Discussing Northanger Abbey With Nick

[@ElliesCozyChronicles]

Northanger Abbey is my favorite book after P&P. I love Catherine and as Nick said I find this book refreshingly different 🤗 Thanks so much for this video💐. I enjoyed it very much!

[@lizlittle1641]

Northanger Abbey is my favorite Jane Austen novel. I love the mystery and intrigue in it. I agree with Nick.

[@kathygelineau7144]

I love Northanger Abbey! And I loved getting both your perspectives on it. You really helped explain to me (a devourer of stories but no real judge of literary merit) why this novel is so often looked upon as a least favorite Jane Austen novel by those who really understand literature. Thank you so much for making this video! However, I do study human nature so I must just explain why I believe you're wrong about Isabella Thorpe having true friendship for Catherine Morland. Isabella is four years older than Catherine and ages ahead of her in practical knowledge. When they meet in Bath, she has already met Catherine's brother, James, whom she (Isabella) has been told by her own brother is well-to-do. Isabella immediately becomes Catherine's "best friend", monopolizing her time and attention and dropping hints as to her favorite complexion in a man and partiality to the profession of clergyman that are intended to cause Catherine to link Isabella and James in her own mind so she will encourage James to think of Isabella as a potential mate. Once James is there in the flesh, Isabella can't give Catherine the time of day, constantly professing her adoration for her even as she gives her no time even to reply to her professions and questions in favor of flirting with James. She can barely be bothered to respond to Catherine's letters once she goes to Northanger Abbey until she needs her to intercede with James to plead with him to trust in Isabella's love for and devotion to him, fully believing naïve and trusting Catherine can be convinced of anything Isabella tells her. No, Isabella is no true friend to Catherine!

[@buchdrache1409]

I want more videos with the two of you together!!! I love that you both are not of the same opinion and have such fun and interesting discussions! Loved this discussion. I reread NA this month after a long time. And i found it underwhelming. But i liked the views you both expressed regarding Isabella. She can so easily be dismissed as a giddy, vacillating, and a rather thoughtless girl, but it is so true that she would have to marry well and had to make calculations keeping that in mind. And she too is, in her own way, very naive. Being led astray by someone like Captain Tilney is of course possible, and he deserves far far more criticism for his actions than he gets.

[@angelaluz405]

I love Northanger Abbey! Henry Tilney is my favorite of Austen's male leads. I also, honestly, love the fact that its main purpose appears to be humor. I like Austen best, when she's the most humorous. So...my favorites of her works are Pride and Prejudice, Northanger Abbey, and Lady Susan...and I think they always will be.

[@rlabarbera]

Mr. Tilney is my absolute favorite! My husband reminds me of him and I'm actually a lot like Catherine LOL.

[@launchedathousand]

This was a fun discussion. I just reread Northanger Abbey this year and I agree Henry Tilney's constant sarcasm is a bit much. I think part of the reason I love him though is the portrayal by JJ Field.

[@kompas29]

Comparison of Harriet Smith and Catherine Morland is so good, I agree completely. And looking forward to that retelling of NA from Eleanor's point of view. She is really interesting.

[@lorrainetaylor9852]

This was a great conversation - very entertaining but good content and commentary too.

[@maryfilippou6667]

What an impressive, in- depth discussion. I must reread it! If only some politicians could make their points so succinctly and in detail. It was so assured a discussion and obviously well-attended to.

[@davebonello1944]

(Melanie here) Great to see Nick again :) Northanger Abbey is my least favorite but I do get more out of it by learning more about Jane Austen's use of parody. Thanks for another great video.

[@priscilla.t.a]

I very much love a Gothic novel and a parody, so I suspect those are the reasons I enjoyed Northanger Abbey so much. I also started my read through of all the Austen novels in July with Northanger Abbey, so that allowed me to read it without thinking of comparing it to the other much more developed/polished novels. I also primarily thought of it as a coming of age story, almost like a modern, light-hearted YA novel, and I think that too made the lack of depth in many of the characters less obvious to me. But having now finished my read-through, I can certainly see that Jane Austen might've done much more with the novel if she'd come back to it later on. I really enjoyed this video. Nick's obedient nodding at Mansfield Park being good (I agree) at the end was hilarious 🤣 Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@christinafielder3641]

I do so enjoy Nick's insights into classic literature & very much hope we can look forward to his analysis of 'Persuasion', which I think is Austen's mature best.

[@Meek0h]

You both voiced my same thoughts after finishing this book! Good discussion, thanks for sharing.

[@stroke_of_luck]

Northanger Abbey is my favorite because Katherine is the character of Jane Austin who grows up the most. She starts up as a starry eyed silly girl, and she finishes as a young woman who has learned the most about who can be trusted and who can’t and what is real and fantasy.

[@kompas29]

I completely agree with your assessment of Isabella Thorpe, she is accused but she is actually not that bad as it seems. Not to forget she is very young! Katie's idea about the future of Mr and Mrs Henry Tilney is quite interesting and seems quite realistic.

[@brendaredmond4678]

I have read them all except Northanger Abbey. I think I will give it a go. Thanks guys.

[@montanalilac]

My first Tunisian project was a thigh length sweater. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ Wrong weight yarn in the first place, then I used the recommended hook size instead of going up so it’s super dense and stiff, curls like an absolute bugger, and all in all a disaster. In spite of that, I have discovered a true love for Tunisian crochet. ❤❤❤

[@sonitagovan]

I have never really enjoyed Northanger Abbey in the same way that I love and understand all other Jane Austen novels I am always trying to unlock whatever it is other readers love about this book. Thanks for this video it was really interesting.

[@janetsmith8566]

Thank you for loving Fanny Price! Please do a vid on how her SILENT OBSERVANCE aided her and caused her to discern what all the noisy talkers around her never could!

[@meghanthestorygirl4581]

It was great to hear you both talk about this! It's my least favourite Austen too so I really appreciated how you articulated the areas it could improve in.

[@lisainbookland]

These videos are always a nice part of Jane Austen July! Northanger Abbey is also my least favourite Jane Austen so interesting to hear Nick enjoyed it so much. I agree the Bath section definitely feels longer, and I always enjoy it more, maybe as it’s less Gothic-heavy? Henry Tilney isn’t really for me as I struggle to get sarcasm sometimes, even in real life, and he would drive me up the wall! To be fair I’d say I would be the same with Jane Austen herself were we ever to meet 😁. Will be looking forward to hearing ye discuss either Sense and Sensibility or Persuasion next year 😊

[@katiejlumsden]

Thanks, Lisa! I do like the Bath section more I think.

[@slashbash1347]

It took a while for the titular Abbey to even get a mention. Something I wonder, could Thorpe's obsession with carts and horses be interpretted as an old version of an autophile?

[@katiejlumsden]

Agreed!

[@LadyIarConnacht]

Humor that can laugh back at itself is like a hall with a mirror at each end. To get the joke, you can't stare straight into the mirror. Henry can be a little mean, because he's had a hard time in life, he has a very mean and demanding father, etc. but he is clearly affected by Eleanor to be a better person. Catherine likes his humor even at times she doesn't quite understand it - but she's not going to be a teenaged country girl forever. There are times in the book where her instincts guide her correctly and Henry learns from that. There is no way Henry and Catherine are going to turn into the Bennets - first of all, Henry is bound by honor and duty. Secondly, Henry is already showing signs of growing up and becoming protective of her. Lastly, he is becoming a parson and can't indulge in looking down on everybody around him.

[@gabrielcardoso8512]

Beautiful novel 👌

[@coloraturaElise]

You know, when you were talking about how Isabella Thorpe is given a lot more time in the book than Eleanor Tilney, it popped into my head that Austen probably preferred the bad characters because they were more fun for her to write! Katie, you mentioned it needed another edit: have you ever considered doing that work yourself, in her style, and making it work better as a book? For instance, in developing Catherine Morland and Henry Tilney more, so that the end makes more sense. They could have more time together, even while they're still in Bath, along with Eleanor and later on, her intended, exploring the abbey and its environs, as well as his future home. I think it could be really interesting to see what you might do with it. I've always enjoyed the Sandition completion by "Another Lady" because I felt that was what she was doing--finishing it as Austen might have. Obviously, NA wouldn't need as much input as Sanditon did, so it wouldn't be as daunting a task. ;-)

[@coloraturaElise]

It occurs to me that a fun addition could be to contrast John Thorpe taking Catherine for a drive with Henry Tilney doing the same, to visit abbeys/castles in the area. Janine Barchas exposes the futility of Thorpe's efforts in this direction in her book "Matters of Fact in Jane Austen", a book I cannot too highly recommend--it completely changed my perception of Northanger Abbey. It made me realize that we modern readers COMPLETELY miss the joke of Thorpe proposing to drive miles and miles out of town to see one castle, which he tells Catherine is amazing and not to be missed, when there is one VISIBLE ON THE VERY STREET THEY ARE DRIVING ON as they are leaving town and see the Tilneys. And the castle Thorpe is puffing off to Catherine is a sham castle, Blaise Castle, a miniature model tourist attraction! So you could add a scene where Catherine eventual outing with the Tilneys is to the sham castle in town on Bathwick Hill.

[@bili8617]

I think Catherine did mature by the end of the book. At the beginning she's so naïve that she can't even make a judgement about someone's character. She always defers to someone else. By the end she learns to trust her instinct and observation more. She does profess to aspire to more sensibleness and less dreaming in the future, so I think she learnt her lesson. And I think this is why I don't think that they would become like the Bennets. Catherine might be guileless, but she is not stupid and not that superficial, so I think she would have a head on her shoulders. Even though they have dinner manner - one direct and one sarcastic and mocking at times, they both have integrity and strong morals, so I think that will keep their affection strong.

[@lellymills]

I really enjoy the discussions you have with Nick, he's clearly as passionate about reading as you are. Does he also work in publishing? I'd like to see more discussions with the two of you.

[@katiejlumsden]

No, he just likes to read too. Perhaps we'll try and do one in Victober :)

[@Lu.G.]

Always enjoy hearing Nick's perspective, even if he's _wrong!_ 😂 Northanger Abbey is also my least favorite and I'm thinking that I should give it a reread soon. 📚

[@leafsonata]

I'm reading chp 9 now and Im really struggling to get through it. I am having a hard time relating to such a young, inexperienced character, but I'm going to push through. Maybe i would like it better on audio.

[@kathleencraine7335]

A JA re-telling of NA focusing on Eleanor--sounds like your next novel, Katie!

[@katiejlumsden]

Haha and maybe a retelling of P&P from the POV of Mrs Bennet too!

[@MarilynMayaMendoza]

Hi Katie and Nick, I agree with Katie that Northanger Abbey is my least favorite Jane Austen book. It feels like two books. And I think you mentioned that. What I didn’t like about Isabella Thorpe was her bad listening skills if you could call it that. That made her unlikable to me, not that she was looking for a rich husband or looking out for herself. She never listened to what Catherine was saying and she showed a very uncaring attitude toward her leaving her in the dust at the dance etc. I hated Jim Thorpe because he was the worst person but I can see the comedy in it also. Somehow I’d liked Mr. Tilney. He had some good lines about books and I thought he was romantic in his own way. I couldn’t get a a sense of who the general was and I think he was part of the Gothic parody more than an actual character. My favorite book is a tie between pride and prejudice (and) persuasion. Wonderful video. I love how you both go in depth . Aloha

[@lisabailes1065]

I read Northanger Abbey and Mansfield Park for the first time this month. During your great discussion I kept confusing the Thorpes and the Crawfords in my mind. Is it a common theme to have a brother-sister pair as villains? I can’t think of later Victorian novels like this.

[@katiejlumsden]

Interesting thought. The Brasses in the Old Curiosity Shop by Dickens spring to mind, but I can't think of many others in Victorian literature, and the Old Curiosity Shop is one of the slightly more old-fashioned Dickens books.

[@FullyBookedMelissa]

Just finished Northanger Abbey today and jumped to this video. Agree with almost all of this. I found the Thorpes fascinating and they were by far my favourite characters. I'm struggling to rank this one against the other Austen novels I've read. I can't decide if I like it more than Emma or not. Characters not very well developed but this had me laughing throughout. I also though Mrs. Allen's dialogue was hilarious. That woman didn't care about anything except fabric and dresses 😆

[@katiejlumsden]

I do agree - it's very funny but the characters are less rich. I think it makes it slightly less rereadable than her other books.

[@janetsmith8566]

Isabella may well have simply been applying the age old ploy of playing both sides at once- hedging your bets- and losing both. It’s happened to many of us!

[@gabrielcardoso8512]

Good night 🌕

[@stefannilsson364]

Haven't read Northanger Abbey yet. As it's a parody of the Gothic novels ought I to read some of the popular Gothic novels of the time to get the jokes, or is being reasonably well-read enough?

[@alicemcveighnovelist]

Well, you can imagine it. Coach crashes and kidnapping of lovely maidens, spooky castles and false leads, melodramatic dialogue etc. I really don't think you need to have suffered reading any, myself!!!

[@katiejlumsden]

You'll still enjoy it. The sort of tropes of gothic are still around today so you don't need to have read books from the time really :)

[@harmonyln7]

Northanger Abbey is the first Jane Austen book I'm reading. Started it yesterday and there seems little point to it, but for social nonsense. So far the little I've seen of Mrs Allen and Mr Tilney both seem very superficial, especially Mr Tilney.

[@mirandaquammie]

Please could you do a video discussing Emma with Nick?

[@katiejlumsden]

I think we meant to do so last year and didn't get round to it!

[@richardthrust1126]

I actually think that Northanger Abbey is the favorite Austen novel for many men, and the least favorite for most women. Pride and Prejudice is to women what Casino Royale is to men. In contrast Northanger Abbey's humor and satire are more intellectually interesting, and the romance between Catherine & Mr. Tilney is more realistic and fun than the sturm und drang in P&P.

[@asdabir]

I definitely took Henry to be joking/sarcastic when he seems to suggest that women are stupid.

[@katiejlumsden]

I think he might be, but it still sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[@asdabir]

@@katiejlumsden fair enough!

[@kevinrussell-jp6om]

A VERY good discussion about this anomalous JA novel. Thank you. I would label this one light-hearted and mean spirited, whereas Mansfield Park is cynical and serious. I enjoyed NA more. JA clearly had the parody intent front and center, thus the character work is thin in places. We're often left wanting more. Still, the Thorpes are excellent (if sad), General Tilney is calculating, unsentimental, ruthless, and scheming, Captain Tilney is a rake and a monster, and Elinor is a poorly-realized bridge to Henry and the dead mother. The opinion that Henry will turn into another Mr. and Mrs. Bennet (making Catherine an introduction of Jane Gardiner, as was, AKA Mrs. Bennet) is interesting, but I hope it's wrong. Henry defied his family and was clearly not fortune hunting (she had even less to offer than the commercial middle-class Gardiners), but both men were motivated by youth and beauty. I would rather believe that Henry (as a clergyman) will be better at his job than Edward Ferrers but esteem his spouse in a similar way. Catherine had enough sense to finally conclude the Thorpes were to be avoided, and that her own conduct was flawed. Mrs. Bennet (as presented in P&P) never seems to grow in the least in wisdom or understanding, although still a fine figure of a woman in her early 40's. As an added bonus, I’ve included a one-word summary for the books (ordered as the excellent John Mullan suggests they might be read), plus Lady Susan. Lady Susan: Sardonic Pride and Prejudiced: Delightful Emma: Perfect Mansfield Park: Cynical Persuasion: Romantic Northanger Abbey: Sad Sense and Sensibility: Promising

[@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711]

I reread Northanger Abbey for JAJ this year. Often this shifts my order of preference but I found this remains my least favourite Austen, although still a joy. As you two say the characters are generally less rich. Nick needs to reread Mansfield Park in a few years time doesn't he?

[@katiejlumsden]

Haha, yes, he does!

[@elizabethmoloney6967]

I have to agree with hubby. I prefer Northanger Abbey to Emma . I have tried but failed on morethan one occasion to like Emma, nefarious creature. Yes, title all wrong for this book

[@kahkah1986]

Is Henry Tilney sexist? The assertion that he is undermining humorously, that women write better letters, is in itself sexist. Plus, is this maybe another family joke in there?; Austen of course was a brilliant writer, the equal of a male author, but the faults Henry makes fun of, like 'a total inattention to stops' are definitely part of Austen's style of writing, and she herself made fun of her 'general deficiency of subject' in writing about what she knew. Plus, while he does explain things to Catherine, such as landscape theory, he has had access to an education that Catherine would not be allowed, so it is good manners to explain what he is talking about to her? Mansplaining is a modern phenomenon bc women now have access to equal amounts of education to men, but social conventions haven't kept up imo. I agree about Catherine and Henry turning into Mr. and Mrs. Bennet though. Catherine just doesn't get his jokes most of the time. It is cute that she is so genuine bc she is young and pretty, but eventually that will tell.

[@iamsanna4567]

I'm not a fan of Henry Tilney either, he's way too sarcastic in my opinion. You're probably right about him and Catherine ending up like Mr. and Mrs. Bennett.

[@ellie698]

I'm really not keen on Henry Tilney. Catherine deserved a better husband. Not Crawford either. She didn't have much choice 😕

[@carly9077]

Notice that almost every antagonist is Austen's novels are narcissist!

[@katiejlumsden]

True!