Book of Mormon Witnesses - Pt 1 - The Three - Dan Vogel

[@jprkzoo3463]

I remember my first psychology class in college .... in which a glass of water supposably had peppermint extract added. The glass was passed around the class, in which @50% smelled the peppermint. There was no peppermint, as the it was revealed it had just been retrieved by an assistant from a hallway water fountain. The power of suggestion and one's own will to project their desires, no matter how irrational, create an environment for absolute loss of subjective reality. If you believe your house is haunted, it is.

[@iijghbh7609]

lol

[@dflctr]

Absolute loss of objective reality you mean, I suppose?

[@jprkzoo3463]

@@dflctr ha ! good catch .. my typing skills dont keep up with my head very well

[@koltoncrane3099]

This is a great example how people create subjective reality. Religions are subjective and depend on belief. But the secular World is also subjective. The U.S. dollar is the global reserve currency and yet that dollar is a piece of paper. It’s worthless and meaningless unless if you believe in it. Haha religions were good at conning people but the Us government took to conning people and became masters. Talk about a cult going mainstream yet shrouded behind technical terms and relying on peoples ignorance. For instance my favorite is the federal reserve. People think oh it’s a part of the federal government but in fact it’s privately owned by stock holders. The federal reserve pays a 6% dividend and then a 90% franchise tax to the treasury. It’s kind of like secrets talked about in church’s or temples. It’s secret and not widely talked about. Like people believing in tbr fiat dollar is subjective and requires faith. When people lose faith you have a 70s inflationary episode haha.

[@cybermollusk]

Ahhhh~ that soothing voice of facts. I could listen to this guy all day.

[@Lion_Hamza]

Best way to find sleep 😴 to 😂! His voice is very soothing.

[@AllisonJames810]

FEELINGS ARE NOT PROOF!! Ask any die hard of another faith, their feelings lead them to “the truth” as well.. 🧐🧐🧐

[@mormonmeuk]

Sounds like brother Joseph was feeding them all magic mushrooms.

[@Lion_Hamza]

Plus Weed, LSD and BathSalt ;)

[@joereyes3913]

The more I study the Mormón religion the more comical, silly and full of absolute shit it reveals itself to be. Maybe I can’t take the LDS church serious because I don’t have my magic chones.

[@camerondavis8356]

Peyote or Datura are also good possibilities for their place in time.

[@elrifle24]

they wouldnt't all trip the same vision though.

[@elrifle24]

and im not a mormon, but a substance cant explain their testimonies. ive taken shrooms before and it doesnt work like that lol. i wish an angel came to me but i just stared at the stars and thought they were fake

[@deskjockie4948]

If the gold plates were actual physical objects, why did the men need to pray or exercise faith to be able to see them?

[@fezbarbosa580]

Two answers : They need To see Nephi , The angel . But we know Joseph Smith was restouring The Church according his understandings because In his point of view “ all Christianity was wrong . He was rebuilding a new crhistianity . They need to see The same Joseph Smith was , but and The others ? The others were in The underground of The faith , They Will not be The principals of The new Christianity . Well , you know , religion is Just a kind of spirituality . I am reading The Koran and it is The same , it was a new religion , a new Revelations coming . If you want it is a lie , a spiritual lie .

[@fezbarbosa580]

When The Three witnesses was in The woods to see The plates , Joseph Smith jr told them ( to The two ) it was necessáry to see it The new religion , because if They saw them like The Eight witnesses They Will not have faith in The new faith .

[@TheChenny73]

Pretty simple, there are no Nephites, no Nephites no plates

[@mikebishop6204]

the author's analysis is much more sophisticated than most of the reader's comments who mostly respond with emotion

[@apathetiquette]

I strongly disagree with the hypnotism theory presented here. I think that the simple 'Emperor's New Clothes' explanation is more likely- "If you're not seeing it, you're not worthy... the others saw it."

[@apathetiquette]

Ryan Kummer Now that I think about it, you may actually have a point. Really, that's the way that Mormonism propagates today- "Pray about it, and you'll know." I suppose that is a sort of hypnotism.

[@dianalewis3148]

Agreed!

[@deskjockie4948]

Sounds like it was a form of self-hypnosis.

[@goodgirlkay]

@@apathetiquette I call what Mormons do, self hypnosis. Every time they are confronted with any opposition to their beliefs, they bare their testimony, which is a thought correcting exercise. It's actually a brilliant form of mind control. If I were ever to create a new religion, I would ground it in the insistence that my new followers gain a personal testimony, a la the Mormons.

[@terrillmel]

Does this explain the pentacostal experiences as well (speaking in toungues, seeing lights, falling on the floor)? The problem with the emporors' cloths analogy is that they don't actually see clothes or believe they have. They just don't say anything.

[@johne.christensen7147]

“We love the poorly educated”-- doesn’t that sound familiar!

[@sheliabryant3997]

Johne.chr. Noooooooo- Kidding!

[@alanfenick1103]

Your presentation is well researched and presented in a fair manner. When dealing with faith, facts become emotional and emotions become fact.

[@gunnerlawts]

Didn't sound fair while I was awake.

[@vaktomhu]

Isn't the entire issue of the "golden plates" and the Witnesses moot since Smith ostensibly used his seer stones to write the Book of Mormon??

[@robbiefl58]

Another outstanding video, Dan. Thanks for all you are doing in the field of Mormon history.

[@elinmortal.6264]

What the mormons told me is that you have to believe because you're heart tells you that the book is true and not because of any evidence.

[@gunnerlawts]

It goes right along with the scripture about trusting in flesh brings a curse, and trusting God brings blessings.

[@p3tr0114]

I think you'll probably find what they meant by "heart tells you" is that you will feel a sensation in that area of your body. So it is actually evidence.

[@tontoschwartz3666]

Is it true that "horseshit" is translated in Reformed Egyptian as "Mormonism?" I love Mark Twain's quip about the witnesses' testimony that, "I couldn't be more satisfied if the entire Whitmer family had testified."

[@paulpinecone2464]

First I heard that the Book of Mormon had signed affidavits, I thought okay the boy wrote em and they signed em. And wouldn't you know, actually reading the texts they do sound a hell of a lot like the way Joey Smith wrote. So why doesn't anybody just say, he presented his dupes with a document, put his hand over it and said sign the bitch. And then later they were stuck with it. This is an easy scam to suss out. Would somebody just run the affidavits through a text analyzer and determine that they have the identical word profile as the rest of Joey's hat dictation? What is the Church 'o Mormon's official story for who wrote those documents anyway? They have the original documents, right? Whose handwritting are they in? Do they have a story for how they got signed? Bet they don't.

[@williewonka6694]

The existence or not, of these plates is simply a red herring. Joseph actually read the book through the pebble placed in his hat, in the same manner he used during his money digging enterprises.

[@beeblequix]

Well done. Thanks Dan.

[@jeffharper9703]

OH AYE AND POOVIES GALLONDER WITH THE B. O. M. WITHOOT THE PLATES DADDY'O !

[@mrlds3202]

Also, there is certainly the possibility that they were using psychedelics of some sort to help enter into that disassociative state.

[@deskjockie4948]

The question of whether or not the witnesses actually saw and handled gold plates is moot, since Joseph Smith didn't even use them to transcribe the Book of Mormon. He used his magical rock-in-his-hat method. B. H. Roberts, loyal and worthy LDS historian, wrote a book titled "A Study of the Book of Mormon" in which he described Joseph Smith as "brilliant" with a ''creative imagination", and postulated that Smith was quite capable of writing the Book of Mormon himself.

[@51cheeseman]

deskjockie49 He didn’t even do that , the rock in the hat was part of the con.

[@p3tr0114]

I questioned some missionaries recently about what they've been taught about the three witnesses. The missionaries said they were taught that the three witnesses had a spiritual experience and did not really "see" the plates or an angel as such, it was something similar or the same as a vision. I then questioned them about the eight witnesses, and they said that they were taught that it was non-visionary and real.

[@lilliancooley967]

Really? The missionaries actually said that?

[@p3tr0114]

@@lilliancooley967 Yes, they really said that but the answer may vary depending upon which missionary you talk to. Some are taught differently to others.

[@aloesecretinc]

Im so glad i found your page.

[@markh.harris9271]

The BOM is so obviously a (and an easily provable) fraudulent document that a discussion of witnesses is not only irrelevant, but rather just adding insult to injury. On the other hand, multiple accounts, varying accounts, and overall low integrity of the witnesses (or conflict of interest among the witnesses) leads most thinkers to arrive at the conclusion, upon inspection of the two affidavits, that they are historically worthless.

[@Kman.]

No, since 1830 the *BOM* has been polluting the hearts and minds of people. Two questions if I may... *1* How could Jesus be the Good Shepherd if He left things unattended for 1700 years until the Mormon "restoration"? He would not have fulfilled His role, would he! *2* How can the entire faith be "restored" if in Jude 3 it speaks of the faith *ONCE* delivered?

[@gunnerlawts]

Answer to 1. - Jesus is the good shepherd irrespective of how long he leaves the world devoid of a church. If we begin at the Garden of Eden and check the Old Testament for the times God had a church, and the lengthy spans between when there was no church, you will find many centuries in the gaps - it is not out of line, or out of character. In fact, when he had a church, it was exclusive to Israel; the world had none until after the ascension, so for the first 4,000 years - nothing. I would worry less about his role and more about whether you fulfil yours, if I were you. Answer to 2. - When Jude spoke of it, it was once in his mind, but he made no reference to 1,700 years down the track. Alternatively, 'once' may not even be a count, but a time segment, as in "I answered these questions once I had read them". In fact, I lean toward the latter, as the faith was delivered to Adam, and on many occasions to parts of Israel before it got to Jude.

[@BFDT-4]

These three, and probably the eight, wouldn't be allowed on a jury or would not be accepted as reliable witnesses, and would be struck from the panel of the jury or witnesses on a typical case.

[@davidmurphy619]

Wanna buy a used covered wagon. How many of those Mormon leftovers shot for Hollywood film were meadow massacre originals sitting in the barn. What a group

[@holdruss6197]

Did I hear you say "lie"-ahona? Lol

[@JohnBrown722so]

Dan youre a great researcher

[@jacquesbazinet2172]

There were no angels, no visions and no plates.

[@hw260]

MAGIC MUSHROOMS FOR EVERYONE. VERY FUNNY 1800's SHIT. LMFAO

[@thermionic1234567]

Nowhere was it written that Smith was not allowed to make copies of the plates. This could have been done by making rubbings as the plates were said to be engraved. That's what I would have done as I would want physical proof for later study and to make translations into other languages.

[@RussellFineArt]

guitarplayingcountry Fortunately, there's absolutely no proof or testimony of those loyal to him, that Joseph Smith was deceitful, at all. He was given a huge task from God and did everything he could to complete it, just as Abraham and Moses of old. Pretty controversial acts from both of those ancients, as well. Read more on the Egyptian papyri as scholars are finding that J.S. had far more correct, than previously thought and still, very little is understood on the manuscript J.S. used to translate from.

[@carlvarga6953]

No kidding. Read the Journal of Discourse for evidence of just how bogus the LDS Church is. J.S. did not translate anything. He manufactured a fraud that millions have suffered under. He was killed for a reason, he deserved it.

[@RussellFineArt]

First, the Journal of Discourses are not recognized by the LDS church or its members as a reliable or accurate source of information as too many opinions and inaccuracies exist in them as they were never written by or sanctioned by the church. Second, JS absolutely translated the BofM from the plates, 15+ witnesses testify of this as they saw and held the plates, saw the translation process and heard an angel of God speak to them, testifying that they are from God. Emma knew Joseph better than anyone and she had nothing to gain, long after Joseph was killed and the saints moved out West. She said Joseph had difficulty writing a letter and never wrote a book in his life and absolutely translated the plates. Whether people want to believe them or not is entirely up to them but the BofM is definitely a translation from plates of ancient Native Americans.

[@stakeelderanderson7737]

D. Russell Do you have any proof of these ancient Native American plates LOL. No ok so then stop telling fairy tail lies.

[@RussellFineArt]

Of course I have proof. Read the opening pages of the 3 witnesses and 8 witnesses of the Book of Mormon and Emma Smith's testimony of retrieving the plates, moving them, on numerous occasions and the testimonies of all who saw, held and examined the plates and characters, including non-LDS scholars. Some of these witnesses left the LDS church and years later, in court, still testified that they did see and held the plates, under oath and that they were authentic. Not a single witness ever denied what they testified to. This holds up in any court of law. Now, show me a shred of evidence of Noah's ark, the Exodus of the people of Israel from Egypt, the city of Jericho. How about a single piece of any original manuscripts from the Bible? You got nothing? Thought so. The definition of faith is: the belief in things not seen but know are true. Either you have faith or you don't. We have faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in God's miracles.

[@fromanabe8639]

Why would God give Smith a "book" on gold plates that required him to "translate" using one or more "stones" placed in a hat? Why not just give him a book written in the "King's English"? Or would that have been too difficult for God? Secondly, why not leave the gold plates with Smith permanently? Doesn't the fact that the plates had to be returned raise questions about their actual existence? My feeling is that the book of Mormon is equal in veracity to the Quran, another book given to a prophet by an angel, albeit in that instance, to an illiterate cave dweller.

[@deskjockie4948]

The gold plates weren't even used in the dictation of the Book of Mormon. Numerous eyewitnesses, from Smith's wife Emma, to Martin Harris, to Isaac Hale, Emma's father, and David Whitmer, all said that Smith used his special rock in his hat to dictate the Book of Mormon. This little fact was not mentioned to us when we were investigating the Mormon church. Nor do all the beautiful paintings in the church show Smith with his face in his hat. It was this misrepresentation that first alerted me to the "pattern of deceit" that is the foundation of the Mormon church.

[@fromanabe8639]

@@deskjockie4948 Yes, I think the real truth proves the Mormon Church was founded on a complete fraud. Yet they continue as if that were not the case. But the same is true of the Quran or Koran which was "given" to Mohamed by the angel Gabriel. Mohamed was illiterate and couldn't read or write. The first parts of the Quran weren't recorded until 400 hundred years after Mohamed's death. Before that it was passed down verbally. Do you suppose any errors crept in?

[@gunnerlawts]

@@deskjockie4948 Well, you choose which has the most influence, or veracity. The pictures of Smith running his finger over the plates, or the witness of the Spirit when Moroni's promise is applied. My witness was powerful, and I reckon Smith probably ran his fingers over the plates at least once before he translated. I have no issue with artists depicting that, and the church says he had a scribe when he translated, so in the absence of the church claiming he's translating, plus the absence of a scribe, there is no veracity in there being deceit. However, you are free to think otherwise. We can't all be logical.

[@gunnerlawts]

@@fromanabe8639 No - the errors were there from the beginning.

[@JamesW225]

Charletan smith. Wonder if they were relatives

[@madcityobserver6294]

You can find the modern equivalent of the three so-called "witnesses" and their visions in any Christian evangelical tent meeting where as soon as the fellow on stage declares that he feels the presence of the "holy spirit" then his believing listeners, as if on cue, start heading for the nearest aisle so as to better be able to lift their arms, gaze up at the ceiling, and begin to shuffle their feet or hop up and down to rhythms from an electronic keyboard played for the express purpose to encourage and continue the silly demonstration for up ten minutes or more.

[@Bluepandpeyton]

I'm really so sorry of this is a bother, but someone I'm close to is really rather curious about a few things regarding the witnesses. Would you happen to know why the witnesses who left the church didn't attempt to revoke thier testimonies?

[@RussellFineArt]

Peyton Sills Because they did actually see and see what they testified of and never, at any time, even to close friends, who were antagonistic towards the church, did they every deny their testimonies. Two: Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery both came back to the church and died, in full fellowship. Whitmer died with praise towards Joseph Smith and the work of the restoration but didn't want to be associated with the church any longer.

[@hanraddas9308]

For me, the clear fraud is that Mormonism claims to have "restored the Gospel." Just read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, of which Joseph Smith did not change a single word. Then look at the Book of Mormon "gospel" in 3 Nephi 27:13-17 and Moroni 8:25. They are VERY different. The Biblical Gospel says if you trust three things about Jesus Christ you will be saved: that he died for our sins, according to the scriptures, he was buried, then rose again the third day. The Book of Mormon "gospels" says salvation comes by way of FULFILLING COMMANDMENTS. Thus, Mormonism can speak and Mormons MUST obey, or they will never gain eternal life. It is the "gospel" of those who seek to control others. Sad.

[@Robinfuckable]

Why do Mormons believe Joseph's Myth ?

[@Kman.]

*Bin* Because Satan hath blinded their minds. *II Cor 4:4*

[@gunnerlawts]

Hi there, Binny boy.

[@jonbaker476]

Mormons sort of have to imply that they REALLY saw them though, bc otherwise, all of the general public would be like: "Wait, you want me to dedicate my life to your church bc a bunch of dudes got together and pretended to see something in the woods?" Otherwise the Mormon story has no weight or value. It's just a bunch of sketchy guys playing make believe

[@thelthrythquezada8397]

All I see in my mind are 3 men meeting secretly and talking it out on how to get their story straight.

[@BobMcDanielRobertson]

They accuse us all of not being able to see God with the natural eye, however, when they speak of seing with their spiritual eyes, they declare that they never saw them at all. The truth is that the will never accept the truth and their lack of faith leaves them blind to the power of God. "having a form of godliness, but denyng the power thereof." They say the "Mormons" are hiding the truth, but when a believer opens up HIS IMPRESSION of the events, they are unhappy with the spiritual explanation because, to them, these things have been done away with. "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."

[@BobMcDanielRobertson]

Truthseeker staats: Am I mistaken or has this place gone very quiet? Would that be a sign that Deuteronomy 32-30-31 has worked. "How can one chase a thousand and two put ten thousand to flight?" I think my work is done here. Would you have any interest in a new project of mine. "Before you leave the LDS Church" on Facebook? If everyone who defended the Restoration here added their experiences to the pages, we could save many misled immature and misinformed members of the Church and the Lord will be pleased.

[@godsoffspring4195]

BobMcDanielRobertson Hi Bob. This YT place has been quite because no one has been getting notifications. I am now getting some where I have replied since yesterday. It's been whacked out for about four days. I just noticed this post scrolling through my Google my shared Google posts. Recognised that good look'in mug so I stopped to read your post. Your work is not done. This is of course unless you are getting tired of it. If so, there are many interested in your project. How do I post to .... "Before you leave the LDS Church"??

[@godsoffspring4195]

You never knew my Dad's name is Robert. Bob for short. Bob Staats. Both words are the same backwards.... LOL....

[@BobMcDanielRobertson]

Robert/Bob, son of Daniel/McDaniel/ son of Robert/Robertson.

[@BobMcDanielRobertson]

I have given all of the saints the weapons to thrash these people and the wisdom to say goodbye to the demons. Quietly but assuredly, wash the dust from their feet against the gainsayers. Prophecy against them. Testify against them. Quote the words which PROVE Joseph is a prophet and those which prove the Trinity is Satanic. THIS is not a teaching forum. This is a rock throwing contest. The LORD will not be defeated by demons, of any hue.

[@zz7007]

Smith probably gave them magic mushrooms.

[@awolLDSasap]

I've heard that - the source of "Hold to the rod" was the divining rod

[@alanc1491]

Definitely the Gift of the Rod in the Book of Commandments and the later, corrected, D&C was the dowsing or witching rod. The Smith family, of whom Cowdery was a cousin, were very deeply into the occult.

[@clarkaboud1601]

David and Martin didn't have the Aaronic priesthood for the ministering of angels in June of 1829

[@BFDT-4]

Even though it's way off topic, the same analysis should be applied to Saint Paul and the many early Catholic Saints who either had visions or physical stigmata that miraculously appear. Blindness, hallucinations, and marks on the body that have no "cause" are highly suspect, no matter the cult.

[@donworley4985]

Correction, Saul of Taurus, no Saint to it. Thanks, few, very few get what you said

[@donworley4985]

Some see thru Joseph Smith but can't see through Saul of Taurus, that has always amazed me.

[@markservice8735]

What is Delia homen and ball of director and sword of layman that you mentioned?

[@theclawsoncrew13]

How can any sane person be sucked into this religion?

[@sarahpratt9]

Very interesting and informative. I suspect that, there actually being four witnesses in this event, at least two were cooperatively lying. To attribute this vision to group hallucination is very, very generous. Martin Harris saw a great many things in his life. It is telling that he was never an apostle. I think Smith viewed him as easy to manipulate, but also a loose cannon who could not be controlled. Just my guess.

[@PhdAAA]

The 3 witnesses chose the first 12 apostles. However at that time it was not clear how powerful they would be in the future church after Joseph Smith died.

[@chrissessions6108]

Agreed. Pretending, imagining, or lying are much easier than hallucinating. As for how Joseph Smith could have convinced three friends to commit themselves so deeply to a false testimony, we need only look to another similar testimony. Published in the Times and Seasons on October 1, 1842, this testimony denied the practice of polygamy and was signed by 18 men and 12 women, including two of Joseph’s plural wives. The church readily admits that this statement was untrue, despite how many people were willing to sign their name to it. We may not know how Joseph Smith convinced his co-conspirators, but we know full well that he was capable of it.

[@richarner3856]

Charles Manson's followers never denied their testimony either 😂

[@DoctorZisIN]

When I was shown the testimonies I was skeptical: “… which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, which came from the tower of which hath been spoken.” Joseph Smith was the one with the power of God to translate the plates.The 3 men couldn’t possibly know their meaning. The testimony of 8 says: “… all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship.” They were no experts on ancient workmanship, so they were in no position to testify about it. You could argue that god told them it was true, so they didn't need understanding of the characters or expertise in ancient artifacts. If that's true, seeing actual plates was not necessary at all. They could've prayed right in their homes at the behest of Smith, then sign at the bottom of the paper.

[@jamesrexsannatracy8318]

It was all lies,blasphemous nonsense that is sending Joseph’s myth followers to HELL. SAD BUT TRUE

[@DoctorZisIN]

@@jamesrexsannatracy8318 The lies part is true, but since there's no hell, nobody's going there, mormon or not.

[@jamesrexsannatracy8318]

@@DoctorZisIN I beg to differ my friend, to each his own . But Christ taught an awful lot about hell. I tend to believe what he says.

[@DoctorZisIN]

@@jamesrexsannatracy8318 You mean you tend to believe what anonymous authors wrote about who he was and what he taught. That said, I agree: To each its own.

[@jamesrexsannatracy8318]

@@DoctorZisIN the word of GOD is inspired by the Holy Spirit, there’s nothing missing , no one has failed , and there’s no corruption of the text . What I believe is the word of God . And I can tell you this . The Mormons don’t have a clue who God , Christ , or the Holy Spirit even are . But ,I am just a man , nothing without Christ. I’m sure if you’re mormon you will continue to belittle those that dare talk about Joseph’s myth. But they are headed to hell if they don’t repent , so at least they have an IF . but narcissistic,self righteous people can’t see the truth for their arrogance.

[@WmThomasSherman]

...OR there are such things as spirit people (empirically speaking) and such could/can communicate telepathically; thus bringing about the various mind's eye visions. Again, such a possibility could at least be considered as a contributory explanation.

[@mervyneggleston429]

A person who actually knows, and there are such, can see what doubt does to ego.

[@Julio_Perez1]

Excelente job!!!!!.....is interesting heard the real arguments about the first vision, and how the 3+8 witness They thought he saw something that did not occur as the plates .

[@kenzpark5]

It sounds much like the experiences reported of guided imagery ...especially those under the influence of mood altering substance.

[@amravindeschur1463]

All of these confusing explanations on which witnesses saw what and how the testimonies vary... these historians seem to omit the possibility that the Joseph Smith’s witnesses could have been under the influence of psychedelics. I wish I could ask Alan Watts. This speaker explains that the possibility of hallucination cannot be ignored...

[@CohassetMA]

David whitmer gathered signatures in a signed affidavit of members in his community that they knew David Whitmer to be a man of sound mind and character. He then published the statement that denied reports of his having denied earlier statements that he denied that earlier testimony and said that was false and that at no time had he denied his earlier testimony. He went on further to state in that published affidavit that still stood by his earlier testimony. This happened when he was excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of L.D.S. That's strong testimony still sticking to his story even after he was excommunicated from that church.

[@StormBringer1966]

Subscribed

[@mormonsson6173]

What does it feel like chasing the wind in the distance and saying, got you in my hands now , your not as elusive as you have made us think you are?

[@atheistmommy3710]

Really well, professionaly done. But yeah, I don't know about hypnosis theory..

[@gunnerlawts]

It has holes I could drive a truck through. More, if I could stay awake.

[@terrillmel]

You should look into chanting. Budhast rituals place people in a mind altering state in which their is a high degree of suggestability. One of the major tricks of cults is that people believe they are objective and make decisions for objective reasons and yet you can line up a group on people and hypnotize them to do and believe everything you say.

[@camerondavis8356]

Sounds like these men were on psychedelics to me.

[@tracyfree75]

Is there ever an account of any of these men testing the spirits? 1john 4: 1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

[@alanc1491]

Umm, where's Part 2?

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

All fables, thank you for the truth!

[@briandm33]

When I was first baptized in 1994 the first experience that I had spiritually was about the 3 witnesses to the BOM. The feeling that I had of knowing how truthful these things are a true account that they gave while being in a trance like state to testify of the BOM. I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that this happened and all 3 witnesses did acknowledge it. What I am a witness to inside my body is not of this world and it is more sacred than anything upon the face of the earth.

[@deskjockie4948]

The people in this video had answers to their prayers that they were convinced was revelation to them, too. It's very disturbing . kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5S4p3ZvqJmJj6M

[@jamesrexsannatracy8318]

The heart is wicked above all things ,who can know it. Mormonism equals satanism . Joseph’s myth was and is a huge stain on America. If you follow this man , you’ll end up in hell. Plain and simple

[@VirtualLotus]

Sounds like Cowdry had depression.His writings definitely would be easily mistaken for suicidal ideation.

[@kittykitty471]

Here are some of the erroneous and dangerous MORMON teachings, which are in deep and obvious conflict with Christianity: "GOD used to be a man on another planet." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s . . . ," (D&C 130:22). "God is in the form of a man." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3). "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). "God the Father had a Father." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476, Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19, Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105). "God resides near a star called Kolob." (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428). "God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218, vol. 8, p. 115). NOTE: This is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38). "After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god. "(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.) "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132:20). "There are many gods." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163). "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light." (Book of Abraham 4:3). "There is a mother god." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443). "God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516). "The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35). NOTE: This is truly astounding to read, for the Book of Mormon itself states: "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." (Refer original 1830 printing of the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi, at the end of Chapter 13, on page 120, also refer the current LDS website where the same wording is quoted. This wording agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as taught by mainstream Christianity.) Blessings!

[@robertallison107]

Good posting !! Keep up the good work....

[@scottmarshall4840]

ST Leo -- I have visited many different "Biblical " churchs and have never found anyone with a closer relationship with our Savior than good Mormons. Regardless of criticisms of J Smith , isn't it interesting that a "false prophet" could start a Church that has better fruit than any other I visited? Consider this article I wrote. Why not the Best? When I was just a boy, I was quite serious minded and as I would look up into the night sky, I would wonder, “What is God like?” and “Who am I to him?” Well, I quickly discovered that there was no agreement on questions about God among any of the religions. Thus began a lifelong quest to find the answers. I have spent over thirty years talking to people of other faiths and visiting their services. It has been a wonderful experience and I think it has helped me to get a glimpse of why God allows so many religions. First of all, I have discovered that God answers the prayers of all people who call on Him. I have heard compelling testimonies of God’s mercy and miracles in all faiths, and even those without a church. It seems irrefutable that He does not require you to pronounce His Name correctly. Father, Jesus, God, Allah, Jehovah, Lord, etc. all seem to be understood by Him. He seems to know the intent of our prayers and our heart. We can communicate with Him even with incorrect beliefs. He loves all men (and women) and we are truly all brothers and sisters. Unfortunately when God answers the prayers of people in the different faiths, they misunderstand that answer as being “proof” of the correctness of their particular faith. They think God has put His stamp of approval on their religion and that they are authorized to persecute and sometimes kill people of other religions in defense of their “God”.None the less, There is an overwhelming amount of good that all religions accomplish. Looking at the big picture closer I discovered that all religions are trying to get their membership to do three things, 1. They want you to have a personal love and relationship with God. 2. They want you to actually live-----what boils down to be the “Ten Commandments” (Christians, Muslims ,Buddhists, Jews Hindus phrase it differently but it all comes down to the Ten Commandments) 3. They want you to treat our body as if it is the temple of God. This is what the leaders of all the different faiths would like their members to do. I discovered that when people actually do these three things, they all have the same results---Heaven on Earth. Or to be more realistic, they have greater happiness than through any other path. The good days are better and the tragedies are easier to survive. There are people in every faith that achieve these three things, and get “Heaven on Earth” So does that mean it doesn’t matter what religion you have? No, there is a difference. I’m a practical guy, and the practical measurable difference in the different religions is the percentage of members in a religion that achieve those three things. Some faiths may only have less than 10% of their members that do those three things. Other religions may have 20%, and others 30% . Results matter! In my lifetime of personal observations, I have not found any faith that comes close to success the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) has in getting it’s members to live those three things. It is the Best. I have six children who are happily married in the temple. I have twenty grandchildren who go to church with both parents every Sunday. I love my kids and grand kids more than life itself. I would not lead them anywhere, but where they will receive the greatest joy. Remember--- Results matter.----- Good enough is not good enough.------ Why not the Best?-------Let me use an example, Let us imagine that you have a son who you are sending to law school. You need to choose a school. School “A” has a record that 10% of it’s graduating students are able to pass the bar. School “B” has a record that 90% of its graduating students pass the bar exam. Now, I think my son is smart enough that he could be part of the 10% in school “A”, but as a loving father, I want him to have every advantage, so I want him to go to school “B” where 90% pass. It’s the best. and I want my loved ones to have every opportunity for happiness! As I said: - Good enough is not good enough for my family--. My wife and I are both converts to the Church, We have done what the Church teaches for the last 35years. It has delivered Heaven on Earth and that tremendous Joy that comes from a very personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Everyone we know who has done likewise, has had the same results. The Church instills a increased testimony of Jesus Christ that helps its members do “those three things” that brings heaven here and hereafter. Why not the Best? I have observed most ex Mormons are bitter and unchurched. That's not what I want for my family. I'm sure some ex Mormons are happy, but, it seems to be a very small percentage. So, Leo, Please write something like this that is positive that highlights the good things about your path that I am missing. Scott Marshall

[@mr.modern4419]

+Scott Marshall you don't get out much I take it. Pride goes before the fall. Better watch your step.

[@mr.modern4419]

+Scott Marshall, Do the Mormons tend to the needs of the sick and those of broken body and spirit? Do they have a network of hospitals around the world caring for the less fortunate? No the greed bastards own hotels, shopping centers and broadcast concerns making billions of dollars. They will build temples to exalt man but no hospitals to give aid or comfort to the sick and dying. Catholics do, Baptists do, Methodists do, the Jews do. Who is the best? Certainly not the LDS, unless your prophet or god is an investment banker.

[@11UncleBooker22]

Bobba Booey 3:17.3/4 :"Their eyes translated the image(s)to their brains so to receive the knowledge of the Lord and the fullness of his gospel and they learned that their BOSS was the BOSS of all BOSSES."

[@p3tr0114]

I'm confident that people can have visions without being in groups; you'll find lots of Christians out there that will claim this. So I think that puts some doubt on Vogel's theory of a group induced hallucinations. (Paul the Apostle could be an example of this.) What I also find interesting is Vogel's definition of vision and hallucination. A vision according to Vogel is something from God. A hallucination is something explainable by natural/normal means (not involving God.) Myself, I would probably describe a vision as a spiritual hallucination; one with angels and so forth.

[@TruthOrConsequences2]

Appears to me anyway, this is an attempt at grasping at straws? These explanations are not convincing and to most Christians, cannot be consistent when compared to similar New Testament accounts. For example... 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 Where it talks of Paul knowing a man being caught up to the 3rd heaven & not knowing whether he was in his body or not (God knoweth). Nearly the entire book of revelations is a vision the Apostle John had. Peter had a vision (Acts 10:9-15), Cornelius had a vision (Acts 10:1-6), Stephens vision (Acts 7:55,56). You could then expect the restoration of God's church to likewise have visions. I have no doubt that the apostate leaders of the jews used every type of arguments to keep the people in that day from believing these visions as well.

[@DanielWard79]

Restoration what restoration ? The Catholic Church has been lead by the Holy Spirit into all Truth through all generations as was promised in the pages of the holy scriptures. Joseph Smith a false prophet spoke to Satan to create a satanic counterfeit religion that speaks to the carnal nature of man.

[@meditationmusic8654]

Rick Hart there was never a total apostasy, Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail Matthew 16. There was nothing to be restored. The church has been here since Christ gave Peter the keys.

[@jephthahgatei1394]

meditation music , please explain Amos 8:11 since you are saying there was never an apostasy.

[@apearson2805]

@@DanielWard79 wtf

[@mtbikingaddict]

I came here looking for discredititation of the 3 witnesses. I don't feel nor does any of Dan's evidence do it for me in discrediting the three witnesses.

[@gunnerlawts]

Neither do I. It just put me to sleep. I perceive you are more intelligent than the usual on these sites.

[@MeToo-py1tq]

Eric Lawton Did you and Tweedly Do both listen to what Vogel in the beginning of the video state his purpose and approach for this video. Go back and listen to his introduction

[@terrytippets7023]

Amusing that so many who claim to be Christian, poo-poo the idea that one can pray to God and get an answer to a question. James in the Bible states: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1:5) Whenever I use that verse to prove a point, someone invariably states, "Oh, but that doesn't mean to pray about such-and-such!" Bet me! The admonition comes with no restrictions. We can pray about anything. Whether or not the Lord will answer is up to Him.

[@scob9200]

Terry Tippets Hey, I found Mr. Tippets! Why did you run away? I had many more questions for you to avoid. Mormons love the book of James don't they? Please come back Mr. Tippets. Here's a question, must I be baptized to be saved?

[@terrytippets7023]

Scott Beach *"Here's a question, must I be baptized to be saved?"* "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15- 16)

[@scob9200]

Terry Tippets Born of water is physical birth. Born of spirit is spiritual birth, being born again, being filled with the Holy Spirit after salvation. "but he that believeth not shall be damned", not "but he that believeth and then baptized not shall be damned." Do you know of anyone in the NT that was baptized besides Jesus, Cornelius, and Philip? Did the disciples and the apostles go to hell? The Bible speaks of Paul's conversion but never mentions him being baptized. If baptism was necessary for salvation, don't you think more emphasis would be placed upon it? Are you gonna run again, or defend your faith? Why are temple ceremonies secret? Are there biblical mandates for temple ceremonies? Why are temple ceremonies so very similar to Freemasonry? Is this biblical? If baptism follows repentance, why do you not get re-baptized every time you repent? Why does the Bible say "repent and be baptized" instead of "keep repenting and being baptized"? Why were God's own words to Joseph changed so many times? Did God not get it right?

[@cdowis]

Scott Beach >>The Bible speaks of Paul's conversion but never mentions him being baptized. If baptism was necessary for salvation, don't you think more emphasis would be placed upon it? It is sufficiently emphasized in the Stick of Joseph. That is why the Lord has given us living prophets and restored His Gospel on the earth. The historic Christian church has replaced the apostles and prophets, who were lead by revelation, with theologians and philosophers, with their advanced degrees from the universities.

[@scob9200]

cdowis I've already mentioned that I was wrong about Paul's baptism, but I will continue to say that the LDS church is a mislead people, fooled by a swindler to believe in "another gospel which is not gospel".

[@junehendeson5005]

Three different men in the same picture and they are all joseph smith on the same picture and none look alike ?????.????.wi

[@TheLouisamite]

Yeah they just look like cartoon characters them self

[@357Muzzleblast]

Ouch! One must first put aside these mens' personal reputations and not consider whether they were honest or scoundrels. Then we must put aside _what_ they said and interpret their accounts as surreal and superficial. It doesn't matter a whit whether the men were together or not, if you wanted to get into a scuffle back in those days, all you had to do was suggest that the testimony they bore was somehow mistaken. It's incredible how someone can take such a clearcut testimony and turn it into doubt. That Harris saw the plates and angel separately adds to its credibility. Dan, you seem to be dishonest in your research and in your motives. I'm willing to let God judge.

[@stevenreiley9026]

Laugh!

[@KSASTAMPS]

Could have, Might have, Possible that, Maybe that, Plausible that. None of this critique even approaches actual scholarship. How about some actual empirical evidence that supports your position here? If, for example you reject Anderson's use of character evidence for the witnesses, this closes the door for you to use such evidence as you see it as an argument against them. You can't have it both ways. Either it is possible for men to receive real visions or not. Admitting the possibility that men can hallucinate does not advance your argument one iota that the 3 witnesses were actually experiencing a subjective hallucination. Besides, what possible empirical evidence could you bring to bear on this issue? Advancing the possibility that the BOM is not historical is not evidence because it begs the question. Arguing that the experience that the 3 witnesses is invalid because it is "subjective," is nothing more than insisting that any experience to be "real," must be "objective." What you are demanding is scientific evidence (code word for "objective") to support spiritual claims, while knowing full well that there is no scientific evidence that could exist to support these claims.

[@danvogel6802]

You contradict yourself. You begin by demanding empirical evidence and end by asserting that there can be none for spiritual experiences. I think I was clear in stating that I am only raising the possibility of hallucination, not proving it. I also suggested that resolving the BOM’s historicity is the best way to decide if what the witnesses had seen was real or hallucinatory. This does not beg the question because I have not assumed anything but offered a way of empirically testing the witnesses’ experiences. If the BOM is not historical, then the witnesses hallucinated. However, if you see the issue of the BOM’s historicity as unresolved, then whether or not the witnesses had a real vision is also unresolved and therefore not compelling evidence, which is my point. My objective was not to prove the witnesses hallucinated, but to show the true nature of the experiences of the two groups and that no one handled or saw the plates uncovered.

[@joelnilespeterson]

Would it not give you pause if I claimed to have a physical manifestation that was really a spiritual vision? Why deceive or mislead in the first place? Also, how reliable would you perceive my testimony should I tell different versions? Anyone who reads these witnesses in the BoM leaves with the impression that they had a physical experience, physically seeing and handling the plates. No dates given, no description of the plates, nothing but a nebulous explanation. Why didn't they give separate individual stories? Who wrote the words? All accounts say it was Joseph Smith. So, a third party is to be trusted to record the events of three others? Highly suspicious. Highly unbelievable.

[@utah133]

There's scant actual evidence of anything religious. It's always "A matter of Faith." Well, faith is epistemologically non-falsifiable. Faith is nothing more than believing things that you don't know are true. It's "Talking yourself into shit." Personally, I don't think there is a god, and Jesus is most probably a myth. Religion is only a human reaction to the terror of uncertainty.

[@silvereagle4903]

rationalguy Jesus is most probably a myth. == Whether Jesus is God is a matter of faith. Now Jesus the historical figure is fact.

[@mc_pyro5269]

Silver eagle What evidence supports that assertion?

[@ourlifeinwashington4114]

Prayer and witnessing the fruits of the church which are very good show me the truth. Joseph Smith was visited by angels and is the true prophet of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Either you have faith or you do not.

[@deskjockie4948]

There are millions of people in the world in differing religions who have faith that there witness is valid. What makes your witness any more valid than these people? kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5S4p3ZvqJmJj6M

[@zcs7676]

Their witnesses reliability cannot be ascertained because their testimony ends in their deaths. If there was a complete chain of witnesses who were analyzed for their trustworthiness up until our time we would then be able to analyze their claims in front of our eyes. Since the book is self-contradictory itself their witness means nothing. And more importantly, there cannot be more than One True God. Since their book calls to multiple gods it cannot be from the Creator of all that exists.

[@junearvinloza3387]

Quitting the Mormon Church (Unabridged) I have been thinking of quitting the Mormon Church. Yes, if I can, I am going to get even with that church. As soon as I can find another church that teaches about the Gathering of the House of Israel; the return of the Ten Tribes and their mission; the return of the Jews to Palestine and why, and how they are going to build the temple; the building of temples and what to do with them; the mission of Elias, the prophet, as predicted by Malachi; the method for the salvation of the people that died at the time of Noah in the flood; the origin of the American Indian; the complete explanation of why Jesus of Nazareth had to have a mortal mother but not a mortal father; the explanation of the three degrees of glory (three heavens) as mentioned by Paul; the complete explanation of why Elias and Moses did not die but had to be translated (since they both lived before the resurrection was introduced by Christ); the restoration of the gospel by modern revelation as promised by Peter and Paul and Jesus himself; the belief in eternal marriage and the family, and the knowledge and the place to seal for eternity; that teaches abstinence from all harmful drugs and foods; and that sells the best fire insurance policy on earth, for the last days, for only a tenth of my income. Yes sir, as soon as I can find another church that teaches all that, or even half as much, I will say good-bye to this Mormon Church. The church that I am looking for must also be able to motivate 90,000+ youth, and adults, for the first, second or third time, to leave their homes for two years at their own expense and go to far-away places to teach and preach without salary. It must be able to call, on a frosty day, some 5 or 6 thousand professors, students, lawyers, doctors, judges, policemen, businessmen, housewives and children to go and pick apples at 6 am. It must be able to call meetings and get the attention for two hours of more than 300,000 men. Yes, it must also teach and show why salvation is assured for children who die before eight years of age. Mr. Editor, could you help me find a church that teaches all that and more than hundreds of other doctrines and principles, which I have no room to mention here, and which brings solace and comfort to the soul; peace, hope, and salvation to mankind, and above all, that answers the key questions that all the great philosophers have asked; questions and answers that explain the meaning of life, the purpose of death, suffering and pain; the absolute need for a Redeemer and the marvelous plan conceived by our Father and executed by Jesus Christ the Savior? Yes, as soon as I find another church that teaches that, and also that has the organization and the powers to make that teaching effective, I am going to quit the Mormon Church. For I should not tolerate that “they” should change a few words in the Book of Mormon - even if those changes simply improve the grammar and the syntax of the verses - for, after all, don’t you think the Divine Church should employ angels as bookmakers, and clerks, to do all the chores on earth? Don’t you think, Mr. Editor that the Divine Church should also have prophets that don’t get sick and don’t get old and die, and certainly, that don’t make a goof here and there. No, sir! A Divine Church should be so divine that only perfect people should belong to it, and only perfect people should run it. As a matter of fact, the Church should be so perfect that it should not even be here on earth! So, I repeat, if any one of the kind readers of this imperfect letter knows about another church that teaches and does as much for mankind as the Mormon Church, please let me know. And please do it soon, because my turn to go to the cannery is coming up. Also, “they” want my last son (the fifth one) to go away for two years and again, I have to pay for all that. And I also know that they expect me to go to the farm to prune trees, and I have heard that our ward is going to be divided again, and it is our side that must build the new chapel. And also, someone the other day had the gall of suggesting that my wife and I get ready to go on a second mission, and when you come back, they said, you can volunteer as a temple worker. Boy, these Mormons don’t leave you alone for a minute. And what do I get for all that, I asked? “Well,” they said, “for one, you can look forward to a funeral service at no charge!”… Do you think you can help me to find another church? Thomas D. Clark

[@Forestgump12able]

Hey Bro. CLARK. NOW THAT IS DEFENDING THE FAITH. HOW MANY WITNESSES OF THE BOM, ANOTHER TESTIFIER OF JESUS THE CHRIST, OF THE HOLY BIBLE BEING GODS WORD. WELL. 16,000,000. PLUS ALL THE MEMBERS WHO HAVE PASSED ON TO THAT PLACE, WHERE CHRIST TOLD THE THIEF ON THE CHRIST THEY WERE GOING TO THAT EVENING. PARADISE. READ 1ST PETER 3. 18. AND THEN 1ST PETER 4.6. PARADISE. THAT THEY MAY WITNESS UNTO GOD. THE SACRAMENT PRAYER. HERE, HERE, DEFENDER OF THE FAITH. YOU KNOW, ITS FAR EASIER TO BELIEVE THE FACTS TOLD ABOUT THE CHURCH, ABOUT OLE JOE SMITH, ABOUT THE BOOK OF MORMON, THAN IT IS TO GO ON INTO ETERNITY SAYING IT MUST HAVE BEEN THIS OR THAT, OR PSYCHO HYPNOSIS. SO LETS SEE HERE, WHO DID AUTHOR THE BOOK OF MORMON, ANOTHER TESTIFIER OF JESUS LOVE FOR YOU AND I, FOR THE HOLY BIBLE BEING TRUE. 1 A MAN BORN IN 1805 2. THE DEVIL TRYING TO DIVIDE HIS KINGDOM. 3. THE WIZARD OF OZ. 4. ACTUAL PROPHET'S OF GOD. DISCLOSING A THOUSAND YEARS OF HISTORY AND DOCTRINES OF GOD CLARIFYING FALSE DOCTRINE, OPENING UP GODS LOVE FOR YOU AND I, FOR ALL MANKIND.

[@robertrosskopf4641]

Dan can't imagine that the witnesses told the truth, so he has to image something else. The trouble is that his imagination is not history. He accuses the witnesses of hallucinating, but again, this is just his own imagination. So we have the witnesses claiming that they had a remarkable experience, and Dan, who wasn't there, saying that they didn't.

[@danvogel6802]

I think you missed the point. I quoted the witnesses themselves to show that their experiences of seeing an angel with the plates were highly subjective and therefore could be classed as a hallucination. I didn’t say it had to be a hallucination, only that it could not be ruled out.

[@johnroberts6695]

Vogel's arguments are not new. Like the proverbial dead horse, it's being dragged out again for another beating. Not one of the witnesses ever came forward to deny or revise their statements. They saw their testimonies in the book! And whether they saw the event together or Martin saw it later makes not a whit of difference. Talk about a tempest in a teacup!

[@nerdnul]

+John Roberts You are intellectually naive or an outright liar. The historic record is clear regarding the pseudo witnesses original claim which was drastically changed to a "spiritual encounter" not a physical experience. But you're most likely LDS and will prefer to stick to the mormon propaganda.

[@johnroberts6695]

+Maxwell Silverhammer » I just want to know, sir, whether you have any friends or people who actually _like_ you? You patrol these anti-Mormon sites and instead of intelligently discussing an issue, you seem to consistently engage in browbeating defenders of the church, name-calling and insulting people who disagree with you. These bullying tactics may work with others, but I have no interest in debating you or even discussing things with you if you can't be civil, and you don't seem able to control yourself. If you knew anything about the ancient church, you'd know its leaders used the same terms and expressions regarding the things of God that they witnessed. Moreover, the Ancient church also found contention to be of the Devil, so engage in it if you wish, but leave me out of it. Those who wish to know more about the witnesses of the Book of Mormon should find Richard L. Anderson's lecture on it here on KZbin. .

[@nerdnul]

+John Roberts I didn't say you were dim; keep calm and be conned if you must, there's no browbeating here just truth being told. Sometimes the fractures you are seeing in the LDS faith well up and cause you distress - I just want you to let it out and breath in truth like fresh air. You know as well as I do that the church of Joe Smith is in dreadful shape thanks to truth sources permitting members to research their 'faith' and see it for what it is. By the way - most of my friends are LDS or X-LDS, or X-LDS-to-be. How about you John, want to be friends?

[@GravityBoy72]

They were all liars and were in on the con. Or some were liars and the witness testimony was falsified. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

[@holidayrap]

I invite and encourage all who doubt the origins and authenticity of the Book of Mormon, to read it. That is the only way that you will know its true. Do not put your trust in man. For man and all his logic, scientific evidence and quick witted words, cannot save you at the Judgement seat of Christ. The Book of Mormon is true and nothing will change that.

[@MeToo-py1tq]

People have read the Book of Mormon this is why they don’t believe it. If you read it without investigation and only accept it because it makes you feel good then you will only see it as true because it makes you feel a certain way.

[@holidayrap]

​@@MeToo-py1tq The Book of Mormon is true. I know that. Period.

[@MeToo-py1tq]

holidayrap You think it’s the most correct book ?!

[@holidayrap]

@@MeToo-py1tq How many versions of the precious Bible are there? Man has taken the liberty of editing and adding to God's word in it. The Book of Mormon is in its purest form. Thats what makes it the most correct book. The original version of the Bible is just as correct.

[@MeToo-py1tq]

holidayrap Now this is exactly what happens with Mormons. They attack the Bible put it down put more trust in other books and even replace it with other “scriptures” . Don’t do that.

[@koltoncrane3099]

Ya it says something like they saw it with their spiritual eyes. Well that’s subjective as to whatever that means. But listen to physicists. I listened like a two hour Lecture on lexman Freds podcast and the professor was like ya as humans we do NOT SEE REALITY. We don’t perceive most things. Academia saying that is kind of shocking. Or quantum entanglement. Academics is basically saying there’s a crap ton of stuff that we don’t know about or see. Ya got ideas like multi dimensions which would explain Jesus after resurrection just appeared in the room with apostles just appearing without going through the door. And maybe things Joseph smith wrote are a lie. But it’s equally easy to argue the Bible is full Of crap and you really just need to be an atheist if you want to simply believe in logic. The Bible says tons of times jesus was carried away by the spirit. Or this kr that guy was transported by the spirit. Like WTF is that all about? How can the spirit something that’s not physical or like the wind not tangible how can that move a physical being? If we’re using logic here the Bible is full of crap just like the Book of Mormon from a logic perspective.

[@witharebelyell2762]

Why did either God lie or Joseph Smith broke his direct covenant with God about how many witnesses there were supposed to be? (a total of 3) The Covenant with God/Joseph states below: From the LDS website: www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/5.3?lang=eng [Doctrine and Covenants, Section 5:11-15] 11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. 12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them. 13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are; 14 And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness-clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners. 15 And the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word. Now, not only were there the 3 original witnesses, old Joe added some, breaking his covenant with God who said there will only be 3 witnesses. Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer & Martin Harris are the 3. 8 more witnesses were added without another word said: "BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold ; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it." Signed: Christian Whitmer & Hiram Page & Jacob Whitmer & Joseph Smith, Sen. Peter Whitmer, Jun. & Hyrum Smith & John Whitmer & Samuel H. Smith Hmmm...so MORE witnesses were added, without approval from God and therefore also didn't have the "power granted" to be able to see and feel the gold plates. Who's lying here? God or old Joe? Let's not forget. ALL OF THE 11 WITNESSES LEFT THE CHURCH. That's how much they believed their own testimony. Even Emma didn't follow the church you're probably now in. She and her son Joseph JR started the RLDS. You're all mixed up.

[@swamibubba]

1 Corinthians 2:9 eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: which could never have been seen to be read by the eye of man, nor the sound thereof ever heard by the ear of man, had not God been pleased to make a revelation of them; and though they are to be seen and read in the sacred writings, and to be heard either read or expounded, with the outward hearing of the ear; yet are neither to be seen nor heard intellectually, spiritually, and savingly, unless, God gives eyes to see, and ears to hear; the exterior senses of seeing and hearing are not sufficient to come at and discover the sense of them; flesh and blood, h Context Wisdom from the Spirit of God …8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.…

[@DanielWard79]

If Mormonism truly had the spirit why are the scriptures used as proof texts for their faith are always out of context.

[@DanielWard79]

Katjaana Aalto Your comment shows you lack humility . I hope you enjoy this Roman Catholic Holiday. Merry Christmas .

[@Kataalto]

+ST Leo The Great “Dan” +ST Leo The Great “Dan” your comment shows how ignorant you really are. your mind is narrow and your heart is hardened. you will never see the truth until you have a broken heart and contrite spirit to ask Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ yourself, like Joseph Smith did. Satan would never teach that families can be together forever after death. Satan wants you to believe that it would never be possible. Satan only believes in serving one's self. The teaching of the True LDS mormon church is the opposite of satan. Psalm 42 (souls of righteous thirst for God--- The wicked say: Where is thy God?) You Dan are the one who is acting, not of God. Maybe brother, you should actually find out for yourself. if you honestly seek the truth, God will answer you if you ask and act in faith with a broken heart and contrite spirit. You can receive the blessings also; and there are so many in store for you, there is no need to dwell in shame. Heavenly Father forgives all who just wants to be whole again. and through Jesus Christ, He had made that possible, even for you. Even for the dead who never heard the gospel here on earth. Families can be together forever, through Heavenly Father's Plan. The Gospel and the scriptures are tools in my life. Through continuously acting in faith and reading the scriptures, I can ask any question and get an answer in the scriptures regarding me and and life. its not just about the stories inside the scriptures, its how the spirit can help us use even a single verse to answer our internal multiple questions, or things that are pressing in our every day life. the scriptures can guide us in EVERY single step in our life, and never do us no harm, because of the gift of the holy ghost, which has to be received. since I have actually been growing my testimony, not once has something chaotic. Everything has been still and peaceful, and a knowing the Lord is right next me and speaking to me through the gift of the holy ghost. Yes satan often tries to mimic GOD through crystal balls, and game of chance. Satan ways has never been profitable, Satan's way leads to debt and addiction and contentment in sadness. If that is something one wants to be free from, then I urge you to take the Discussions with the missionaries. Because there is a chance to ever progress even after death. and I say these things, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[@DanielWard79]

Katjaana Aalto​​ Lets Just find out who has the Holy Spirit . Luke 21: 15 I’ll give you words and wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to counter or contradict. Ephesians 3: 21 glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus for all generations, forever and always. Has the Mormon Church existed throughout all generations ? Hebrews 1: 1 In the past, God spoke through the prophets to our ancestors in many times and many ways. 2 In these final days, though, he spoke to us through a Son. Why do Mormons have a prophet ? The only true prophet is Jesus. 

[@Kataalto]

+ST Leo The Great Youre on :) To answer your question. No the fullness of the gospel has not always been here on the earth. Amos Chapter 8: 11-12 11. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send Famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor athirst for water, but hearing the words of the Lord: 12. And they shall wonder from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. Matthew Chapter 13: 25 ( Jesus explains why he teaches in parables) 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed taresamong the wheat, and went his way. 1st Corinthinians Chapter 11: 18- 21 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. Galatians chapter 1: 6 ( Preachers of false gospels are accursed-Paul received the gospel by revelation-He believed, was taught, and preached to the Gentiles.) 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:3-11 (Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming-The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.) 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and thatman of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might berevealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only hewho now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (All that is talking about the apostasy of the Early Christian church, so lack of the fullness of the gospel, and the rising of false christs/ religions, spiritual hunger & thirst) so again to answer your question To answer your question. No the fullness of the gospel has not always been here on the earth, which is was we needed a profit to restore it. something to ask yourself, God and Jesus are GREAT. Who's to say Jesus didnt come to the Americas to teach also.The Book of Mormon is just another Testament of Jesus Christ within the western Hemisphere. If Joseph Smith didnt restore the fullness, then some body else wood have. He was just an instrument of God to bring to pass the immortality of man.

[@captaindan5006]

3 damn liars

[@BobMcDanielRobertson]

Along with Carol Gee, I visited the Peter Whitmer Farm after a trip to Palmyra for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. The spiritual experience there was even stronger than the hour long trip through the Sacred Grove produced. We went to inquire of the Lord if the Church was actually founded at that location. I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that I have never had a vidion, but I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I know the Restoration in all its glory is TRUE, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[@silvereagle4903]

The Clan Mothers of the Seneca Nation say there is nothing below Hill Cumorah and Joseph Smith stole the story of the Great Law from the Haudenosaunee people.

[@TheChenny73]

BobMcDanielRobertson Because of the contradictions in the BoM theHoly Ghost is not accurate for anything. How can the HG testify that contradictions are both true.

[@billscannell93]

If you're looking for something, you'll find it. If you want to see something bad enough, you'll see it. Oh, religion.

[@scottmarshall4840]

Mr. Modern44, Yes they do on many different levels. No organization gets more good from every dollar than the LDS church! Thank God for the work of the other religions too!! Why are you so negative?

[@milkquarry1082]

The Book Of Mormon is false. It bout People who never existed.

[@robertallison107]

No doubt. Harry Potter is bound to show up in Mormon writings, eventually.

[@gregj4509]

A lot of words and conjecture which add up to a big nothing burger

[@JohnBrown722so]

Sweden BORG cern has a borg Thanks

[@edwardrunningbear9292]

Good stretch looking for issues that are not issues. There is so much more to the Subject. If it was a lie why did they all stick with it. While you sit and attempt to find fault in others you fail to show where you have any thing comparable much less any thing better to offer the world than that contained in total sum of the work started through the accounts of Joseph Smith. You can tear down something but where is your better vision that I should replace it with?

[@TheJonnyzeus]

+Edward Running Bear...... I see. And I suppose you don't consider the inherent unlikelihood of the natural order being overturned by the appearance of an "angel" to three guys and a convicted fraudster in upstate NY? If your religion is based on a lie then where do you stand? And that doesn't mean it has to be replaced by a "better vision" as you suggest. Each unlikely event should be considered on its own merits. Angels don't ordinarily appear, do they? The fact that the people who said they saw one all had a vested interest in maintaining the story casts the account in shadow. In other words they were all in on the deception.

[@edwardrunningbear9292]

Where are the angels today? Are you suggesting that the unchanging God has changed his methods of operation? 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelations 14:6-7 Funny thing about truth it dose not need to be defended it stands up well on it own. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints preach the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. 19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:19-23 All thing are being restored under the direction of Jesus The Christ that is the message we have to preach. If it is true I must proclaim it that you may be left without the excuse of saying that it is my fault you did not hear of it. You can accept this message or not I do not care for I have done my part. If it is not true then it will pass away and then what difference will it make to you? 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Ephesians 4:9-14 Where are the Apostles and prophets to day? Have we come yet to a unity of faith? One example of the many things that have been restored. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Timothy 2:14-16 For more information about the restored gospel check out Mormon.org

[@aeyacastanares1034]

it's just simple if you know the history of how missionary of the Church of Jesus Christ in latter day Saints starts their routes in spreading the Gospel as you can see on the page the names of the witnesses were not the same..only the have common were the prophet Jospeh Smith show it to them..Given a chance what if the place of the said event were different i believe that if you go to different place and we new we always addresses ourselves to the place where well known people they have known in that place ...if you are missionary that time you will do the same..who knows putting their names on the first few pages on the book of Mormon is just a appreciation of their contribution for the payment of the printed pages..and besides the Gospel inside the Book of Mormon is still the same with the old version..we just only focus on the Gospel not the one who have write it and always be humble and put Jesus Christ on a center of our lives the world will be at peace ....

[@gary1636]

Most members know this. And. What do you bring new?

[@danvogel6802]

I'm not producing these videos just for members. They still need to know that the three witnesses saw a vision that was no different than people in other churches and religions see, that it was possibly a hallucination, and that the printed testimony is sketchy and incomplete. This is important when examining the testimony of eight witnesses since many make assumptions and try to reconstruct their experiences based solely on the published testimony, which is a mistake.

[@gary1636]

@@danvogel6802 Dan Have you checked out Wayne May's videos.? Very convincing archeological evidence that the book of Mormon is true. Might I suggest "Quick start to Comorah". Also there is one by another author about the geography related to the battle for Zarahimla between Alma's army and Abinici' s army. The geographical references are so precise they know within 200 feet of where Alma prayed on the 369.5 mile of the Mississippi river, formerly the Sidon river.

[@danvogel6802]

@@gary1636 I reject the heartland theory because it isn't what is in the BofM or what JS said about geography. I hope to eventually present this information in futre videos.

[@gary1636]

@@danvogel6802 kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJTMmmyGaL-Xa9k That's a link to one of Wayne May's videos.. He shows Joseph Smith's own words about the Great lakes area being the land of the Book of Mormon. Also the DNA matches with many of the native American people. People have found swords, breastplates, cooper mines in the same area, and Hebrew

[@danvogel6802]

@@gary1636 Yes, I'm aware of the heartland geography, which is forced and doesn't fit the BofM. The BofM is hemispheric just like the Mound Builder Myth that JS and many in his time believed. It's impossible, but that's why the BofM isn't real history. The mounds and artifacts were well known in JS's day. Some times these artifacts were not ancient American, but European in origin. Like steel swords.

[@TheStobb50]

How about three witnesses plus Joseph Smith Wrote the book of Mormon

[@gunnerlawts]

Yeah - just add it to Smith completely made it up on his own; he stole a novel from Solomon Spalding; he plagiarised 'View of the Hebrews; he plagiarised 'The Late Wars"; he plagiarised 'Adventures of Marco Polo', and more - anything but translated plates from an angel. Satan loves to give gullible fools plenty of options.

[@vinster9165]

Eric Lawton I know it is extraordinarily painful for you to come to the realization that you spent your entire life believing in a hoax, but if you come to accept it, you will feel liberated. Eric Lawton, it’s time for you to accept a painful truth that the religion is an unadulterated hoax, a complete fraud. Just keep looking into the matter further.

[@CohassetMA]

My 4th generation grand father Ezekiel Johnson originally conspired with the mob. He was eyewitness/ earwitness to the attempts of Hurlburt and Howe to discredit the church with the Spaulding Manuscript.. Because Exekiel Johnson was not a member of the Mormon faith, he is an excellent witness. Contrastingly Hurlbur and Howe were excommunicated members of the Mormon faith and had every reason to be biased. Ezekiel eventually changed and became a believer. But he died at the hands of the mob who thought he was a traitor. He suffered death 2-3 weeks after a severe whipping by the mob. Hurlburt and Howe are frequently quoted by anti mormon critics. Their bias makes them very unfit as reliable sources. I am the husband of this account holder. All the adversity and opposition to this church only increases my testimony of the truthfulness of itm. There were 150 to 200.new churches established same time as the Church of Jesus Christ of L d. Why should there have been so much persecution and opposition by Satans followers unless Joseph Smith , a 14 year old was telling the truth? There should have been just as much opposition to the many other churches that were having their beginnings at roughly the same time.

[@JohnBrown722so]

They really mislxled ppl

[@ldswife5339]

I think we need to take our questions to faithful sources

[@danvogel6802]

I don't privilege one group of sources over another. That's lazy. Some might be suspicious of so-called "faithful sources" due to bias. Historians are trained to deal with all the sources. If you chose to only deal with faithful sources, you will create a closed system of circular reasoning.

[@r311m5]

LDS wife this is what the church has conditioned your brain to do when there is information that will challenge your faith From someone who was fully invested in the church for 40 years, I understand this line of thinking and avoided “anti-Mormon” literature as it was a “tool of satan”. But I challenge you to look at information objectively without the end result always being “the church is true” or “it’s not faith promoting” . Look at the information as if you were studying it for the first time without the confirmation bias Anti -Mormon is actually most of the time, true objective information the church has hid or from you or altered. Would you find it fair to raise your child without them knowing EVERYTHING before they committed their lives to it?

[@cdowis]

Vogel has a serious problem with "source control". Here is a specific example, quoted from another post. ... while I was reading the footnotes to his essay on "The Validity of the Witnesses Testimonies" I noticed his note 60 referred to a letter from "26 November 1857, where Isaac DeMill, then living in Saline (Michigan?) wrote to his brother Freeborn De Mill and a sister living in Manti, Utah, mentioning a a story he had heard about Joseph Smith use of hypnosis or "magnetizing" in Broome and Onondaga Counties, New York, and that he had learned the art of a German pedler'" and he cites the presence of the letter in the archives. So we get a wealth of detail about the sources and people and archives involved, which is all very impressive except that all of it builds up to what is basically a late unsourced fourth-hand rumor. Why does he bother? Is that the best he can do? The best evidence that Joseph Smith used hypnosis on the witnesses is an unsourced rumor from 26 years and several states away?

[@TheStobb50]

I’ve come across lots of reasons not to continue with in the moment church but this about the three witnesses it’s not one of them

[@jeepmap1]

To the author of this material: Ive seen material like this almost to the exact same pattern about the actual existence of Jesus in both Roman and Jewish history; incredible parallel between your work and theirs; must have reached out to the same ‘author’ in the background if you’d know what I mean; one day you’ll know anything can be proven either way; Jesus, Creation, the Great Flood, the Resurrection and so forth; materials like this ( Though the author boasts in his deep and vast preparation) can be produced on any given subject meant to be based on faith; yes, one day you’ll realize this is by faith not by evidence; the Savior and his earthly existence and resurrection is meant to be by faith not by evidence; we are here to believe and NOT be proven; ‘if you believe in me you shall have eternal life’ or ‘ if Im proven real you shall have eternal life’....

[@danvogel6802]

If by faith, then why the need for witness to the plates? I only question the history, not the faith.

[@jeepmap1]

@@danvogel6802 I dont know, you tell me, apparently this is how God works, many times you will find this in both Old - New testament ( Jesus, 'go and tell them' ) - the basic principle is found :2 Corinthians 13:1 “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

[@danvogel6802]

@@jeepmap1 You said it was by faith not evidence. Do you now contradict yourself? I do not question faith, only the evidence. The evidence is not convincing.

[@jeepmap1]

@@danvogel6802 I dont think I contradict myself, as the scriptures say, God works by his witnesses. Thats what I referred to. I dont think it is called an evidence. It is a witness. from the testimony of that witness you can start your own 'investigation' then ultimately build up your own faith. where you question the witnesses in your video, trying to prove this or that, thats where I did say, it's not by proof but my witnesses and then faith. even a court case is decided by faith. well known it is. a jury looks at the 'evidence' the witnesses then they decide what they believe in. it's not a 100% accurate comparison but close enough to make the point. my point is, what you are proving or disproving in your video either way can be believed by FAITH. I often wonder what made Jesus's discipline leave the faith behind. right on, just left the Savior. maybe someone was trying to 'prove' something. maybe a rumor. maybe an anti. we will never know. John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[@bessiebraveheart]

i'm a seventy yr old englishman and i have testimony of the book of mormon. and nothing anyone can say will change that testimony. god lives, jesus is the christ, and joseph smith was and is a prophet of god. amen.

[@johnlee1352]

+John James McCartney Well said, brother McCartney!

[@swamibubba]

+John James McCartney thank you brother many blessings

[@kittykitty471]

+John James McCartney Cannot argue against a closed mind! I hope one day the truth will be revealed to you. Blessings.

[@robertallison107]

No proof, no plates, no foundation for your "faith". You have certainly lowered the bar on what to believe...

[@johnlee1352]

No stone tablets, no ark of the covenant...yeah, the bar is way low...

[@rh8528]

Is Dan still a practising Mormon?