Brymen BM786 DMM Part 3, Testing the Latest Firmware

[@fieldsofomagh]

Great attitude by the Brymen engineering dept in tackling the relevant discrepancies and not attempting to shoot the messenger. This pro active approach can only but increase the confidence the end user can have in diagnosing and fault finding electric and electronic circuitry in both the industrial and domestic environments.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Fully agree with you.

[@whitevamp1051]

After watching your video on this meter and the response, that Brymen had is very reassuring, as well as the testing you have done on other Brymen meters, I have decided that my next meter will be a Brymen meter. PS: 2 thumb's up to Brymen for listing to a reviewer's concerns /issues, and fixing those issues.

[@AkiraTsukamoto]

Impressed both your tests and Bryman’s responses

[@ngtflyer]

Your videos (and Brymen's responsiveness to inquiries) are what convinced me to purchase two Brymen meters. I am totally happy with them and use them with confidence. BM257s and BM829s.

[@frother]

It's disappointing that after decades of DMMs we're still seeing a problem this basic. Major props to Joe for running these tests, and minor props to Brymen for being responsive and fixing the issue.

[@daviddevillers6790]

Thanks for this, Joe. Looking forward to a teardown - always interesting.

[@carlosgarciamuniz]

Great video Joe !!! Thanks for testing and showing us the improvements of the new firmware.

[@Algothy]

I have just purchased my new DMM: Brymen BM789 - I am so happy with this DMM! It is full packed with so many functions...so solid....so high accuracy...very nice handling, Display ... and so on! - Thank you Joe for your great test-videos! Here in Germany we have Dealer for Brymen - so I had only wait 24 h for my new toy :-)

[@joesmith-je3tq]

I'm glad you found it helpful. I do like that meter.

[@chefbink61]

I agree,, I'm very impressed by Brymen response to your findings. I remember your vid on the Gossen and one would think that a company that is producing a meter at that price point would show much more interest in finding a fix for the problems with their product. I guess that's why I own a few of their meters and why they are my go to brand.

[@EEVblog2]

7:30 This is a not un-common hardware limitation of meters that share AC and DC switch positions, which is why Brymen can't fix this for the BM235 in firmware.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

As I said in the video, it's not uncommon, period. I've never asked Brymen if they could improve the BM235.

[@hairfritz2667]

EEVblog2 could you expand? Meters that don’t share AC and DC switch positions have this problem too.

[@EEVblog]

@@joesmith-je3tq I have asked them in the past (before your testing of the BM786) if it can be fixed in firmware on the BM235, and they said they cannot, they said it's a hardware limitation of sharing the AC and DC range switch. I have since found the same issue in some other meters that share the AC and DC switch position.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@EEVblog From my tests the BM235 is one of the better meters I have looked at when it comes to this test. There are so many meters that are much worse than the BM235 that I have looked at, I wouldn't have considered asking Brymen about it. As I demonstrated, that first version of the firmware I tested was more sensitive to this test than any other Brymen products I have. You have had access to the BM786 much longer than I have. I'm surprised if you would have asked about the BM235 but ignore the BM786. I have a lot more testing to do but so far they certainly have done a nice job with it.

[@misterjorous]

Grab a coffee and enjoy it... I love these dmm test videos.

[@avejst]

Great job Brymen! Great update Thanks for sharing :-)

[@mattdathew2794]

Thanks for revealing these issues, some people may get errors & not even know it, those error voltages were pretty low compared to what others were showing

[@joesmith-je3tq]

The new series is pretty nice.

[@SIXSTRING63]

Great video as always Joe! When is Brymen going to make a JS model? They should for all the help and pointing out issues. It’s amazing they get to the problems you bring to their attention instead of saying “no big deal” like most companies would. I have 4 Brymen meters now and they are my go to meters on my bench. I also picked up a great used Fluke 189 a year ago or so after your tests. Keep the tests coming. A 786 might be on my radar after these tests. 👍👍👍

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Buy a BM869s, then get yourself a marker. Black. Now, write JS across the top. Instant JS meter!! lol. I won't suggest you do this to a classic 189. Both very nice meters for my use. I was rebuilding an RF attenuator and was using the two temperature sensors on the BM869s to look at the temperature gradient from the element to the spreader to the sink and between the two case halves. The only thing better than a BM869s, is having two of them!

[@SIXSTRING63]

@@joesmith-je3tq Yep, my first was the BM235 and then the BM869, BM535 and a rebrand Greenlee I got used, I think a BM210 is the Brymen model of it. $30, couldn’t pass it up.

[@hightttech]

@@SIXSTRING63: I LOVE the Fluke 189 (and the 289). I've been very tempted to pickup a BM869S (because JS speaks SO highly of it), but its dBm ref Z is not adjustable between 1-1999Ω like the 189. Unfortunately, it only offers presets (e.g. i use 2Ω & 6Ω frequently, but BM869S only offer 4Ω, 8Ω, and up). Cherish that 189, and don't forget to upgrade it's super capacitor.

[@SIXSTRING63]

@@hightttech Yep, upgraded the super cap after Joe put out a video on that. I was lucky to find one that looked as if it was fresh from the box for $200 a year and a half ago. Now they are up to $300+ for beat up junk in most cases.

[@Petertronic]

Might be worth putting an update that the issues were resolved, in the description or pinned comment in Part 1. Watching Part 1 alone leaves the impression that the 786 has some issues.

[@ThePapa41]

Outstanding series of testing and discovery on this issue Joe! It demonstrates a widespread problem, marketing comes first, but Bryman clearly shows its integrity in the manufacturing of test equipment! People like you are why America is Great, I got involved in electronics in the mid-'50s, Tektronics, Hewlett- Packard and many smaller corporations shared the same integrity in producing equipment. Your channel is outstanding and a great source of learning! Who is a source for this meter in the USA? How will I know if the meter has the updated IC firmware? Thank You, Louis Simon

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Several of us use a distributor out of Poland who carry Brymen but this particular meter can only purchased from the EEVBLOG site. You may find it on Amazon.

[@Ruudwardt]

The funky AC waveforms test. I have said it before and it does not hurt to give more credit for it: It's a great test, that is what real life is like, and not clean lab conditions with sines with 0.001% THD. Thanks! The test would be even better if you'd have a higher caliber instrument for reference, like the Thermal RMS Fluke of yours.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

The problem with that antique Fluke (besides it being so large) is I have no idea how accurate it is. It really needs to be checked.

[@dreamvouyer67]

Hello again Joe, great update on this new meter and even greater response by the Brymen team! Kudos to them for keeping their finger on the pulse of their products and their willingness to stand fully behind them. It might just be me, but I can't seem to overlook what I think I saw as a flaw with the "bar graph" display on the 786. It appears that there was no bar graph display while in "A/C" mode...also it appears that the bar graph update speed is extremely "choppy" and slow to respond, also it seems to "skip". Let me know if it is just me please. Awesome job again Joe...I await eagerly on your next update...👍🏼🙂

[@joesmith-je3tq]

If you read the comments you were not the first to notice the lack of a bar graph. What you failed to notice was the meter was set to VFD. You may have also notice it was off at other parts of this video were I had it enabled. You may consider it a flaw but it's covered on page 5 of the manual. I am not sure what you are referring to with the bar graph. I did a whole section on just that one feature. I assume you watched it or you wouldn't be commenting on it. You would need to tell me which video and time you are referring to.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Also, why you did not comment about it, you may have noticed that the 786 was reading a bit low during the part were I had the DSO connected and cycled through the waveforms. The VFD mode would have an effect with waveforms that contained higher frequency content. Again, not a bug but a user problem.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@MNIEMANOLOG It's very possible according the Brymen that the meter is out of cal now. But, if you watch very closely, you can see that the 786 reads very close to the BM869s except in cases where the waveform has a lot of high frequency content. I think with VFD active, the manual doesn't specify the accuracy above 200Hz. I strongly suspect if I repeat this test with the VFD mode off, it would have been much closer (and we could all watch the bargraph).

[@dreamvouyer67]

@@joesmith-je3tq thank you for the response Joe. I will chalk this one up to me as an oversight on my part...😊 I guess what it appeared to me that was happening was when you was varying the voltages in A/C and in DC mode, the meter's bar graph display "appeared" to be very "skippy" and "choppy" in response to the varying voltages, and it almost seemed to not respond to the varying changes. I will go review your video again....👍🏼🙂 That all aside, I have totally been enlightened and enjoy all of your testing and updates on these multimeters. You have been bang on with your evaluations and testing. 👊🏽🙂

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@dreamvouyer67 Consider when I edit the video, I will compress sections that will cause a skip in the video. Of course everything being shown will be effected. You should be able to detect this. The update rate for the BM786 is 50 times/second. That's fairly fast compared with many DMMs. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWexnHSFl8iAm8U

[@dreamcat4]

Great thorough testing yet again. BTW after finishing on the 786, could you maybe also just to a quick separate video to summarize the main differences between the 786 and the 869s? Clearly want to buy one of these 2 meters. But the decision as to which one to go for is not very clear. Such a comparison would really be quite helpful,. Even if it seems a bit mundane / obvious. Would really be nice to know what *you* think about the feature sets. And if there is anything on the 869s that you would really miss. Or the other way, if the smaller size of thie 786 is enough to matter in mobile / hand held situations. Thank you!

[@joesmith-je3tq]

No need for a separate video. As I have stated and written several times over the years there are few things that I really like about the BM869s. I like being able to see more information on a single display. Dual is nice, tri is even better. I like having two temperature inputs and being able to display both at the same time or the difference of them. I make use of the 500K mode. I have never used the serial interface with the 869s and am not sure what it would take to make it work with LabView. If I did not normally use the bench meters, I would most likely use this feature. That said, my choices about what I want in a meter are not going to be the same as what YOU want/require. Your looking at mobile use, where I use it on a bench. Learn to make your own choices.

[@dreamcat4]

@@joesmith-je3tq "Your looking at mobile use, where I use it on a bench. Learn to make your own choices." makes it sound like the 2 usages are mutually exclusive. But rather mixed use (both, and for everything) is what I am doing. What I was really angling at was if the extra cost of the 869s is reallyy worth it. And I would agree with you that it is. The dual temperature inputs specifically are what has sold me since I know I will definately use those. have never had the luxury or opportunity to ever use a meter with a dual display in my life... I really just have to trust you and take your word for it. The obvious decision is to buy the 869s first of all. And then later on if I still want something smaller for mobile use get a 2nd meter. Of course that tiny fluke you have looks lovely, but living in the UK here they are not as easy to get hold of so cheaply (as in the USA). But already having an 869, the choice of 2nd meter would be less important. Maybe other smaller option would serve well enough. Like the bm325. Perhaps then by comparison the 768 is too large as a mobile meter, or the price is too close to the 869s to be a good value. Anyhow not to worry. Thank you for your input. I just hope that here in Europe they will clear through the old stock of the 869s, to get the much longer backlight time. Thank you so much for fixing that! Would have preferred a permanently on option, but good enough I guess. And perhaps... doing a hardware mod for that on the backlight circuit is out of the question? Well not worry, it's probably fine. Thanks again!

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@dreamcat4 I would never suggest anyone modify any handheld meter in any way (except for the OEM). Lack of skills, education, resources to qualify it..... It makes no sense to me that anyone would ever do this. The cost isn't a big factor for me. Consider that these meters are for the most part purchased out of pocket. If a meter costs say $550 (saw some NOS of the Fluke 189) and say it has a life of 20 years. For me, spending $27.5/yr ($2.30/month) isn't a concern for something I am using. Then again, I may not need to spend $550 to get what I want. I have an HP34401A and HP3468A that I bought brand new. These two meters have served me very well over the years (unlike my first Fluke meter). It all depends on your personal requirements and resources. For a small mobile meter, the free ones we get from Harbor Freight were fine for many people. They have the longest battery life of any meter I have looked at. They are also very small and lightweight. Did I mention Free! lol. I would say it's better in many ways than my first Fluke. Have a look. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZOuoKCrgbGki5o

[@georgegherghinescu]

On the continuity test mode, can it be set so that it beeps on open circuit as well as on short circuit? I think some Keysights have that. Not critical but could be useful sometimes like when checking for bad intermittent contacts.. hook the meter up and play with cables and couplings to find the trouble spot.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Not that I am aware of and there is nothing in the manual about it. The manual is now on-line if you would like to learn more about it. Seems like you could make something custom to do what you want.

[@hightttech]

Fluke 189 continuity mode has both "beep on short" and "beep on open". Works great.

[@James_Bowie]

Kudos to Brymen for jumping onto those issues but, on the other hand, they should have identified the problems themselves in house during their own test cycles. Doing so is not rocket science as you clearly show.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

True, it's not rocket science. We're not trying to put a man on mars. As I said in the video and comments, this is a common problem. Seeing a new coveted Fluke 87V gold standard also having a problem with autorange should give you some insight into how common it is. Go back and watch when I tested that brand new Fluke non-contact volt meter. My guess is that the designers see this test as a fringe case. I would say they are right. Why? Because you never hear people complain about it. Obviously, Brymen is interested in improving their products. Maybe they will add this sort of test as part of their validation process. Who knows. I doubt many companies would as we have been showing problems for years..

[@hameedullah6633]

Which one is the best multimeter for everything. ( home, industrial, electricians and for electrical users)

[@joesmith-je3tq]

It's a very common question covered in the FAQ. I do not make recommendations nor am I trying to sell meters.

[@Daveyk021]

To update firmware a chip has to be changed? That sounds odd these days. Heck even my refrigerator gets firmware updates - lol.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

I'm not sure how you would jump to the conclusion that this was the only means to update the firmware. From Dave's comments, I am guessing that the part can be reprogrammed in-circuit at the factory. I have not asked Brymen. Dave's 121GW has the capability to be updated with a card reader. They released several updates for it. So if you like to update, that may be an option. I believe that's the only handheld meter I have where the user can perform this type of update. Oddly enough, it's also some of the worse firmware I have seen.

[@federicomelappioni8804]

Is the 786 better than the 869s?

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Please define "better". What metrics are you using?

[@federicomelappioni8804]

@@joesmith-je3tq I mean mostly for the DC voltage accuracy and quality. But anyway looking for a top DMM with all the features.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@federicomelappioni8804 Outside of the manuals for the two meters, which will have the published DCV accuracy (and other specs). It's a bit premature to say how this particular meter will hold up. If you look in the on-line spreadsheet, Brymen meters have performed well against my tests. I can't say that about too many brands. I hope to get back to testing soon, so be patient.

[@mirosawlewandowski7865]

We pay for the name on the housing? It turns out that the products of a well-known company are tested by the user.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

You are paying for the design, validation, production, parts, burden, overhead, distribution, shipping. As far as myself looking at a pre-production meter, IMO, it's never a bad thing to have more eyes involved. We do design reviews for a reason...

[@mirosawlewandowski7865]

@@joesmith-je3tq Thank you for your response.I'm surprised because these shortcomings are elementary.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@mirosawlewandowski7865 Being involved with several designs over my own career, I'm not surprised at all. Just a different perspective.

[@Nazmi_PWM.C]

There is a noise problem with brymen multimeters. For example, BM869s could not measure 560k resistance in noisy environment. You can try near the 220v 50hz line. video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYSnY2ern7VmrMk

[@joesmith-je3tq]

First I have heard of it. Have you documented your setup anywhere that you can provide a link for.

[@joesmith-je3tq]

Sorry, the links will hit the YT filter. Is this your personal video, or just a link you found?

[@Nazmi_PWM.C]

HI. I tried many times to get you a video but failed. I got stuck on the filter every time. finally, I edit this post. the video on my channel belongs to me. _SD24ujP3vg

[@joesmith-je3tq]

@@Nazmi_PWM.C I am able to replicate what you are seeing. I assume you contacted Brymen when you found it. What was their response?