British 1908 and 1912 pattern cavalry swords (estocs)

[@the_rha]

In Poland there was weapon like that (estoc blade on sabre handle) and it was called "koncerz".

[@junichiroyamashita]

the koncerz was very long

[@liamdoyle5363]

wow, I'd never heard of it before so I just googled it, and it is a truly beautiful sword.

[@Alopex1]

It's obvious why the pommel is chequered. When thrown at your enemy, your smite will leave a chequer-mark in his face.

[@sandygrungerson1177]

or Cheque-mate

[@davidadams7602]

i'm pretty sure it is for lighting oldschool non safety matches, as this was the time they came into common use, and pretty much all soldiers in this period smoked.

[@hudsondonnell444]

Hmm, would the Chancellor of the Exchequer approve?

[@morallyambiguousnet]

And now for something completely different; a 4 foot ice pick.

[@albinalligator5772]

A friend of mine found a sword like that in the woods outside our hometown in northern Sweden many years ago. I thought it was a weird and clumsy weapon because how heavy the blade is and the handguad bigger than I thought "it should be". But thanks to you I finally understand what it was made for.

[@roystonito]

This was a fascinating video Matt. I'm so happy to hear a mention of effective cavalry use in WWI. Yes, the war embodied the transition from old world military mentality to the modern era, but that does not make cavalry mute, especially since motor vehicles were still in their infancy, struggling strenuously in harsh terrain. This was one of my favorite videos of yours.

[@brennanfaucher947]

Hey Matt, have you considered collaborating with The Great War? I've been enjoying their series showing the fighting conditions for the men in the trenches. If anyone knows where to get good information on WWI era fencing, for the various nations, it might just be you. And for things you don't know, you may know the right people.

[@Skypad00]

I like how they combined a tiny shield and sword into one.

[@DeltaGreenA]

Hey Matt, really love these long in depth sword review vids. Keep up the good work! As for the swords themselves, I can see the arguments against them, but boy, I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of a charge by a bunch of guys giving point with these on top of heavy cavalry horses. Excellent hand protection, crazy point, stiff blade. It's basically a short lance, but one that you can use to parry a opponent's blade if you get into a melee, and the guard is probably one of the best I've even seen.

[@NeonsStyleHD]

It makes sense that it'd be a heavy sword. Given it's use, thrusting on a horse at speed, you would want a very stiff blade that won't break when it plunges into some guys mid section, or break when the horse gallops past and will twist the victim as the sword is pulled out (or the rider pulled off depending.)

[@Robert399]

I don't really see the dispute over the 1908. It's a good cavalry weapon and a bad sword. That's fine, cavalry don't need to use swords. Lances and warhammers are pretty bad swords as well but they're still good weapons.

[@TheZombieburner]

+Robert R More of a spike than a sword, really.

[@TheZombieburner]

Seems like it, yeah!

[@TheZombieburner]

shlibber Good advice, to be honest.

[@alexmarshall3815]

Always thought this was a very beautiful sword-have one of my own. My favourite design, but the Prussian pipe-back 1852 design (recently copied by Cold Steel with some noticeable flaws) runs it a close second. Found your review on pipe-back sabres in general-the 1845 British transition from pipe back to Wilkinson blades-very interesting.

[@ME-hm7zm]

I like that style of sword, AND I'm a sword guy :) (very awesome you finally shot a video on it!) I like the industrial sensibilities of the later military swords - 1908's, Porto Segundos, Shin-Gunto, etc. Interestingly, years ago on (if I recall) Sword Forum International I likened these to estocs, but got the shoot down since armor wasn't involved. I feel vindicated! :D In any event, like others below have said, these are basically one handed lances with great hand protection. No foot instruction was given, but I'd imagine they'd be deployed similar to a rapier. I do wonder why a triangular cross section wasn't preferred (lighter, stiffer); my only guess being ease of manufacture. The hand protection is a bit suspect if you're never supposed to get into a melee, but it's better than not having it, for sure. Eventually I'd like to get my hands on one of these (or the Patton type). One day!

[@Xandros999]

+Michael Eversberg II How would you use a sword without getting into melee?

[@ME-hm7zm]

Xandros999 By riding through without stopping.

[@jordanwilliams6972]

The Spanish sword is called the Puerto Seguro, not Segundo.

[@ericamborsky3230]

I imagine the hand protection would probably be pretty good for if you are charging another cavalry formation and they point their sword at you.

[@MisterKisk]

It's not all that different from a Polish hussar's koncerz, apart from the bowl shaped handguard. Interestingly enough though, they were armed with a lance, koncerz, and a sabre as their hand weapons. I suppose that's understandable when all hussars had to provide their own weapons, armour, and horse (except for their lance which was provided to them), so they'd want to be as versatile as possible, compared to military equipment that was issued by the state.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

+Kisk79 Well, the koncerz is basically a form of estoc. Other surrounding Slavic languages use very similar terms whenever they translate "estoc" or "tuck" (regardless of era). In my own mother tongue, the native word for "tuck" is "končiar" (obviously similar to the Polish term).

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Kisk79 Yes, it's essentially an estoc.

[@Kretek]

+scholagladiatoria Ok, but wasn't estoc two heanded weapon? Koncerz was one heanded weapon.

[@mylesdobinson1534]

Thanks Matt, these were issued to the Australian and NZ Light horse after they charged and took Beersheba in 1917 ( my Grandfather took part). as when they charged the Turkish/German trenches they used hand held .303 Bayonets as this was all they had for this role. they were also used to great effect after that at a number of battles for clearing trenches and house on foot. would love to procure one as an addition to my grandfathers collection that I currently the custodian of .

[@shanerogers24]

Just in addition to Matt's point about the mobile phases of 1914 and 1918. By wars end the Australian Light Horse in the Middle East were asking for, and being issued swords (1908 Patt obviously), counter to regulation, doctrine and their own prior inclination. It might not sound that significant, but if those gents could see the value in carrying an extra 5lb of weight, they probably had a point. Basically the Light Horse having fought as mounted Infantry with a 'side line' in light cavalry work from Romani up to Beersheba. Started running into more and more of those classic cavalry situations Matt spoke of, and if the P'07 bayonet was intended to do many things (and wasn't much good at most of them), but Lance and Cavalry Sword were not on that list.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Shane Rogers Good stuff.

[@RobThorntonSoloClimber]

Agree with you on all points Matt.I like these a lot.

[@mikesloan3924]

I'm a big fan of that weapon. Like the fairbairn sykes knife, simple, good for stabbing. I like that it's focused on stab, less for troops to learn. If it's a cutting weapon i'm inclined to want lots of power in the cut, so a falcion or some of the nasty scimitar style designs. The hybrid 'can kinda thrust, and kinda cut' of course gives you more options but for mass war weaponry i''d say stick to one and keep it simple always being the best policy. No edge to keep sharpening either.

[@wattlebough]

The Desert Mounted Corps of WW1 in Sinai and Palestine under Lt General Harry Chauvel was the largest body of mounted men since Napoleon's Grand Armee of 1812. It was the DMC, which included 2 Divisions of Australian Light Horse (Mounted infantry later armed with the 1908 Cavalry Sword), the New Zealand Mounted Rifles, French Colonial (Largely Senegalese) Cavalry, English yeomanry, etc, that played the decisive role in defeating the Ottoman Empire between Suez and Allepo from 1916 to 1918. It was these guys that fought the Battle of Megiddo (Armagedon) in 1918 that destroyed the Turkish 8th Army.

[@TheOhgodineedaname]

Ah truly the final evolution of the sword; A rebar with a sharp tip!

[@sonny19931]

I'm quite firmly on the "this is ugly as sin" club. I'm happy to hear your thoughts about it though, just as interesting as ever!

[@jacktraveller8290]

Completely agree with your opinion on the aesthetics. The officer's version is a thing of beauty.

[@hydlide6104]

Matt is bang on the money in this video. I always thought that the 1908 was a thin light cavalry sword. It's only when I saw it in real life in a Shropshire military museum alongside other swords that my first thought was " God, that's just a spike on a guard". It's curious, unless you see it first hand though, even this video doesn't make you understand just how 'chunky', the weapon is. Not heavy, just very solid.

[@SungJaeUng3]

On the eastern front, in africa, and in parts of the middle east there were heavy cavalry actions(not consistently, but a few operations that utilized them well), but to say the 1908 or the 1913 british cavalry saber played a large role in wwi engagements i believe deserves a bit more distinction. Indian lancers even played a role on the western front, but those were minor incidences. Horse mounted cavalry were a relic of the Napoleonic era where they played a huge part in campaigns, and many of europe's military leaders initially were still thinking along those lines. That's how they got so many of their men killed. British cavalry charging a machine gun emplacement did occur, but any successes they had were the exception instead of the rule. Far more often the result of a cavalry charge against an MG-08 and its crew was a pile of dead men and horses before the ranking officer that hadn't been mowed down ordered his men to fall back, because it was clear they would all be cut down if they didnt. That's why you dont see large formations of men on horses at the Somme or Verdun or even the Brusilov offensive. On the eastern front where men on horseback were used more extensively, far more often they fought as dragoons rather than traditional cavalry. On all sides, heavy artillery guns, variations of the maxim gun, and hotchkiss machine guns changed the nature of the modern battlefield. A large mass of men on horses with their swords flashing in the sunlight became less frightening and more just large targets for machine guns and artillery and entrenched soldiers with bolt action mausers with five round magazines that could be rapidly reloaded with stripper clips. A problem the BEF faced was men like Haig who were former cavalry men themselves, wanting to find a use for cavalry on the modern battlefield, when there just wasn't a place for them. Even having close quarters combat taking place in the trenches wasn't well suited for swords because the other weapons a swordsman might come up against were pistols, sharpened entrenching tools, grenades, and by the end there were men with submachine guns. In areas like africa and the middle east, they were men on horseback with swords, but it wasnt because horse mounted cavalry was the most effective force to use, it's just what they had. I imagine if you asked any of the riders with TE Lawrence whether they wanted horses to ride in to battle versus an armor plates rolls royce with a machine gun mounted on it, most would've picked the armored car with the machine gun.

[@Hibernicus1968]

This has got to be one of the few occasions where I think the plain trooper's version looks much better than the officer's. Something about that wire-wrapped fish skin just looks wrong with the contours of that grip; it reminds me of AR-15's I've seen with fancy wood stocks -- it just looks wrong, trying to apply an old-fashioned style of decoration, from a more ornate era, to a very new and different kind of weapon, that was born in a plainer, more utilitarian age, where "form follows function" is the dominant aesthetic. And the way the pommel appears stuck on as an afterthought, rather than having its contours blended better into the shape of the grip makes the whole hilt look awkward and lumpy to my eye.

[@memikell]

You may not realize it but the American version (M1913 and the later unissued M1931) swords design as a cut and thrust weapon was based on careful study's of wounds in the American civil war and later. It was found that the thrust was far more effective (against enemy cavalry) and much safer for the troopers. Your analogy of the lance is right on, American cavalrymen were forbidden to cock their arms as for a cut as this resulted in far more injury's as it exposed their arms to a counter cut. They were trained to, in the charge, to lean forward with the sword held straight out in front. They also found, by extensive tests, that the straight arm thrust was far more difficult to doge and counter than the cut. Some may argue but I have read that these modern designs were considered the best cavalry swords ever issued.

[@Templarium]

You're right, it is a beautiful sword. In the words of the people who sell the replica nowadays: "Beautiful in its simplicity".

[@BlackTango25]

Very interesting and informative video Matt, thank you.

[@SiegeRetardius]

I'm a fan of lances, and a fan of this. It's gorgeous.

[@SanityVideo]

I really appreciate it when people can change their opinions. It seems like there's so much ego in martial arts that people get as stuck in their opinions as much as with politics or religion. I'd love to see a video on how people connect ego to their favorite martial art or weapon, and how people did this in the past.

[@joelshort2907]

Given that the role of cavalry was going through a radical redefinition in that period and that the new role of cavalry was as mounted riflemen who could quickly redeploy to exploit a weakness, only using one's sword to pursue fleeing infantry or attack artillery crews seems a much more sensible proposition.

[@kodiakkeith]

One salient point is missed here; a thrust (in pre-antibiotic days) is usually a kill, and a slash is generally just a wound, and often not even a disabling wound. Your opponent keeps fighting... The 1908 (and similar swords) are one of many things marking the end of chivalry and the beginning of industrial killing on the battlefield. If you must draw the enemies blood, you'd best damn well kill him, with no room for "wounds of honor."

[@Hideyoriisdaman]

I do believe this is one of the best comments I've read in a very long time. Another point on thrusts is that they cause massive internal bleeding which was at that time impossible to treat in almost all situations, obviously before The Great War, there were rapiers and sideswords and smallswords that were very point oriented and also caused similar injuries, which were back then IMPOSSIBLE to treat if critical. The key difference is in the philosophical view of what the thrust kill signified in the past eras, back when there was still chivalry the thrust meant that you would die quickly without any unsightly wounds and the 1908/1912 sword here which was the end to true combat swordsmanship and a dawn to industrial loss of human life.

[@ArkhanNightman]

I actually like the way it looks. It's not pretty, but it looks firm and has a distinct profile.

[@alexanderguesthistorical7842]

Personally I don't know why they didn't flare the primary edge out, from the middle to the weak of the blade. Increasing it's width (not thickness) by just by about 1/4". Then with clever grinding and a little more distal taper, the characteristics of the blade mass would be the same, but it would allow for the formation of an additional cutting edge. So the "perfect thrusting sword", with a cutting edge "tacked on" from the strong of the blade upwards. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[@minuteman4199]

So the guys who spent their careers fighting with swords, came up with a good sword. I am not surprised. We must give them credit for knowing what they were doing. A good topic would be to look at the types of swords the British cavalry use today. It would be interesting to see how much sword training they do (if any, but i suspect they do). I remember seeing a demonstration of cavalry skills by the mounted troop of the Royal Canadian Dragoons when I was a kid. They did some tent pegging and cutting targets at the charge. I am sure the Life Guard and Blues and Royals do this sort of thing to.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Minute Man Generally they don't do any, though a few men in each regiment may be selected or choose to do such things for displays.

[@betonskiorah]

Heinz Guderian in 'Achtung - Panzer! -The development of tank warfare' gives numerous detailed examples of cavalry being decimated during charges against machine gun and artillery positions. Even in Belgium in 1914. when positional warfare was not a thing yet. It is not just modern media: "Not a horseman will be seen... Breech-loaders and machine-guns will have banished the cavalryman quite mercilessly from the battlefield." - Von Schlieffen, 1909. ...and so it was. Great book btw, i recommend it. :D

[@betonskiorah]

+betonskiorah One example: " The brigade had made a successful passage of the Gette at Donck, and it was there that it received the order to sweep onwards and capture the enemy artillery. Without losing a moment the regiment of Konigin Cuirassiers galloped through Velpen with a first line of three squadrons; this charge too was beaten off with severe losses. The regimental commander renewed the attack with the third squadron, which was still intact, and the remnants of the first two squadrons. It was all in vain, and a third and last effort proved to be no more successful." - chapter 1. Lances against machine-guns. Geman losses in the action at Haelen - 24 officers, 468 men, and 843 horses, compared to Belgian - 10 officers, 117 men and 100 horses.

[@DonMeaker]

A Roman legionary walks into a bar... holds up two fingers, and asks for 5 beers... The Swedish 1842 cavalry sword was also a long and quite straight sword with a bifurcated (brass?) sheet metal guard. Leonard Wood tested the Patton 1912 sword performance against his own 1964 pattern sabre, against the back slats on a shaker chair in his office, then measured the depth of cut. He concluded that the Patton sabre was superior at giving point, but was also a superior cutting tool.

[@willinnewhaven3285]

I had a replica Patton "saber" and I always wondered what was saber about it. At first, I thought it was an inaccurate replica but then I found it it was accurate.

[@Gungrave123]

It's called convex edge. Arguably the best blade geometry out there, also harder and costlier to make.

[@Peterowsky]

While the quality of video and audio in your uploads is not by any means bad, I strongly recommend getting better gear to do your recording Matt, when coming from another video with properly recorded sound the difference is rather enormous. Considering you have almost 100.000 subscribers as of this comment, an upgrade like that might be due, no? Anyway, nice input on the qualities of estoc-like swords and their use.

[@dopellsolder]

Hey Matt, what about making a video specificaly about cavalry in ww1? I think it would be pretty interesting

[@EdMurphy13]

As you said I would imagine that the 1908 was perfect for WW1 with the confined space of the trenches. The trenches would act just like a piste with movement being back and forth with limited movement to the sides. As well as the fact that you would really be able to put much for into a slash except for a ruffly 12-6 blow.

[@fredeagle8766]

you would have reliable revolvers and even automatic pistols by then. the sword would be used in the charge to disperse and hopefully rout disorganised infantry. quite a good idea as a shock tactic.

[@jerryjarrells724]

I feel like Matt wasn't too happy with how the saber was used in War Horse.

[@juliahenriques210]

It's interesting that in the end they got back to a "rapierish" design. What was the rationale behind sacrificing cutting in Western Europe when so many other light cavalries never did it? Explaining that would make quite an interesting video.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

Matt once answered this question of mine once, and his guess was that it was easier, faster and cheaper to teach cavalry recruits to simply hold the sword in front of them and run enemies through, instead of schooling them through the whole study of cut, thrust and parries. Especially since they recognized that changes in technology meant that opportunities for cavalry mounted actions had become much more limited.

[@RandyTheSavage5150]

the convexed the edge. Very cool

[@jwdougherty3798]

My chisels have edges sharpened to either about 25 or 35 degrees (depending on the materials they will be used on) and either angle will allow you to shave. Woodworkers often have bald patches on their arms from testing blade sharpness. So, Mat's comparison to a chisel was rather unkind to the chisel.

[@ycplum7062]

It is the perfect cavalry sword for its intended use at the time of its design.

[@Dale_The_Space_Wizard]

The more that I looked at this particular sword in your hand the more I find myself wanting to own one, for some strange reason :)

[@CarnalKid]

Does anybody else sometimes picture Matt in boots and braces all like "Oi! Oi! Oi!"?

[@KenZilla72]

I got one of those 1912 pattern swords made by Wilkinson. Based on the serial number I think it is made in 1917 or 1918. There was this website where you could send in the serial number and against a fee you could get back the documentation they had on it, but I never got around to do it.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+KenZilla72 Yes indeed, Richard Milner's 'Wilkinson Sword Research' resource - I use it frequently.

[@KenZilla72]

+scholagladiatoria Thank you! Found their site and now I remember why I newer got around to doing it, I have to print the form an actually send it by old fashioned mail. I think I shall get around to doing it this time as it will soon be a hundred years old.

[@kelly1863]

Thanks Matt. Nice job (as always, ho-hum). Absolutely right! I own both off. and enl. and have nothing but spiritual loathing and disgust for the 1908/12. :) Patton used the Swede '93 as an example! WHAT!! You get a gold star. The blades are certainly similar and they are a double edged (mind you). Patton did hang around europe getting a sword master degree from the Samur Cav School and brought back some sort of French Cuirassier Pallashe which was put on display in the War Dept. The 1908 are good looking and glow with the prestige of the "Empire", but like most arm blanche their years of war were for the most part spent in garrison. Rusting. Cheers

[@bradenvandeplasse8917]

I love you enthusiastically saying "It might actually cut something!"

[@fryertuck6496]

That thumb forward design would almost guarantee a dislotated or broken thumb.

[@NoWay1969]

I love this sword. I guess because I believe it was the last style of military sword widely used. 1913 "Patton Saber" is essentially the same thing.

[@hcornec]

This sword have a nice steampunk look, like a lot of forgotten weapons froom WWI.

[@JMALEEDY]

I have to say it looks remarkably like a sport fencing Epee

[@scholagladiatoria]

+james Maleedy Except that it weigh about 3 times as much. It's like 3 epees stuck together.

[@maxayson9386]

Apologies if you've already covered this in a previous vid, but I'd like to see a video musing on what cavalry could actually do in WW1. I mean its obvious they we're in their element when trench warfare broke out, but as there were presumably a lot of cavalrymen in the various armies of WW1 they must have got into combat at some points without just being mown down, and i would love to hear if there were any accounts of cavalry troops getting stuck in during WW1 and how their equipment fared with the sharp shovels, clubs and trench knives the infantry were working with.

[@maxayson9386]

+Max Ayson woops, haha i left the comment when i had the thought not before i'd finished the video, had some points on that at the end. Good good!

[@petergaskin1811]

Both these are very, very good weapons. I wouldn't want a beautiful sword, but I would want a good weapon.

[@JimBCameron]

"This is quite like . . . well it's not really!" Brilliant! :D

[@SolidBren]

I'd love to see some test cuts and thrusts with these weapons some time!

[@gorisenke]

My first thought was pointy and straight, and then it was holy shit that's thick.

[@nickdarr7328]

I've always thought a large part of the value of an officers sword is crowd control. To a small degree just the prestige and social position that comes from seeing a man with a sword would probably inspire soldiers. I mean if im an illiterate coal miner barely 5 feet tall and permanently stooped and see an officer standing tall and proud and not even bothering to lower himself by returning fire from common enemies it sets a powerful example especially with unsheathed sword in hand. But when more is needed that heavy thick blade must provide a fine surface to give reticent soldiers a friendly wack with the flat of the sword. A dull sword like this is probably more useful in the first world war than a revolver an officer might have

[@kindermord]

Very nice Matt - but more Le Marchand please!

[@JamesPawson]

My Cold Steel 1908 hangs on the wall beside my bed. I like the way it looks, but even as an ex-epeeist (all thrust), I am not sure I really like it as a weapon. This CS one is only about 2.5lbs, which I suppose is light, but it just doesn't feel right in my hand. Oh well. Good to hear Matt likes it, in a way, after all.

[@ME-hm7zm]

+ᒍᗩᗰᕮᔕ ᑭᗩᗯᔕOᑎ Was looking at buying one of those a while back; IIRC the handle is quite short. I've seen people refer to it as an "India Pattern"

[@nikemozack7269]

What did the Germans and Austrians have at the time? The huge guard makes it suitable for duels also. It's still as rapierish as it can be!

[@wheelmanstan]

Hey did you see that pirate sword fight on "black sails" last night, was pretty good.

[@LordBenjaminSalt]

Keeping the common assessments in mind, could you use it like a Rapier? The weapon heralded as the pinnacle of duelling swords. Both have a fairly strong point bias, highly protective hand guards, and I can't remember the numbers, but they both tended to be fairly heavy...

[@TheBaconWizard]

+Benjamin Salt you would use it as a lance or estoc

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Benjamin Salt No, it's like an estoc. Rapiers are light in the tip - this is heavy in the tip.

[@AGermanFencer]

Love these :) Very interesting. Would love to try and "give point" with one of those. I am totally into swords and love it :D

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Very nice video, it's rare to see such detailed overviews of late, WWI era military swords. :-) Speaking of the cavalry role and specialisation of these swords... Do you think mounted infantrymen of WWI could also have found uses for the 1908/1912 swords, or were they better off just sticking to knives and bayonets ? Cavalry in WWI was indeed used regularly on the eastern front and the fronts in the ME. Aside of the beginning and ending of the war, the western theatre did see less horseman action due to the prolonged stalemates. The other fronts were generally more fluid, and those where horseback attacks made sense certainly didn't dismiss the importance of cavalry. Horseback units really only went out of fashion following WWII.

[@ME-hm7zm]

+ZemplinTemplar Those swords are too large to be handy in a trench. Look up "InRangeTV"; they recently did a half hour bit on trench weapons, actually.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+ZemplinTemplar I agree with Michael; these are too unwieldy on foot and especially in trench fighting. Short weapons were the way to go for trench combat, though there are some examples of swords being used in the trenches.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

scholagladiatoria I meant mounted infantrymen only (so, still men on horses, though not cavalry). But you're right that it wouldn't make sense for regular infantry to use these. :-)

[@AmbroseOh]

Can you talk more in-depth about how cavalry and this sword were used during WW1? Thanks.

[@Paranomasia12]

+Ambrose Oh He's definitely covered how the sword was used ("Using the point of sword & lance on horseback") but, and I don't want to put words into his mouth, I don't think Easton would want to go into specific tactics or strategy of cavalry only their weapons.

[@judofry]

Interesting point (pun 100% intented), perhaps it's hard to think of it as "perfect" because we are mistaken as to what perfect actually means in real life, an object or tool if optimized for a specific function will then only do that task well, any time you add more functions to something you sacrifice something else, I at least thought of perfect as meaning good at everything which was why I always got confused when someone said a weapon was perfect (at something) but had significant flaws (bad at things it is not intended for)

[@nameis6]

My grandfather left me a "1912 Pattern Cavalry Officers Swords Made for the Sons of the Maharaja of Gwalior" Could you tell me what is it made of and how do I polish it and remove black rust.

[@jacobmelanson3210]

I think the sword is beautiful. I love the design. If it weren't too heavy and was more dueling oriented I'd be all over it.

[@roymathews6240]

interesting I have one of the trooper swords but it is unsharpened and the handle is cast of a metal material. Perhaps it is a reproduction but I acquired it in the middle east so I can't imagine it is a recent one.

[@Joshua-lf1nf]

looking at the guard as a left hander, looks sufficiently protective for me to use left handed. :-) But the sword admirer in me does want to switch out the blade for something else. Particularly if I ever have to use it on foot in sparing or tournaments.

[@ceomyr]

I think it's interesting to consider these swords as intended for early 20th century warfare. They were certainly specialized and focused to be highly lethal. The sword looks very reminiscent of the m1917 trench "knife", except it's a sword with a handle for cavalry use. It's odd that military forces would move away from using a dedicated thrusting sword, and then this later military sword would be designed exactly in that fashion. It amazes me that they worked on this with the intention of using it for cavalry at that time. A sword for the British military fighting in the early 20th century? But why? The British military had weapons in use like the Webley revolver in 1887 and the Lee-Enfield multi-round rifle since 1895. They had machineguns like the Maxim in service since 1886. Using cavalry to fight was obsolete on the modern battlefield and had been for years. Arming cavalry with swords on top of that doesn't make sense. If there really was an occasion where it made sense to charge on horses and stab an enemy, why not do it with a bayonet on a rifle? Why bring a sword?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+ceomyr Well, there were lots of successful cavalry actions with pointy weapons in WW1. The fact is that fast moving cavalry can pop out of nowhere, attack something like an artillery crew, camp or baggage train, and then disappear again in minutes. WW1 revolvers and rifles can only stop cavalry if they see them coming early enough, have a clear line of sight (no good with hills or trees) and have enough ammo. Bolt action rifles and revolvers don't have a lot of shots before having to reload (certainly not against fast moving cavalry) and most of those shots will miss.

[@ceomyr]

Thank you very much for your reply Matt So there were lots of successful cavalry actions by the British with swords in WW1 as opposed to riding and shooting? Wow, I haven't been informed of that. As far as I've gathered cavalry was more successful in the Middle East in Palestine against a less technologically advanced enemy. Even then that enemy was quite outnumbered and I thought allied cavalry was mostly using firearms and maybe even tossed a grenade inside fortifications as they rode passed. What I've been reading (in my very limited education on this subject) has suggested that cavalry was highly important for getting around, but no longer very useful for charging into the enemy with a sword or lance, and that British officers who thought it was going to take out machine gun nests were sadly mistaken and stuck in their thinking. The situation you describe with cavalry forces carrying out attacks by surprise sounds amazing, but if they're riding so close and the enemy are firing shots at them anyway, why not ride up close and shoot them instead of stabbing them? That way your weapon doesn't get stuck or disarmed and you can hit them from a little further away too. What you're describing seems highly difficult and sounds like it would have taken astounding bravery and skill. Not to mention, your favourite, appropriate context (ie. having the element of surprise and lots of cover). That people even attempted such a cavalry charge astounds me with their bravery and dedication. It's amazing that people would dare to do that against 20th century firearms. The more I think about it the more it impresses me. Again thank you very much for your reply, Matt. It's always a pleasure to know your thoughts. I'll try to look up some more on the subject and better inform myself. World War 1 is quite an interesting subject and the transitions during that period to warfare were pretty huge. Sometimes it's easy to forget how big the transitions were, like starting out with cavalry and then actually using early tanks by the end.

[@jpf338]

love that sword even if I'am a sword lover.. that sound wierd

[@mps81a]

My sword's famous, presumably that's upped the value :D As much as I like the 1912, I do still think the 1908 is bloody ugly though! The decoration on the guard has got a very art deco feel to it , especially with the papyrus style flowers. I happen to really like art deco, so maybe that's why this appeals to me.

[@mysteryshrimp]

+Ægir Bladeworks Your 1912 really does look much better than the 1908, but that was probably (puts on sunglasses) the point.

[@mps81a]

I see what you did there :D

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Ægir Bladeworks Hah, good to see you here :-) I miss that sword - sooooooo much nicer than the 1908 and such a well-applied edge, for the cross-section.

[@mps81a]

Maybe we can sort out visitation rights and you can have it every other weekend :)

[@justsomeguy3931]

You're the NutnFancy of melee weapons

[@kyletimmons421]

Can you relay some anecdotes of use of this sword in WW1? The theory behind this sword is interesting, and I'd like to see how it performed if/when it was put into practice. I'm ashamed to say my only real knowledge of cavalry in WW1boils down an image of a French Cuirassier in 1914 w/ his cuirass (also a friend of mine just got his hands on an original helmet ;) ) and of seeing that...interesting?...film "Warhorse."

[@seejayep4258]

Is it possible to be good ambidextrously when using military sabers or any kind of single handed sword? As in fighting well with your left hand if your dominant right hand is incapacitated.

[@Alefiend]

I'm sure it's a fine weapon, but the philosophy behind the design troubles me. While the plan may be never to get into close combat, it's going to happen. This sword is the equivalent of only learning how to kick with named martial arts, because you're never going to grapple or get close enough to punch or-heaven forbid-wind up on the ground. That meaningless complaint aside, I do like that sword.

[@caminoprojectUS]

+Alefiend As a side not while it is labeled as a thrust only weapon it is able to parry and (for lack of a better term) whack. A well placed thrust is quite effective and somewhat hard to defend against. A good whack will take you out of the fight as well..... so in light of those i dont find it a particular problem in the design of the sword in and of itself.

[@ramisabreur7961]

You mentionned that officers - in the 19 th and early 20 th century - bought their own equipement and this is outstanding ! So were they highly paid ? 2 ) How much would a sword cost back in the day ?

[@falcons1988]

+Rami sabreur Traditionally, is still the case today but a lesser extent, officers (or their families) were of high social status - gentlemen. Therefore had relatively large amounts of family money. Up until the mid-late 19th century and Caldwell Reforms (I think - Matt will no doubt correct me) -officers could buy their own commissions. Caldwell stopped this, but nevertheless officers were still of a privileged status. By contrast the other ranks (privates/troopers etc - Sergeant Major) were and still are (apart from musicians) from traditional working class backgrounds.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Rami sabreur The junior officer ranks were not paid enough to even cover their costs usually, but that didn't matter as they were almost always from wealthy families. So paying to be an officer and pay for all your equipment and living expenses (from family money) was a sign of social status. As mentioned, the Cardwell Reforms in the 1880s changed all that. Sometimes, though rarely, non-commissioned officers were promoted to commissioned officer rank and in some cases they might have got financial help from the regiment to meet the equipment and living requirements.

[@aramis4728]

What about the Spanish 1907 Puerto Seguro sword? It looks very similar to the British 1908.

[@Slayer_Jesse]

But does the pommel unscrew?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Slayer Jesse Ironically, yes it does. There is an embedded nut.

[@TheZombieburner]

+scholagladiatoria End him rightly!

[@monsieurboks]

How did they not realise that in 1914? That would've instantly won them the war!

[@Ichithix]

Yeah, but if you had to pick between this and a smallsword in a duel.... :)

[@rasnac]

I heard these swords to be referred as "the second incarnation of the rapier" What do you think about this comparison, Matt? Is it as long as the rapier? And also, if the design purpose was to make a "short lance", why didn't they just use actual lances instead? After all, there were cavalry lancers in WWI.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

+rasnac It's more like a fencing foil than rapier, rapiers have cutting blades.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+rasnac It's nothing like a rapier really and certainly nothing like a foil (!!!!). This is 2.5lbs of spike. It's an estoc. It's not for fencing, it's a rigid heavy spike.

[@mikegould6590]

Question, is the fact that it's not a curved slashing weapon like other sabres..and more of a reinforced thrusting weapon - would it be closer to a spadroon? Or is the lack of a "triangular" profile a disqualifying feature for such a classification? Does that define it as an Estoc instead?

[@TheBaconWizard]

+Mike Gould I believe he says what its like in the video.

[@althesmith]

Rather phallic decorations. I suppose the focus was thrust-centric penetration...

[@Claire-xk5bb]

could an edge be ground to give the sword a slashing/chopping function too?

[@ME-hm7zm]

+Matthew Bozanich Yes, but the mass of the blade and it's PoB aren't great.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Matthew Bozanich That's what they have attempted on the 1912 shown here. However, due to the thickness of the blade and the narrowness, the angle of the edge is always going to be large.

[@antonymash9586]

I suppose that the edge means that it bites in the same way that a fanged mace works. So you wont cut with it but it should bludgeon rather than glance. The question is wouldn't they have been better served with a shovel or a carbine or grenades?, given the nature of the war they went to?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Anony Mash Cavalry had carbines and officers had pistols. Swords and lances are the most useful weapons on horseback. Grenades and shovels aren't usually used on horseback! When cavalry were dismounted to fight as infantry, they were usually re-armed as infantry. But cavalry were used effectively as cavalry during various theatres in WW1.

[@EvelynnEleonore]

I would say that it is a gorgeous sword, based on my personal aesthetic, however i realize that I lack a swordsman's or a gunman's eyes.

[@MrEdium]

Can you review the British 1885 Pattern Cavalry Sword ? Do You have one ?

[@teufeldritch]

What are the differences between the British '08 & the Patton 'saber?'

[@gabrielolmedo9000]

piece of beuty.

[@JTWilliams74]

So is this likely the use of an estoc? Many of the books and articles I've read claimed that they were used specifically to thrust in the gaps of armor or alternatively that they were basically used as two handed rapiers.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

From some primary source account, it seemed that eastern european cavalry often used the estoc like a little lance, tucking it in the armpit and butting up the guard against the bicep, or holding it against their knees.

[@liamjeffery1519]

I've always wondered how one could use these swords in a charge without dropping it or breaking you wrist. Seems like you'd have a hard time not skewering anyone you stabbed with it. Also, if the sword is only for stabbing then surely a lance would be more effective.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

The recruits were drilled extensively on how to pull the sword out safely out of their opponents' bodies after running them through. Look for 'tentpegging' video here in youtube and you would get the idea. As far as why they did not give the man lances, lances are even more cumbersome than a sword, and a lancer still needed a sword to defend himself with in a melee. Especially in an age when cavalry mounted action were expected to be much more limited, issuing lances to troopers would be a bit of an overkill.

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

A very interesting sword. How does it differ from the Patton Sabre? Sounds very similar.

[@mps81a]

+Laughing Daffodils The Patton has a more traditional grip (with patent style slabs riveted to the tang) and its blade is double edged with a thin central fuller. They are both long and pointy with a big bowl guard so they are close cousins.

[@donaldowens8804]

Are these 1908 1912 swords worth any money and how can I take a picture of the one I do have so you can elaborate on it

[@BenthiccBiomancer]

I get the point (pun intended) that it's a highly specialized hit-and-run cavalry weapon, but out of curiosity how well would you rate on foot in a straight up fight? Could it be serviceable against more common sword types or just complete rubbish?

[@scholagladiatoria]

+CiaoGamer Fairly rubbish. It's too heavy and slow. There is a reason that rapiers are much more nimble than estocs.