Builds Were a Mistake | Castle Super Beast Clips

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@A_D_Art

[@Garl_Vinland]

“What is the problem that is you?” -Woolie

[@tomisabum]

Send it to the merch farm, boys!

[@zigmus00A]

Pat's only afraid of builds cause he's got a kid on the way. He's had to deal with the shitty build his parents gave him, and is afraid he might fuck up his min-max for Pat 2.

[@7U57HTJRYGHG]

funny how mentality changes cause before 2 or 3 years ago these 2 were putting out the segment video where they talked about kingmaker and how awesome it was that they let you botch your character build, fast forward to now and Pat is like "FUCK THE FREEDOM TO BOTCH MY CHARACTER, IM TIRED OF IT JUST GIVE ME MY ROCK SOLID CLASS"

[@Eidlones]

I don't remember that conversation, but I remember Pat always saying that he looks up guides to follow so that he doesn't fuck up his build. He just finds a good one then copys it

[@drunkdonkeydude]

Pat has always been a powergamer who goes for ideal choices backed up by researched knowledge of game mechanics, or just copying off a guide. Yes, I remember them talking about how certain tabletops and videogame spinoffs let you botch your build and it was a good thing to have in general. But thats a seperate discussion from "When I play, I just want to have a good time without needing to think about all these external variables. I just want to play the game" Pat has a viable point, even if we dont all agree with the details of how he argues it. The problem is thats a very difficult hill to die on in todays video game industry, from the indies to the triple A. Features will be included for the sake of included features. Artificial depth will be added to games (item power, anyone?) to amuse people for longer, who havent seen it before. After the hundredth time, you stop caring and just want to focus on the game behind all these external systems. Now, to be fair and argue against Pat - the thing that he is missing is that all these external systems ARE the game sometimes, which is why I'd love to see him play this game and be forced to confront his mind goblins like he used to more often. (or hear about it at least, it isnt something that need to be streamed for the world~)

[@axelskull]

easy mode unlocked

[@ryandavis4936]

kingmaker is a full on RPG tho, he's saying this is annoying in non-rpgs

[@Dracobyte]

What happened?

[@The5lacker]

You know, Pat talking about "I'm so sick of reapplying the same buffs over and over and over again" and I look over at Dragon Age, and I smile, because buffs in that game are just... permanent until turned off, and they just take a little chunk of your Stamina/Mana. It's such a nice little system. Good job, Dragon Age.

[@_Jay_Maker_]

Grim Dawn uses that mechanic as well, and it's one of the reasons why it's one of my favorite ARPG's. Time-limited buffs are such a pain in the ass unless they're _really_ strong.

[@SivTheScribe]

@@_Jay_Maker_ Yeah Grim Dawn's great. Reserving mana for your buffs is so convenient and I don't need to think about it.

[@timlerch7425]

I also like the similar system in Kingdom of Amalur. Lose some max MP, have a buff thats constantly on. Even comes with aura effects.

[@eyesfullofsky9776]

I only like buffs with durations okay if, like, they actively take advantage of the time limit. Maybe make it last three turns so that you NEED to go in once you get it active, or make it a buff that lasts, like, a certain amount of encounters. For the most part, though, it's just "I last for a minute, and you can recast me super easily whenever, no biggie" and I'm just like "...then can we just skip the recasting?" No. Recast me.

[@montablanc1]

Pat has become the perfect example of age changing a person

[@tomisabum]

"And one day it'll happen to YOU!"

[@RavenCloak13]

This isn't even age. This is his normal "Oh no, I never liked this. I was just being contrarian."

[@outwrangle]

@@RavenCloak13 That's age.

[@JorgenVonStein]

Marking out about the ability to mix and match moves from multiple trainers in Street Fighter 6 with no “auto build” feature in sight, 180s into a “I hate builds with sub par moves”, 180s again into “unless there is one perfect way to play a character” Pat is practicing verbal SPDs to use on the Cronenbergs.

[@AttemptedPants]

AutoBuild: “we trained him wrong, as a joke”

[@PotionSmeller]

One of the most deranged opinions you could expect from an RPG player, yet one of the least surprising opinions you could expect from Pat.

[@gameb9oy]

Going to be honest, while I get that it’s kinda deranged, I also can’t help but personally agree with Pat, in most games it sucks to manage a build. I find it concerning how often I agree with pat’s gaming takes as I am well aware of his lunacy

[@leithaziz2716]

I don't agree with Pat's take at all, but he also doesn't make the best arguments to support his angle if that makes sense. Like he could be unto something if he made a convincing case, but most of the time it comes off as "no, that's just Pat being Pat and now I'm lost on the conversation".

[@juultoo]

I can absolutely follow his line of logic on Kingmaker and WotR. The Pathfinder system has so much bloat and so many trap options that unless you're a tabletop veteran or look for a build online, you're probably fucked, especially so in Wrath where number bloat requires a broken build or lowered difficulty. If he were complaining that there's too many options in a game like Solasta(5e D&D) then I would say it's a brainlet take but a lot of older RPGs have the problem of too many trap options.

[@dantr14]

@@juultoo I would argue thats more a balancing problem than a issue with builds as a concept

[@weirdo3116]

His take isn't that deranged tbh. The builds thing is out of control. There's probably a middle ground though. Something like terraria is good

[@Blurredborderlines]

The absolute state of pulling a 180 because you’re too old, SBFP era Pat is rolling in his grave at his own future bastard opinions. The longer their careers go on, the more they become everything they hated and I’m here for it.

[@iller3]

It's real too... I'm hitting my mid 40's and the twitchy FPS play I used to live for is becoming something I can NEVER see myself adapting to again for the sake of a new multiplayer game (like Valorant) no matter how much "the kids" all praise it.

[@LilAnonomus]

Woolie gives up lping and gaming all together to become a pastor

[@_Jay_Maker_]

@@iller3 I'm getting to be this way with fighting games. Shit is either getting too woke and a waste of time (Strive,) or my fucking hands just can't handle the input requirements anymore (SFVI and SCVI,) and I'm too much of a stubborn bastard to use bullshit "easy" mechanics. The pain means I'm improving. Oh god.

[@iller3]

@@_Jay_Maker_ absolutely...woolie's last SF6 vid started out with him trying to put extra thumb padding on his. Y'all got my sympathy

[@Mark-xp4sr]

​@@_Jay_Maker_how on earth is Strive woke, what? What does this even have to do with the game being fun to play?

[@LessDevoid]

Pat's fallen too deep into the hole of "I'll just look up one build guide" which leads directly to "I've spent 3 hours looking up meta powergamer builds and now I'm crushed with all this ultra specific knowledge which strips the excitement of discovery."

[@carrion-fairy]

Yeah, looking up builds for PF: Kingmaker and all you get are crazy multiclass builds. I looked at it and just went pure sorcerer and was still very strong

[@Azmodeus87]

"I strongly feel like meta is an afront to games themselves!" - Absolutely not Hayao Miyazaki.

[@Boomblox5896]

Hidetaka?

[@Azmodeus87]

@@Boomblox5896 I just made up the quote, using the real quote about movement as a basis, and added the citation so as to not spread even more misinformation about Miyazaki. My apologies if it was confusing, i just made a joke to express my own feelings in a lighthearted manner.

[@Boomblox5896]

@@Azmodeus87 Nah I was leaning into the joke. Knowing the history of Pat and Woolie, bringing up Hidetaka Miyazaki would be more commonplace, even if it's in a joking manner.

[@Azmodeus87]

@@Boomblox5896 gotcha. 👍

[@lastlunarrun6418]

Pat doesn't want to be in the deep end of the pool that's understandable

[@phoneyphil5663]

Yeah, because he's short

[@Hoenhime344]

BWAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

[@Dragonsmana]

He is not comfortable with his feet not touching the bottom. Doesn't have to go far for that.

[@kyleleehufnagel]

I often swim by looking at a tutorial for the optimum swimming point allocations and spec unto butterfly stroke instead of just, you know, swimming. It’s artificial depth.

[@Dracobyte]

The pool? I require context.

[@Gojiro7]

Pats Goblin mind is poison but fascinating to watch

[@ViolacTrough]

I predict Pat playing Tears of the Kingdom and then complaining to Woolie how he can’t build anything good because the fuse mechanic is to linear or restrictive.

[@LessDevoid]

Oh fuck, you're right. Then people are going to bring up this clip and he'll say "I didn't say that, but if I did it was taken out of context."

[@unboundsky9999]

Imagine how many more games Pat would be able to enjoy if he didn’t grow up on Survival Horror games and CRPGs: the two most mind goblin validating genres in video games. You see in most games you couldn’t spec yourself into making the game impossible (unless you’re really dumb like putting every single point into a stat like luck) but in a lot of classic CRPGs, it’s super easy to screw yourself over without even realizing it.

[@iller3]

right, the whole time he was talking, all I could think was: "This man doesn't doesn't actually want RPGs, he just wants MORE ResEvil"

[@Dragonsmana]

It honestly feels like Pat has in some ways morphed into the hyperbolic/hypothetical version of the game journalist he would make fun of in the old days. To focus on Monster Hunter specifically here, Layered armor exists if your problem is you want to look cool while still being meta. Second, meta is for min/maxing so your request for default to be good enough is fulfilled with the armor as-is. You just don't like the fact the meta exists at all. Same with meals. Just a small, extra buff that helps but is not be all/ end all as it disappears on faint, so its not built to be required. TLDR: Pat hates meta exists becaus as some else pointed out, he only sees games as purely a job he doesn't want to think about while doing, and: The greatest lie Pat ever told was that his mind goblins no longer exist.

[@Blurredborderlines]

That should have been the title of this clip, or rather, the entire podcast episode imo.

[@Kool212]

I'm a MonHun scrub so please correct me. Is the canteen completely skippable? I got tired of it so fast.

[@Dragonsmana]

@@Kool212 I would say its recommended but not required. Anything is perfectly doable without eating. Especially if you are in early game and want to save on money/points. Personally I use it mainly for the health and stamina boost and not having to eat a steak/ration or anything when the quest starts. The attack/def buffs and Felyne skills I take as bonus, the fact they are pseudo random means its not worth stressing over what you get or don't. To use an appropriate food analogy, the food stuff is your sauce, not the entree. If your issue is the cutscene, that is also easily skippable with the appropriate button. The animations are nice and fun, but they do get old fast especially if you are doing a lot of hunting lol.

[@Dragonsmana]

@@Kool212 Also to add to this, as an aside since you didn't specify World/Iceborne or Rise/Sunbreak. If it is W/IB I'd say its slightly more important due to fact the meals give you Health and Stamina additions that consumables can give you, it just saves some time and items when you start the quest. Again, nice but not required. But if you are referencing the Dango from Rise/Sunbreak, yeah that is even MORE skippable. Dango purely is for Felyne skills, the most buffs you really get from those are mostly elemental defense boosts, and even then, you aren't 100% guaranteed to get them upon eating it. The chances are high (85%) but not absolute lol.

[@wadespencer3623]

@@Dragonsmana Only time canteen is basically needed is when you have an egg carrying mission and NEED that one that makes it so you don't break the egg when you drop.

[@masonpellazar6543]

Pat complaining about building characters incorrectly is rather funny since that's something he LITERALLY was praising PF for: The ability to fuck up your character

[@GoldenKaos]

I don’t recall that being *praise*

[@gorimbaud]

i think there's a difference between appreciating the freedom to fuck up your character and disliking that the auto-builds will always fuck up your character for you

[@JackButcherr]

you misremembered that

[@Dracobyte]

PF? Pathfinder?

[@gorimbaud]

@@Dracobyte Pathfinder: Kingmaker specifically, I believe.

[@DoctorHomicide]

This explains why Pat doesn’t like card games like Yugioh. Though I guess this makes a ton of stuff make a-lot more sense

[@AceKuper]

I don't think it does. We had months of Pat talking about liking Legends of Runeterra, Marvel Snap and Slay The Spire. Sure he most likely was netdeckign to some extent, but at that point i don't see a reason why he played those game sin the first place, cause they are about making a build you like or one that works best and beating stuff with it.

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

​@Ace Kuper To be fair he literally talked about how easy it is to get into Marvel Snap because the decks you make only have 12 distinct cards.

[@AceKuper]

@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero ​ @NeutralGuyDoubleZero Yes, that's exactly my point. Pat doesn't dislike builds, Pat dislikes thinking and loosing, cause it makes him feel stupid and like he wasted time. If he just said that i would be fine with it. But him saying "I disliked builds in everything since FF tactics" is complete bullshit.

[@jariu9612]

@@AceKuper TO BE FAIR in FFTactics a surpassingly high number of people got fucked in the duel because their Ramza wasn't up to snuff, so it's not all hot air.

[@AceKuper]

@@jariu9612 Sure, it's completely irrelevant to the current actual discussion, but that's true. I mean people got fucked by going the wrong way in Dark Souls 1, but it doesn't help Pat's points about builds at all.

[@RavenCloak13]

People talking about Pat's change, meanwhile Woolie wants a Steamy.

[@mika9578]

Demondrug and Armorskin minimize the problem by staying active until death

[@AncelDeLambert]

the issue comes in (at least with World, where it mattered) with farming the parts for the Mega version is exhaustively tedious. Yeah, they made getting the megas a little easier in Iceborne to get, but then they ROCKETED the skill ceiling to the moon by the end which makes the whole conversation not only go back to the start but full reverse into the garage door. Those last few dragons really raise the question of "why am I farming these items just to die and waste them"

[@Dragonsmana]

@@AncelDeLambert while I agree Nourishing Extract farm is a massive pain in the ass. They aren't completely necessary. The difference is only +2 points between normal and mega demondrugs. Even Fatalis can be accomplished with understanding the fight and a relatively basic setup, and I say this after failing countless times and now being able to do the fight comfortably. Same with Alatreon, however that one with being the one monster in the franchise to FORCE elemental damage is something I hate, even if I enjoy the fight itself. I don't really do mix sets, and know while they can minmax things, I am glad they don't feel forced if you are willing to take a few Ls and wrap your head around the fight. Also, abandoning a quest is an option as it restores the items you used, at the expense of loosing your time and anything you picked up in the quest

[@Zangelin]

PAT DOESNT LIKE TEMPORARY BUFFS

[@MattManDX1]

@@Zangelin It's only temporary if you suck

[@mika9578]

@@Zangelin simply do not die and it wont be temporary, shrimple as that

[@Acrobuster]

Man, I get what Pat's saying, but I don't have the decision paralysis or optimization fixation that he has, so build crafting is like 40% of the fun in RPGs for me along with story and exploration. I tend to skip non JRPGs with fixed characters. Buff rotations can GO though, so annoying! Also MMO rotations are why I have no interest in playing them. Maybe I wanna be that ice mage ;_;

[@FishSkeleton-]

I love designing a build, but only if it's not too granular. Nothing is less exciting than something like 1% haste or crit or whatever per point, give me a skill or a passive ability or something. However, I do completely agree that the 'average' or 'default' build (especially in games with auto-skill allocation and such) needs to be decent if not good. There's no fun to just plain having a bad character, especially if it's costly or impossible to recustomize their talent points or whatever.

[@shreddershades1198]

Pat doesn't mention it, not sure if he played dead island 1. But dead island 1 is more build focused, where as in 2 it's more about the character you pick.

[@JagrasSneedandFeed]

Characters were pretty hard tied to their build in 1 though were they not? You had throwing guy, blunt guy, blade girl, and gun/blade girl. I could be remembering wrong, it's been years since I played it

[@shreddershades1198]

@sonicweegee you're right, I just remember there being 3 skill trees per character. I think each one revolved around the characters main gimmick, but you could still do some different stuff.

[@raccoonofmotivation20]

I feel like pokemon would actually give pat a stroke if he tried making a "build" there

[@hyperon_ion9423]

The day I realized that you have to either memorize each of your Pokémon’s entire move pool or risk accidentally making them forget their best moves was the day I stopped playing Pokémon games altogether.

[@Dragonsmana]

@@hyperon_ion9423 Thankfully, starting with Arceus (and now Scarlet and Violet) you can 100% freely swap out learned moves! I have been a lapsed fan for a very long time, and when I got into Arceus I saw that was a feature, and see its going to keep that going forward (to quote theold channel "I'm back in!"), it makes things much more fun and interesting. Especially when going up against raids or gyms or whatever. Respecing your moves just adds so much more flavor and removes so much unneeded stress from combat encounters.

[@andy12345678912]

messing with IVs and EVs, natures, egg moves, and abilities are all such major pain in the asses, especially when some pokemon want to evolve way later than you could, like how you don't want to evolve your Growlithe too early since Arcanine doesn't learn any moves.

[@plinfan6541]

@@hyperon_ion9423 Which is kinda funny, considering the games are so baby easy that going through going "Haha, water hurty fire, fire hurty grass, grass hurty water!" just lets you curbstomp the game with zero indepth knowledge required.

[@ShayneRawls]

Nope. He'd just look up Rain TEAM or X team or Y team and copy someone else's team

[@SoaringLettuce]

I want builds in games where that's the point. Half my fun in Armored Core is the garage. Back when i played Gran Turismo 4, figuring out how to make a mid car into a perfect fit for a track was great. But they don't fit everywhere.

[@kingragnarok7302]

That's not how it works Pat, your child won't come with an established build you'll have to create the build!

[@TheTrueRandomGamer]

Kinda want a poyo hotdog now.

[@Sayiism]

I'm glad that I avoid this problem specifically by simply just not caring what the meta is and enjoying building stuff that I want. That only becomes a problem in something like Path of Exile where the skill tree is completely fucked unless you netdeck something crazy.

[@ShayneRawls]

I feel like that's what the designers intended

[@dangerchrist123]

The Wow classic buffs get even crazier. You could drop specific quest items to give everyone (in the server/faction/city, I don't remember) a buff - which lead to people like a guildie of mine being the server liaison for ensuring that buffs could be dropped at specific designated times so everyone could collect their buffs.

[@TheTankbus]

For real, pat's description didn't even scratch the surface of how goofy it got in WoW classic.

[@ultimatehamsandwich734]

Vanilla WoW was such a travesty in how the game was ACTUALLY played when compared to how u think it was meant to be played.

[@managarn8038]

hoh my guild during classic had a discord and excel sheet for the big guilds to coordinate that lmao.

[@LilAnonomus]

Pat doesnt like games mixing genres. He wants to keep them pure.

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

The king mind goblin itself. I'm baffled but it still make sense. The man doesn't want any semblance of choice or else his OCD literally paralyzes him. He just wants someone else to do it for him so he doesn't have to think while streaming, which he has internalized as a job and nothing more.

[@Sercotani]

can't wait to see how he handles PoE 2. Either he just doesn't play it (good for him) or he tries it, hates it, shits on it, and I get to eat a bag of popcorn while he goes all in.

[@PotionSmeller]

He's a powergamer who's slave to the meta, but he doesn't want to do any theorycrafting himself because he's deathly afraid of getting it wrong, so he can only play an rpg if someone else has made the optimal build for him to copy.

[@snipingtacos12]

​@@PotionSmeller what's wrong with not wanting to have your time wasted? Why isn't he allowed to be able to just open a game and have fun

[@iMoD190]

​@@snipingtacos12 being sub-optimal is not a waste of time, games are not designed for every player to make 100% optimal decisions. also he clearly stated that this stuff isn't fun for him.

[@PotionSmeller]

@@snipingtacos12 At some point you gotta realize that being afraid you're wasting your time because you chose 1 suboptimal skill is just mind goblin on your part. For most people who like these games, theorycrafting is enjoyable, not a chore they begrudgingly get over with.

[@GodammmitKalcour]

Pat reminding me of my Stormblood Prepull for Summoner where I had to use Ifrit's ability 17 seconds before a pull to make sure Garuda used Her debuff at a specific time with no animation loss.

[@SpaceElvisInc]

than it didn't matter because pets ai

[@danidm5820]

I am either fully on the same page or the polar opposite, and it depends entirely on one thing: can I, at any point in the game, no matter how long I played, turn my character into the most meta option possible? If the answer is yes (Monster Hunter), I'll just play it by ear until I hit a wall and then I'll check out some guides. If I am locked in with my choices at earlier levels, I'll just follow a guide for a meta build from minute 1, and at that point you might as well let me choose a character at the start and automate the process.

[@thotacon]

I love builds and customization in my games more than anything. I usually go for fashion over meta, but it is always fun to turn your character into a walking nuke.

[@WeaponOfMyDestructio]

A Montreal steamy sounds like taking a dump on the street corner.

[@iller3]

I scrolled down soooo far to find this, and it was worth it

[@suburbhermit8792]

FINALLY, FF12 gets recognition on its INCREDIBLE Gambit system. Finally!!!

[@Pyromania-ew8jp]

Pats biggest w take: "putting rpg things in games that aren't rpgs. done with it." It genuinely does ruin many games that would have been fantastic otherwise

[@iMoD190]

Pat loves role playing games, hates role playing.

[@Samael1113]

Two people claiming they love RPGs, spend years waxing nostalgic about and deep-diving cRPGs and tRPGs and making / playing just terrible characters. Quickly proceed to Describe how they would strip RPG elements out of their perfect RPG game and turn it in to an adventure game. Basically an open-world Ubisoft game.

[@DeadEye935]

The thing about FFs with the job system is that none of them ever expect you to be very calculated with how you build your characters. They're not too hard, so it lets you experiment a lot, while also having the space for challenge runs where you play with restrictions while also being able to hyper optimize your builds and break the game in half. Meanwhile I feel like a lot of DnD based RPGs tend to be decently hard, especially early on, so you basically have to know the systems inside and out before you even play the game

[@Kango234]

That's exactly where I stand on this.

[@Roronoa2zoro]

I thought Pat was going to say something sensible like: RPG elements in games that aren't RPGs and that just lock you out of the most fun abilities for no reason when your character isn't even supposed to fill a niche in a party of characters with different abilities are dumb. I wasn't expecting "No, all character building sucks and I hate it". I really like RPGs. I like making my character either very different or a little different from the last time I played by tinkering with stats and abilities. But it has to be in context. Games where my character is alone and where I can unlock every skill in the tree by the end are what's bad in my opinion because there's nothing to differentiate one playthrough from another. In those cases I'd also rather just have a pre-made character with linear skill progression.

[@awsomesaucekirby]

So, I remember how smash 4 had alternate moves for all the characters, and I really liked that. I liked how I could play a frost breath kirby, or a very different pit or bowser setup. I liked those build options.

[@wolflance64]

Pat brought up card game builds so this is topical, pokemon tcg after 20 years finally made starter decks that actually function at a mid level instead of suck completely

[@imlaffytaffy]

I also wish that the prebuilt class option wasn't garbage, maybe not the best, maybe a little too generalized to go above normal difficulty, but good enough to get you through the game the first time without having to spend 10-20 hours researching the current build meta to make sure you haven't soft locked yourself out of the the final 25% of the game because you didn't pick the correct fighting stance at 3rd level so your dps isn't high enough to plow through that one encounter you have to have on your own. Oh well, I'll keep dreaming

[@iller3]

The main concept Pat is bouncing off here, is called "Abnegation". Someone who spends 10's of *THOUSANDS* of hours in only one or two of these games with "buffing rituals" and Treadmills of grind just to GET the builds unlocked for specializing like this is not living out a power fantasy or adventure. They're practicing an Artform. It's like entering a zen like state, but some of that state is self denial, punishment, creative self-harm.

[@99sins]

the builds take is actual derangement but the consumable buffs talk had some meat to it. The main issue I have is also that whole mandatory/effectively mandatory nature of it vs. what Woolie likes where you're basically spending resources to lower the difficulty on something you're otherwise supposed to be able to tackle raw. When the armor talon and power talon (as well as drinking the potions) is a basically mandatory ritual each respawn, just give me the damn buff permanently instead of pretend any of it is actually a resource (or at least make it a temporary thing like power/armor pills) for the psycho's who want to min/max mid combat.

[@kyleleehufnagel]

“Everyone who doesn’t like artificial depth has mental illness.” - a very cool normal guy who doesn’t look up a min/max guide

[@WestPictures]

The best way to play arpgs the first time is not to worry about your build too much. However, the mind goblins get me sometimes with replaying the game and I look up good builds to see what's possible. There are a lot of people who spend thousands of hours optimizing the math in arpgs

[@joshbored15]

Depends a lot on the arpg in question. I have seen dozens of people get hard stuck on a path of exile chapter and quit, only to come back next season after googling a build and steamroll the entire game in a few sessions

[@DetectiveSkimble]

I can understand where Pat is coming from, where actively going through the process of building something is anxiety on if you are doing it right or not and feeling frustrated when what you're doing is either doing things the worst way possible or not in a way you find fun. Where I think the biggest divide is for Pat and a lot more of us is, we find enjoyment in making those mistakes. I, personally, am alright playing a game and accidentally ending up with a useless skill or one that actively harms me. Would I be happy? No. But in a game that has in depth character builds that allow you to fully create a unique character, I find a sense of excitement in making due with a bad skill or bad choice and overcoming the weaknesses of my character. That's my character, that's my situation to overcome and deal with, and I find it satisfying to overcome it. I'm fine with being less powerful if it means I can customize my character how I like. I'm not interested in the meta of a game and I will hardly ever go online and look at what the 'optimal build' for something is. To me there is never a wrong way to build a class. Really the only wrong way I see it is if your class is unable to make progress, then you need to change stuff up or come up with a different attack plan. Now if a game railroads a player into only a specific class or not, that's kind of a different argument altogether and I feel that's at fault of the game in question.

[@GoldenKaos]

If I pick a bad skill, for a game I am probably only going to play the once, I might as well start over without respec

[@iamnuff1992]

I think the biggest divide between Pat and normal people is that normal people realize that 99% of games are still completable without an optimal build. You don't need a guide open in front of you. You can just muddle through and it'll work out.

[@EbonMaster]

@@iamnuff1992 This 100% A large majority of these games were made to be completed by game journalists with the skill points damn near randomly thrown around the tree. I can beat it with a suboptimal build just fine. Hell I may even find that the suboptimal build is a bit more fun on some ways.

[@iamnuff1992]

@@EbonMaster I'm convinced that Pat played one game when he was young that completely fucked him on this and he's never trusted one since. Maybe Baldur's gate 1? I didn't touch it when I was little, but I remember a meme about how playing as a wizard can lock you in the tutorial because it forces you into a trap that does an unavoidable pittance of damage, but level 1 wizards can have like 4hp so you might just die instantly.

[@Samm815]

@@iamnuff1992 That's why you always start with 16 CON.

[@1wayroad935]

Builds are fine. It's the tendency for sweats to optimize the fun out of a game that is usually the problem.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

Or for designers to cater only to those sweats and nothing else I like building characters, but the UX for doing it has almost been universally terrible. Games either assume too much or too little familiarity from the audience. It feels like you either get a 90s PC RPG styled mess, or a SKYRIM style skill tree

[@goztboy]

I think it's an attitude thing. A casual player can ruin their fun by not allowing themselves to play sub-optimally despite that being what they want to do (like Pat described with Monster Hunter), and a sweat can have fun speed clearing something ludicrously fast because they optimized every facet of their gameplay from the buildcrafting level to the combat itself. I'm like Pat, I've always preferred wearing a full set in Monster Hunter despite it not being the way to go, and still have a ton of fun with the games. And the more recent ones let you dress up however you want too so you don't have to wear a clown suit anymore.

[@MattManDX1]

Isn't Vampire Survivors all about making builds? As in like, the actual playable parts of the game are moving your character around and then making their build as they level up? Pat seemed to like that game.

[@AceKuper]

He also liked Hades and other Rogue likes. The "I don't like builds since FF tactics" is one of the total bullshit parts, it's just a thing Pat says without actually thinking about it. Most the things besides "Some CRPGs have shitty default auto-builds" and "Non RPG games don't need RPG elements" are completely self Pat inflicted things that are mostly untrue for majority of people, cause games allow completion and enjoyment without min\maxing.

[@Garl_Vinland]

And yet in Final Fantasy Tactics, there are OBJECTIVELY better and over powered builds.

[@dmastermanga]

I love how hard he gives FF14 a pass for some crazy reason, especially right before describing a system that perfectly matches what he's shaking his fist at in the clouds. "BUT, you see it is actually is not, for the very traditional rpg build system I have described is within a game I fan-boy over, therefore it is not what I dislike!"

[@SerbianKnifeFight]

I mean this with complete sincerity and no ill will towards pat, but i think *pat just hates thinking*. Any time something requires decision making (choosing between doing different combos in FGs with different effects on health vs advantage vs stun; building a deck and planning ahead; making builds at all apparently) Pat shuts down cause the fear of making a bad decision is more powerful than the fun of learning and becoming better through trial and error.

[@Eidlones]

He hates making a choice that will later turn out to be wrong, when he had no idea that it would be. Like, in Elden Ring. I went strength, and like 80% of the gear I found was for Int. I felt like I made a bad build, cause I didn't pick the correct thing without having any indication that it was.

[@Blurredborderlines]

@@Eidlones Alternatively, Int. *needs* that much equipment because you’re extremely fragile until mid-late game, STR. requires almost nothing because Bonk just works in 99% of every situation.

[@Eidlones]

@Blurredborderlines My point is that there's factors that can't be known, that can and will punish you for choosing wrong. I just used Elden Ring as an example

[@AncelDeLambert]

no, he hates the game punishing him for not thinking CORRECTLY and he resents the, not just possibility but, near CERTAINTY that it will in many cases. A build should be an act of self-expression and mechanical exploration, not a pass/fail test

[@SerbianKnifeFight]

@Eidlones unsure if I would use elden ring as an example, with the exception of the arcane stat I felt like there was so much for every build. I played through it with like 6 different characters and I was always getting stuff for other builds.

[@SiegmundCG]

It is super fun making builds in Last Epoch. You can make anything you want work, every spell has a sphere grid for itself, you can make very good loot filters for easy auto-pick-up, and most importantly, extremely easy respecs. That's really all you need to never worry about this and just have fun. Plus you don't need to suck up to any KZbinr theorycrafter to make a build for you like in Path of Exile.

[@KittensAreDope]

totally, just recently picked up last epoch myself and have been loving it. They've struck a really good balance between sweating and chilling when it comes to the planning/decision making. Also a big fan of the way they have skills starting levels raise with your character level but lagging just a bit behind. Respeccing is always accessible but having to go a couple levels back still incentivizes you to commit to your choices without feeling locked in

[@SiegmundCG]

​@@KittensAreDope Hell yeah it's honestly very close a perfect system IMO. Love it

[@jadewukong]

I understand not wanting to learn that there is a "meta" build for every game cuz then everyone just does the meta and no one does anything interesting or make unique builds. I remember literally shaking and panicking when I was with a guild party in secret world back in the day before they made build changes and the veteran players in the guild at the time were commenting on my build and items (they had a feature where you could click on a character and see their equips.) and they were nice enough to say they'd help me out but I wanted to explore solo and do things myself but the fact that my build is what was holding me back so much was depressing.

[@leithaziz2716]

Me finding out most ER streamers I watch just use a mixture of Mimic Tear, Moonveil, some bleed build, or all of the above. In a game with so many weapons, something felt really off about experiencing that.

[@phoneyphil5663]

Hey Skyrim players, hope you like Stealth Archer

[@GermanKinsmen]

@@leithaziz2716 "Most ER streamers" lol. Most Elden Ring streamers are either speedrunners or people doing "Beating the game with only my dick" challenge runs.

[@Rathial]

Still kinda weird that pat doesn't like the whole builds thing since it's basically just min maxing which I'd assume he would be all for. Maybe its the whole you have to play x build or you are bad kinda thing that turns him off it.

[@aftertone3146]

Pat's thing is that he doesn't like be doing a thing, turned out to be wrong, and be punished for it when he was just playing the way he chose to. To a degree I understand and it really might come down to game balancing. Unfortunately, in a game where "gameplay choices matter" theres bound to be good or bad skills based on game balance. Which is why he also prefaces that those games are still good and should still have those things.

[@FuryXDMGS]

"FF6 was the correct choice, just let my characters build their own solid builds" Well that would explain the mysterious rise of autobattlers and afk mobile games

[@lloyd011721]

i love games that let you min max and do builds.... because you can choose not to do things that are super complex if you wanted to, but also if you did want to run various builds it kept the games fresher for longer

[@jtnachos16]

Builds aren't a problem, so long as they are an optional late-game thing instead of requiring a good build just for the story content to feel accessible. Even in that category, you can KIND OF fix it by letting people respec. Where you really run into issues with builds, is where the game isn't providing options for builds that function without specific gear synergies. THOSE are a mistake. Games that have obtuse mechanics that can throw a wrench in the build down the line without warning are an issue as well. 9/10, it's not the builds that are a problem, it's the other things around it. That said, I feel like Pat is wrong on his initial take, because he's missing the point of a 'rogue-lite/roguelike' game. He's also at least honest about it being a him problem, where his mind goblins won't let him ignore what is 'optimal'.

[@admcleo]

Builds only work if there's an actual choice. If a developer 'requires' you to have one of like 10 builds with maybe 1 or 2 deviations out of billions of possible combinations it isn't actually a choice. You aren't playing the game anymore, the game is playing you.

[@AClockworkWizard]

To Woolie's point about buffing in MMOs: that was my exact experience with Lineage 2. A party would need a specific set of buffing classes and every 20 minutes everything stops while the cleric classes cast like 20 different buffs. I also played on a hacked server for a while that allowed you to multiclass (i.e. level whatever class to max lvl, reset to a lvl1 of a different class keeping the previous class abilities, repeat ad nauseum) where PVP fights involved two dudes casting every single buff on themselves for 10 minutes before one one-shot the other.

[@ElvenSonic]

18:00 But in the case of Baldurs Gate, that’s absolutely incorrect. Aside from casters (which eh? arguably also the case with them too since the players don’t choose the spells they find while adventuring) AD&D characters were a class with no options outside what they got by default from level ups. This was because progression in AD&D was based around what your characters found and earned via treasure and magic items, with systems for high political kingdom building at higher levels (that allegedly nobody but me played with). Baldurs Gate had the problem of tweaking the system to work like a video game (specifically like diablo 2), which it was never intended for. 3E was the edition that added granular character building and customization with unplayable trap options and broken synergies. And its been like that ever since, and it will never go back since the expectation now is that your character sheet is four pages and you spent your whole week of free time prior to session 1 designing your entire character’s build up to max level for the campaign. … and then they forced the gm to use those same granular character building options for every monster in the game and I gave up!

[@Azymyth]

Pat’s problem with Baldur’s Gate wasn’t the customization but the fact each encounter required setting up the same buffs in order to succeed. I get where he’s coming from there: if it’s the exact same set up every single time with no variation, then it’s just tedious

[@ElvenSonic]

@@Azymyth Yes, he did explain the baldurs gate buff problem, but in the context of this specific bit he’s saying specifically “I hated creating characters in baldurs gate” and conjoining that to “AD&D 2e was a bad system to make characters in because it was too granular.” He’s done this before in other clips talking about baldurs gate. Which, as stated earlier, I do agree baldurs gate has a lot of problems with adding granularity and options where they weren’t intended in the original tabletop system. But Pat doesn’t have the awareness of tabletop so he’s criticizing the original game system he hasn’t experienced.

[@Kradily]

Layered armor leaves the chat Layered armor-Chan: I was legit MADE to cure your mind goblins and you throw me under the bus!

[@gtdfg4594]

Funny thing is that what Pat described is exactly why I love my favorite games: Megaman Battle Network, Pokémon, Diablo 2, newer Fire Emblems, Terraria, SaGa, SMT and even Yugioh. Building up my character with the options available and testing them out feels amazing. Deckbuilding and understanding the game's mechanics through your decks is so intoxicating that the only Shovel Knight I've played is King of the Cards, lmao.

[@AceKuper]

Never enjoyed builds since Final Fantasy Tactics. Sure, let's just ignore recent past of " Gotta try Elden Ring with a new build, gotta try different stats in Disco Elysium". I'm sure other people can bring up other examples. I wonder if we are at the point there Pat actually buys into his own bullshit to much, he doesn't realize he contradicts himself on a monthly if not weekly basis.

[@Dragonsmana]

We may at least be nearing the event horizon of Pat climbing into his own ass, as Woolie put it in Snailborne several years ago lol

[@AncelDeLambert]

Y'know, it would help to actually LISTEN to complaints, instead of making up your own version in your head of his issue

[@AceKuper]

@@AncelDeLambert The whole problem is i listen to what Pat complains about and i know the actual issue isn't the thing Pat described on this podcast. Nor it's the issue in the way he described it, cause he has thrown everything under the same blanket. But i'm also tired of we need an interpreter from Pat's insane exaggerated take to a human mild take, so it seems reasonable. Only for Pat to repeat the same thing with another take later. The problem with Pat's take is it's the equivalent of people reacting to everything he says with "Pat's takes were always shit and he is always wrong". Dude is almost 40 and he is having a kid, i'm not saying we should hold him to a higher standard with his takes about such absolutely important topic as videogames. But i'm tired of people excusing every extreme take Pat has as if he's a kid that's trying to express his own opinion for the first time and words are hard. Especially since you know it's wrong since he contradicted himself months if not weeks ago. He made a stupid exaggerated take, that's it. I would love if we had less of that. No more no less.

[@kyleleehufnagel]

@@AncelDeLambert they will never do that, then how could they feel arbitrarily superior; a thing they need because they are deeply insecure. “I suck but at least I don’t suck as bad as this stranger whose opinions I made up by misunderstanding and mischaracterizing their views.”

[@Akaritomi]

My obsession with games like Pillars is instead of building to the class (tanky support Paladin or sneaky assassin rogue) I make niche builds from other sources. Example: Dual pistol Barbarian (corpse eater) / Wizard (default) with spells/skills that drain health to heal me and make killed enemies resurrect as allies (Alucard from Hellsing). It's not perfect but good RNG makes fights a breeze.

[@PotionSmeller]

Yeah I love looking through skill choices and trying to come up with synergies. That's probably the best part of CRPGs for me. For example in PoE2 I built a rogue (street fighter)/wizard (default) that relied on using the blunderbuss' toggle ability to trigger street fighter's passive and abuse combusting wounds + blunderbuss combo for massive damage.

[@syrushbluhr]

I wish there is a game that just in the map tells you which areas you can excell or not with your current build, and update after making adjustment. That would allow the player to just adjust little when you get new stuff around the same build. An better addition would be combine that you editable presets.

[@Picia000123]

I fucking love making my own builds. When I started Underrail, I chose standard difficulty and after a couple hours I hit a wall so hard, that for the first time in a LONG while I was contemplating starting over with a better build in a video game, period. But THEN I chose putting points in pickpocketing as my last level up and managed to bounce back and do everything I could in the game from that point on. That moment when you figure out your jankass build just enough to hang on, finish the fight and complete the game is some of the most satisfaction I've got out of RPGs in general, including Diablo1/2, Baldur's Gate 1/2, Arcanum, Planescape, Fallout 1/2/3/NV, Witcher 1/2/3, you name it. I understand and feel for Pat's point of view, but hell naw, gimme ALL this shit, I love it.

[@DKZK21]

I'm the exact opposite of this, I hit that wall moment where my build wasn't enough and then abandoned the game for a couple of years before trying again. Did that about three times, different blind attempt at a build each time, before accepting the game was not made for me, which sucks cuz I really like the world and writing. The only lesson I got out of my experience is that I shouldn't have gone back and tried again after the first time.

[@rupo450]

Hearing Pat talk about how cumbersome pre-fight buffs were in XIV is hilarious because XIV's design philosophy was build around everything they learned from XI. And one of those lessons was "do not make fights rely on buffs". Because you would stand around LFG shouting for a party, waiting to get a Bard or a Corsair. If you didn't have a bard or corsair you just didn't go out. You stood there for hours hoping you could get one. And pre-fight buffs required swapping buffers in and out of an alliance. Get the Gjallarhorn bard to Soul Voice all three parties, have the corsair phantom roll everyone, every DPS pops every buff they have, kill the mob before your buffs wear, fail, hope the Corsair can reset the Bard's soul voice and try to get buffs up again.

[@notsoy]

The icons in the thumbnail are all weapons from old WoW expansions lmao Specifically from back before the talent system got overhauled, even!

[@inuyasha54325]

Woolie No! The Steamer's in Cleveland have nothing to do with hotdogs😦

[@MarbleThumbs]

It's how I felt about God Of War (2018). Give me the skills as I go along, let me freely switch between them all, scrap the armour and the incremental stat boost runes.

[@DKZK21]

GOW 2018 commits the bigger sin of being deceptive in its complexity, imo. They add all of these stats to the gear that you can wear, making you think there is some sort of balance at play, but really the only thing that matters is that you wear the rarest equipment you can find so that your overall "Rarity level" is as high as it can be, which will boost your total damage and defense so much more than the numerical values in the gear does, rendering the stats absolutely worthless outside of rarity.

[@MarbleThumbs]

@@DKZK21 True, the disconnect between player choice and chasing the rarity number is wild.

[@Tsunamidusher]

I wonder if Pat would like Bravely Default 2, all four characters have set starting stats that lead them to fill certain roles.

[@Noxshade]

The supreme irony of saying that you want a fighting game character select when they were talking about how SF6 is going to have all sorts of crazy custom fighters and you can, in fact, actually fight someone else's avatar freak... SF6 will have builds! On another note, it does make sense that builds are a breaking point for Pat. I enjoy sussing things out in MtG decks and thinking of synergistic RPG builds, but it's something I like once I'm deep into the game after years and years of playing. For a streamer getting into a game for a month, week or even a single day, it's got to be supremely annoying to hit a talent tree and be told to read all of it before deciding what you want to do. If he wasn't a streamer jumping from game to game and entertaining an audience, he might be able to dig down into one game and have fun trying tons of stuff and exploring the space of one game, but that doesn't make for as good variety programing; this week alone he talked about playing like 6 different games.

[@ShotgunGabe]

man i love builds this is why i still play payday, your character build based on your age. dodge build goes for old people who wants to try new game but still have that doom within them and grinder is for cod children who lock sitting still and regenerate health both i used and enjoy and many more builds.

[@starwars90001]

Hates builds but loves Fallout? I get Fallout New Vegas allows for any build to be useful and it has other stuff but still. (I would think would be a JRPG main then.

[@krodmandoon3479]

None of the real Fallouts, obviously

[@AceKuper]

Pat's during Elden Ring or Disco Elysium- gotta make a new build and try it out. There is no way i wouldn't sound like an asshole with my next sentence, cause it is an asshole thing to say, but it's also true. Pat doesn't dislike builds, Pat dislikes thinking, loosing and feels like he is wasting time when that happens, cause it makes him feel stupid.

[@gradmeister8546]

He liked build porn in Pathfinder, so he probably just forgot that he likes build variety.

[@alsaiduq4363]

Fallout is more tame compared to games like Pathfinder or Pillars. Generaly your build can be simple as GUN and Speench and work just fine unlike Pathfinder where you take 1 Level of Monk , Vivisectionist and Loremaster, 13 of Paladin and 4 of thief, then have pick the right feats and spells.

[@alsaiduq4363]

@@AceKuper Pat dislike taking L for the consequences of his actions.

[@axelskull]

having lots of fun and unique playstyles is the best.

[@fable23]

There's one other time where the minutes long buffing ritual is cool actually; when you're playing a game like Elden Ring, and you spend nearly a minute standing outside the fog gate casting various multiplicative damage buffs with different durations and animation lengths in order to create a perfect five-second window where all the buffs overlap and you can walk up to the boss and kill them _instantly._

[@katsasgeorge]

While I can understand Pat's concerns due to mind goblins and the like, two points. First off, I am SO glad that he isn't the majority in this :P Secondly, I am on Pat's side on this, if you ain't having fun, don't play. However, it took me some time to realize that like Pat, I went into games like this with the wrong mindset. You don't build ONE character in RPGs, you try multiple ones and the one you start with is pretty much a stepping stone for the other ones. Once I realized that, I had way more fun.

[@CaptainTechnicalityLP]

Something that I think got kind of lost here is that with deckbuilders in general, but especially with Backpack Hero, the build is the game. All the mechanics of the game are around how you build the character and it doesn't really make sense to have the game without them. It can still be not for you but there isn't really a version of the game without that. This is also just me, but I think the way deckbuilders do "builds" is a lot better than the way a lot of other types of games do builds. I want unique special effects that trigger (Pat mentioned cleaver builds so I'll use that as the example), I want stuff like "activate all cleavers diagonally to this one" and if you have to have a % in there, it better be a multiple of fucking 50 (like the chef's hat that adds +50% damage to all the cleavers below it). It's so much more interesting than games that are like "this perk gives you +3% damage to enemies that are on fire" or whatever.

[@rollinnollin546]

The main issue with builds in CRPGs is that the game expects you to make critical decisions about your character before you’ve started playing the game. The games punish you for not understanding it’s mechanics…but like, how was I supposed to? Soulslikes and most JRPGs are better because you tend to make these decisions over the course of the game, where an early mistake has comparatively low impact, or hopefully you have some sort of respec option. Rogue likes are also fine in this regard because you’re expected to fail and restart a ton of times, then eventually get a grasp of the mechanics.

[@kingofbel6499]

lol thats not me at all. When I first played Pathfinder Kingmaker, I legit spent the first 3h just building characters and testing them out to see which build I enjoyed the most. Build customization is pretty much the main reason I play crpgs.

[@TheSimpleMan454]

I actually had this conversation *explode* at one of my open tables the other day. Because there were two dudes there who were absolute power gamers who wanted to optimize the fun right the fuck outta the game, but everybody else just wanted to play a fuckin' mech game on tabletop, so everyone just picked their mechs, picked their guns and said "let's start playing the giant mech vs bugs game now." And these two dudes went apeshit, and I had to tell them everything that Pat's said so far in this video, because they kept refusing to leave my fuckin' table and kept arguing with me until the floor supervisor kicked them out.

[@GermanKinsmen]

"Two dudes were putting too much effort into their sheets and we were impatient so we kicked them out".

[@TheSimpleMan454]

@@GermanKinsmen It wasn't character sheets, I was how they were trying to micromanage everyone else's *actual* playing the game. And it wasn't us kicking them out, it was the floor supervisor who kicked them out *because* they kept getting beligerent with the rest of us.

[@princeshadow13]

It sounds like Pat misses old school Final Fantasy

[@tcupps1]

So, for pathfinder the buff situation does make sense cause in the actual tabletop you just tell your dm that your casting this spell every morning and write it permanently on your character sheet, or for shorter duration spells if you know combat is going to start soon you can just ask your dm "do I have time to buff?" and have a second character sheet for if you are or are not buffed both of these take seconds in meatspace but in universe may take several minutes each time.

[@HerpDerpTheTank]

League of Legends, for all it’s faults, does address this problem by changing everything up every six months, and having small tweaks, nerfs, and balance patches in-between. The problem is that they create all new problems, like a high skill floor, returning players having no clue what the fuck is what anymore, and my personal favorite: The Meta Slaves. Like Fashion in the real world, every time there’s a change in the meta, there’s a bunch of loud, obnoxious players going “CRIT BUILDS ARE OUT, LETHALITY IS SO IN” or “OMG YOU’RE BUILDING ATTACK SPEED WHEN YOU NEED ARMOR PEN, ATTACK SPEED DIED TWO PATCHES AGO!” Also like Fashion, you have “influencers,” people who come up with crazy combinations that work for them because they are good at the game, and suddenly everyone copycats their build without knowing how to use it to it’s fullest advantage, and by then you can wave goodbye to your Ranked Games.

[@AshendWield]

I think the phrase, "I'm tired of builds now." is the key part, especially when they're just... Damage... Remnant from the Ashes was a game I liked building in because all you got were EXP points you could just through into skills as you went with smaller decisions about builds being your armor and guns, but over time they slowly changed a lot of the builds to be less, "You can use this armor and ring to build up a lot of summons to keep yourself safe," "You can use this armor and ring and build to tank by leaching health," and just pushed, "If you don't get hit, this armor's perk won't deteriorate and you'll have more damage" and it kind of bummed me out. Damage is just boring because it's the most obvious end point of a build regardless. Counter to Pat's point about Monster Hunter, I liked when armors had tradeoffs with the ten point system from before world, where you needed a minimum amount of points to activate a skill, because at least you couldn't just always default to 'but extra damage though.' Though I will admit I don't care for the grinding process of unlocking those builds time after time.

[@reliusornez1448]

Negative skills definitely made armor feel more unique too, especially when it reflected the monster the armor it came from. Deviljho making your stamina cap drop almost every 20 seconds making you eat constantly in exchange for damage and tracking made sense and felt cool. I want more skills with drawbacks or niche builds instead of just here is a flat 30 damage because you have this skill.

[@amysel]

I love how how the last clip ended on a cliffhanger for this video

[@manakin14]

I always end up thinking "hey that will be a cool perk to use my very rare upgrade point on" and then it ends up being the most useless perk in the game

[@FloofyOneTorpheus]

Does... Pat not know about the Glamor function in Minster Hunter? So you can wear specific monster armor and put your favorite armor over it

[@richnolan2744]

This feels like more pat mind goblins

[@FlutterSwag]

Im surprised pat didnt mention the improvements world made with not needing hot and cold drinks and seemless resource gathering

[@vidmuncher]

Didn't that get added in though? You slowly cook in the volcano/crystal level if you don't make and take a cool drink (at least the plants are nearby)

[@blackmantis1511]

So, Woolie you mentioned in monhun that you saw consumables as replacing your built in skills but being consumable, there is a massive flaw with that logic, because you can layer those buffs on top of your skills, meaning that they don’t replace the skills.

[@ItsTheFizz]

Man, Pat's going to HAAAAAATE the new Armored Core

[@Dragonsmana]

He'll either hate it going in and blame the game forcing builds (despite being the point, much how he knows going in he hates Nioh style games), or completely 180 his opinion and not acknowledge his former insanity as usual.

[@tylerday1545]

I get it, and I'd say I sit somewhere in the middle of the spectrum because for me it really depends. I know a lot of people say, "Just let me be THE Paladin". Which is what Pat wants right. I like the concept of, "Yeah I'm the paladin but look, I put all my points into charisma so I'm actually just a smooth talker who like faked it to make it." (I have other opinions like player made subclassing being fun [WARFRAME]) And the time wasting prebuffs, I get hating those and I agree on the stance that if its for EVERY fight, then it shouldn't be in any of them. OR make it an aura passive of the class. Turn protect into an aura passive healers have that affects party members. I like having bloated options, I just don't like requiring bloated options. Like if you told me, I could run around to 3 different cities to get buffs for this specific boss, but the boss was already pretty beatable without them, I'd say those are fine. I prefer specific instances of buffs. Like specific element resistance buffs and I believe stuff like that should either toggle or long lasting consume. Because no I'm not trying to chug before every fight in a dungeon either but if it was the haunted graveyard, I'd understand having to look for buffs specific to undead before entering.

[@imageispower20]

This is just pats giant robotic crab syndrome writ large. So not surprising. Its metasizing. Spreading. Just use your items! They are meant to be used!

[@werwolfnate]

I think the main thing about the pathfinder example is that it's a game adaption of a system where most of your fun is spending the week before the next play session with the rulebook and a sheet of paper. Builds may be the point but you build when not playing the game.

[@themissinggene]

Reminds me of dragon age origins where you get Liliana and she’s just wrong, everything about her is incorrect. She’s introduced to you wielding a dagger in an enclosed space, she has no melee skill investments, all of her prebuilt stats are for ranged weapons, she doesn’t have a ranged weapon on her person, even if you give her one you need to alter her combat behaviors manually using a system the game never actively tells you exists. It’s incredible.

[@zerofang009]

At first i thought it was just weird Pat nonsense but the more i heard the more i understood(?). My most recent and first experience with Divinity 2:OS was a slap in the face.

[@Kango234]

That was my exact thought. I really wanted to get into that game, but it just was too overwhelming for me. Not saying it's bad, just not for me.

[@Gojiro7]

I wonder if these two are aware of the game Safe Room is Attache Case HD, its purely a puzzle game that does everything in its power to pay homage to RE4 while being legally distinct