Brian Wilson on Pet Sounds vs SMiLE

From the Beautiful Dreamer DVD with David Leaf.

[@scherrer4715]

As a classical musician: Smile (Or rather 'The Smile Sessions') is much more musically advanced, quite contrapuntal, it's like you're listening to a classical music masterpiece. But Pet Sounds is a much more spiritual and emotional experience, Smile is perhaps the most progressive pop album in terms of music theory, but its atmosphere and feeling were childish, so Its psychedelic, childish, avant-garde aspects are very individual and do not make the experience suitable for everyone. Pet Sounds is one of the best pop music albums, even though it has artistic touches, it is more like a pop album, perhaps like Schubert's lieds, very refined and brilliant in a different way. But artistically and intellectually, Smile is in a different category. When I listen to Smile, it is as if I hear Bach's polyphony and spirituality, Mozart's presentation of complexity with simple and childlike naivety, Gershwin's classical-American pop/jazz combination and the experimental spirit of the 1960s (such as Cage, Stockhausen, Boulez, Ligeti), rhythmically, it is also quite creative, reminding even Stravinsky. This combination is very creative, complex and exciting. Smile is a much more detailed, experimental, rich, unexpected, truly progressive album ('m not talking about the "genre" progressive here, most prog albums present us with a false progressiveism with overly extended repetitions). Both Pet Sounds and Smile are among my favorite albums; But while listening to Smile, I get a pleasure equivalent to high-level classical music. Pet Sounds, on the other hand, is a terrific and flawless pop album with an artistic and visionary touch. Pet Sounds appeals to everyone with its more emotional, melancholic and risk-free structure -this is not a criticism-. But I think it is necessary to know classical music and jazz to fully understand Smile's capacity. Pet Sounds may be more "beautiful", but I think Smile would be the most progressive album in the history of popular music, because even its remnants are. Unfortunately, in order for a comprehensive album like Smile to be completed and released, the fragile Brian needed full support. The record company, sales, his father, other Beach Boys members (being a family group is also a problem), and other musicians such as Jimi Hendrix also turned against Brian. The Beatles were much luckier in this regard; great talent like Lennon and Paul together (bonus Harrison!) overall much more harmonious in every sense -in their golden age-, moreover, they were much more comfortable (fans, company, members were more ready for experimentation), and they had a great producer like George Martin behind them to help them when they needed it. Brian didn't have that much support, he was exposed to too many dissenting voices and Brian's perfectionism also set his expectations very high. Added to the fact that drugs create various problems in people with a genetic predisposition, the collapse was inevitable. I can understand Brian's difficult situation and giving up.

[@FeelFlows409]

@scherrer4715 Great post! What you wrote in your first two paragraphs is spot on as far as how I view Smile vs Pet Sounds. Pet Sounds is more accessible, and both Pet Sounds and Smile are my favorite albums ever, but musically-speaking Smile is on another level.

[@austinmartens8662]

Speaking nothing but facts

[@vampyros1]

@scherrer4715 Curious as to what “pop music” define as, to you?

[@peterl3282]

I don't often listen to Pet Sounds but when I put on "Our Prayer", I have to play SMiLE all the way through. It is one glorious piece to me.

[@iAmNovaFilms]

Agree

[@pancakelegend7826]

Both albums are a 10 to me, but I do like SMiLE more.

[@yourmother3207]

Would have been nuts to see what smile would have looked like if brian finished his vision when he was going nuts in the 60s- I have a feeling even he didn't know exactly how the end result would be. I'm beyond grateful he and his band finished it in the 2000s and we have a bunch of tapes of the original recordings though. Still- to hear what it would have been like in the 60s... man...

[@claudevandog]

Brian has to be the most humble guy around to write one of the greatest albums of all time and give it a 4/10

[@muchanadziko6378]

he didn't mean that in general. But as a comparison between the two

[@aryavart296]

@@muchanadziko6378 It's like a 4 if you compare it with Beethoven

[@muchanadziko6378]

@@aryavart296 you think that's what he meant?

[@ghardway]

@@muchanadziko6378is a is a great place

[@ghardway]

Úr er að o7

[@doylelacrua]

I'm sure he loves talking about this for 50+ years.

[@utub1473]

Hell maybe he does, I don’t know, I’m not Brian Wilson.

[@hadinasrallah8928]

Yeah poor guy him and paul mccartney usually get terrible interviewers asking the same questions “how did you write let it be/yesterday” “did you know pet sounds inspired the beatles to do sgt.peppers etc?!?!” Its so mind numbing there’s this great clip of that being said to brian and he responds in a funny ironic tone saying something like “oh really? I never knew that”

[@Gabriel2oh6]

To be fair, this interview was nearly right after he had finished Smile so he’s answering these questions from a completely different perspective and with new confidence. These same questions, Brian probably would have given a completely different answer and deflected if you had asked him in 1974.

[@ElCameronDormido]

Smile is on another level above just about any other album out there

[@KRAZEEIZATION]

I don’t know what Smile is all about but it’s one of the best and most musically addictive albums I’ve ever heard!

[@MikeGervasi]

He's right. Pet Sounds is a classic but Smile is another level. Had it been released it would have blown Pepper away.

[@oranjuly]

Absolutely disagree. Musically, it was scattered. The concept didn’t make sense. And The Beach Boys were culturally less exciting than the Beatles. They lacked the sex appeal and mystique of the Fabs. That said, Smile is still incredible and Brian’s most adventurous, complicated, and misunderstood work. But it wouldn’t have blown away Pepper.

[@iAmNovaFilms]

@@oranjuly I agree that it might not have necessarily blow Pepper out of the water commercially for the reasons you listed But I think if it were finished and released it would’ve made a huge impact the same way Pet Sounds did

[@bolder2009]

If Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane had been included in Peppers as they were meant to be, it would have taken it up a notch. Amazing to consider that it could have been even better. And we don't know how Smile might have inspired the next Beatles album after Pepper's. A lot of What ifs.

[@humphreybogart6663]

​@@bolder2009I'll see your Penny and Strawberry and raise you Good Vibrations not put out as a single and where it should have been instead. Brian's biggest mistake, previewing Surfs Up. Like an unfinished cake that got ruined by opening the door. A shame.

[@crowkid5553]

I don't think it would've blown away sgt peppers and revolver but it would've given tbe beach boys an extra notch of respect they deserve

[@josephharnett5075]

Thank You Brian for Both Albums We all wonder what Smile could have been if finished in 1967

[@jaggass]

He looked healthy and lucid here.

[@dmer-zy3rb]

healthy? i would say he looks downright sloppy here.

[@torinshaw1084]

No way Brian gave the greatest album I’ve ever heard a 4/10.

[@evanwright9016]

He just finished 'SMiLE' as it begat the genesis of what eventually became his struggles with schizoaffective disorder. Having that completed was conquering the source of his demons and finding a way to beat them at their own game. That and recency bias.

[@Eyyoh755]

Both albums are equal masterpieces.

[@magneto7930]

Smile was more brilliant in its unfinished form than any finished piece of music!

[@BrendanJSmith]

The cancelation of SMiLE in 1967 is still one of the greatest losses in entertainment history.

[@JonasEurich]

It’s almost like Aristotle’s lost 2nd book in the poetics … we‘ll never know fully what it would’ve been

[@NoNameNo.5]

GOD BLESS BRIAN WILSON

[@HansonZhang-ri2lj]

If Pet Sounds is only a 4, imagine what SMiLE would be like if it was released properly.

[@mackymusic673]

Wow! Smile is definitely a wider ranged album. Pet Sounds is as amazing, but I agree. Smile is other worldly in sound and creativity.

[@robertsteinberger5667]

I thought I was one of the few who likes Smile much more than Pet sounds....

[@FeelFlows409]

There are actually a lot of us out there who prefer it to Pet Sounds, although preferring Pet Sounds is still far more common among most people. Pet Sounds connects with people on an emotional level far better than Smile, but Smile is the more interesting and inventive work overall, musically speaking. Personally I love and never get tired of listening to either album, but I do vastly prefer Smile overall and consider it to be the stronger work of the two.

[@robertsteinberger5667]

@@FeelFlows409 I also like it because you can make your own version of it, choose the best version of wonderful and heroes and villains. And for me surf's up should begin with an orchestral intro.....

[@magneto7930]

I like it more than Pet Sounds for the same reasons that Brian mentioned. The only difference is, I would have given Pet Sounds a 10, Smile goes way off the scale!

[@robertsteinberger5667]

@@magneto7930 great to see im not the only one, I agree that pet sounds goes off the scale, its the sgt peppers that actually delivers. Just make sure you have the right versions of songs, wonderful, heroes and villains cantina section, surfs up with instrumental intro......

[@Zak_Edington]

Yeah Animal Collective 100% loves Brian Wilson

[@dirtylemon3379]

I also like Smiley Smile. Psychedelic doo-wop.

[@sydglover4842]

Me too

[@user-wl1ke9sf3k]

目がうるうるしてて可愛い

[@jerrymeadows5059]

When I first heard Smile I was both blown away and instantly aware that Brian had been working on it going back to Smiley Smile and Sunflower. I'd give Pet Sounds a 9, but I agree with Brian that Smile is a ten.

[@dustyandsneezing]

I’d give Smile and Pet Sounds a 10 since Smile was the coolest album to be produced after Pet Sounds. It’s like a late night album

[@Skizze37]

I wonder what his favorite album is

[@kepler22b74]

I think Smile is better because I can whistle the whole album through and never run into a dull melody or sing a lyric I don’t like.

[@notanotherjamesmurphy5574]

You heard the man.

[@RyGuyLikesFrenchFry]

Dramatic zoom

[@janhommer]

If only they'd finished "Smile" back in the day, I really think they could have dethroned the Beatles, people would've been like "OMG, this is like Sgt. Pepper only ten times better". Ah, well...

[@user-xu4xw6jm7d]

Pet sounds is already like sgt peppers only ten times better

[@janhommer]

@@user-xu4xw6jm7d I'll do you one better: The Beach Boys are far superior to the Beatles, period. And, mind you, I'm saying that as someone who LOVES the Beatles (what an unbelievable musical evolution they went through, can't stop listening to their entire discography in order of appearance to experience that amazing effect). Guess that's the 60s, you can absolutely love a band and still find one that's even better. It's because (!), not in spite, of me feeling that way that I, admittedly always had a "problematic relationship" with "Pet Sounds", though; I generally tend to react "allergic" to people praising something to me beforehand like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, plus what didn't help when first listening to it was the fact that I'd already heard some particular highlights on best-of-albums ("Wouldn't it be Nice", "Sloop John B.", "God Only Knows") (I had those same two problems with both "Pepper" and "Rubber Soul" btw). Worst of all, die-hard Beatles fans tend to somewhat reluctantly admit how important the album is (or even really and genuinely praise it, which doesn't help in terms of my problem, though) due to it inspiring "Pepper", of course, while criminally dismissing the rest of Brian's work, the amazing vocal arrangements and underlying sadness even on the earliest albums, not to mention later gems like "Sunflower" etc. (and yes, a lot of what the other band members contributed later is quite beautiful, too, see Dennis' "Forever" and stuff). I'm a Beach Boys fan, not a Pet Sounds fan, know what I mean? But that doesn't mean you're wrong, of course, so, long story short, that might very well be the case ;) My comment was more about popularity, though, and whatever Beach Boys fans today may say, that didn't help back then. But "Smile" might have, that's what I'm trying to say, because at that point "Pepper" would've opened the door for people to be more accepting of something more unusual, even by the Beach Boys (especially once word had gotten out that "Pet Sounds" inspired it) and, unlike "Pet Sounds", "Smile" would've had a "positive" vibe (people also tend to forget how succesful "Good Vibrations" was as a single, if that wasn't "foreshadowing" I don't know what is), so...

[@user-xu4xw6jm7d]

@@janhommer yea i get what you r saying and i completely agree, love all of the beach boys albums ive heard and pet sounds is my favorite album of all time. I also had heard the big hits before listening to the entire thing and that did affect my experience a bit on the first listens buy with time i grew to love every song on it as much as wouldnt it be nice and god only knows and etc etc.. i think they r all perfect. at the moment i would say my favorites are i know theres an answer and i just wasnt made for these times

[@karolk7711]

Why do you think so. Smile would be more experimental but being experimental doesnt mean better, let alone popular. Also, you have example of how people would react, which is song heroes and villians. It was neither commercial nor critical succes. Smile would be the same, because Many of its songs were as odd sounding as Heroes and villians

[@karolk7711]

Pet sounds is masterpiece of course. But remember Wilson rates sgt pepper even higher than smile

[@nonokbh]

Pet sounds is a 4 and Smile is a 10 ..

[@FeelFlows409]

In comparison to one another, in Brian's opinion, yes. He's not saying that Pet Sounds is a 4/10 album in general (I'm pretty sure he would either say it's a 10 out of 10 or 9.5 out of 10, or something like that), he's saying that it's a 4/10 in when compared specifically to SMiLE. I agree with him that SMiLE is generally more advanced than Pet Sounds, and I do personally prefer SMiLE, but both albums are perfect. They are both 10 out of 10's for me.

[@footfoot3496]

@@FeelFlows409 I remember an interview with Brian in Mojo magazine when The Smile Sessions was released. Question: Is Smile your masterpiece? Answer: No Pet Sounds is the masterpiece.

[@FeelFlows409]

@@footfoot3496 I’ve seen that quote too. Brian’s opinions and views on SMiLE have varied and evolved through the years, and it’s obvious he has doubts that SMiLE would have connected with people or have been well understood by people. These emotions and doubts continue to today, but most of it generally has to do with its reception and shelving it back then. But the music of SMiLE itself is something Brian knows is very advanced and a step beyond Pet Sounds; otherwise it’s shelving wouldn’t have crushed him for all these years. In his 2016 autobiography, Brian talks about his shelving of SMiLE - his “masterpiece” as he calls it there - as being what sent him into an emotional tailspin for nearly 2 decades afterwards. When it comes to Pet Sounds, it’s easy for him and everyone else to call that album his masterpiece because there is no doubt about the profound impact it has achieved and will continue to have on future generations of music lovers and musicians. It is, quite literally, his legacy to the world and his crowning achievement as an artist. SMiLE on the other hand, was never completed how Brian envisioned it; his 2004 solo version isn’t how it would have been back then. Heroes and Villains alone has never been completed to Brian’s complete satisfaction, and that song was supposed to be arguably the most important song on the album. SMiLE is a missed opportunity in his eyes, so purely on an achievement level, SMiLE isn’t his masterpiece - Pet Sounds is.

[@kendallperry9247]

@@FeelFlows409 For me I'd give Smile a 10, and Pet Sounds is a 7.5 or an 8. SMiLE, along with the innovation, seems to carry this strong, and erie but beautiful spiritual energy that connects with your deepest subconscious feelings, which is what I fawn over. This is not only from the amount of unorthodox musical colour, but also from the abstractness of the lyrics. I've always admired how most of the lyrics never come right out with the narrative, but subtly imply it through figurative language and the mood of the music. This however does not get to the level of being incomprehensible or verbally pompous like some prog. rock and other genres can be. I understand however why this didn't fly with everyone. The purpose of SMiLE was meant to be art, and some people expected pure pop music. Not that pop music can't be art, but people were looking for something to dance too, where as Brian wanted to express and innovate. The man was unfortunatly cursed with the wrong audience at the time of it's production. :( Pet Sounds, on the other hand, is almost as superior musically, just being less exotic in terms of instrumental colour. The very idiosyncratic harmonies Brian is known for (weird modulations; added tone chords; liberal use of 2nd/3rd inversion chords; pantonality) appear in both albums, but reaalllly shine here! The spiritual energy on this album mirrors that of SMiLE as well, in a perhaps more innocent way (maybe because it's less psychedelic?). "Don't Talk", however, seems to have a mood very similar to what can be found on SMiLE. Where it loses it's 2.5 points, is in lyrics. Most songs, especially "That's Not Me" and "There is an Answer", have in my opinion, corny and simplified lyrics that kind of ruin the mood that the music works so hard to create. This, I imagine, was probably both from Wilson not having a passion for deep poetry yet, and Tony Asher being a jingle writer, as opposed to full on lyricist like Van Dyke. I think it'd be super interesting to hear an interpretation of Brian's ideas for Pet Sounds, given a SMiLE type treatment!!! The same music arranged even more experimentally, and the lyrics being more abstract and expressive.

[@FeelFlows409]

@@kendallperry9247 well said! I agree with you about the mood both albums set and their lyrics. One thing I sometimes say to people who ask me about the appeal of both albums is that I liken Pet Sounds as being a bit like going to church and/or falling in love - it strongly connects with people on an emotional and spiritual level, which I think is a big factor regarding why people have so intensely connected with it over the years - whereas SMiLE is a bit like going to a museum and reveling in an absolutely brilliant work of art. It’s more cerebral, esoteric, avant-garde, etc. than Pet Sounds is. You connect with it a bit differently; one becomes spellbound by its immense beauty on a deeper, more cerebral, and more emotionally subconscious level. I definitely agree with you about the lyrics. While Tony Asher’s lyrics definitely do their job and do it well, they are sometimes overly simple to a fault. I Just Wasn’t Made For These Times is my second favorite song on Pet Sounds after God Only Knows, but it also happens to have a lyric that I think perfectly captures what I mean about the lyrics sometimes being simple to a fault - “Sometimes I Feel Very Sad”. That lyric definitely does its job within the context of the song, and I’m not knocking it within that context, but on its own it is so simple that it’s amusing when said aloud or read from a piece of paper. I’m not trying to put Pet Sounds down or anything like that with what I’m about to say, but that line reminds me of something a toddler might say or write. It works well within the song, but I hope people reading this can understand what I mean. I’m not a “lyrics” person and I generally don’t put a lot of stock into them, but SMiLE is a beautiful marriage of music and lyrics that I find to be incredibly effective. The music and the lyrics separated from each other are incredible on their own, but when they are put together they just add an extra dimension to one another, making each lyric and each track that much better.

[@jgh548]

He looks heavily medicated here. He was more lucid in some other interviews from this time.

[@calebfleming3169]

Is there like an actual smile album or is it just smile sessions

[@DrCZR]

Sorry for the late reply, there’s actually a full Smile album as Brian intended. Check out SMiLE - Brian Wilson (the down side is that Brian’s voice sounds much older in that album but the rest is amazing!)

[@robdob249]

brian

[@jr4915]

He's correct but instead of 10-4 in favor of Smile, how about 10-8.

[@julianG1212]

Smile will always better than sgt pepper

[@revoltanhero2610]

Pet Sounds is MUCH better. Smile is a bit overrated, still having some great and innovative songs.

[@TitanicConcerts]

Pet Sounds was finished and works better as a whole. Smile is too schizy but with flashes of brilliance.

[@scherrer4715]

As a classical musician: Smile (Or rather 'The Smile Sessions') is much more musically advanced, quite contrapuntal, it's like you're listening to a classical music masterpiece. But Pet Sounds is a much more spiritual and emotional experience, Smile is perhaps the most progressive pop album in terms of music theory, but its atmosphere and feeling were childish. Its psychedelic, childish, avant-garde aspects are very individual and do not make the experience suitable for everyone. Pet Sounds is one of the best pop music albums, even though it has artistic touches, it is more like a pop album, perhaps like Schubert's lieds, very refined and brilliant in a different way. But when I listen to Smile, it is as if I hear Bach's polyphony and spirituality, Mozart's presentation of complexity with simple and childlike naivety, Gershwin's classical-American pop/jazz combination and the experimental spirit of the 1960s (such as Cage, Stockhausen, Boulez), rhythmically, it is also quite creative, reminding even Stravinsky. This combination is very creative and exciting. Smile is a much more detailed, experimental, rich, unexpected, truly progressive album. Both Pet Sounds and Smile are among my favorite albums; But while listening to Smile, I get a pleasure equivalent to high-level classical music.@@TitanicConcerts