Brian Holdsworth on Tradition: Truthful history of pre-Vatican II theology or False Narratives?

[@patrickrex6230]

Avery Dulles was a Cardinal of the Church, elevated by John Paul II. Also visited personally by Pope Benedict on his deathbed.

[@Charlie_The_Catholic-American]

Thank you for reminding fellow Catholics of the Papal approval of Avery Dulles! Amen

[@Hope_Boat]

Orthodox here. Rome has innovated so much you have no idea how far you are to true tradition. Here is a small example. You did you sign of the cross at the beginning of the video. Do you think the way you did it is traditional? Did the first Christians did it the same way? Did even the medieval Western Christians did it that way? Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) explained: "The sign of the cross is made with three fingers, because the signing is done together with the invocation of the Trinity. [...] This is how it is done: from above to below, and from the right to the left, because Christ descended from the heavens to the earth.'' Yes they did the sign of the cross as we orthodox still do it. That's preserving tradition. Kyrie eleison ☦️

[@TheZealotsDen]

As a Catholic i appreciate these corrections. Orthodox also has some hold ups, for example you guus aren't united as one mind body and spirit as Jesus wants us to be . I figure cayholic church orthodox church or bust. Lets pray for our unification

[@Hope_Boat]

@@TheZealotsDen I am afraid you are projecting your system on us : the orthodox Church is united by the faith, not by the hierarchy. We are not submitted to the clergy. They serve us. So their disunion is their problem and does not affect the Church (ordinary people) As a Greek I am in communion with my Russian or Bulgarian or Serbian or Ukrainian brothers. I don't care who's not talking to whom. As Christ said the first among us are like the servants who wash the feet of the guests before they can enter the house of they masters. As a guest in the house of God I don't care about the disputes between the servants. Not saying that in an arrogant manner though. This was the teaching of the Church since Christ. You Catholics have been told to submit to your servants and think that was always the case.

[@TheLeonhamm]

Very nearly. Except that what you present is .. custom .. not Tradition. Making the Sign of the Cross, in blessing, is of Sacred Tradition .. the manner of doing so is custom; both have a meaning and purpose in the life of the Church (aka Jesus Christ, with His Bride) but they are not quite the same. God bless. ;o)

[@Charlie_The_Catholic-American]

Thank you . . . I am not sure I follow completely . . .when I go to do Holy Hour I am slow and perhaps overly pious. . . when I go to the Melkite Church I try to get back to that part of my Catholic heritage . . . I'll reflect on your comment further however . . . to see how it applies here . . .St. Maximus the Confessor -- pray for us.

[@Hope_Boat]

@@TheLeonhamm my point was the illusion of modern Roman Catholic faithful who are pushed to believe that their traditions and customs are from antiquity when they are not. It was just an example. I don't want to enter in a Theological debate.

[@toddcarver1430]

God bless you, CtCA. We're in lonely, frustrating territory between the parrots of "Vatican II is bad" and "Jesus loves you, do whatever you want". I'm more discouraged with the former. You'd think that outrage was a virtue. What makes me shutter is the thought of what Our Lord thinking. This is not sports or politics, this is SALVATION. Our Lord's Church. Where does it say "blessed are those who sew discord in my Church, for theirs is...". Keep doing what you are doing, for blessed are the peacemakers....

[@TheLeonhamm]

A good effort to help Mr Holdsworth understand what you are both presenting .. perspectives on Church History, its personalities, peculiarities, and - principles (for understanding, explaining, etc, the issues discussed). Fine, but Mr Holdsworth - from what I recall - placed himself as a questioner as well and a presenter; was the New Theology faithful to the Old ..? .. as these theologians (of the new school of thought) .. assumed and asserted that they were. Yves Congar and Henri De Lubac were staggeringly erudite scholars, especially of Aquinas - in the original source material, and through to the sources he used - and they were insightful in presenting what Aquinas seems to have meant; this truth, however, is itself misleading .. for the basic premise of the New Theology was (and is) that the Old Theology* is (and was) materially deficient or constitutionally insufficient to deal with = our times (the 19th century, and such). Sullivan, Murray, and Dulles started from where De Lubac and Congar had already reached, and thus, in turn, whence Rahner, von Balthassar, and Schillebeeckx went, and whither Wojtyla, Kueng and Ratzinger would thereafter proceed. For instance, the ecclesiology affirmed, to begin with, was still very much 'Mysticii Corporis' .. but swiftly this was found to be lacking to deal those now long-ago days of - the 'times' - faced by the Second Vatican Council (though Mysticii Corporis was, notwithstanding, still the bedrock reference point of the texts actually produced for the Fathers' approval). So far as I could follow Mr Holdworth's grappling with this complexity, he - rightly - pointed out that the New Theology had become in-crowd archaeologising or primativism (as a means to by-pass the Mediaevalism and Manualism of the Old Theology) .. old relic = no good, older date = better, oldest fossil = best; where he went wrong, as far as I can see, is - as you seem to point out - a matter of misunderstanding (or poorly applying) GK Chesterton's 'Democracy of the Dead' typology; the dead still have a living voice in the Church (aka Jesus Christ, Himself, in Person, at One with His Bride = Mysticii Corporis ecclesiological stuff), but that voice does not trump the voice of the livng Magisterium .. Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o) * This btw was and is the reason that the Old Order of the Sacraments, especially the Divine Liturgy, can have no place in the ordinary parochial provision of the .. New Order. 'Traditionis Custodes' affirmed this disjuncture with full disiplinary force, overruling efforts to advance a hemeneutic of continuity .. piece of dialectic. The Older is still hierarchical, as a community, as much as the New Order was communitarian (with a hierarchy .. ? ..)

[@Charlie_The_Catholic-American]

What do you make of Holdsworth's false teaching that the so called modernist like the great Pope Benedict XVI rejected Bonaventure when this alleged modernist -- the future Pope Benedict did nothing other than make sure St. Bonaventure help shape the Constitution on Divine Revelation -- all false narratives must be addressed in the truth and in the light as too much is at stake -- if you want a book club on chesterton -- let Holdsworth have at it - but I cannot sit back and let such false narratives serve as fake news of Vatican II without doing something to oppose all false narratives that go to the heart of Vatican II -- thank you for your thoughtfulness . . . .

[@TheLeonhamm]

@@Charlie_The_Catholic-American 'I cannot sit back and let such false narratives serve as fake news of Vatican II without doing something to oppose all false narratives that go to the heart of Vatican II' Well said that man. I agree wholeheartedly. Though, as I recall, Papa Ratzinger noted his own 'modernist' moments - not least at work on the Second Vatican Council - and repented of such influences seemingly set free there, but seen most vigorously in the spirit of '68 revolutionary rebellion aka the Media Council (the reality, not a myth). As a youngster at the time, I was, naturally enough, more interested in knowing if Chubby Checker had appeared on the TV variety show .. yet .. (and delighted I had not missed Mister Twister). Yet even as a Duffle Coat wearing CND supporting Peter, Paul and Mary liking child of the times, I realised that the media hype was not presenting the slow Propaganda Fide type of output at all well .. but all more or less as the most progressive periti directed. I suspect Mr Holdsworth was trying to capture that ethereal - though all too materially manifested - spirit; we were, after all, already deeply embued with the Spirit of Modernism, not least our pastors; Brian's point - I think, if delivered much more directly (and therefore bordering on the tendentious, and linked to some pertinacious .. and still rather popular .. points of view). God bless. ;o)

[@BrianHoldsworth]

You seem to be replying to a criticism of Vatican II that I did not make. My video isn't about Vatican II and I never mention it. If false narratives are a problem, that seems like a big one. Further, you speak as though you don't like to use your channel as an outlet for criticizing others, yet the first 4 videos I see are criticisms about Me, Taylor Marshall, Bishop Strickland, Cardinal Burke, and "Radical Traditionalists". Seems like a pattern if you ask me.