Bonsaify | Styling Decisions & the Value of a Bonsai

Рет қаралды 7,895

Күн бұрын

Eric ponders the question of how styling decisions impact the value of a bonsai as he examines and works on a 20-30 year old Juniper he previously used as a mother plant.
00:00:30 Eric purchased the plant from a nursery along with about 30 others, and while there's a lot of character, there are also a lot of problems. The plant has 4 trunks and none are particularly interesting.
00:01:39 Is the price an accurate reflection of the quality of material?
00:03:00 Eric doesn't believe he has a lot to lose by making some big changes to the material, which he believes could become a shohin. He plans to remove large pieces of wood in favor of creating a much smaller composition, and wonders whether or not it will make a better plant.
00:04:16 Let's see what Eric does. First he scrapes soil out from around the base to make sure he has a complete view of the wood at the base of the tree.
00:05:33 Cutting, stripping
00:06:31 360 degree view after reduction while Eric explains his decisions.
00:08:32 Returning to the original question - do you think this plant is more valuable now than it was before? Let us know in the comments below!
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Пікірлер: 62

@jonathanaristone2468 Жыл бұрын

The potential and value are higher. Lets see where you take it Eric !

@wreagin1 2 жыл бұрын

This confirms my bias that all trees look best as the smallest possible tree. I think it's certainly more valuable as a smaller tree despite being the same material. Good material for larger trees is much easier to find than for smaller trees. I think this is primarily a function of bravery and preciousness. Most people want to maintain their trees and refine them, to make them more full, and large, and impressive. It takes a bit of a weirdo to develop and or grow a tree and only see the first three to five inches as the useful parts of the tree. Despite this being one of the best ways to develop shohin trees. I just don't think there are that many people who are looking for the Shohin tree inside of a piece of raw material. Seeing the smallest tree is exactly how my brain works, which explains why I love your content and why you're the first resource I give to new people in the hobby. Great work Eric, thanks for showing us what can be done with difficult material.

@SuperPeleke 2 жыл бұрын

You nailed a fundamental principle that I think (at least here in USA) most people don't correctly understand. You can grow a tree into a bigger bonsai or reduce a tree into a bonsai. Most people focus on growing trees into a bonsai but in reality I find it more useful to reduce trees into the smallest possible size that would exemplify the bonsai format.

@DarthMasiah Жыл бұрын

yep, I'm one of those weirdos.

@horanbenjamin Жыл бұрын

Definitely improved it and some nice carving on the dead wood would really take this to another level again

@jang.1185 Жыл бұрын

Well, now it looks really great :)

@themichaellerner 2 жыл бұрын

It is definitely more interesting and more attractive than before. I feel you have increased its value by eliminating the distractions and focussing the viewer's eye on its core attributes. Bravo!

@matshagstrom9839 2 жыл бұрын

The value of bonsai is a fascinating topic. It’s remarkable how much people think their plants are worth because they are “old” or styled, or even have bad form like extremely uneven root distribution. As you climb the ladder of knowledge sellers dial in prices much more accurately based on objective criteria similar to what bonsai judges do. Buying from the best growers is probably a good bet regardless of quality level or desirability. I also see emotional responses in purchase behavior. Bonsai Mirai had a recent release of finished trees that sold for very high priced. Ryan Neil has done an amazing job at presenting himself, his Knowledge, his vision and his trees on an very high emotional level. While the trees sold were excellent in quality pots etc, I question if the same trees sold by someone will less pizazz would fetch even a fraction of what the Mirai trees sold for. Most of the trees which all hovered in the thousands of dollars sold within minutes of the release. I’ve seen collecting behavior in many areas like fine wine, art, rare cars etc. Bonsai are the most unique in that the creator has generally far less influence on price but this will change as described above. A bottle of Romanee Conti can fetch $50,000 and will always be worth at least $500 regardless of quality. The proper aging of wine is important in its development as is maintaining a vintage car but nothing compared to what it takes to keep valuable bonsai at peak levels over long periods of time. It would be fun to see a showdown of what the handful of true bonsai masters in North America could do with the same tree. Unfortunately it may be hard to get large numbers of similar trees in mediocre condition. Reducing “bad” trees seems like a pretty solid strategy and seems more likely to result in success than expanding on what is not working. Keep us updated on this ugly duckling which I’m sure will soon enough become a gracious swan. Best, Mats

@wabisabi3619 2 жыл бұрын

You are right but a Ryan Neil tree has pedigree/provenance. If I lived in the US and had the money to spare, I would pay a lot for a Ryan Neil tree…

@richarddorfman5170 Жыл бұрын

I'm a member/subscriber of Bonsai Mirai. Have been since Ryan began producing educational videos. Wonderful service. Ryan is a unique teacher and part of a select group of creative bonsai artists I consider the very best I've come across in 30+ years growing trees. So is Eric. Are Ryan's trees worth the price tag? Probably not, though many would beg to differ. Remember, that trees continue to evolve in their lifecycle. In the hands of others, I suspect a majority of Ryan's trees depreciate in value over time. As an aside, I find Mirai's process for selling Ryan's trees about as antithetical to the philosophy he espouses as one can conceive. That includes no advance viewing of trees in the annual online sale. Even more egregious is the obscenely limited time a buyer is afforded to make a purchase decision (less than 30 seconds based up a photo or two). I don't get it, have written to express my disappointment, but my comments have fallen on deaf ears. Would Ryan purchase a tree costing $1,000+ based upon a 15 second look at a photo when he spends an hour or more considering a piece of nursery stock before stepping in? We all know the answer. And it confirms for me the idea that the value of any bonsai tree rests solely in the eye of the beholder.

@Thousand.cranes.bonsai 5 ай бұрын

Its true, the Mirai brand is very trendy which is why he can sell out immediately despite those high prices. Side note- ive got a ton of similar trees in mediocre condition that id love to see be in that showdown with all the pros! 😆

@bulebonsaibatam1758 2 жыл бұрын

Much better now than before.

@paulholtzen7007 2 жыл бұрын

Saw the shohin at the beginning. I'd reduce even more though.

@thomasmajarov3286 2 жыл бұрын

There is an argument to be made that the value was in the material at all times, but it takes an artist to recognize it in its unrefined state.

@GertsBonsaiLog 2 жыл бұрын

I think it's more valuable now. Sometimes if you give a tree a roadmap, others will see the value (and future) in it more so than they would have seen in the blank canvas.

@richarddorfman5170 Жыл бұрын

Marked improvement, Eric; hard to argue otherwise. You have exceptional vision of what can be. However, this tree is still pre-bonsai material, so the question "Is it worth $250 ?" is purely subjective. "What's the value of this tree" and "what will people pay for it" are distinctly separate questions. A tree's value rests solely in the eye of the beholder. What people will pay for it (assuming they have decided they want it) is often defined by one's financial situation. Someone earning $60,000/year might see the $250 price in a very different light than someone earning $300,000 per year. But it only takes one person willing to pay $250 to define 'what it's worth'; no consensus needed. You therefore have your answer in the comments below. Unfortunately, many bonsai enthusiasts on limited budgets are being squeezed out of the market for quality trees because those with the means often pay over the odds simply to get what they want...which drives prices higher. I know...that's life and I accept it.

@murphyorama 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely an improvement. I would say the work increased the value of the tree.

@TonysBonsai 2 жыл бұрын

Nice video and a really interesting question. In my mind, the tree increased in value. Perhaps not by a huge amount, but the time you spent changing it and applying your knowledge and expertise to this tree gave it a new direction. Someone with less experience could now easily see a future style for this and would be more likely to purchase it therefore its value has gone up.

@sagebonsai 2 жыл бұрын

A Pawn Stars moment "best I can do is 30 bucks!" Later on "I really don't know how much this is worth, but I got a guy!" Turns out I'm able to sell it for a whopping $250. Thanks Eric, this turned out really amazing always look forward to seeing your videos.

@wabisabi3619 2 жыл бұрын

Haha 😂

@Serentropic 2 жыл бұрын

So I think the topic of bonsai pricing is interesting and involves a lot of guesswork for a hobby this small. The demand is highly elastic, since nobody really *needs* bonsai in the way they need food or medicine, and supply is difficult to rapidly scale up. There are qualities most people agree on for pricing trees and a little bit of comparison between successful sellers shows some recurring trends ... but I also don't think the audience for bonsai is quite homogenous. There's sub-markets that go beyond "taste" I think. For example, I'm young and poor ... I have a lot more time to spend on trees than I have money to buy them. So for me the most valuable trees are ones with high potential and few flaws. Refinement and styling don't matter in my purchasing decisions because that's the part I have time to do myself. The most bang for my buck is usually going to be youngish trees from bonsai field growers. But I also know a lot of experienced bonsai folk who don't want to spend 10 years waiting for a tree to be ready for styling. They will accept some flaws for a more refined tree that they can enjoy now. Those same individuals will recognize and appreciate the craft that goes into a well styled and refined piece. So even if the tree has limited potential for future improvement, I would wager you'd have people happy to pay for the age of the tree and the artistry you've added to it. Then mallsai seem like a different market altogether. With any activity this niche I think there's always going to be a huge price spectrum. Sometimes it's just the right buyer landing in front of the right tree! That's a long way of saying I think you're totally justified selling this tree for $250 or more.

@Thousand.cranes.bonsai 5 ай бұрын

That was well said. Im a bonsai field grower, shipping my trees all over the country; pricing them is the hardest thing in this whole business. Thats why i love auctions, it gives a sense of what folk are willing to pay for what kind of material. Thats been super helpful.

@wabisabi3619 2 жыл бұрын

If it were my tree, I think I would keep just one trunk. Perhaps the largest one, but I couldn’t be certain from the video, and go nuts on the carving. The aim would be to attempt to tell an ancient tale of survival, trunks that have grown and died through the ages. Valuing bonsai is so hard, especially if you’re selling. The amount of time put into creating a bonsai should theoretically mean they are worth so much but it does come down to quality and artistic merit of sorts. Ultimately it’s what people are willing to pay. Certain trees can absolutely grab people and create a must have desire so they will pay a lot but in most circumstances it’s such a fine line. And of course it’s such a niche thing. Great video Eric, thank you

@houghtonbonsai 2 жыл бұрын

Great improvement in this tree well done, it definitely needed it 😀

@nillysbonsai9636 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely looked a lot better by the end! Your first explanation of the tree made me wonder why you brought it :D thanks for sharing

@Dulur-Bonsai 2 жыл бұрын

the handling of a very extraordinary bonsai tree

@michelangelobonsai 2 жыл бұрын

it was a material that could be worked in many ways. Even left high, a good result could have been obtained with the right precautions, but you have taken it to the extreme and given it a more evil, more conical character, a tree that will certainly be very powerful even if small. Good boy🤙🤙

@wabisabi3619 2 жыл бұрын

I think it’s worth more after what you have done. And that makes sense as you applied your time to making it so, not just how long it took you to do that work, but the years of effort learning the craft. You created something much more desirable. As it is, I think that would fetch at least 4-500 Australian dollars here. So 250-350 USD would be fair asking price.

@jiijino_bonsai_ch 2 жыл бұрын

素晴らしい👏👏👏

@darkseas3846 Жыл бұрын

I personally would say the work increased the value. I have the same question with a couple of my trees I’m not sure what they are worth or if I had to replace one what sort of price range I’d be looking at for something of the same quality and size

@veganpullingpower6 Жыл бұрын

It's better more compact I like it. and would say yes it added value. Not sure about the large jin maybe bring it down .to show more folegde .unless it's going to grow above it .cool 👍

@bonsai_life_style 2 жыл бұрын

Looking better much better.

@Benw3790 Жыл бұрын

Idk if it would ACTUALLY be worth more money, than what you had originally asked.. BUT it would definitely have an easier time selling. Short, stout powerful trunk with the possibility of "tenjin" just looking at the last frame over the video, it looks like a huge old anciet tree, in miniature already. Very natural lookin shohin or slightly above shohin. I think you did a great job getting it in the right direction!

@danieldalton8125 2 жыл бұрын

Yes more valuable now. Before it looked like semi worked raw material. It now looks like being on the way to a bonsai design. I guess though I would have paid the 250 to do the work myself as I saw the same design. (slightly self congratulatory) 🙃 not that I would have done it better or as well but it would have been fun. As this vid was to watch. Cheers!

@vectispete9415 2 жыл бұрын

Part of the issue for me (and as with all things Bonsai) it is a personal view. The tree species is significant in its value. For me personally Juniper is inherently dull tree.

@bonsai_life_style 2 жыл бұрын

I make most small tree's so I think price go up but I find that people want to spend money mostly on big tree's so. Or if they don't have much then they go; ( and how much is that smaller one ? ) So it is up to buyer too.

@jameslangschied7900 2 ай бұрын

Selling a bonsai tree and selling other types of artwork raises some important questions. A "pretty" painting by an unknown artist will bring in a relatively low price. A truly beautiful painting exhibiting great skill, but still by an unknown artist, will bring in much more money and may help to raise the artist's stature. But bonsai is different. You really can't change a painting or marble sculpture, but you can change a mediocre bonsai into a beautiful bonsai and raise its value significantly. In this example, Eric has pointed out the flaws of the juniper and then proceeded to improve the tree via his artistic expression and vision. With a bit more refined work, I would value the tree at at least double the purchase price, probably triple the price.

@davidreid622 2 жыл бұрын

I really liked the tree as it was but have to admit, you did improve it.

@mikec3820 2 жыл бұрын

i have been into bonsai just about 5 years now. also im a 20+year glass artist (lampworking boro/pyrex) pricing my glass art and my trees are equally hard. the material it self isnt really valuable imo its your time,effort and energy you put into the piece/plant. plus what the market for your area is like. plus what the consumers willing to pay. not easy at all to price for sure. "is it worth 250$ now" to the right person in the right market definitely. at a bonsai whole saler or nursery maybe not. thats another good question. what are other bonsai nurseries in your area (or online if none are in your area)charging for similar material?

@timothyvanheerden8105 2 жыл бұрын

Personally i would rather buy the smaller version. It's a big improvement.

@eeeealmo 2 жыл бұрын

Huge improvement. Would gladly pay $250. Could drive up from San Jose today! 😎

@official_Grant Жыл бұрын

Supply & demand. The market determines the value. Sure, some slick marketing or a back-story can increase interest. In terms of deign, you will be happy taking more risks with something that doesn't have a huge existing value, than you would / could with something already worth $1,000.

@OjaiBonsai 2 жыл бұрын

Shohin for sure. The 3 big trunks are to straight. Cool final product

@stuartrogers9296 2 жыл бұрын

i would love to have that tree

@stuartrogers9296 2 жыл бұрын

not after the work though

@purplegurl76 Жыл бұрын

There's a difference between value and worth. It's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Its value comes from the time that's been put into it x your knowledge, experience and expertise x the trees' beauty at that specific point in time. If you value it at $250 then that's what it is worth, the question really is, does anyone else value it at that and are they willing to pay its worth. It's completely subjective, the prices are literally just made up and plucked out of the air. I have never seen a true breakdown of how a price for a bonsai is decided, apart from maybe import costs that might apply.