Buying a Stevens 22-410

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John1911 Gun Blog

John1911 Gun Blog

Күн бұрын

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@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
Not a bad little gun. These new today would cost a small fortune. Or be made extremely cheaply. john1911.com/buying-a-stevens-22-410/
@GoodisBest4u
@GoodisBest4u 6 ай бұрын
The new 42v model does not shoot nearly as accurate as the model 24. Beyond that the new ones just don't have that attractive look.
@jimwalter6497
@jimwalter6497 6 ай бұрын
Would you have any interest in buying a wooden one “patent pending” Stevens 22-410? I’m in the process of clearing out some of my uncle’s things and found this old hunting rifle. It’s got some patina :) but I think I’ve been able to clean most of it up. Let me know if you are interested, and if you could, since I’ll be trying to sell it to somebody, would you mind throwing a ballpark estimate on value? Thanks!
@John1911
@John1911 6 ай бұрын
@@jimwalter6497 hard to guess value without seeing it. But we wouldn’t be interested since we already have one. By patina, I assume rust. One & a half maybe guessing worst case. Marky
@withoutprejudice8301
@withoutprejudice8301 6 ай бұрын
Still have my first gun given me by Dad at 10 yrs old in 1972. A Steven's mdl 24D (1954) .22/.410, high gloss walnut stock. It's receiver is plated and engraved with a fox jumping a log on one side and a grouse (or turkey) flying on the other. When I realize I've had it for 52 years I get kinda nostalgic and remember hunts I haven't thought of in decades. Have lost rear sight blade twice myself and haven't gotten around to ordering it yet. Thanks for the video. Going to pull it out tonight and spend some time with an old friend.
@noluck33
@noluck33 8 ай бұрын
Thanks for not having Ads! My viewing is getting as I do not watch videos with Ads.
@John1911
@John1911 8 ай бұрын
Yup. We never monetize on YT. Not worth the hassle for the viewer (you) or me (ad content restrictions). -Marky
@ripleyp2002
@ripleyp2002 7 ай бұрын
Just inherited one of these. It was my grandfather’s who was air force in WW2. My grandfather confirmed years ago that it was indeed a survival weapon for pilots.
@John1911
@John1911 7 ай бұрын
Sounds like a very important gun. I hope your family has it forever. Regards, Marky John1911.com
@davidstarke2121
@davidstarke2121 10 ай бұрын
My first gun and still have it today ❤
@John1911
@John1911 10 ай бұрын
That’s awesome!
@TimJohnson-e6b
@TimJohnson-e6b Ай бұрын
This was my first ever gun and I still have it today 30+ years later and the 22lr still shoots like a laser beam. They don't make anything like they used to
@John1911
@John1911 Ай бұрын
Few things reflect better on a man’s character than a well used gun. Marky
@2x4Tactical
@2x4Tactical Жыл бұрын
I have a model 24 - 22WMR/.410 wood furniture and blued steel. It was given to me by my grandfather as a kid. My favorite gun I own and best small game rifle ever made.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
A 22 Win Mag combo would be awesome. It must warm your heart to have grand dad’s rifle. Marky
@mykylc
@mykylc Жыл бұрын
Wow...great memories. My first gun as a kid.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Glad you liked the video! -Marky
@mykylc
@mykylc Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 took me back to 10 years old. Thanks!
@garybrown1231
@garybrown1231 2 жыл бұрын
And this gun is actually the perfect first gun for a youth. My uncle just like many other uncles and fathers first put a 22 in my hand and then a shotgun. With this sweet little squirrel and rabbit gun you get both in one !
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
True. The first gun I ever shot was some kind of 22 single shot my farmer grandfather put into my hands. I recall shooting at an empty milk carton and not hitting it. Only to walk up to the carton and see the hole punched right through it. I was maybe 5. Possibly younger. I can still remember that clear as yesterday. Marky
@craigt5990
@craigt5990 8 ай бұрын
I have grandad’s model 24. It is a .22/.410 3”. It has wood furniture and color case harden receiver, the barrels are immaculate inside and out. I assume it is a very old model because it has no serial number . Also I have been in possession of it since around 1964, but I have shot it since around 1957. At this point in its life it is a safe queen although I would have no qualms about using it at any time. It will go to my grandson someday.
@John1911
@John1911 8 ай бұрын
Family guns are the best guns. Also it’s not uncommon for guns made before 1968 to not have serial numbers. To be honest, I wish ours had wood furniture. -Marky
@alaska1andy959
@alaska1andy959 Жыл бұрын
Numrich Gun Parts has parts for the Stevens 22-410. Owned one for years, never shot it.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
They are a hoot to shoot. You should shoot yours. -Marky
@rangervapes571
@rangervapes571 Жыл бұрын
I purchased my Savage 24 Camper 22LR/20g back in 1974 with the breakdown case wrap to stuff in your backpack. Still shoot it today and still have the original ammo in the butt stock compartment.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Wait! Yours hold ammo in the stock?! 😮 I’ll have to check ours tomorrow! -Marky
@rangervapes571
@rangervapes571 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 Mine has an aluminum plate that swings out from the pad. One hole takes 20g and then two holes for 22LR. I believe this was only available in the Backpack model . Officially it was called the Model 24C Campers Companion
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
That’s so cool!!!!!
@acoldguy2381
@acoldguy2381 Жыл бұрын
I had a Stevens 22-410 as a youth the same model as in this video. A brother of mine gave it to me. I noticed that the rear sight elevation adjuster was missing on the one in this video as was mine so I took one from a BB gun that I had & it worked just fine. My problem with this model is that after ~ 10,000 22-rounds the chamber expanded to the point that I had to use a knife to remove the casings. I had to sadly retire it!
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Sounds like the gun had a good life! -Marky
@EverettBaland
@EverettBaland 9 ай бұрын
Looked at another today. Always a fan of these combos!
@John1911
@John1911 9 ай бұрын
Scoop them up. You’ll never lose on it. -Marky
@daveopie4747
@daveopie4747 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great info. My son was given one from his grandfather. I had no idea what the age of the gun was.
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you liked the video. Anything I said should be taken with a grain of salt for sure! It is my understanding that variations of this combo where made for many years. But the fact Grandpa gave one to his grandson certainly bolsters the “you have an older one” belief. Also…what a neat story!! -Marky
@marktruitt4265
@marktruitt4265 2 жыл бұрын
I have that gun and never had a problem other than loosing the front ramp . I just ordered a new one .
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
Where from? Marky
@marktruitt4265
@marktruitt4265 2 жыл бұрын
@@John1911 Tennessee
@garybrown1231
@garybrown1231 2 жыл бұрын
Do you even hunt squirrel and rabbit which is what this gun is basically for and if you hunted squirrel and rabbit you would probably already know about this gun as I did years ago and I don't even have a gun shop. And does this guy ramble forever without even saying what he paid for it ?
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
I do not hunt squirrel and rabbit. I bought the gun because I liked the gun. Fortunately in America that is good enough of a reason. Regards, Marky
@loganjameson8042
@loganjameson8042 Жыл бұрын
Man I have one of these and it's still my favorite gun I own.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
They are neat little guns. -Marky
@WildAthletics
@WildAthletics 2 жыл бұрын
I have a savage 24 I picked up at auction a few years back. Beautiful gun.
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
This one is a little rough cosmetically, but a good shooter grade for us. Marky
@tonydaniels3093
@tonydaniels3093 Жыл бұрын
I just installed a new selector on one of those, a great little gun
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Obviously we agree. Marky
@johnscreekmark
@johnscreekmark Жыл бұрын
I have a Savage 24 just like that. Side barrel selector button..22WMR over 410…love it.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
They are very popular.
@tylerb556
@tylerb556 2 жыл бұрын
That's really cool I got a Stevens model 70 visible loader
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
I will have to Google that. The word “visible” is intriguing. -Marky
@tylerb556
@tylerb556 2 жыл бұрын
@@John1911 it's a really interesting gun in Stevens history. One day I plan to restore it
@chocolingo7423
@chocolingo7423 Жыл бұрын
I got one of GB a few years ago and has become my go to small game gun. I replaced the tenite furniture with american walnut. Definitely a keeper!!!!
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Very cool. Marky
@bengriffin138
@bengriffin138 Жыл бұрын
Did you make the fore end or did you find it somewhere?
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
@@bengriffin138 I believe he found it at Numrich. -Marky
@chocolingo7423
@chocolingo7423 Жыл бұрын
@@bengriffin138… John1911 is correct… found both stock and forearm at Numrich
@garybrown1231
@garybrown1231 2 жыл бұрын
And the main reason I was watching this video is because I was hoping he would tell where he got it and how much he paid for it. Was hoping to get some information on that because if you try to buy a Savage model brand new they're like over $800 !
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
We purchased it from our local FFL off their used shelf. -Marky
@farmageddon2978
@farmageddon2978 Жыл бұрын
I have one from when my grandpa passed away. Going to fire it this weekend. Decent shape. But has the wood plastic stock. Think this gun was from mid late 1940s maybe
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
That’s very cool. I hope it stays in your family for hundreds of years. It all depends on you. Marky
@farmageddon2978
@farmageddon2978 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 planning on getting it detailed professionally while maintaining all original parts. Plan on passing it down hopefully many generations after im gone. Was having a lil trouble finding .410 in stock. Hopefully I can check some more places before i go shooting my dad selling me an extra Glock 43 he has for concealed. There have been some break ins happening close to me and some shootings so id rather have one and not need it then need it and not have it is my thinking. Would you have a gun to recommend for in home protection. Would love a short barreled pump action shotgun for in house. aa12 semi would be cool but a lil pricy at around 3k, plus that might be better suited for zombie hoards lol. subbed and liked! Great video
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
@@farmageddon2978 Guns are a very personal choice. If you like something and have confidence in it, you will shoot it better. For home defense, you have two options the way I see it. If you have a daily CCW gun, just use that. If that ends up being too small, you can obviously go for something bigger since you are not carrying it. Duty size. Standard mag capacity. Possibly even a lite on board. But no need to overthink it. One of my standard home defense guns for 30 years has been a Mossberg 590, with a WML and side saddle. It lives in my bedroom closet. Literally been doing that since college. Am I a huge shotgun guy? No. But I know it’s there. Sits in cruiser ready condition and I know how the safety works instinctively. What’s on my nightstand? My daily CCW 1911 at 18+1. Surefire light. Spare mag. And phone. That’s my real home defense gun. But the 8+6 Mossberg is always down to party. Mostly out of habit. That’s 50 rounds in combination of 9mm & 00 Buck always on tap. -Marky
@waynejenkins6259
@waynejenkins6259 Жыл бұрын
I have one of these. The stock was cracked in the wrist when I got it. Not trusting the glue job I did on it, I ordered a new wood stock and forearm for mine. Mine shoots 22 lr and 2 1/2 inch .410 slugs to the same point of aim at 30 yards. Great little gun. I previously owned a model 24 chambered in 20 gauge and .22 Hornet. Wish I had not let that one go. Thanks for the post, you don’t see these very often.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Hey Wayne, Glad you got yours going. I was pleasantly surprised at how numerous aftermarket / OEM parts were for these in 2022. Regards, Marky
@gregt5421
@gregt5421 Жыл бұрын
Hi Wayne, where did you order the wood stock from? Thanks!
@waynejenkins6259
@waynejenkins6259 Жыл бұрын
@@gregt5421 I got the new stock from Numrich Gun Parts Corporation.
@gregt5421
@gregt5421 Жыл бұрын
I was just looking there. Do you happen to know if the Stevens 24 model will also match the Savage 22-410 model? And did you find a forend there as well? I’m looking to replace the tenite on a Savage model.
@waynejenkins6259
@waynejenkins6259 Жыл бұрын
@@gregt5421 I replaced both the stock and forend, and I believe the .22-.410 and the 24 use the same stock and forend. The schematics for both on Gun Parts list the same stock. They are pricey, but make all the difference in the world for this little gun. Good luck!!!
@rslover65
@rslover65 Жыл бұрын
I've got a 22lr/20ga model D. My only gripe is that trying to use slugs the 20ga barrel shoots way low, unusable with the sights set for the 22lr barrel.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
I can see that out to range. Best bet is to try different load combinations to bring them closer in line. -Marky
@TaylorSmith-ex8nj
@TaylorSmith-ex8nj 8 ай бұрын
I have one of these. I got it from my grandfather. Is there anyway to date these as I have not been able to find a serial number
@John1911
@John1911 8 ай бұрын
I did some searching and these guns use a date code since they were made before 1968. I can’t speak to the accuracy of this list, but it’s probably a good place to start: There could be a letter in a circle under the shotgun barrel near the lug. A 1949 B 1950 C 1951 D 1952 E 1953 F 1954 G 1955 H 1956 I 1957 J 1958 K 1959 L 1960 M 1961 N 1962 P 1963 R 1964 S 1965 T 1966 U 1967 V 1968 W 1969 X1970
@kahnecorfee841
@kahnecorfee841 6 ай бұрын
Mine looks identical but it isn’t damaged
@tripplebeards3427
@tripplebeards3427 4 ай бұрын
Awesome looking plastic furniture swirels, but I have a headache from watching the video because you can’t hold the gun still for two seconds.
@John1911
@John1911 4 ай бұрын
Fair observation. “I don’t know what to do with my hands!!!!” 😜 -Marky
@tripplebeards3427
@tripplebeards3427 4 ай бұрын
@@John1911 yeah I wanted to look at that plastic stock I thought that was the most beautiful piece of curly Maple ever saw until you said it was plastic LOL
@John1911
@John1911 4 ай бұрын
@@tripplebeards3427 Is this a little better? Made specifically for you. -Marky kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKaWZounnKllY8Usi=emlPW67qcma7RtYd
@tripplebeards3427
@tripplebeards3427 4 ай бұрын
@@John1911 that stock looks awesome thank you. I subscribed you got me buddy
@jedimasterjoe5386
@jedimasterjoe5386 Жыл бұрын
Can you safely shoot slugs out of it? I shoot slugs out of it before and it did nice groupings but idk if I’m doing damage to the gun
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
I think that would depend on the choke of your barrel. .395 full choke. .405 modified. If full, I would probably not shoot slugs out of it. But that also would depend on if your slug and it’s corresponding structures are soft or hard? Meaning will they compress if full choked? Or will they blow out your barrel’s choke? Dunno. Also…it’s entire possible someone already did “that” and took care of it for you. In short, I am probably NOT the best guy to asked about shotguns. Does your gun indicate the choke level on the barrel? -Marky
@jedimasterjoe5386
@jedimasterjoe5386 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 no marking for choke that know of
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Take some calipers and measure the inside of the opening. If you get .395, that’s full choke. I would not shoot a slug through that probably. Hope this helps. -Marky
@jedimasterjoe5386
@jedimasterjoe5386 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 thanks!
@howardfrederick9229
@howardfrederick9229 Жыл бұрын
I recently inherited that very gun.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Very neat. I hope you document its history and keep it in the family. -Marky
@jimzike7293
@jimzike7293 Жыл бұрын
I have a 22-410 identical to it in very good shape, no damage and everything is on it, what is average value
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Sorry. I would have no idea. We run a reference collection. Maybe GB has some listed. -Marky
@MrDavidc66
@MrDavidc66 Жыл бұрын
One just sold on GB yesterday for $420
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Good to know. -Marky
@wadebrinson8977
@wadebrinson8977 Жыл бұрын
That is not the original furniture for that gun. The furniture came from a model 240 or 242 savage. The original furniture was much darker. It is called tenite. The receiver was case hardened and all other metal(other than the trigger guard) were blued. This model takes cold blue easily as long as you know what you are doing. I haven't done any savage work in a while(Gust playing at home) but I'd guess you could pick that up for around $400. God is good!
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
This is tenite furniture. Are you saying this gun came with wood originally? -Marky
@wadebrinson8977
@wadebrinson8977 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 Not necessarily. The tenite was produced and used on many savage/stevens products. the 240 and the 242 both had a liter color like yours shows. It could be a factory replacement but is most likely someone saw it and decided to change it out or replaced a damaged unit You can find tenite on the two mentioned and also on any Stevens or savage in the 93 series, 219 and 220, And the numbers escape me now but I think the 107B series. I have rebuilt 43 of these just because I like them. Still got 15 or so in the safe. Hope this helps you to understand what I'm trying to say. Other than that, I'm old and in poor health, including memory loss so forgive me if I have not gotten my facts right. God is good!
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Wade, I appreciate your comments. I understand and will look into it. Thanks for the help. Yes, God is Good! -Marky
@wadebrinson8977
@wadebrinson8977 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 I wouldn't bother. It's very common to find the Stevens 22/410 and the many savage 24s that have the furniture switched out. It doesn't hurt the value at all. My dad had one that stayed behind the wood stove to dry off, too long and warped the stock. It was replaced with wood. You know what they say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and yours is definitely not broke! Have a good day.
@Mark-dv9kd
@Mark-dv9kd Жыл бұрын
My selector button on the side has broken & is gone, along with the should be attached firing pin selector. So anybody out there watching this video have any information as to how I can get this repaired? Thanks in advance
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
You can purchase NOS replacement selectors on the internet. -Marky
@briantaylor233
@briantaylor233 Ай бұрын
The airforce had the springfield M6
@John1911
@John1911 Ай бұрын
Yeah. I’ve seen those for years. Franky, a lot of these older guns that literally predate my shooting career? I just kinda take most of it with a grain of salt. Regards, Marky
@GoodisBest4u
@GoodisBest4u 6 ай бұрын
The air force did purchase them for a survival gun.
@John1911
@John1911 6 ай бұрын
Do they look like this one or are they more “military” looking? Regards, Marky
@GoodisBest4u
@GoodisBest4u 6 ай бұрын
@@John1911 The ones I've seen pretty much look like the one in the video. I belive some were wooden stocks too.
@John1911
@John1911 6 ай бұрын
Good to know! Marky
@OvelNick
@OvelNick Жыл бұрын
I've been looking around for an answer to my issue... Maybe someone can lead me in the right direction. I have an early model savage 24 22/410. It fires, the barrel switch is smooth, the break paddle works perfect, ect everything is in working order but It will NOT breakdown all the way. The front forend comes off easy. The barrel will not come off the frame. I don't know WTF could be snagging that won't allow it to come off because this is my first time owning one. Any help would be fucking awesome!! Cheers!
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
That’s weird. It should just lift off, IIRC. Let me pull it down off the wall and look more closely at it. -Marky
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Ok. Remove the forend. Unlock the action and crack the hinges far as you can. If it is not coming apart, put a little downward pressure on the barrels and push them back towards the receiver. It will release in that direction. Give me an update. Marky
@robertboreman7672
@robertboreman7672 2 жыл бұрын
The furniture is called Tenite - it is a cheap plastic , and as it gets older, it can smell like vomit. I have a newer model with a walnut stock.
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
HA! It’s like an episode of, “CSI Gunstore”. Thanks! -Marky
@RICARDORUIZ-x4w
@RICARDORUIZ-x4w Жыл бұрын
Es un calibre perfecto para todo
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
It is a great game gun setup, yes. Marky
@michaelthrelkeld212
@michaelthrelkeld212 Жыл бұрын
Spoken to some experts. I have one of these. They tell me to keep the Tenite(plastic) furniture as it is worth more than the entire gun. I inherited it from my Grandfather and I plan on replacing the furniture with wood but now I will keep the original furniture. The vomit must be your particular gun!😂
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, unless your furniture was broken, I would see no upside to replacing it with wood. I also am told that Tenite smells like vomit. Pop your forend and smell inside the channel. And yes, I realize that statement seems VERY weird. ;-) -Marky
@michaelthrelkeld212
@michaelthrelkeld212 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 I popped off the forend last night after seeing your video. Didn’t get that smell 😂
@michaelthrelkeld212
@michaelthrelkeld212 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 I plan to keep the Tenite furniture, it’s in great shape actually zero scuff marks. My Grandfather was very meticulous with this gun. I’m going to put a Walnut Stock and forend on it. The only issue I see with doing to though is I will have to replace the long bolt on the butt of the stock that attaches it to the receiver or I will have to recess it further into the butt if the stock, simply because the wood is thicker than the Tenite(obviously) and the OEM bolt is too short for the wood stock to attach.
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Guess my gun is just nasty!!! 😂
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Why not just leave the tenite on it and enjoy it that way? It’s not like you are going to take it in the mountains on a sheep hunt? -Marky
@jcwoodstl
@jcwoodstl 2 жыл бұрын
How quick can you run the plates with it
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
The timer would run at “one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand…. 😜
@rayfoster6980
@rayfoster6980 Жыл бұрын
They called that plastic stock ‘tenite’ .
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Yes, and when hot, it tenite smell like vomit. 😎 Marky
@mafirearmsafety
@mafirearmsafety 2 жыл бұрын
I’d love to find a 30-30 over 12ga
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
You could call it, “the little mule” for the kick!!! 😜 Marky
@mafirearmsafety
@mafirearmsafety 2 жыл бұрын
@@John1911 I had the .22LR over the 20ga, gave it to a friend as a camp gun in Maine.
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
You are a very good friend indeed. Regards, Marky
@Dominochaney
@Dominochaney 2 жыл бұрын
It’s the tenite mine also faintly smells like stomach bile if you put your nose in there
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
That is what I have been hearing. The dealer is the one who first pointed it out! So he’s the one who stuck his nose in there. Not me!! HAHAHAHA!!! -Marky
@rickymarcrom5059
@rickymarcrom5059 Жыл бұрын
Opps I've got a 30/30 over 20ga
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
That is a killer setup, IMO. Wish I had that. -Marky
@rickb5575
@rickb5575 Жыл бұрын
Numrich has parts
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Yes.
@rickb5575
@rickb5575 Жыл бұрын
@@John1911 yep, just ordered due to my selector not working
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Being able to buy new parts for old guns is a uniquely American form of high living. -Marky
@jaygold-pz6qh
@jaygold-pz6qh Жыл бұрын
Mine stinks also!
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
Ha! So…either that’s how they all are or both our guns were covered in vomit at the same deer-camp party! 😜 Marky
@bhi7165
@bhi7165 2 жыл бұрын
Don't puke on your guns😂😂
@John1911
@John1911 2 жыл бұрын
The NRA should add that to the list. -Marky
@bhi7165
@bhi7165 2 жыл бұрын
@@John1911 Absolutely!
@bullfart9221
@bullfart9221 Жыл бұрын
Did these or the Savage Model 24 come out first? They seem nearly identical minus missing flip up sights
@John1911
@John1911 Жыл бұрын
I am not certain which came first, but it is my understanding they are sister companies with a lot of crossover. -Marky
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