Know Your Tropes: Fantasy Edition

[@SpinstersLibrary]

I love your analytical discussions. I'm trying to get more into fantasy, so this was just so interesting to me, I almost felt like I needed to take notes on those different tropes and subgenres like in school (but I'm lazy so I didn't)

[@bookslikewhoa]

Haha, I went deep down the rabbit hole on this one trying to get my thoughts organized! Glad it was helpful!

[@DougerSR]

I LOVE FANTASY!!! Thanks for this. Fascinating stuff.

[@IrmiRose]

As someone who has only started reading fantasy (and sci-fi) in the last couple years, this was so instructive and I really appreciate that you are doing this whole series because it's has given me some great insight into my preferences (and developing preferences.) On another note, I hate that I have such a backlog of bookslikewhoa videos, I usually watch them the day you post, but I'm trying to catch up on Kate Daniels (I'm only on Burns at this point). And like I'm sure others who enjoy your videos, I'm someone who would likely have never picked up the series but for listening to your eloquent enthusiasm for them. Thanks so much, Mara! You've been cranking on the content and I appreciate it!

[@bookslikewhoa]

Oh yay! Nothing makes me happier than converting people to Kate Danielsism :D. I've put out so many videos the last couple of weeks- I know it's overkill for some people, but... yeah. I really wanted to review all the Kate Daniels books without missing my normal content. And it's my channel so I'll do what I want!! ;)

[@vamps_rock]

Not overkill! I'll be going back and watching all of those vids when I've read each book which I'm starting either today/tomorrow. TBH I don't think there's enough about UF on BT so I'll always encourage more!

[@yogiwithabook]

I absolutely love your discussion videos. You always seem to verbalize feelings I have but haven’t teased out, so thank you. I definitely agree with you on liking liminal and intrusion fantasies best (also thank you for this vocabulary) and the medieval immersive stories usually put me off. Thanks for the recs, I’m definitely going to be looking up the titles I’m less familiar with! If you wanted an urban possibly liminal but also almost surreal in points fantasy, I’d say check out The Changeling by Victor Lavalle

[@bookslikewhoa]

Thank you so much! I'm dying to try some Victor Lavalle- the way people talk about him sounds like it is right up my alley!

[@kendraanderson4274]

This was a great video. This really help me to understand what type of books I like to read in the fantasy genre thank you.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Glad it was helpful!

[@johncostello8774]

"The immersive fantasy to rule them all." Omg so funny!! Love your videos!!

[@bookslikewhoa]

Thanks!!

[@zakjackson2610]

This was great! Highly informative. I'm almost finished with The Hobbit for the first time (don't judge me)... But I'm finally realizing that I love this genre and can't wait to dive into many more great fantasy books. This video is definitely a big help!

[@bookslikewhoa]

Yay, so glad it was helpful! And no judgment-- we all come to books in our own time :)

[@cautiouscharlie]

Thanks very much for this breakdown!

[@catherinechen1659]

I feel the same as you! My favorite is also in the middle spectrum.

[@RashmikaLikesBooks]

I totally agree! Eurocentric mythology is sometimes a little overplayed in fantasy and it would be interesting to add more variety. Do you have any recommendations of some of your favourite fantasy series that use other mythologies?

[@bookslikewhoa]

My go-to rec for non-Western Euro mythologies explicitly used in fantasy is the Kate Daniels series! They include myths & religions from literally all over the world as the basis for their urban fantasy world- since it's a world where all the gods are coming back to life, you get a lot of different cultural traditions represented :)

[@RashmikaLikesBooks]

@@bookslikewhoa oh, thank you! I'll definitely learn a lot about it from your channel then. 😊

[@bookslikewhoa]

Haha, I should get a commission ;)

[@danecobain]

I feel like the His Dark Materials trilogy (my favourite books of all time) is intrusion, liminal and portal all in one :D

[@bookslikewhoa]

Yes, I kept thinking of examples like that where I was like... hmm. This seems to be a hierarchy defier! But the categories kind of helped me make my way through things when I was sorting out my thoughts, so I decided to roll with it :)

[@emilianobishop9934]

You prolly dont give a shit but does anyone know of a method to log back into an Instagram account?? I was stupid lost the account password. I appreciate any help you can offer me

[@joemiles8402]

@Emiliano Bishop instablaster :)

[@mastersal4644]

Interesting topic - and ironically I have been meaning to read the book you referenced. I think though this is the first time I’ve not agreed with your tastes. I am not a fan of liminal (sp?) fantasy as much as immersive (aka high fantasy). I think the latter when done well has the power of testing our institutions the best. Still I am going to check all the books you showed. 🙀 great job!

[@CaffeinatedCovers]

I am listening to the audiobook of Children if Blood and Bone, and I agree with what you said about how it handles the subject of oppression better because it’s an immersive fantasy. It’s easier to listen when you aren’t defensive and I think that fantasy as a genre is a really good way to allow for that separation between the reader and the story/lesson.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Exactly! The distance helps people let their guard down a bit

[@loxee4769]

I love this! I personally wouldn't go as far as to separate liminal and intrusion fantasy, because the lines between these are really vague and hard to tell. A more mainstream example for this category (liminal/intrusion) would be the Mortal Instruments Series by Cassandra Clare and basically (as you said) most paranormal romances and such. Great video, really enjoyed it!

[@bookslikewhoa]

Yeah, the line between the two gets very fuzzy-- it was fun researching this to figure out how to talk about all these subtle distinctions

[@KrisKrisKrissy]

I also think I tend more towards the middle of the fantastical spectrum, though I've noticed that the stories I'm drawn to also tend to skirt the line between sci-fi and fantasy. I like when there's a fantastical element to the story, but it's grounded enough that it could be science/physics we just don't fully understand.

[@matthewmorristobin9213]

Thank you. I believe Steampunk (even if it included zombies) is technically science fiction rather than fantasy, however. It would be more along a "What If?" alternate history timeline as opposed to magic, per se, since it purports to use technological innovations. For example, consider the bizarro alternate timelines and time travel that take place routinely in Star Trek TV shows and film.

[@debralavoie9095]

You did a fantastic job of explaining! Thanks :)

[@bookslikewhoa]

Thank you so much!!

[@foxedfolios]

Mara - I freaking love this video! I am a frustrated wannabe fantasy reader and your discussion and recs have really helped me to identify the sub-genres that might prove most fruitful for exploration. I feel as though I should enjoy fantasy as many of my favourite books/authors spend a lot of time in the magical realism space (but would be considered/shelved in bookshops as "literary fiction" - whateverTF that means...). But I have lost count of the number of fantasy books I have started and DNFed. The only fantasy author I've had reasonably good success with is Robin Hobb** . But now I have a clearer idea of where I might head to improve my hit rate. I think I'm in a similar place to you on the fantasy spectrum - definitely sounds as though liminal fantasies are my thing - but perhaps with different emphasis on the specifics of the story threads/emphasis. That said, the Hobb books are probably best classified as immersive fantasy...Anyway, informative and thoughtful content as usual! Great work.**Robin Hobb:- Liked the Farseer Trilogy (although books 2 and 3 felt unnecessarily long)- Loved the Liveship Trilogy- Loved the Tawny Man Trilogy- Found the Rainwild Trilogy deeply problematic on several fronts- Yet to read Fitz and the Fool books

[@vamps_rock]

Hi. Robin Hobb is highly praised by many here on BT that I've added all of her Realm of the Elderlings books to my TBR, and it's unusual to find dissent. What is it that you found problematic about the Rain Wild Trilogy?

[@foxedfolios]

Hi VR. Sorry for slow reply. First, I need to correct that accuracy of my original comment in that 'Rain Wild' is a quartet, not a trilogy! :-DUnlike Hobb's other books (those I have read at least), certain story threads across this group felt deliberately and explicitly didactic/moralising. While this isn't necessarily problematic per se, I felt the moral positioning and messaging became overbearing at times. While Hobb's other titles have explored various (social) issues, I never felt I was being told what was 'right' or 'wrong' through the narrative. Not so for 'Rain Wild'. In particular, some of the characterisation of sexuality and/or sexual choices made by women - and the consequences thereof - made me feel uncomfortable. But perhaps I was/am overthinking the text. Indeed, I think it only struck me as much as it did because I hadn't felt that way about any of the previous Hobb books I had read.So definitely give the quartet a whirl if you're interested! (Though I wouldn't start there.) And, as mentioned, I have greatly enjoyed the other titles I've read in this universe - Liveship Traders and The Tawny Man trilogies in particular.Happy Reading! :-)

[@bookslikewhoa]

I do hear a lot of praise for Robin Hobb and I want to get to them (I think it's a her? Maybe a he? Not sure of pronouns!) at some point. I appreciate the warning on the Rainwild Trilogy as I've not heard about that before... I think when I'm ready to crack into that oeuvre, I'm going to have to do a deep dive on the reviewers that I know love their work.

[@vamps_rock]

Thanks for the explanation.

[@BedtimeBookworm]

This was fascinating and I loved it! I’m definitely an immersive fantasy lover. But I also love genre bending books a lot. I actually haven’t heard these terms before, I’ve heard terms like high and low fantasy, urban fantasy, and grim dark fantasy. I love learning about stuff like this! As a Wheel of Time fan, I always wince a little when people talk about it in relation to LOTR. You’re not wrong in that the first books very much reads that way, but the world really opens up further into the series and it’s the most culturally diverse world I have ever read. But you really don’t get that until three to four books in, and it’s not fair to ask people to sink that much time into series. I love the series for its intense world building and complex plot but it’s definitely long and overly descriptive - not for everyone! I’m not trying to convince you to read it at all (from what you’ve said I agree that you wouldn’t like it) but I wanted to point out that the first book doesn’t really give you much idea of the scope of the world.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Glad you enjoyed! Yes, alas, Wheel of Time just wasn't for me. I do think I may just be one of those people who only had one big epic in that vein in them, and LOTR already took that slot. I totally feel you on the frustration of "but wait! IT GETS SO GOOD"... it's hard to ask people to wait 3+ books for things to heat up, but for fans, we're sitting there knowing how good it gets :)

[@vamps_rock]

Thanks so much for this breakdown and your opinions of different types of fantasy, it's given me lots of food for thought. I've watched a few others (male POV's) and they're just so judgemental regarding about anything they don't think is great, and that's of course mainly high/epic or immersive fantasy. So, it's saturday and I'm in the mood for a long essay so here goes... What did you mean by The Wayward Children series being very "meta"? And have you not read _any_ sci-fi? I hadn't until recently (because of booktube) and have more on my TBR now. Binti is a trilogy that is high on my priority list and has taken over The Wayward Children as that series has now been expanded which I am bummed about as now I'll have a longer wait until it's complete to read it. Big sigh. I have a question, a big question... does a fantasy world need to include magic? I sometimes would like to see a completley fictional world, not like ours, but without any magic. I've seen arguments for and against this, and as much as magic is a great addition to a story does it really have to be included to make it fantastical? And from there, are supernatural creatures (vampires, shifters, ghosts etc) _alone, ie without any particular powers_ considered as magic? And are the fae/fairies/elves, or even dragons etc considered supernatural or simply mythological? Turns out my tastes are a bit simillar to yours in that I much prefer the "middle ground" in fantasy, and although I'm not intimidated by long books, all those high fantasy tomes over 500 pages surely must get quite boring at points??? I have been reading PNR and UF for years, as I much prefer real world settings with a twist, I think because I like to feel as if it's _just_ out of reach. I'm not fussed on weather the supernatural exists openly or not, but they must have shifters to really speak to me, and I'm keen on witches and the fae with a waning interst in vampires. One exception to all that was the superb Allie Beckstrom series which although based on an almost technological magic system is actually very unmagical in most ways. Apart from a couple of the Narnia books when I was kid, I think the first fantasy I read was probably Anne Rice, both the Vampire Chronicles and The Mayfair Witches series (the first book of which is my no 1 read ever despite some troubling content), and I have come to realise that whilst I enjoy some steamy secenes in romance genre books, I hate them in what should be action-packed UF and have little patience for too many in PNR, but then like most genres there's tropes I dislike that appear frequently the never really put me off, only that annoy me to varying degrees. Despite all this though, in the last year or so due to booktube, I have realised that there is more immersive fantasy (as well as other genres I've never considered before) that does interest me, much of which is written by women, much of which is more "diverse" in style as well anything else (I hate the connotations of othering that word conjures TBH) than the old white men stuff that's considered real fantasy, much of which isn't just about a child/teenage coming of age/chosen one/war torn bloodied world etc etc etc! Needless to say, my wish TBR is not only never ending these days, but has also split into different genres for ease of reference lol! So with all the UF/PNR that you've read, have you tried some of the other big names? Jane Yellowrock, Mercy Thompson/Alpha and Omega, Sisters of the Moon, Women of the Otherworld, The Hollows, Elder Races, Night Huntress/various spin offs, The Others, Charley Davidson, Fever, Black Dagger Brotherhood, October Daye, All Souls Trilogy, Elemental Assassin, Cassie Palmer/Dorina Basarab? or the male written Iron Druid, Dresden Files, Peter Grant (aka Rivers of London)? Sorry to throw all these at you, but because you read so widely across genres, I'm really interested in if you've come across them, read them or not and why not, or any other general thoughts on some of them! In fact, would you consider making a seperate vid about some of the UF/PNR you've come across, read, chosen not to read, tropes you like/dislike or have general thoughts on? My parting shot is that I have no interest in reading Harry Potter. Does that make me a fake fantasy lover? I also have little interest in Tolkein, but may someday try The Hobbit...Anyway, of to finish the last book of The Themis Files and finally make a start on Kate Daniels, whoo-hoo!

[@bookslikewhoa]

When I say "meta" for the Wayward Children, I mean that it is self-consciously aware of the subgenre that it's in, and it is actively commenting on it back to the reader. Particularly in the first book, but really in all of them, it is commenting on how we think about portal fantasies and how different fantasy worlds relate to each other. The line between magic and speculative science is pretty fine, which is way SFF gets lumped together. That could spin off into a whole philosophical discussion about what magic even really means, and I'm afraid I don't have the brain cells for that at the moment... :) Yes, Booktube is dangerous for our TBRs! But it does expand our horizons Oh wow, that's a lot of series! :D I've read some or all of about half of those and have another quarter on my TBR. Last February I did a rec video for fantasy & paranormal romance, so that includes some of my thoughts on what I like in that genre. Eventually I might make a broader recommendation video And hey, not every book is for every reader, so no HP shaming here... the only person you're hurting is yourself ;)

[@moonstone-dreamer6512]

and portal fantasy i like that too of course

[@mb-po3dc]

Hey Mara when is project Marple starting? I loved project Poirot and I can't wait for Marple!

[@bookslikewhoa]

Mid January 2019! I'll put up an announcement video in November, probably, and then we'll get going in the new year :D

[@mb-po3dc]

@@bookslikewhoa I just can't wait, project Poirot was so good. Well then Project Marple will start around my birthday!

[@GothicWolfie7194]

my favourites mostly range from liminal to immersive fantasy, im not a big fan of portal and ive found that for me intrusive fantasies tend to get a bit samey and boring after a while.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Viva la liminal! I had a hard time with intrusion examples, but I think I've realized that I love the ones that I've found :)

[@artnunymiss2530]

Ocean at the end of the Lane is an intrusion without almost any world building.

[@readingtill2am628]

I started with Fantasy, then scifi but urban fantasy has been my favorite for years now. Love books that have more then just European and Roman magic/gods but they've been harder to find. Side note, have your read the books about Tolkien and Lewis called The Inklings?

[@bookslikewhoa]

I'm not sure I've read that one in particular, but when I was a Lewis obsessee, I definitely read several books about the Inklings- a fascinating friend group! :)

[@readingtill2am628]

@@bookslikewhoa I read it years ago. I loved the image of them sitting in the pub drinking beer and talking about character names, plot holes, and reading each other's manuscripts

[@moonstone-dreamer6512]

i love fantasy urban fantasy, high fantasy, paranormal romance

[@ge0metr1xx]

Love your video. Before Tolkien there was Robert E. Howard. His impact on fantasy is as great as Tolkien. Robert E. Howard was a much better writer his style reads better than most modern writers, he has indepth world building and Tolkien stole plot devices from REH. I highly recomend REH, the true father of modern fantasy 😛

[@bookslikewhoa]

Thanks for sharing

[@Mothballzzz]

I just found your channel and have a question (sorry if some digging through your videos would answer it): are you an academic? I realize this is an old video but I also have a comment: this video was helpful as a push to consider in greater detail what it is I do or don’t like in a particular genre and focus on a sub genre instead of constantly trying to read sth I should by now know I won’t like.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Glad this was helpful! And no, I decided not to get my PHD after my masters, so I am just a layperson :)

[@Mothballzzz]

bookslikewhoa good call. I did get mine but every day I wonder why 😂

[@nereidarede]

I always thought I didn't like fantasy at all, but in fact, I only don't like medieval fantasy (with dragons and all that stuff).

[@bookslikewhoa]

Yeah, it took me a long time to realize that was not my jam. Luckily the genre has something for every taste these days!

[@moonstone-dreamer6512]

i'm currently reading a fantasy called the black prism. its high fantasy but the magic system is really cool its based on colours or different shades of light, however you want to look at it

[@bookslikewhoa]

Nice! It's a cool idea to play with for the magic systems

[@BonnieDragonKat]

Charmed, Legacies, and Shadowhunters, and Harry Potter, and others would be intrusion Fantasy

[@misanthropistbookworm]

This was FASCINATING! :O I wanna learn more about genres and classifications and stuff! I'm definitely at the end of the spectrum, my favorite thing in the world is immersive fantasy and those are the kinds of books I prefer, more than any other. I like portal fantasy too, since, once the characters have gone to the other world, they are there and our world is kind of out of the way, but I'd say I move mostly between those two extremes and I'm not particularly interested in the medium parts of the spectrum, hahaha. That doesn't mean I won't read them at all, but I'm definitely more likely to love an immersive fantasy story than one of the intrusion ones, for instance. ^_^U But this was SUPER interesting, and now I wanna know more about the genre itself and all. I'll have to see what I can find online! Thank you for this very interesting video.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Oh yay, glad you enjoyed!! I'm such a nerd about this stuff, so I love dissecting all the nuances of genres & tropes :)

[@misanthropistbookworm]

@@bookslikewhoa Yes, it was great! It's the kind of thing I'd love to know more about, but I end up never looking up or looking it up and not finding anything really useful. That's why I love these type of videos you make! :) Thank you!

[@misanthropistbookworm]

@@bookslikewhoa Yes, it was great! It's the kind of thing I'd love to know more about, but I end up never looking up or looking it up and not finding anything really useful. That's why I love these type of videos you make! :) Thank you!

[@crisnice1]

as an european, this video is kinda sad haha but i get it. our history was overused. people are tired