Bob Katz about the "loudness war" part 1

This is part 1 of Bob Katz talking about the "loudenss war" at AES '09

[@mattdistad]

Loudness is one hell of a drug.

[@koepketube]

"It's physchoacoustically true"

[@LiquidChem]

@iannowacki youre absolutely right, most people commenting here dont know what theyre talking about! but yes, anything over 0dB des not exist! there is no such thing! raising over that point only deletes the information that would have ended up above 0dB. people can test this out- record a sound at a low input value, around -6dB. now amplify 10 decibels, and do that ten times. now tell me if you still recognize the audio.

[@whatwhatwhaaaaat]

We metalheads have volume knobs too.

[@constitutionfst]

How many remember the "Mind Blower" 6"X9" amplified automobile speakers of the late 60's/early 70's? 25 watts at 25% distortion and we teenagers thought they sounded awesome!

[@artrock101]

Like everything in the Universe, it's all about finding the Happy Medium. Punchy enough to be exciting, but not crushed to where you lose all dynamics.

[@stephanevermette145]

A good example of "less is more".

[@KasperSOlesen]

I remember watching Blizzcon last year, and the sound guys gave the advice to a sound maker to be, that one of the most important pieces of advice to make good sounds is to record it at as low a volume as possible, then you can put it anywhere and it will sound good. I think it can be compared to photos on smart phones. Samsung has turned up its colors to make the screen brighter, but at the same time they are less natural and it makes the photos the phone takes a bit obscure sometimes.

[@DangerRifai]

As Bob Katz says; 'Volume is an abstract word', but if I can assume what you mean by volume is perceived loudness, then 'they' (mastering engineers) level it using a combination of loudness meters, compression, equalisation and limiting. DJs would level it using the 'cue' function on the mixer, their headphones, the gain control and the meters on the mixer. ...but mostly with their ears.

[@jp0005jp]

music indeed needs to breathe, now it is suffocating :S

[@LawrenceCarroll1234]

I remember Julian Hirsch mentioning back in the "old days" over and over how important it was to make sure when having hosting a speaker comparison that the actual decibel level remain exactly the same. The slightest increase almost invariably resulted in said audience choosing the "louder" speakers as "better." But remember that upon the advent of even the 1st CDs there already was a huge NEGATIVE reaction by Vinyl lovers to digital -& this is prior to the db levels increasing!

[@DangerRifai]

I make techno too and I work as a lighting and sound technician in a club. Just keep doing what you're doing. When a DJ mixes your tunes in, he/she can always use the gain to match levels - that's what that control is there for. So don't worry. If and when you get a release, you'll have it mastered properly anyway, and the loudness will be determined by the mastering engineer. These people usually have good ears and will not overcompress your music.

[@synapticflow]

I'm so discouraged. I am a techno musician who like dynamic range and refuses to boost his music to 0db. I am told by my peers that I will be a failure because I don't go for max volume, regardless of the fact that my music is pretty good.

[@CostonFrijoles]

droppin knowledge BOMBS

[@moxotengu]

leave the final volume to the listener / DJ... if you concentrate on dynamic range and emotional content you'll come good!

[@h0ll0wm9n]

Does any one have links to his PowerPoint (or whatever) that he's looking at off-screen?

[@themooch1639]

That shirt is loud Take no prisoners in the loudness wars

[@davidyoung4277]

Would this "Loudness War" end up in two tracks of White Noise?

[@TimpBizkit]

My take on loudness is background music doesn't have as good sound quality because of the noise floor, plus the bass sounds a bit faint. When it gets too loud and parts make my ears ache, I've passed optimum sound quality.

[@keltik0420]

@synapticflow Right there with ya, absolutely despise the loudness war

[@ZombieLincoln666]

The problem is that when people are producing music they forgot that they can increase the volume.

[@DavidTimovski]

Having high peaks doesn't mean it's too loud. The center of attention here is dynamic range.

[@Icomposeme]

You could limit the track to the point where it peaks at -.3, but don't increase the gain anymore so that the dynamic range is pretty much preserved.

[@chaseustoo]

I've just started mastering, and people have told me the same thing. I refuse to do that. Last time I checked, their is normally a volume control within reach.

[@SilkEclipse]

So I don't need to have my songs Compressed like hell?... Or should I use compression at all?

[@jp0005jp]

thanks :)

[@peladoclaus]

re genio.. this guy is a fucking genius

[@DTM-Books]

@synapticflow Every successful artist faced resistance and criticism by their peers. The truth is that nobody has a monopoly on the truth. Trust your own instincts, trust your gut. Music needs to be dynamic, not crushed into a cube. And there will be a backlash, sooner or later. What you need to do is A) continue to create music for Maximum Dynamics, and B) advocate for dynamics as much as possible. Build your name as the champion of "Maximum Dynamics." Yeah, go with that meme, my friend.

[@LiquidChem]

how so? that happens to me all the time! especially with bass parts, then trying to get the drums louder, then the synth needs to come up, and before you know it, all the levels are the same in relation to each other, only at a higher gain now... get it?

[@peladoclaus]

experience is 90% smarter than raw vibe.. need to consume more.

[@SilkEclipse]

How do they level songs that are different volume?

[@peladoclaus]

@synapticflow.. sounds like you are already doing what he is saying works.

[@DangerRifai]

I tend to have my band's music hovering around -7dB on the loudness meter, for the most part. That, to some people is still too loud, but it's nowhere near some of the CDs I own, which peak around -4dB and beyond. Like I say, it's a compromise. I retain enough dynamic range in my opinion, and that loss of punch with really heavy limiting can be made up for with harsher EQing (listen to the drums on Bloodmeat by Protest The Hero, for example) but I prefer to stay away from that.

[@MixMastaCopyCat]

Is it bad to gain the mix just until the highest peaks are just barely touching the limiting threshold? I don't think that'd be unhealthy :U It wouldn't brickwall anything

[@LiquidChem]

@danisokra dude its just a presentaion, hes a speaker, it isnt hollywood. this isnt michael bay. its just information and the quality is fine for that

[@thereinsout]

which lecture is this and where is the conference held?

[@DangerRifai]

You don't have to, no. It should have a reasonable loudness level, but it should still have dynamic range i.e. loud and quiet [not all loud all the time - that's how your drum hits end up sounding like wet fish], and a lot of the modern day mastering engineer's job is to find the perfect compromise. You should use moderate compression on individual instruments to even out the dynamics, but there are no hard and fast rules and each case is different.

[@iamtherealrenedescartes]

5:33 "How many of you know that an EQ boost has more effect on the partial loudness than an EQ dip?" - What is meant by "partial loudness" here?

[@ThePhatnuss]

I think he means the ability to recognise change is greater when increased rather than decreased

[@iamtherealrenedescartes]

ThePhatnuss I gathered that. But the phrase "partial loudness" is confusing me.

[@ThePhatnuss]

Oh right, my bad. I believe its the perceived sound of one sound against other sounds. So for example you wear heaphones and can hear external noise on top of whats played through the headphones, what you can hear despite the background is partial loudness. Or sumin like that

[@iamtherealrenedescartes]

ᏳᏫᏜᏡᎦᏈᏜᏫᏳ I think I did at the time. Does this mean that you loose less loudness making a 3dB cut than you gain doing a 3dB boost? So basically making a cut is less perceivable than making a boost.

[@marcusphotina]

I should say I am an amateur in this stuff, but... All these compressors people are throwing in on every track to "get it to fit".. I never liked that. They EQ and compress the hell out of every sound to get them to fit instead of finding a sound to begin with that fits in the mix without having ot use to much processing. That is when it starts to sound more dynamic and natural. That is what I think anyway.

[@7blueblood]

oh metalheads are gonna be pissed

[@nickpelkey]

I buy vinyl. unfortunately i don't have a turntable in my car. there i use tapes. cds are good for skipping ahead... and skipping when i go over a train track.

[@ZombieLincoln666]

I mean that the people who produce music forget that making their music louder is pointless because the listener can easily turn it up.

[@realcucus]

please someone call skrilex !

[@Zickcermacity]

It's very simple: As many people as possible must STOP buying CDs and mp3s! Pinch the record companies where it counts - their purses! Why do you think "free" mp3 download sites exist? Because uncompressed original CD tracks can still be found there! And the big labels just don't get it, with their lifeless "remasters".

[@davidboy777]

@cristisas2003 I think so too :)

[@MintSoundsNZ]

Keep at it bro. The world needs more people refusing to be "The Loudest In Town". I think the idea that you need to be loud to be competitive in the music industry is a misconception. I read some somewhere that they tested a group of people with music that was at 'loudness war' levels, with one that had more dynamic range, and the group said the latter sounded better! Check out Ian Shepherd's Production Advice website.

[@MandeepGadgetBoy]

this guys a DON !!!

[@AeonFlexMusic]

@worldwideMCM agreed, that is why I am here. However your statement can be easily misinterpreted. :3

[@jjovereats]

make the mixes louder UNTIL they sound like A) they will compete and B) they have good D/R.

[@iannowacki]

@synapticflow Totally respect your opinion however 0dB is the absolute peak, the track wouldn't be there all the way through. Think when your at a club and the techno is banging at it's peak, would you not feel let down if the DJ brought in a track and it was noticeably quieter than the last? The real skill is having your peak volume at 0dB (or even momentarily stretching that boundary) but still retaining dynamic range. I don't mean to preach sorry! (I'm pretty rubbish at mixing/engineering)

[@bucktoofus]

The point he tries to make at 4:20 is incorrect. Turning up all your faders isn't the same thing.

[@nnnnico]

im facepalming hard right now

[@thebeatinventor]

Bob is right "loudness" is a drug, Look what it did to him.....................a little stiff now, no but he is a genius.

[@Alwaysbaggyjeans]

@synapticflow you should do whatever you like. What's cool today won't be cool tomorrow. I grew up listening to house, acid house, techno, progressive house, etc, I stopped going to clubs and listening to dance music when all this overcompressed crap tooke over

[@five5x]

The loudness war is such bs. Is there any point to it anymore when albums sales have dropped every year since 2004 or earlier I believe. If it's not selling more albums each year then what is the point to it all. Reality is it just pisses people off who notice the clipping and compression and makes me want to buy less cd's.

[@MarcusGramm]

dynamics is way better than loud

[@pr1m4t3]

Im not pissed I actually agree ehehh

[@VossaBygde]

lol same

[@gmjones2001]

When you say 'they' I think you mean the customer NOT the manufacturer. Thumbs up is from me (if I understand your ambiguous comment).

[@SPAZZOID100]

I appreciate the topic, but an audio engineer should have know how to better record his voice for this video presentation!!

[@DavidTimovski]

Yet you deleted your comment. What was it? Old hippie or something? The dude in the video knows what he's talking about.

[@thereinsout]

louder always sounds better, there is no argument it's an evolutionary reaction if u r mixing songs for a dance demographic, u need to be mixing at 0

[@AgentHomer]

it's the AES and the sound is awful :-((((

[@AeonFlexMusic]

@worldwideMCM how can you watch a video like this and say something so ignorant? he's talking about volume and loudness and you're talking about FL Studio? Lol pay attention. Oh and you'd cry if you knew how many big name producers use FL Studio

[@cristisas2003]

@worldwideMCM FRUITY LOOPS IS NOT THE BEST THINK EVER , BUT IF YOU KNOW IT ENOUHT , IT GET'S THE JOB DONE :)