Buddhism and "Atheist Churches" (Religion for Breakfast Video)

[@DougsDharma]

Free mini-course at the Online Dharma Institute: onlinedharma.org!

[@LogosFormont]

The welding of Reverence for Nature into Budhist philosophy may become very rewarding to promoting Secular Budhism. Nature Reverence with original Budhist teachings I believe presents a concept of Oneness desperately needed in society. Great viideo, thank you. . .Logos Formont / Puerto Rico

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome! 🙏 Love PR by the way, beautiful place!

[@silentkiller421]

I am a buddhist from sri lanka even i hadnt ever heard abt a concept before. This concept was in my mind from the begining. I didnt consider buddha as a super human or i didnt consider gods are really important and i didnt believe in the influence that ghosts can make on us.i rejected almost all supernatural things in the buddhism. I think i was a secular buddhist from the begining even i didnt know this concept before 😅

[@DougsDharma]

Yes I think that’s true of many contemporary Buddhist practitioners! 😄

[@johnhaller7017]

No stone left unturned there Doug. Thanks for that.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks John, I did what I could without (I hope) going on too long!

[@fairytalejediftj7041]

I tried going to a church for Nones, but I couldn't get into the habit. 😉

[@DougsDharma]

😄

[@dandanato2480]

😂

[@namename-kq8wt]

Another stellar video, Doug! Very much a live discussion within the Buddhist world, it seems. I watched a video recently where Robert Wright was interviewing our old friend Bhikku Bodhi on a paper he wrote re: his view that there was a third classification within Western Buddhism in addition to 'secular' and 'traditional'. This third group could probably be termed 'nones' although Bhante referred to them as 'immanent Buddhists' - neither traditional nor secular but rather just engaging in the practices without choosing to believe or not believe in the more speculative elements. I guess both camps - secular and traditional - may try to claim these folks as their own: from watching other vids by your good self, you too might see this group as part of the secular movement. But for me, personally, to self-define as secular would not feel 100% accurate, neither would a fully traditional label. An 'in between' seems a good fit. Anyway, here's the link to the video if anyone else is curious: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6SrioR6m8uVapo

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks KW! Yes these are very fluid categories and I don't think any way of determining precisely 'who's who' can satisfy everyone. It's the broad developments that are most telling.

[@Octoberfurst]

I totally agree.

[@karennielsen7696]

Thanks you helping me I'm new to this

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Karen. If you're new, you may want to check out some of my other more introductory videos! 🙂

[@vegahimsa3057]

When asked if I'm Buddhist or spiritual or religious, I can only answer based on what my questioner understands by these terms. I'm equally comfortable with yes or no to any of these questions.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, these are vague concepts and depending on the context any, all, or none of them will be appropriate.

[@vegahimsa3057]

@@DougsDharma as you alluded in your video, implied in the questions are belief in a creator, an appeal to supernatural beings (including Bodhisattva worship), and other unstated presumptions. Less loaded questions might be: do you incorporate an ancient teaching into your daily life? Does your practice include the belief in, hope for, or attainment of supermundane states? These questions may remove the implied theos or atta from religion and spirituality, but still don't cover the range of what might be called religious or spiritual practices. The poll is only compares different theologies Vs vague agnosticisms, wherein the range of Buddhist practices don't fit. Thus Buddhism will emerge and surprise future pollers seemingly "out of nowhere". I expect spirituality is entirely a semantic question and says nothing of Buddhist belief or practice nor much about Buddhist concerns. A more interesting poll might query acceptance, denial, "working hypothesis", etc of Buddhists toward devas, karma, reincarnation, atta, etc. How many meditate, keep five precepts, generosity, read suttas, etc?

[@jewbanqora5159]

You are absolutely ✔ Bro Douglas

[@MrJKCummings]

Doug, I thoroughly enjoyed this video. It seems to me that a distinction could be added to your talk. The question of Theism vs. Deism. I was raised an evangleical protestant Christian (a Baptist, very Theistic) and have gradually (over a 30 year period) transitioned to Reformed protestant (Episcopalian, which affords more room for Humanism, and more Deistic). I view scripture as 'man's thought about spirituality' and for me, it fits into an understanding of the evolution of man's religiosity. Now, I'm gaining an understanding of Buddhism (types and practices) and have begun a Buddhist practice of mediation. I would align mostly with Theravada Buddism but more likely Secular Buddhism. Though I feel more akin to atheists than to theists, Deism provides me a 'better' space.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes Deism is very close to atheism, and could be understood even in a Buddhist way, depending on what we mean by “deity”. I think one very important aspect of early Buddhism though is the practice orientation and the sense that nobody else can do the practice for us. Hence any kind of prayer or propitiation is out of place. Secular Buddhism can be seen in the same light.

[@alohm]

I feel that commonly seeing anything as 'atheist' vs non-theism(even then) tends to be viewed as very negative. In my path to discovering Buddhism(less secular, also less mystical: thus a middle way) I was an existentialist in my early teens. This lead to an understanding of how a philosophy can seem negative from an outside perspective. I found great hope and faith(in ourselves) from the existential approach to life, and impermanence and non-self did the same for me. I find Anicca to be a wonderfully positive perspective. Like Kipling said: treat triumph and disaster as the imposters they are: and life becomes less dissatisfying. :)

[@DougsDharma]

Yes there are many approaches to the dharma, and we all have to find what resonates with us. Anicca is indeed a very deep and wise perspective on life. Thanks!

[@slashetc]

I was a Taoist, Jungian and a bit of a Herman Hesse fanboy in my mid to late teens, at least in part thanks to Sting and the Police album Synchronicity, which sparked my curiosity. For me, "atheist" is a short-hand term of convenience when talking to others, but it is a bit ridiculous as I don't walk around obsessing over my not-belief in god, god is simply not part of my daily experience and is not even an absence. For a long time I called myself "agnostic" because atheism as an end seemed unsatisfactory to me, I felt that it lacked the tools and resources that I needed to cope with hardships and changes in life. Matt Berry's book on Post-Atheism (not to be confused with the term as used by re-converted Christians) helped me to embrace atheism not as an end but as a jumping off point to further exploration.

[@alohm]

@@slashetc I was similar: Agnostic because I was not so arrogant as to know if there was or was not a supreme being.

[@slashetc]

@@alohm The desire for there to be a god--or for there not to be a god--is an attachment that can lead to a type of craving. We may crave reason, purpose, order to our existence. We may crave justice or wish god to become an agent of ill will that we harbor for others and to reward us with pleasure for our actions whether in this life or some future existence. Belief in reincarnation shares the some potential pitfalls in a desire for a better reincarnation for one's self or another, or desire for a worse reincarnation for another, possibly even for one's self out of some sense of guilt and desire for punishment or feeling of worthlessness. Agnosticism to me is a means of abiding in non-attachment and impermanence.

[@slashetc]

@@thotslayer9914 I believe in the persistence of powerful narratives just as the Dharma of the Buddha has lived on for millennia within our consciousness. When I have heard people speak of their beliefs of an afterlife (or reincarnation) it usually sounds to me like an attachment to the continued existence of the mind and an aversion to decay and death. The only afterlife (or god for that matter) it seems skillful to me to believe in is one to which you have absolutely no attachment.

[@geoffh2560]

Really interesting analysis Doug - thanks! As a non religious person I've been confused by the term "spiritual" for a long time - I know some folk say "I'm not religious but I'm very spiritual" and I really haven't found any basis for this. If we accept there is no evidence for any gods then equally I see no evidence for a human "spirit". We're just animals with highly developed brains and highly developed powers of imagination I think.

[@DougsDharma]

I think the term "spiritual" has gained a broader usage than its prior connotations of "soul" or "ghost". To be "spiritual" is still a vague concept but can also mean we have some interest in the development of wisdom or ethics, in the bigger picture, rather than simply living our lives for material gain or the like.

[@comeasyouare4545]

My wife is a Buddhist, She ask me is the god that Christians believe in the same one that she believes in. I told her they are all one in the same. I am an atheist, she always tells me I believe in nothing. How can you believe nothing?

[@DougsDharma]

Good question! 😄

[@comeasyouare4545]

@@DougsDharma We all use belief to place ourselves in an unknowing reality. The difference is the nonrecognition that they are just that, only beliefs. So for me that recognition is an honest one.

[@user-Void-Star]

@@comeasyouare4545 just tell your wife cool down.

[@slashetc]

Part of my journey post-atheism has been to flesh out, articulate and communicate to others what it is that I do believe as that is not adequately described by the term "atheist" at all. "Being Good" by Simon Blackburn is one book that was succinct and particularly helpful to me. See also my reply to Almighty Ohm. Besides which I believe there is another affirmative interpretation of "believing in nothing" that would be entirely consistent with some forms of Buddhism if a bit complex to explain in terms of formlessness, emptiness and the absence of essences.

[@slashetc]

Look into the Heart Sutra (Prajna Paramita Hrdaya) which says "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form. Form is not different than emptiness; emptiness is not different than form." Thich Nhat Hanh has a short but sweet commentary on it and "Why Buddhism is True" by Robert Wright goes into the subject in greater detail, although I largely agree with Doug's video on that book as a caveat. In some sense, reality is nothing without conscious beings here to share experiencing reality, whatever it may be, and that is liberating and nothing to be afraid or upset about.

[@chadb7694]

Thank you! I've only ever been exposed to Jodo Shinshu but am curious about the main differences with Nichiren and Zen; how do you practice these in reality? Thank you

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome Chad. I've practiced Zen for quite awhile, though less recently. Recently I've been more in the Insight tradition that comes out of Theravāda and is similar in many ways to early Buddhist practices. I am not as familiar with Jodo Shinshu.

[@Octoberfurst]

As a Zen practitioner who is somewhat familiar with Nichiren I would say the main differences is that Nichiren focuses a lot on chanting and believes that the Lotus Sutra is the greatest of all the Sutra's while Zen focuses on meditation and koan practice. We treasure all the Sutra's equally but value experience over book knowledge. That is sort of it in a nutshell. Hope that helps.

[@emilromanoagramonte9190]

@@Octoberfurst I gather, you seem to forgot the tendency to chant in pursuit of specific conveniences, things, ect... this may exist individually in Zen, not as part of the practice, only as delusions...

[@bawngtimkh9196]

I feel that Buddhism can be divided into the religion and the philosophy. The religion changes from country to country and is influenced by the local culture, traditions and previous beliefs. The philosophy seems to be less about the traditions, superstitions, myths and chanting and more about the meditation and basic teachings. ( Do good, avoid evil and cultivate the mind.) The philosophy seems to be more universal. I moved to South East Asia and saw that most people identify as Buddhist but only go to the pagoda for special holidays and funerals.

[@DougsDharma]

Right, there are different ways to approach Buddhism as with so many things. Each of us should find the way that speaks best.

[@theworkethic]

@@DougsDharma The question is, do you need anything from Buddhism at all? For what? Can’t you figure this out for yourself?

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Is a Sutta like a Sutra?

[@DougsDharma]

"Sutta" is the Pāli term that in Sanskrit would be "sutra".

[@blackhunk2265]

Make video on Buddha and food .

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks I Bhardwaj. I have one video on this topic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGbSn5aGeZydgdE

[@PhoenixProdLLC]

No, I'm actually interested in a dumber, meaner, more violent kind of life. What do ya got for that?

[@DougsDharma]

😆 Not much, sorry! 😆

[@PhoenixProdLLC]

@@DougsDharma 😂😂😂 oh ok...party pooper! ;)

[@j.gabrielcamattari4701]

If the Buddha didn't really believe in Brahma (as a creator being), is the use of the name Brahma in "Brahmaviharas" just allegorical?

[@DougsDharma]

Well he did believe in Brahma, but not as a creator. He was instead a mortal being, deluded like the rest of us. The Buddha also believed that the route to his "Brahma heaven" or "Brahmavihāra" was through these practices.

[@j.gabrielcamattari4701]

@@DougsDharma I see. In that case, we'd be dealing with hyperdimensional "entities", so to speak, correct?

[@StoryGordon]

The religious/non-religious terminology of yesterday may be outdated. When considering the theist/atheist polarity of the past is being altered by the emergence of non-theism, a view that the concept of deity is inconsequential. Since deities cannot be defined, their existence is unsupportable.

[@DougsDharma]

Buddhism would be an example of just such a non-theist approach to belief I think, Story.

[@StoryGordon]

@@DougsDharma - So, too, religious humanism, Taoism and others.

[@paulocunha3799]

Bhagwa, Dev and Issar are three different terms in Pali but in English, they are called God. Buddha himself is called Bhagawa, Indra and many others were called Devta or devas. Buddha negated the existence of the Brahaman God that was called Issar (The creator of the world). Buddha rejected both Brahman theism and rejected extreme Atheism like Ajit Keshkambli, Puran Kassap, Sanjaya Belatthiputa etc. Buddhism is midway.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks Paulo, indeed I’ve discussed some of this material, such as Buddhism and atheism: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4C0mo2YdrWnjZY , and the Buddha’s “competitors”: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6Dbkpqjqbh7f5I . I wouldn’t term Kesakambalī, Kassapa, etc. “atheists”. They were materialists, fatalists, extreme skeptics, etc. The Buddha didn’t distinguish them particularly in terms of their views of the gods so much as their views of ethics, action, and reward. Perhaps this was because the Buddha himself wasn’t terribly concerned with the gods, and so didn’t care particularly what his competitors thought of them.

[@theworkethic]

What tf are atheist churches? That sounds like some sort of oxymoron.

[@DougsDharma]

Did you watch the video?

[@DoreenBellDotan]

In original Judaism, the attribute existence is not attributed to God. Existence is one of God's creations, as is infinity; but God has no attributed, not even existence. And you might be surprised to learn that God appears no where in the Hebrew Torah, because there is no way that God can be talked about. When the Jews were driven out of Israel into the diaspora, they came to speak about the Name of Four Letters as being God. It's not God. It is the highest level of holiness possible in the creation. Not dwelling there anymore due to their sins, they came to think of the far away holy Place from which they were self-banished as God. The original and true Judaism is much closer to Buddhism than to Christianity.

[@DougsDharma]

Interesting, thanks!

[@kms5750]

buddhism is Atheist 👍️👍️👍️

[@DougsDharma]

Depending on one's definition of the term, it can be seen as atheist.