenn may be underestimating the grip ignorance has on individuals; knowledge is power, and living in a culture that doesn't promote its acquisition is unfavorable. I also agree that the George Floyd situation was terrible. I find it hard to believe that Floyd's race did not play a role here, and I believe that we should be attempting to educate police officers so that they are aware of their biases so that they can navigate these situations with better judgement. I think the nature of this conversation makes it difficult to sincerely express the entirety of the argument; frankly, I also feel strongly about the fact that our society is increasingly more likely to racialize every issue, and I think hearing this constantly makes Glenn, in particular, more likely to voice his contrarian opinions while leaving the views he shares with this crowd less emphasized. It's good to bring up these points, though, and I'm glad you have.

[@prophazard]

David Salimonu - you are getting at so much with so few words. I certainly resonate with how you put your entire comment.

[@macummings7818]

@@SalimonuDavid Appreciate your point and the other poster here Yet it seems the racial counterfactual is indeed available - in the masses of white arrests that they point to. We only have to look at the arrest treatment of these masses of whites to track the baseline. Duh. In addition, their commitment to decoupling personhood from the racial narratives creates a bit of the same emotional fervor they seem to be diagnosing in the other side, whereby here's mr Loury downplaying the aggressive anti-voting fvckery in Atlanta - really? And instead talking impassionedly about Blacks having skin in the game of a broken power system. Come on gentlemen.

[@ChristopherARamsey]

Hour 5 of The Glenn & John Show 🤙🏽 Can’t get enough!

[@kaceyrodriguez3053]

So glad some of these incidents are increasingly caught on camera...this goes for those not a product of racism too, like merely bad police training. Very dystopian times economically, socially, every which way

[@gabriel-uc1uz]

I agree, these are trying times things will get alot worse before they get better

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

Racism is a factor as well.

[@kaceyrodriguez3053]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn Who said otherwise?

[@mellowtron214]

What makes you say racism is a factor? Is sexism a factor? Is class? Is age? And is all of this shaped by the fact that the media doesn’t seem to care about the majority of police shootings, the majority of murders, the majority of interracial murders, and the majority of those who kill cops when all of this is caught on film? Seems they ignore the mountain of blacks killing everything and everyone, cops killing whites, blacks killing whites, all so that they can show us the mole hill that is the 10 or so cases a year (in a country of over 1/3 of 1,000,000,000 people) where blacks are the victims. Ignoring the mountain where blacks are the victimizers or whites are the victims. Seems... purposeful.

[@kaceyrodriguez3053]

@@mellowtron214 What makes you think Trump has a big ego (I'm assuming we can all grant that)? If the standard for making mental attributions is that strict, then I could technically never really be able to call Trump narcissistic since any given action or statement is compatible with him having said so without a big ego. After all, like you said, how do you know it's a factor with certainty? This is just not how mental attributions work as a matter of psychology

[@Purple_911]

I love how they listen to eachother. You can see them really soaking up every word without cutting in. Its a treat to observe such a special interaction.

[@keitharchie8120]

I’d love to hear McWhorters consideration of Omars morality in relation to the rights of the victims of his crimes.

[@troyingersoll6994]

Thank you! There was so much for me to process in this video that I had to watch it a few times. So many thoughtful and constructive views to share with my multitude of mixed race friends and family. Being an educator in diverse Los Angeles for decades, I was happy to hear two logical men discuss the racial issues. Glenn, you hit the nail on the head at the 35 minute mark. Yes, there is and will always be racism in the world. I refuse to spoon feed my biracial children and minority students poison to make a point on racism. Skin color will NEVER be a contributing factor in the success of my students and children. Everyone I have ever met, regardless of race, has a racism story to share. Healthy and productive people of all races refuse to be defined or hindered by sporadic acts of hatred.

[@Vic2point0]

Atheism-is-Unstoppable brought me here.

[@fluentinshittalk916]

Me too. Devon should be richer than damn Markiplier. This world's truly unjust

[@vgman94]

Fluentinshittalk That’s the world we live in. But I hope this doesn’t hold forever. The paradigm needs to change.

[@canopeaz]

He is bigoted against me. I had to bring myself here. Thanks for nothing Devon Tracey.

[@errolalexander1124]

Loved the show the only problem id one qas too young to e active in the civil right movemen of the sixties and the other waz old enough but mDe argume ts when he ahould had marching...John was wrong about Malcom X

[@fluentinshittalk916]

@@errolalexander1124 youre speaking jibberish.

[@MS-eg6nc]

Glenn Loury is brilliant!!!

[@JamesScottGuitar]

Thank you so much for this discussion. I'm getting more and more concerned that these types of discussions are going to become more and more difficult to have as critical thinking leaves the discussions being had.

[@zerobyte802]

54:28 - when John starts getting visibly angry at the idea, I almost cried. These men hate this ideology so much - they’re so offended by it on so many levels. It felt like a religious experience to me. Godspeed to the both of you!

[@user-pc2tu6pr9z]

A very interesting and balanced conversation. Why isn't discord like this in the mainstream media?

[@Navesblue]

Reason doesn’t sell. It’s not outrageous enough to garner attention.

[@swesleyc7]

It's A) not sensational enough and B) does not fit the background narrative the ultra leftist mainstream media *wants* to portray. They want to tell you what to think, not offer how to think.

[@Highintensityhealth]

I’m with you!

[@hmwreckerhealthyheartiii8945]

In the immortal words of a character played by jack nicolson ... Because they (the media and the their sheeple) can't handle the truth

[@brianjoyce9742]

It plays badly to proven clicks of rage. New algorithms will cost in lost revenue

[@99Jeep2008]

Really enjoyed the discussion! Paul Vanderklay's channel recommended both of you.

[@buybuydandavis]

In Cooper vs. Cooper, *he* reported that he said: ME: Look, if you’re going to do what you want, I’m going to do what I want, but you’re not going to like it. That's kinda sorta a threat, and *of course* a #Karen is going to take it as such and immediately appeal to authorities to protect her. He is kind of a Karen too, playing Park Leash Monitor. I don't see good guys in this story, just two 2 Karens doing what Karens do.

[@katiegoetz]

Another thing the two Coopers have in common, in my estimation: imputing the worst possible motive to the other

[@buybuydandavis]

@@katiegoetz Karens gonna Karen.

[@heatherduncan4945]

Yes both of their inner Karen got loose

[@rocco1267]

haha exactly

[@patrickgomes15]

You're wrong. That is not a sorta kinda threat. It's a very real threat when you consider the context that Cooper himself adds [safe as he is behind his anti-racism shield] : he reached into his pocket and then called out to her dog, "Come here, Puppy". That is the precise moment when Ms Cooper freaked out.

[@discfunctional1]

Enjoyed the banter and thoughtful insight. Sent by AIU who recommended. Subscribed!

[@HO-zi5qe]

The defense John is running leading up to the 30 minute mark seems extremely dicey to me. Wouldn’t the same argument that ignorance excuses behavior to some degree (‘yes he deserves censure ... but I can’t frown when I see that footage of people burning down the Target’) also apply to ignorant racists too? Like: yes, Deep South Sammy deserves censure for lighting a cross in the yard of a black family, but he grew up in a culture where all he heard his whole life was that black people are evil, so I can’t call it a moral failing and frown over the footage of the cross burning. Seems to me that’s dangerous territory to defend.

[@Bobby3682]

I can relate heavily to it. I am not black, I'm a white man. I was raised in poverty, and at a young age was surrounded entirely by poor kids. My dad stepped out, and my mom worked all hours to keep everyone fed, so I effectively raised myself. My young life was spent stealing, damaging property, and other stupid petty crimes that the kids I was around did for fun. One day, my mom decided she was tired of my 'baggy saggy' attitude, and moved me from the 'poor' school to the 'rich' school. I hated it, and I hated everyone I went to school with. I didn't fit in for a long time, and I think that if I had black skin, I would have used that as the reason why I could never have fit in, and probably wouldn't have tried. Instead, I eventually met a few kids I became friends with. I watched them interact with loving parents, and be generous and playful in a non-destructive way. These were strange and foreign, but I eventually longed for a life like that.Thank God for that exposure. Because of this, I eventually became a chemical engineer. Perception is reality. Somehow, black populations have to see a successful life and believe they can attain it in order to do so. It happens too infrequently, and there are pressures on all side to avoid it. My only critique is that through the dialogue here, they are no closer to an answer. I wish I knew what it was.

[@wowomah6194]

Well he's not arguing that it isn't wrong, he's rather arguing that is is more of a "moral failure to start" rather than a "moral failure" in that he's arguing a lot of young black men in impoverished neighborhoods have such bad role models and fewer father figures to the point that they never get the chance. He was just saying he couldn't necessarily call it evil in the same way that Glenn wants to.

[@Phillyprnc]

I thought the same exact thing. In both cases, if we are going to say that their limited upbringing, experience, etc is mitigating... shouldn't we then look to the culture that didn't teach them, if not in the house, than in the community, through the prevailing stories, broader culture, the difference between right and wrong. I‘m not religious at all, but I can see and argument to be made that things were less likely to happen when people went to church together and the culture celebrated traits in the characters of their shared stories that were decent, moral, admirable, etc. - I don‘t know. Just hurting tonight. Very confused. - Thanks for this amazing conversation.

[@GoSuMonSteR]

@@Bobby3682 Well, having the black skin probably would have added to you not being able to fit in. It definitely is a factor.

[@tacitus3591]

Honestly, just knowing that this conversation occurred has taken a huge burden off my shoulder. I am so, so happy to see this sane conversation happening between two normal people. The Internet has absolutely warped my sense of reality to the point that I wonder if I’m not completely insane