Bowline on a bight break test

[@HowNOT2]

NOTE: this webbing has an MBS of 30kn and broke at 20kn because we did not use the appropriate weblock for it. It is a skinnier webbing to avoid high forces from wind on larger lines, and requires a proper weblock for it or spacers in a normal weblock. It will break at full strength if proper gear is used FYI. Check out our new store! hownot2.store/

[@hashiramasenju5001]

Can you do Bowline vs figure 8? So we can once and for all see how these two stack up!

[@grigorypostnikov9319]

Yeah! It would be interesting! Also, please check double bowline vs figure 8, its more common use of bowline knot in climbing

[@alexdematanecoursdekayak1030]

I agree.

[@steelonius]

Bowline on a bight is a great knot to test. I would love to see a couple varieties of bowline against a figure eight.

[@SirCharcoal]

Scott's locked bowline should be the standard, so try that one!

[@hashiramasenju5001]

@@SirCharcoal I see no reason to use anything else than a figure 8 simply because i find it idiotproof. And I know the guy tying the knot on my harness, he's an idiot.

[@flasher702]

You need a thermal camera bro. You keep telling us that things are hot, but you could show us. Just leave it mounted up and recording by default so you can splice the footage in as needed. Someone richer than me: send him a decent thermal camera. They actually aren't that expensive. My $400 phone has a FLIR camera in it.

[@alexdematanecoursdekayak1030]

This can be a stretch goal to get new Patreons.

[@ShurikB93]

My electrical engineering brain is so happy to see the graphs! Please make it a regular thing

[@HowNOT2]

That's the goal.... and imagine it while we show the slow motion!

[@GBR6000]

Yea it looks like better data than I have gotten from any of my university lab practicals.

[@jetseverschuren]

@@GBR6000 really? Most data I collect using a really primitive system with an Arduino looks about that good.

[@GBR6000]

@@jetseverschuren in our uni labs we use a really primitive system with an Arduino to. But remeber that he can probably zoom way in on those graphs becuse the polling rate is 10,000 Hz. Tho im only second year so I haven't done any of the serious reaserch yet.

[@jetseverschuren]

@@GBR6000 that sounds like it sucks. I thought labs used something like a LabJack, NI DAQ or CompactRio.

[@timzlow]

Thanks Ryan. Really appreciate the effort. But it'd be interesting to see which variant of Bowline holds better. I've been climbing with bowline on the bight for more than 15 years and I love the knot.

[@seanisaac4925]

Would love to see the bowline on a bight pulled within the double loop to mimic how it is used for fixed-point lead belays and compare that to the double loop figure-eight (aka bunny ear figure-eight)

[@steelonius]

Second that.

[@teddyruxpin3811]

I really like the graphs! By the way, in case anyone is wondering, the conversion of Kilonewtont to Kilonewton is 1:1. A Kilonewtont is just another unit of force that's super equal to the standard metric Kilonewton. So 3 kilonewtonts equals 3 kilonewtons. :p Seriously though, great charts and visualization of the data. Thnaks :)

[@windriver2363]

That knot is most commonly called a bowline on a bight. Sometimes also called a retraced bowline, same knot different tying method, and used to tie in to a climbing rope.

[@trout4bait549]

Yes, bowline on a bight - I believe John Bachar called it the atomic knot, and advocated it to attach a climber to a belay when leapfrogging leads. Like someone else mentioned I have to wonder if the knot sliding tight and constricting on the carabiner was a function of the ultra-slippery dyneema, as I have never seen a bowline close on itself (in tree work, or marine use - with some incredibly high loads). I'm looking forward to seeing drop tests of the bowline (as a tie-in) with Yosemite finish, and the bowling on a bight (as used to attach oneself to a pair of bolts/belay), using regular climbing rope.

[@stevenallen512]

I work in entertainment partially as a rigger and use bowlines ALL THE TIME (however rarely on a bight). Such an awesome knot and I've literally used it to lift loads over a ton on rare occasion (and rarely not with rope). My first exposure to the knot however was sailing as a child. The bowline and clove hitch are the most used knots in entertainment rigging, however we also use many knots from the climbing world as well. In my experience its a very useful knot, easy to untie after being loaded and able to hold a reasonable load. OF course we us a 50% derate factor for bowlines however.

[@steelonius]

I'm super interested in this too! A friend actually taught me to tie into the rope using a bowline on a bight. You'd tie in with a bowline and then leave significant enough tail to retrace the knot through the tie-in-loops and the outcome is the same as a bowline on a bight. People are always critical but if it's good enough for an anchor tie-in then it should be good enough on the harness.

[@bandana_girl6507]

I have seen tons of bowlines close on themselves but specifically on a set of four ropes that were perhaps the slipperiest that I've ever worked with and that we would normally have to use three or four half hitches to keep a bowline from untying itself. It was a pain to tie knots in, but the slipperiness did mean we could get around not having pulleys and it slid better when you had to push it across HVAC ducts.

[@jason.b896]

I would love to see a regular bowline. I've gotten them highly loaded hundreds of times and never seen them behave like that... It was never with webbing though.

[@danielegerussi7453]

17 kn in the second test is just a bug i think... great videobtw as always, i like these quick ones

[@HowNOT2]

Yea, I got to figure out why it spiked liked that.

[@Ammoniummetavanadate]

@@HowNOT2 Your load cell is probably a wheatstone bridge meaning that is it very sensitive to radio frequency interference. If your cell phone went off near it you could see a spike.

[@jetseverschuren]

@@Ammoniummetavanadate yes, it's a wheatstone bridge, but any proper load cell driver/interface has a low pass filter. For 10kHz, that's about a 5kHz cutoff, which is way higher than any rf from phones.

[@pentachronic]

@@HowNOT2 It might actually be a genuine reading. Stiction and slippage as the webbing sticks to itself due to heat.

[@LaurentiuAnghel]

From a climber's point of view it would be interesting to have the loop of a bowline on a bight tested, because this is how it's used in this setup: www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/belaying-the-leader-with-a-fixed-point-belay

[@Luke00722]

Yes please test this. Haven’t been able to find the cross load strength of a double bowline anywhere online, if anyones has please link it

[@davidclarke4314]

I have been lead climbing on a bowline follow through (bowline on a bight) for years. I would love to see this go head to head with figure 8 on dynamic climbing rope.

[@Sanderbreur]

Following page 41 off on rope that is indeed a correct bowline on a bight. Probably the second measurement was not 17 kN, but noise due to those little spikes on the actual signal. I do not know why, but from a physicist who reads graphs on a daily basis that did not seem correct. There’s no physical reason why it would go down and up in force so fast.

[@v0hero691]

This is correct Id surmise. I was going to say otherwise, but realized I was looking at the "2nd" test marked in the video timeline not the whacky graph that spiked at 17kN.

[@alexdematanecoursdekayak1030]

TESTING IDEAS (some might already been done, I just don't know where to look to find them) Webbing: bowline Vs water knot Rope: Bowline Vs figure '8' Vs Alpine butterfly Vs directional '8' I'm a whitewater rescue instructor and I would love to see theses test results!!! Thank you so much for theses video, I always thumbs up before the intro is finish. Alex from Québec

[@annquach6613]

Hey, great work. I love your setup for testing loads. In my field of electrical trades, we have a bunch of hearsay on the best way to prepare wire pull heads, for when we pull conductors through pipe. I was wondering if you were ever interested to make such videos

[@RobertSzasz]

If you could add displacement measurement it would be an Awesome test platform.

[@hopelesswanderer6891]

New load cell looks sick! Can’t wait to see what it can do with the drop tower

[@pterodaxx]

Requesting you test the double dragon knot.

[@nicolaibatstad6881]

Please try different bowlines when you do the rope bowline test. Mark Gommers has a great paper on bowlines on Paci's website (link in comment) where he presents an analysis of bowlines and variants that he deems inherently secure for lead climbing and other climbing purposes. I use them for climbing purposes and looking forward for your next bowline test with them hopefully starring.

[@nicolaibatstad6881]

www.paci.com.au/knots.php zenandtheartofclimbing.com/tying-bowline/

[@cobraclarke203]

Thanks

[@stevebarratt888]

I'd be super interested to see figure 8 bunny ears and bowline on a bight with just one of the loops clipped to a single anchor point to see how it works in a partial anchor failure

[@Macks_Mustermann]

Man this new load cell makes me exited about the drop tower!

[@patrickstrasser-mikhail6873]

Would be super interesting to see force versus distance/displacement! On dynamic ropes, you should see much more expansion before they break than on static material. But the really important thing is that the ropes loose "stretch" when loaded heavily before they break. This will not return when you unload them, so they are possibly invisibly damaged. You can even do load-unload cycles, which gives you more insight into the hysteresis behaviour, second drops, lost elasticity etc. As force times distance gives energy, you can also do some calculation on how much falling load (drop distance -> speed, weight) a rope can dissipate. You have a droptower soon, right?

[@LoneVanMan]

Thanks Ryan. Can you turn up your voice on the video? I can hardly hear you on my phone. Thanks!!

[@mathias5618]

This bowline on a sewn loop is actually used a lot in european style multipitching as a master point

[@Chitario]

The bowline how you do it is unsafe for climbing. There is a better one, don't know how you would call it in english though. Search for "Doppelter Bulin", thats what its called in german. It is basically a normal bowline where the short end gets threaded through the harness a second time and followed back just like a figure 8. So you would have 2 loops in your harness and all the strands double, except for the bowline typical single loop. Besides the figure-8, this is the only other recommended safe knot for tying in Other variants such as the yosemite finish or Bowline 1.5, have previously failed and killed people. In rare cases they can open when side-loaded, also when they rub on rock, they can untie themselves a bit, making the whole thing unsafe

[@g0rth0rTBL]

So glad KZbin recommended me your channel. You should test some via ferrata gear once the drop tower is ready!

[@firsttodothat375]

Nice video. A promising new start. Slow motion and graphs are a great way to analyse the breaking point. Thanks Ryan.

[@Estereos]

as an idea to try. may be you can simulate a shock impact by pulling two ropes: one is little shorter and weaker, second little longer and stronger. then when short/weak rope brakes you will have a shock impact on strong rope.

[@Ammoniummetavanadate]

This set-up is amazing. So much useful information with a time series like this, especially for failure of metal items.

[@cranebeg]

Very interesting, now I need to see the one on Alpine Butterfly on my right 👉👍 Just an observation, I notice you always say "sewn" like sow-en 😁

[@mainemade300]

Wrong I've never tied a byline know like that ,an I've tie them on a daily basis,in my profession,commercial fisherman

[@partykrew666]

This is so sick. Really the next logical step for this channel. Super stoked to see what you have in store for us and really appreciate all you're contributing to our community!

[@xchinvanderlinden]

Does your load cell now have enough resolution to correlate the little force peaks with individual strands breaking? Super cool

[@marcushofmann1246]

So hard to follow this after two beers! xD But nice video for sure

[@mr34]

Please do this test again with rope and also the Fusion knot. Great work.

[@adventureswithfrodo2721]

you need to test this on just a single strand, as you did but with new webbing. The double strands of the loop when you tie the bowland on a bite is acting different then when you tie the bowland on a single strand. So you wonder what the difference is is that it is single vs double strand.

[@Ataraxia_Atom]

Thank you for your contribution Ryan. We truly appreciate it.

[@06racing]

Screen Record the graph and put it in the corner of the breaking shot.

[@didim.7217]

In the link is a drop rope test (not standard test): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHasdaSreZetiqs

[@bjornpeck268]

Hi! Wish you would also test the loop itself as it is often seen used as master point, when connecting two bolts. I guess the thought is that the loop should be really strong as it is has double strands. (Will it also slip and widen under load?). Thanks for so much interesting info!

[@emmen0]

Upvote on this! Would really like to see this as it is used a lot lately in the European (alpine) climbing world

[@foreststroble748]

Man is it weird that i want to do some drops off the tower once its done lol

[@stephendosson246]

Can you even do a straight up bowline that is not on a bight?

[@TheMalleges]

I'm getting Walter Siebert vibes. Great Uprades to Slacksnap. Keep the good work up! Now i'm even more hyped for the drop tower. Thank you for the great content

[@2526ac]

Graphs of failure happening, I like a lot

[@bm669]

Not a criticism just wondering why you dont wear PPE when working with such high loads?

[@GBR6000]

I believe that he generaly stands well back when acctualy runing the machine and if he is testing something metal usualy behind something.

[@therupi]

Hello Ryan, New tools that seem promising ;) Thanks for all your work on these subjects! FYI, the DPMC (the french « authority » regarding rope access industry) issued a warning a few years ago about this knot, saying that "in a specific configuration, one of the two loops can [undo itself](?) with a load of 100daN" (this is a on-the-fly translation, i'm not completely sure of what I did… The original sentence is "Dans une configuration particulière, l’une des 2 ganses de ce nœud peut se défaire sous une charge de 100 daN.").

[@jetseverschuren]

Can you post a link? I can't find anything about it (probably using the wrong search terms).

[@therupi]

@@jetseverschuren A demo video is available on the FFSpeleo (French caving organization) here: efs.ffspeleo.fr/images/chaise_double.mp4 And the warning issued by DPMC is on this page: www.cqpcordiste.fr/retour-technique.asp (they dont have a direct link to this specific warning…)

[@jetseverschuren]

@@therupi I just watched that video. They seem to pull the loops sideways. It's like using a figure 8 (knot) for dual ropes, it's not designed to handle load in that way/direction.

[@Peppymoke]

Could you do tests on the double dragon loop?

[@Govanification]

Hey Ryan! I'd love to see you do some testing with the bowline on a bight tied in regular sewn tubular slings, as well as the bunny ears figure 8 tied in rope, but cut the critical strand on both and see when it fails. People use the bowline on a bight as their masterpoint for some bolted anchors but my understanding is that it's not truly redundant as there is only 1 strand holding the knot together.

[@alwnz3250]

Are flat straps a good idea to knot at all?

[@jignaciogarces]

Could you test this used as an anchor

[@Diclofenac_]

Spider states it holds 31kN in a (30mm?) weblock. Thats scary - is it because your weblock has way smaller diameter?

[@airkaty_]

I really would love to know which knot is best for aerial silks! I’m in Denver

[@nunyabizness6734]

I had always thought that a bowline on webbing was not advised as the structure of webbing doesn't allow the forces to be absorbed evenly through the material... ie, the knot pinches itself creating a weak spot. A proper bowline with a proper rope will untie easily even after several tons worth of load (assuming ther rope is rated for that). I had as 15:1 pulley system I was using to remove a giant tree root ball. The line stretched and ultimately failed. The bowline that was used to secure ther line to the tree was the only knot that came undone. everything else had to be cut. On the plus side, I did manage to loosen several fence posts, used as anchors for redirects, set in concrete that were coming out later that week anyway. Saved me some work on that end.

[@jimmydemarco6987]

I would love to see a video where you strength test a standard bowline vs a cowboy bowline. There's no scientific research on this anywhere and I feel like it would be super beneficial to see! Maybe even throw in a bowline with a yosemite finish for more fun.

[@davidhalgren5884]

Have you looked into DTS instrumentation? Might be something you might be able to climb with.

[@nathankenny7454]

Have you tested fixe’s PLX expansion bolts? The ones with threaded rods. Are they similar to the triplex?

[@shinobyslack]

I got only 25kN on sewing loop

[@georgebridgewater2573]

Idea for the drop tower: Does the rubber keeper in quick draws reduce the peak load compared to, for example, alpine draws?

[@smartyax11111]

My recommendations really be wacky but I ain’t complaining

[@ben1910]

Love seeing the graphic hope you have a way to protect the computer from the flying metal work

[@nicholaspotter3037]

I love how you showed the graph at the same time as the breaking clip.

[@JacobJ265]

The spikes at the top of the graph when it gets closer to peak before it breaks is when the webbing starts to tear. You can hear it.

[@jamesriddle8986]

"knot" how i tie a bowline, but is how i pronouce it. your loop wont slip like that in a bowline i wish i could leave a picture

[@Diclofenac_]

Should test it with Polyamid and Polyester webbing too!

[@shoubamzlibap]

Wow, so cool that you got temporal resolution now!

[@jeanmorin3247]

Super interesting!

[@flasher702]

So, this was a pretty well put together clip with some good info. Streamlining your process so you can make good enough videos with valuable content is way better than "production quality". Try to avoid short easy videos that are just "this is what I'm up to and I don't have any real information for you yet", but this one was pretty good. We don't need videos about what you are up to. We have all of your old videos and the entire rest of the internet to keep us entertained until your next video is ready. I can't freaking wait for the drop tower! Every time you post a video that isn't the drop tower I am disappointed!

[@jumpmaniaccrazy]

Super cool! Looking forward to more. :)

[@louislax14]

Thank you Ryan, can't wait for those drop test comparisons!!

[@leavventuredelchechin4199]

awesome video, keep going! waiting for drop tower man !!

[@felipegarcia05189]

So cool thanks

[@OwThatsMyEye]

I was actually just looking into the sample rates of the other load cells you use this morning lol

[@zakklillie1880]

I love all the info you can get out! It’s amazing to see these results.

[@noahbeek6307]

Graph in the brake tests will be so awesome!!

[@ajkurp5919]

Stud!

[@mitchellbarnow1709]

This episode was super terrific, Ryan! I wish that you didn’t have to work in the Central Valley where it’s hot enough to grow fruits and vegetables to feed the world 🗺! Thank you so much 😊 I really do appreciate what you’ve devoted your life to doing.

[@Valkratos88]

I've been following you from Italy for a few months now, I really appreciate the work you do, and the passion you put into it. Do you think you can test a very cheap rope vs expensive one? And I' m very courious if the drop tower will reveal some new facts, or bust some miths. Go on!

[@jfo738]

Please test a water knot in webbing.

[@thatdude3943]

I don't know that I'd call that a bowline. looks kinda like one, but not what you'd get tying a single strand.

[@seaotter52]

Bowline on a bight is different looking. Useful in rope.

[@jetseverschuren]

That's how a bowline looks when you follow it back, like what you with a figure 8.

[@bobcanish]

Love the graphs!!!

[@aries_9130]

Love the new graphs!

[@ConRoen]

Not to be a jerk but I wouldn't call that a bowline. A bowline should be a static loop. I've rigged 2000lb logs out of trees on bowlines and never seen one tighten up like that.(test 1). I'm a tree climber/arborist I regularly climb on bowlines when doing base anchors for a little extra security I use the Yosemite finish. I'm exited to see the drop tower tests

[@JackBringloe]

It is a bowline-on-a-bight, a midline knot with two static loops, and he tied it correctly. I think the result is just down to the material: super high modulus (makes a Sampson bull rope look like a bungie cord) and extremely slippery: a worst case scenario for any bowline.

[@ConRoen]

@@JackBringloe yeah after looking at it a bit harder it looks correct but I just don't know why he would do a bowline-on-a-bight rather than a regular bowline seems like it would (super ez to mess up a BoaB vs a regular bowline). I don't have much experience with webbing as I have no real use for it in my line of work. I got some 7/8" Notch kraken rigging line a while ago that I did some "testing" with it where dropped a 2000lb log about 5 ft with a running bowline as the only knot and it held just fine. maybe its got something to do with the slow pull as well.

[@DaOndee]

@@ConRoen Considering the channel's background I think the knot choice comes from climbing. In the Alps, we use this loop for multi pitch anchors. It's becoming more popular in the US lately.

[@JackBringloe]

@@DaOndee It has been popular with climbers in the US for a long time for directly connecting the climbing line to a two bolt anchor. It is being supplanted in that role by the so-called bunny ears knot. These days American climbers would typically use a knotted quad at such an anchor to simplify changeovers and (knock on wood) self rescue situations

[@lordofnothing.]

nice. thank you ♥

[@bman6065]

Doing a break test with a bowline on webbing is just weird. Not really the correct application of a bowline or webbing by mixing the two.

[@gravelman5789]

Bowline on Ebay Crap Rope??? 😄😄😄😄

[@melvinthor5855]

A knot like this is not suitable for a strap/webbing. No test needed.

[@sdcofer52]

That doesn't look like a bowline to me. I sail and have been tying bowlines since I was a kid and they don't slip. Learn to tie it first.

[@FlatOutFE]

That's because you have never made one in the middle of a rope on a bight.

[@christopherporto3902]

There are hundreds of variants of a bowline. I sail and climb and I've found some variants are way more useful in climbing than in sailing. The method shown here is one of several correct ways to tie the variant commonly called a bowline on a bight which is used to make a secure loop in the middle of a rope instead of the end of the rope.

[@DaOndee]

That's not how it would be loaded in a multipitch climbing scenario.

[@Chitario]

This is how it would be loaded in a sport climbing fall. When side-loading a regular bowline, it starts to slip and could eventually fail.