CAC SABRE: Was Australia's F-86 The Best F-86?

This episode covers my favourite Sabre: the Australian CAC Sabre, with its combination of Rolls Royce Avon and 30mm Aden cannons.
The video looks at Australia’s reasons for procuring the type at a time when others were looking at 2nd generation fighters. It then covers the development of the aircraft, squadron service and makes the case for the Avon being the best of all the day fighter Sabres as an air superiority fighter. I hope you enjoy this one…
…and for those of you watching on the 26th, I hope you have a good Australia Day!

[@rudyyarbrough5122]

I was stationed in Da Nang Vietnam in 1965 with a Marine F-4B squadron. We were told to fly our planes to Ubon Thailand because of an expected mortar attack on our airbase. We arrived at Ubon and the US Air Force did not want to handle us so they sent us to the Australian area over in a corner of the huge airfield. They were flying F-86s but they were all grounded because of wing cracks and had been since their deployment. The pilots were very frustrated but very welcoming to us. They did, however, get a little revenge by tricking us into playing darts in their officers club. We could not buy any of their wonderful beer since it was on the house. After playing for a while and not doing very well with the darts, they decided to up the game by offering a bet. We, of course, being a little tipsy, accepted their challenge. We were wearing tiger camo flight suits and they were wearing huge balloon ones that required a belt to make them fit. They bet that if they could beat us in darts we would swap flight suits. Being Marine pilots we had to take the challenge. Up until this point they were just average dart throwers and we were beating them half of the time. After the bet, they never missed a single throw and even offered to throw backward through their legs! They still beat us! We gave them our neat flight suits and to show their pleasure they assigned lieutenants to go into town with us to keep us from being taken by conmen and bad hookers! When we got our planes back to Da Nang, all of them had kangaroos painted inside the access doors as a reminder of who took us in. I have loved Australians ever since.

[@gregalanharper]

Priceless!

[@hazza6330]

Thanks for the kind words about my countrymen. Those are Australians for you.

[@gregalanharper]

@@hazza6330 Yes, the Australians are MY countrymen! You don’t recall a Sabre Pilot by the name of Chris Mirow, do you? He was one of my flight instructors.

[@AJS86]

That's what we do lol

[@daszieher]

​@AJS86 be a good sport, drink beer and paint 'roos on access panel doors? 😂 Sounds like the Aussies I've met. Even been down under once. for three whole days. Didn't even see a wallaby, let alone a "proper" kangaroo.

[@Theogenerang]

The combination of a British engine and an American airframe really was an elegant solution. The pettiness of Australias public service when it comes to acquisitions is legendary.

[@Ensign_Cthulhu]

It's the second time a North American airframe has been elevated by a Rolls-Royce engine.

[@stevewhite3424]

​@@Ensign_Cthulhu Unfortunately they also uplifted the Soviet Union Mig 15

[@mastathrash5609]

CA 23 design looks like an English Electric ⚡️ And a Mig-21 met up at the local pub one night.🤔

[@dashcroft1892]

Canadair Sabre Mk 6 powered by the Avro Orenda 14 was also a great variant.

[@marclaplante5679]

Canada has entered the chat…. The Avro Arrow, the Canadair CL84 Tilt Wing all died and took our areo space industry with them

[@scarface9478]

To all the Aussies happy Australia Day to you from the great state of Texas!! And thank you, “Not a pound” for the video!!

[@harrisionstan3773]

Thanks. Happy memories of this Aussies visit Kelly/ Dyess/ Midland-Odesssa and the USS Lexington. Friendly folk and great roads

[@garynew9637]

Blessings for Texas.

[@FishandHunt]

Gidday mate 👋🏻 🇦🇺🤝🇺🇸

[@Praktical_]

A bit late but appreciate it mate. Hope all is well over in Texas 👍.

[@peterlovett5841]

I have read somewhere that the aircraft based in Thailand also provided dissimilar air to air combat training to US Air Force Phantoms that were based there as well. There is a story of a US colonel who bragged to his men that he would show them how to conduct air to air combat with one of the Australian aircraft. Within a minute of the merge he had the Australian aircraft on his 6. It was a much chastened colonel who landed.

[@manuelkatsos5104]

That's correct it was at the 8th Tactical fighter wing base at Ubon. Colonel Robin Olds used Australian Sabres for DACT prior to Operation Bolo

[@DWHCBPM]

USAF F-4 pilot Ubon 1966. Absolutely true. Routinely tangled with Aussie F-86s on return from missions north. They could turn at airframe G limit without losing airspeed at altitudes below 20k seemingly forever. The Rhino would lose every time if you fought their fight in the phone booth. We could defeat them with speed, radar early detection, and splitting flight to arrive at merge from different quadrants.

[@peterlovett5841]

@@DWHCBPM Thank you for the information. I imagine the Aussies provided a close match to the MiGs you were encountering over N. Vietnam.

[@petesheppard1709]

Tangling with other friendly fighters is a near irresistible temptation for a fighter pilot...educational, too.

[@Airsally]

Great vid ,lots of great info . Got to love Sabre's

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY to all you Aussies...🇦🇺

[@rokuth]

I grew up in Malaysia in the 1960s and 1970s. I quite vividly remember the CAC Sabre in RMAF service. I still recall the fighter in its Olive Drab RMAF colours flying in formation in one of our (Malaysia) National Independence Day celebrations. I also distinctly remember ducking for cover in my Primary School football field as a RAAF Mirage III flew low and fast over our school in 1969. (This was in the town of Klang in the state of Selangor in Malaysia, some distance away from Butterworth.) I was highly impressionable at the time, as a boy of 9. It may have been one of the things that spurred my interest and love of Aviation and all things military. Thank you for this interesting video of one of my favourite versions of the Sabre.

[@johnstirling6597]

Ex RAAF Sabre A94-983 is on display at the Temora Aviation Museum, though sadly not currently flying due to problems with the ejection seat, hopefully to be rectified soonish.

[@PasleyAviationPhotography]

I was disappointed that survivors (if any) weren't mentioned, so thank you for that.

[@tarkas566]

I've seen -983 fly and it is an amazing sight. She doesn't so much fly past as sort of slide through the air -- beautiful to watch. There used to be an Avon-Sabre parked outside the then-ARL buildings in Fisherman's Bend (next door to CAC), intended for some sort of restoration work, but that was in the late 70s; no idea what happened to it.

[@tarkas566]

I've seen -983 fly and it is an amazing sight. She doesn't so much fly past as sort of slide through the air -- beautiful to watch. There used to be an Avon-Sabre parked outside the then-ARL buildings in Fisherman's Bend (next door to CAC), intended for some sort of restoration work, but that was in the late 70s; no idea what happened to it.

[@tarkas566]

I've seen -983 fly and it is an amazing sight. She doesn't so much fly past as sort of slide through the air -- beautiful to watch. There used to be an Avon-Sabre parked outside the then-ARL buildings in Fisherman's Bend (next door to CAC), intended for some sort of restoration work, but that was in the late 70s; no idea what happened to it.

[@dynomiterecords4348]

I believe that is the aircraft that was completely refurbished at 2AD Richmond around 1980? I was at 486 sqn in the hanger next door and was present when it flew touch and go's after the refurb.

[@Kneedragon1962]

[edit: a day later] The thing was called the Kangaroo, not the Dingo. My bad ~ This story is a bit of everything. It's a combination of triumph & disaster. it illustrates everything that's good about Australian skill and ingenuity, and everything that's bad about Australian bureaucracy and the issue of being at the wrong end of somebody else's supply chain. The Avon Sabre came after the Aust Air works governmental dictated manufacturing structure in Melbourne's DIngo, which came after the Australian made Mustangs, which came after the Australian made Beaufighters, which came after the Wirriway and the Boomerang. You'd think we'd learn, but no, we're stubborn. We know we can build a better mousetrap, if someone could just supply us an engine.... So we decide to take a concept (let's say we want a P-40 Kittyhawk that has a late-war 2,ooo hp Merlin engine in it.) and then we go to design, and then it gets revised and delayed, and then it goes to a committee, and then the board votes on it, and then the government take an interest, and then the Opposition cite it under parliamentary privilege, so it all goes on the back foot, and then it gets revised, and then there's a scandal, so the whole management gets cleaned out, so then we start building it, but the engine we've agreed on, is no longer available, so we have to revise it, and the Kittyhawk had an Allison V12 so let's put a twin Wasp R-2800 in it, they seem to work well in P-47 Thunderbolts. Then you can't get those so maybe the Germans can lend us a few of those inverted V12 ~ we can go to the war crimes trial and ask them. But those are no longer being made, so let's see about one of these Rolls Royce Avons. Now how would you go about adding an RR-Avon into a Kittyhawk? What? It's now 1952 and Korea has started? What do you mean we've been blithering about with this for ten years now? For the record, the Dingo (just to take one example) was a bloody fine aeroplane. If we'd had that in 1942 ~ that would have been great. If we'd had then in late '44 or early '45, even that would have been impressive. But the Dingo didn't fly until the end of '46 and was still being tested when Yeager broke the sound barrier in '47. Same story with the Avon Sabre. it was a good idea, but by the time we had all the bugs and details worked out, the Yanks were flying F-100 Super Sabres and the Brits were flying Hunters. If we'd had that thing ready and in rapid production 3 ~ 4 years earlier, I wouldn't be cracking jokes about it.

[@jeffreyskoritowski4114]

Imagine if the RAAF had waited until 56 and got Crusaders.

[@goddepersonno3782]

it remains true for most Aussie productions to this day When buying domestic made power supplies, they're rigorously quality controlled, tested, stamped, approved, retested, redesigned. As such, you're looking at 200 dollars compared to a cheapo import from China for less than 20 dollars that will probably explode at some point in its life. But even if it died 10 times in 10 years, it would still be cheaper than the Aussie one. We wonder why it's so hard to get industry off the ground when it's illegal to build stuff that's less than perfect.

[@kwakagreg]

what's a dingo? you mean the kangaroo?

[@Kneedragon1962]

@@kwakagreg~ er ... wiki ~ [short pause] Yes. Sorry. Memory. I thought the damn thing was called the Dingo. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_CA-15 Compare it to a late war fighter, and it's pretty damn good. More than a match for a P51D. But it's hopelessly outclassed by either a Mig 15 or an F-86. It might have been about as good or slightly better than a Sea Fury. Thing is, like the DH Hornet or the Sea Fury or any of the other super-props, it wasn't going to be even close to a real jet. We're making the stereotype mistake of preparing to fight the next war, by preparing to fight the last one over again. We're not the first to make that mistake and we're probably not going to be the last.

[@tarkas566]

Preparing to fight the last war has frequently been a problem for the Australian services, and it got worse in the early to mid Cold War period because the 3 services appeared to be planning for different wars! It was said that the Army looked to be aiming to fight the Western Desert campaign -- which kind of makes sense when you consider what a lot of Australia is like -- while the Navy was expecting WW2 in the Pacific all over again and the RAAF appeared to be planning to bomb Indonesia! Just a bit confused there as far as inter-service operability goes...

[@captmulch1]

My father was the youngest pilot in 3 Squadron in Operation Sabre Ferry, taking the Sabres to Butterworth.

[@kenjackson5685]

My father was the youngest engineer on Operation Sabre ferry and he made the pilots look good 👍 😊😊🇦🇺🇦🇺

[@captmulch1]

@@kenjackson5685 Thanks to your Dad for getting them all safely to Butterworth!!

[@minera7595]

From all of the facts, I didn't expect that Avon Sabre was once operated in my very honeland (Thailand). That was a very pleasant surprise to know

[@goddepersonno3782]

I saw the Avon Sabre and immediately clicked onto the video I learnt about this aircraft in high school browsing the CAC aircraft design list on wikipedia. It jumped out to me as a cool upgrade to an already very cool fighter, and learning of its specifications quickly made it one of my favourites (alongside the CAC-15 Kangaroo, a real missed opportunity). Was really a treat to get to hear even more about it from this video

[@daverooneyca]

Thank you for mentioning the Canadair Sabre VI! It and the CAC Mk. 32 were together the ultimate Sabres with identical thrust engines. The Sabre VI was lighter, but a single hit from the Mk. 32's ADEN cannon would ruin your whole day.

[@kevinquinn7645]

My father was a Gunnie and the Sabre was his favourite. He spent multiple tours in Ubon and Butterworth supporting Sabre squadrons in both locations.

[@assessor1276]

Very good - sounds like a fine rendition of the Sabre. Now - let’s have an episode on the Canadair Sabre with the mighty Orenda engine! It was the bane of USAF squadrons in Europe!

[@Easy-Eight]

I don't know much about that Canadair sabre. Real shame a few of them could not have been used to train USAF pilots for Vietnam in the 1960s.

[@neilturner6749]

@@Easy-Eightget yourself a copy of “The Canadair Sabre”, an exhaustive work written by Larry Milberry

[@neilturner6749]

It would’ve been historically interesting if a neutral party had conducted back-to-back testing of the Orenda Sabre against the Avon one, but by the time both aircraft were fully developed the worlds leading airforces had moved on to wanting Mach-2 day-fighters and interest in the Sabre generally would have waned.

[@AgentJayZ]

I restore Orenda 14s in my shop for Sabre owners. I have a few engine test run videos posted.

[@michaeldenesyk3195]

The costs you quoted when comparing the USAF F-86 and the CAC Sabre must also be explained in terms of production volume. If the CAC produced and sold as many CAC Sabres as North American Corp produced, the cost per airframe would have come down.

[@NoName-ds5uq]

Then add the Australia tax! Everything costs more here! 🤣🇦🇺

[@justforever96]

When of they had just licensed the Saber they would still hang to factor the cost of importing new tooling, etc, divided between the number of aircraft. In this case they also not or less redesigned the entire plane, all that cost comes out of the amount of costs to buy the plane, and if you aren't buying 3,000 of them, it's going to cost most per unit, half of the cost, or more. Like it doesn't take $2B to build a B-2. But they had to get the fixed development costs out a buy of 20 aircraft. And it depends on how you are measuring it, are you quoting airframe cost, including engine, lifetime costs, book value? I think there are more ways to measure aircraft cost than any other object I am familiar with. And it's almost never qualified when people say "the cost of the plane is X".

[@roo72]

We could have used it during the Emu War. Would have been a game changer.

[@mnoliberal7335]

Ha ha😂

[@lauriewise6271]

ha ha

[@davidshanahan5134]

The emu air wing, manned by wedgetail eagles, would have been a tough opponent. Bird-strike is no laughing matter.

[@robertsolomielke5134]

Good job Aussie's ! The right choice , and the better gun . The Mauser 30mm cannon was so ahead, it was copied exact and used for 20 years after. The French called it DEFA .

[@jonesy279]

As an incredibly biased Aussie, responding to the title before I’ve even watched the video… Yes, yes it was.

[@Splattle101]

On the matter of price, one of the most important considerations was continuing the development and employment of the Australian aero industry. It was a matter of national interest trumping price. The bloke you mentioned - Lawrence Wackett - was instrumental in the founding of the modern aeronautical industry in Australia prior to WWII, in spite of the incompetence of successive governments. The wartime expansion was phenomenal: from having zero fighters in RAAF service on the Australian mainland at the time of the Japanese attack on Darwin (19 Feb 42) to the fourth largest air force in the world by Sep 45.

[@bryanwheeler1608]

A parallel development took place in the Australian electronics industry over the same period. The attitude was "if it need to be done, we'll do it", which resulted in some strange relationships, like The New South Wales Government Railways making Radar antennas.

[@flemsha]

Thanks for the video. The audiobook I am currently listening to (Going Downtown by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver) briefly mentions USAF pilots engaging in DACT with RAAF Sabres during Vietnam. I wonder if there is more details on that somewhere? A great choice for Australia Day!

[@petesheppard1709]

It's the rare fighter jock who can resist jumping an allied fighter for fun--and informal training.

[@shaunlaverty8898]

Arguably the Canadair produced Sabres (CL-13) with the Orenda engines were the pinnacle of the Sabre development. There’s quite a few of them still flying, in USAF colours for the most part. Back when Canada had an aviation industry.😢 Regardless, love the Sabres. Jackie Cochran set her speed record in a Canadair built Sabre, when the USAF wouldn’t let her use one. She was also the first woman to go supersonic in that Sabre.

[@justforever96]

Not shocking when the first line countries are going on to make a new generation of fighter already. It's like making something that's like a super advanced F-16 equivalent in the 1990s using technology that want available when the F-16 was introduced, and which is about to be totally outclassed by the F-22. Although I guess one could argue that that's basically what the Eurofighter and Rafael and the like are: advanced equivalents of an F-16 that aren't as good as the actual next generation, but cost way more than the original fighters did.

[@gregalanharper]

At 8:52. Your colourful description of the various units of liquid volume made me laugh. My grandfather, Alan Harper, was the head of the Metric Conversion Board here in Australia. He is largely responsible for converting our country, NZ and most of the South Pacific nations to metrification. He always rued the fact that the US rejected the metric system. As such, I loved your narration about inciting an “international incident over liquid volume measurement standards”! 😂 Feeble US gallons! 😂😅🤣

[@jona.scholt4362]

@2:22 Damn, the Panther looks sexy in that photo. It's definitely one of the best looking of the first gen jet aircraft.

[@RCAvhstape]

Especially in the shiny dark navy blue scheme.

[@AndrewGivens]

@@RCAvhstape And they always looked amazing flying a really tight four-ship formation on their way in to attack an atomically-mutated monster or flying saucers, with intense contrast to try and hide the very large, bright yellow 'US NAVY' lettering.

[@mickvonbornemann3824]

Someone should do a comparison between the GE J47 powered NAA F-86 Sabre, the RR Avon powered Australian CAC Sabre & the Avro Canada TR5 Orenda powered Canadair CL13 Sabre.

[@mtylerw]

Good on Australia for developing and preserving their indigenous aerospace industry.

[@hoilst265]

LOL.

[@lorddashdonalddappington2653]

Lmao, even

[@nedkelly9688]

@BB-xx3dvNot really . and Australian's at Boeing Australia help design Boeing planes. MQ28A Ghost Bat built in Australia by Australian's Aussie who designed Ghost Bat is a lead designer at Boeing Phantomworks.. you know famous secret Boeing division. America barely did a thing on the drone.

[@justforever96]

Yeah, that clearly worked out well. Bless them for trying though.

[@vickydroid]

Thanks for this, I saw many of these Sabres flying around in the skies above us from Butterworth and later from Sungai Besi when the RMAF took over their operations and Mirage IIIs were then stationed in Butterworth.

[@peterkirgan2921]

So true ! I flew the Mirage 3 A3-17 out of Williamtown nsw then Darwin & Butterworth

[@vickydroid]

@@peterkirgan2921 I must have seen you and your Squadron mates flying over Penang Island dozens of times, salute to you. Did you stay on base or live in Tanjung Bungah?

[@dissent9959]

I hope you will take this as a compliment- the spirit in which it is intended- but listening to your videos, I have to imagine that it’s Moss from The IT Crowd who is narrating. 😀

[@JukeboxGothic]

My dad worked for the aircraft division of Rolls Royce in Sydney during the 50s and worked on the engines for the Avon Sabre. I think his time there was his favourite in the aircraft industry.

[@alantoon5708]

It is interesting to note that the Mirage III variant produced for the RAAF was a very minimum change very stock variant. What ifs were an Avon Mirage.... Or what they would have had with a J79 powered variant...😮

[@johnmarley6695]

Dassault made an Avon powered Sabre to try to win an Australian sales contract. It was a cracker, apparently. It was decided to stick with the SNECMA ATAR 09C engine as the Avon was nearing the end of its development life. 🇦🇺

[@kenjackson5685]

Infact as part of the Mirage procurement a single Mirage was I believe re-engined with a RR afterburning Avon by Dassault and tested. Though an improvement the cost benefits were not there and it was dropped. Happy to be corrected

[@justforever96]

A Mirage and ATAR is already more or less equivalent with an Avon, that is nothing like replacing a J47 with an Avon. Why would you spend all that money for no advantage in performance? The J79 was an entirely new generation of engine that wasnt available when the Mirage was introduced, and I doubt the US was giving away the design of their most advanced new engine to everyone as soon as they introduced it anyway. There is also what each party wants you to pay for the use of their technology, which is an actual factor that is considered. France is often willing to charge less than other competitors, and you also dont have to totally redesign your plane for a new engine, and so make it cost twice as much as it would to just buy the tooling as it exists.

[@brianrmc1963]

What a great looking aircraft!

[@petesheppard1709]

Great video! I can only imagine what the kill ratio would have been had these Sabres been able to hunt in MiG Alley... This also leads me to wonder how USAF fighters might have fared had the AAF/AF had, like most everyone else, switched to 20mm cannon at the end of WWII.

[@garynew9637]

USA hubris.

[@RubiconOfDeath]

I really enjoy your content. You’ve covered some fairly obscure aircraft in a depth I’ve never seen before. You’re basically the Drachinifel of aircraft. Keep up the good work!!! 😎🤙

[@rastarn]

Excellent effort! Bravo!

[@manuelkatsos5104]

I live in Sydney love your videos very informative as always. Great video about an iconic fighter aircraft

[@wayneorellana2549]

Thank you for this video. This will always be my favourite Sabre derivative.

[@jona.scholt4362]

Can't wait to watch this on my lunch break! This channel has made Friday lunch break even better than it normally is.

[@docnelson2008]

Another excellent account of one of the great fighter jets-this channel is definitely the best I've coma across that discusses aviation on KZbin-thank you.

[@typhoon2827]

Very interesting, thanks. But much easier to listen to at 1.5x

[@AyebeeMk2]

Twin ARDEN 30mls what a punch! (never knew it was a development of a german piece of kit, just like the Sterling smg, proving you learn something new everyday).

[@neilturner6749]

If you think the Sterling was developed from a German SMG (it was a refinement of the Sten) it’s not surprising that you’re learning something new every day. Now you’ve learned two things this very day!

[@AyebeeMk2]

@@neilturner6749 really a refinement of the sten! Check out the development from: MP18 > Lanchester SMG > Sterling SMG, THEN TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARN....

[@towgod7985]

@@neilturner6749 Well Done!

[@towgod7985]

@@AyebeeMk2 Well Said!

[@justforever96]

ADEN. RARDEN =/= ADEN. The only similarity is that both are 30mm auto cannons. The RARDEN is far more powerful and slower firing and heavier and is for penetrating AFVs. An ADEN is a much smaller and less powerful gun that shoots at an extremely high rate to destroy aircraft. The RARDEN is not based on German gun to my knowledge.

[@brettharrison8280]

Excellent video. Thank you.

[@waynebudman9558]

The prototype CAC CA-26 Sabre Mk 30 (A94-101) first flew on 3 August 1953, with an imported Avon engine, piloted by Flight Lieutenant Bill Scott. During a test flight of this aircraft at Avalon Airfield on 21 August 1953, the pilot, Flight Lieutenant Bill Scott, took the aircraft to a height of 42 000 feet (12 800 metres), put it into a dive and at 36 000 feet (11 000 metres) exceeded the sound barrier (at an approximate speed of 1042 kilometres per hour), thus becoming the first aircraft in Australia to exceed the speed of sound. It now resides at HARS museum.

[@kenjackson5685]

Correction #901 the 1st production Sabre is at HARS whilst #101 is at Point Cook

[@gumpyoldbugger6944]

Love to see a comparison of the CAC Sabre and Canadair Sabre variants.

[@brianvernon7754]

Love your work!

[@petesheppard1709]

I'm also really looking forward to the evolution of the FJ Fury video; I'm sure it's in the pipeline. 😎

[@M167A1]

Yes?

[@mikestanmore2614]

This was an excellent review of the Avon Sabre. Thankyou, from an ex-RAAFy!

[@majorbloodnok6659]

Thank you for this video

[@byronbailey9229]

I flew the Avon Sabre before the Mirage 111. Book figures were 6 minutes brakes release to 35,000 feet. Also had sidewinders.

[@3storiesUp]

Outstanding video.

[@landoremick7422]

Excellent research and interesting video. Well done

[@madbrowndog4887]

Well researched and presented. When I trained as an Airframe Fitter at Wagga Wagga in the late 80's they 4 Sabres as training aids. First practical phase was on Winjeels, second on Sabres and final on Mirages.

[@RichardGoth]

Great analysis!

[@raymondsmart6204]

excellent video

[@redr1150r]

A very good and informative video. I'm 72 and aside from my own 52 year career, I was raised on Naval Air Stations. I remember the Sabre, and Fury aircraft very well. I joined the US Navy in 1970, and the Fury version had been dropped out of service along with the Air Force Sabres. You did all you could with your Sabres and it was time to Move on. It was the same with our F-14. I worked on them in the Navy and for 5 years as a Civil Service aircraft mechanic. We did extend their lives, but time takes a toll on them all.

[@crimsontiger6]

I sat in one recently at Moorabin Air Museum near Melbourne, Australia. Really cool museum. Also sat in a Canberra and a Meteor there.

[@jacksavage7808]

Great video, thanks.

[@SmithandWesson22A]

Great video.

[@jonathanhudak2059]

Wow never even knew about this version of the classic F-86 Sabre! Very interesting and would have been a potent adversary with its more powerful engine and 30mm cannons. I can't believe how strong it's airframe was either!

[@clarkbutler]

Great video

[@diggledoggle4192]

Videos specifically on weapons, such as Firestreak & Red Top would be very interesting

[@NoName-ds5uq]

I don’t think any were gifted to Indonesia, tensions were still a bit high in those days. I know Malaysia got a heap though. Even in the 80s in my service in the RAN we trained to fight Indonesia.

[@RobertTaylor-vo4rz]

The Indonesians received 18(?) Sabres and based them at Iswahyudi. I was part of a staff visit from Butterworth for 10 days to provide administrative assistance to the RAAF Sabre Advisory Unit ( RAAFSAU) staff in 1975? I was a sergeant education assistant.

[@NoName-ds5uq]

@@RobertTaylor-vo4rz thanks for that info Robert! I had no idea- I stand corrected. I got to Butterworth once, during a port visit to Penang. By then(1989) it was no longer RAAF Butterworth but RMAF Butterworth, but the RAAF were still operating there. Our small group of RPs were given a tour of a P-3C, and saw some footage they had of a Soviet destroyer where we were heading next, the Andaman Sea and Bay of Bengal.

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

​@@RobertTaylor-vo4rzyep, indonesia was receiving aid and military assistance from australia under american direction even as they were in confrontation with them. It tells you exactly what a jok australia always has been. Both australia and american organised and facilitated the transfer of west papua to indonesia and later the invasion of east timor. Australia even boosted its troops in PNG in advance to the disarming of the west papuan local troops by their cowardly dutch maters as the us feared the well trained papuans although small in number could either repulse the indonesians or retreat into australian new guinea and then start and insurgency in the jungle causing a general uprising.. Australia=joke... Hehe. Sad.. A clown slave. Captives of their own minds.. The most bountiful continent but they have never taken any of the respurce welth for themselves they give it to their enemies for nothing under american instruction. Even paying the forigen government or large multinational cpuntries to take their wealth from them. 🤣, sure they gave indonesia those sabres.. Just as in the early 80s they gave china an aircraft carrier.. That the chinese couldn't use.

[@nedkelly9688]

Was a weird time over the Timor annexation but we were working out our sea borders and such pretty peacefully. Yes but Indonesia was our only threat in the area. Think was 80's when said enough is enough with the Indonesia disputes.

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

@@nedkelly9688 well no australian wasnt working anything out, they were being instructed.. At great harm to their nation.. By the usa.. And followed exactly as they were told

[@dartharpy9404]

Thanks Very true. Worked hard

[@PaulieLDP]

Nice video, thank you.

[@K1W1fly]

I've spoken to a CAC Sabre pilot - he reckons they were awesome machines - best of breed. Power, Weapons system, range and handling. Canadair models close behind. Regularly outflew F4 Phantoms in mock combat.

[@justforever96]

Obviously it was. How can anyone even debate that? It came out years after the early variants using a much more powerful engine that wasnt available when the original was designed. How could it not be better, unless they just screwed up the design so bad that handling was totally ruined? It's not like they thought of some brilliant thing that the original designers failed to consider, they did it years later when the US was already developing a replacement and talking about when they retired the F-86. If what they came up with wasn't the best Saber at that point, then they were completely incompetent designers. It's like developing the Super Hornet and saying "wow, this is even better than the original F-18!" Yeah, that's kind of the idea. Or you would just use the original.

[@gregalanharper]

I loved your telling of the Avon Sabre story. When I first learn to fly in 1987, my Chief Instructor had been a late era Sabre (and, later, Mirage) pilot. The story I remember him telling was based around when he was stationed in Thailand during the Vietnam war. The RAAF 79 Sqn Sabres, based in Ubon, acted in a ‘back filling’ role defending Thailand from possible reprisal attacks as they hosted USAF assets. The story revolves around their exercising with USAF F-4s. The Yanks got quite a surprise when they found out the Avon Sabres had more power and better turning ability than they had assumed. Knowing what I know now, I suspect the USAF fighter guys had not had that much instruction in ACM either, further disadvantaging them.

[@Thisismyhandle90]

Joe Vella’s book Aircraft Projects of the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation has a few paragraphs on the possible NASAAR radar installation, along with a small sketch. It would have gone in a slightly enlarged lip over the intake, nothing nearly as big as the Sabre Dog’s radome, with the fuselage ahead of the canopy slightly raised to accommodate the electronics. Other fun upgrades considered included rocket boosters.

[@cubicinches18]

I worked at CAC and it is now a shameful legacy that Australia has allowed the demise of such great skills that were in Australia at that time I doubt Australia could sum up sufficient skills to be a tin can producer

[@wacojones8062]

I saw a FJ-4 Fury as a gate guard up in Minnesota in the middle of the night icing conditions late December early January not sure of the date as it was late seventies. It looked a bit forlorn. Thank you for this great presentation.

[@modelaviation3848]

I see what he did posted this Australian video on Australia day

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

The Canadair Sabre's Orenda engine had 7,500 pounds of thrust, the Canadair Sabre was also more than 1,000 lbs lighter than the CAC version. There were ~1,800 made. I submit that the Canadair CL-13 Sabre was the best version of the Sabre.

[@paulwoodman5131]

Japan made a few too, how were they ?

[@Thisismyhandle90]

There was an awareness that the Avon Sabre was a bit chonky, but a weight reduction program was rejected as more work than it was worth.

[@neilturner6749]

The definitive CAC Sabre had a 9,500lb thrust Avon RA26, that’s way more than the Orenda

[@AgentJayZ]

I have worked on the Orenda 14, and the RR Avon. The Avon is more powerful, heavier, and has more than twice as many parts as the Orenda.@@neilturner6749

[@harrisionstan3773]

Respectfully disagree. The Avon-Sabre with a pair of AIM-9Bs wins- in the day fighter role at least.

[@RANDALLBRIGGS]

A comparison between the Avon Sabre and the F-86 Sabre Hog would be interesting. The F-86H had a J73-GE-3E engine providing 9,070 lbs. thrust, and had a top speed of 693 mph. It was a more thorough reworking of the original F-86 layout than was the CAC version.

[@TheActualChosenOne]

Great video. I would love to see you do a video on the South African Air Force, the 2nd oldest air force in the world. Lots of interesting developments were made by the SAAF and Denel, such as the Mirage F1AZ, Mirage F1's HMD's in combination with the Kukri Missile, Cheetah E (SAAF Kfir) and more.

[@robert-trading-as-Bob69]

SA tends to be ignored because of official anti-Apartheid opinions, but to those in the know, our technology and abilities were quietly encouraged behind the scenes. A classic example of the anti-SA lobby bias was the local development of mine resistant V-shaped hulls from Rhodesian designs, which wasn't picked up by the West until Afganistan and Iraq over 20 years later. Like mine resistant APCs would be the same as supporting Apartheid... blinkered dumbarse thinking is what it is.

[@Ghost63123]

Sadly, there is nothing left of any South African industry, since the locusts took over 30 years ago.

[@nedkelly9688]

@@robert-trading-as-Bob69 Is up to you to make your history known. Australia accomplishments are also very little made public unless a Aussie does it. All Aussies also know our Bushmaster Military vehicle was designed around the Rhodesian V hull designed vehicles. After serving in one during UN peacekeeping Aussies tried stealing one to bring back to Australia but was no room for it on the ships and left it. We know the designer of yours helped with Australian Bushmaster also. And i love fighting when someone said a Irish company designed the Aussie Bushmaster and make sure South Africa played more of a roll in it..

[@mathewkelly9968]

With my Australian bias I often claim this is the best Sabre

[@Easy-Eight]

It is the best Sabre, no doubt. However, I have a taxpayer bias and at 3 times the cost of the F-86F the Australian government would have been better off just out-and-out buying the F-86F.

[@paulwoodman5131]

Also really helped the aero industries to step change to jet. Experience is expensive,. Any notable accidents in this buildup?

[@mathewkelly9968]

​@@Easy-Eight mate we where riding on the sheeps back at the time .......... Getting a £ for an .lb of wool

[@davidjrule66]

Thank you.

[@chrisross2916]

Thanks. A great look at the local version of the Sabre. Any chance on doing the same with the Mirage IIIO?

[@garyspencer-salt4336]

Frank Rodgers from DeHavland Australia once told me that engineers at CAC predicted the failure point within a half dozen rivets, they were happy boys but that may have contributed the the cost

[@scottdelorenzi3513]

Is the 6K+ distance between Butterworth/Penang and Williamtown stated in miles? Is it possible you might have meant KMs? Another great vid!

[@proteusnz99]

The Avon F-86 could have been really competitive if it had been available earlier, but the conversion, in particular the need for increased airflow(as with the F-86H), the centre of gravity changes, took a lot more effort and time than anticipated. The Canadair F-86 Mk 6 with the Orenda engine had a good reputation as a dog-fighter in Europe. The pity is the grief of the Avon Sabre program meant that when it was proposed to put an Avon in the Australian Mirage III no one wanted to know.

[@johnstirling6597]

CA-23 looks rather similar to the EE lightening .

[@neilturner6749]

Certainly it resembles the early EE concept/prototypes that eventually led to the Lightning. It’s possible both design teams had access to the same WW2 German research into delta wing concepts that underpinned much of the 1950s supersonic advances. Maybe someone can add definitive info on this ?

[@robertmansfield7656]

So early design concepts in 1948/49 had a very similar appearance with a 55°sweep wing also it was to use the Rolls Royce Tray/Nene ultimate the design was switched to two Rr Ra7r with reheat 7500 lb of thrust dry and 9500 wet per engine. The 12250 that was stated was from the early Rr Tray. The cac 1/17 ca23 model was to the UK for High speed wind tunnel in 1951 testing and test results were not returned to cac until late 53 after the cancellation. I think that RAE in the UK slow walked the testing, but hey that's only speculation. Cac ca23 was a much more capable aircraft and had capacity for growth. The Avon sabre was good but it's was almost as far along the development curve as was possible to take. Although a Sabre with a RR Ra14 would be a thing of beauty. The cac ca23 would had an intake large enough to take the RA14 and would be able to supercruise if the original calculation were correct.

[@clasdauskas]

I was a bit peeved with the comments about the CA23. It is possible the Brits had a hand in closing it down, for obvious reasons, at least according to kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZvMopeJrLKripo&pp=ygUEQ0EyMw%3D%3D

[@robertmansfield7656]

@@clasdauskas hi, the CAC CA23 has been a bit of an obsession of mine for a few years. I doubt that the KZbin creators have the time to deep dive on things like the CAC CA23. The sources from the video you liked with appear to be your basic Wikipedia/ google searches and a couple of online files from the national archives. archives. So the cancellation of this plane in the files is contributed mainly to a number of reasons primarily the earlier decision to change the airborne interception radar (mark16 British) to a smaller video relay radar. The funny thing is that the mark 16 was in development and never came to fruition, so changing th AI radar would have been necessary anyway and small US sets were being developed. The second was a schedule problem cac was tasked with the production of the Avon sabre and the winjeel trainer. Adding an prototype program to that would be difficult. The day fighter program took precedence, they were never intended to fill the same roles. The sabre was an intercepted and the cac ca23 was an all weather multi role. The F/A 18 would be the first purpose built jet aircraft of that type to be adopted in Australia. The most critical factor which killed the CAC ca23 was the change in government in Canberra. Ben Chifflies government was right behind Australian made independent manufacturing, with ties to the British Commonwealth as the defensive back bone. But when he overreacted in attempting to nationalise banking post war the die was cast. Menzies return to power on the back of the red scare changed the fundamental environment for the CAC altered priorities. I'm sure the RAE slow walked it, but I doubt Menzies in pursuit of a defence treaty with the Americans would hesitate in killing projects of potential, if it meant an alliance with the biggest kid on the block.

[@mebeasensei]

Great vid, I wonder if the Royal Australian Navy’s acquisition of the American A4 Skyhawk in the mid-60s would have reflected badly or otherwise, on the CAC Sabre.

[@rogerpattube]

There’s one on display at the Queensland Air Museum in Caloundra.

[@TheDyslexicDragon]

My dad worked on the Sabre when he was in the RAAF.

[@manuelkatsos5104]

How about a video on the Avro Arrow?

[@peterjohnston8116]

The RAAF Sabres were transferred to Indonesia in about 1974 (TNI-AU) as a Defence Cooperation project. They were based at Iswahyudi Airbase Madiun, Central Java. Supported by RAAF personnel who lived in a hotel in the nearby mountains. In 1976 returning from a flight over Jakarta, the TNI-AU pilot experienced engine failure and ejected, the seat hit and killed a farmer working in a rice padi field. I visited in 1975 at that time Iswahyudi Air Base had many Russian aircraft from MIG 15 to TU 16 bomber, none in flying condition.😅

[@mastathrash5609]

As an american, Big fan of Imperial Pints..Dunno why we dont use em more

[@williammorris584]

Mating a British engine to an American airframe was a solution that had an encouraging precedent.

[@mattjacomos2795]

not in the case of the RR Spey Phantom...

[@williammorris584]

@@mattjacomos2795 Well played! I only looked back. Perhaps they were overconfident because of previous results.

[@neilturner6749]

@@mattjacomos2795Very true 😂, although that was a rare exception amongst the huge numbers of US military jets powered by British (designed if not built) engines from the late 1940s onwards.

[@mattjacomos2795]

more likely political considerations... they worked well in Thrust SSC, but...@@williammorris584

[@RedXlV]

Given that one of North Vietnam's go-to fighters was the MiG-17, it seems odd that the Avon Sabres were kept on the periphery of the war instead of being sent MiG-hunting.

[@wst8340]

As z kid I saw the CAF Golden Hawks F-86 Demonstration Squad.in London Ontario Canada.

[@anthonylewis679]

@4.50 some nice series i landy`s there 😊

[@ramal5708]

If the title said the best Sabre instead of Best F-86, I would say the F-100 Super Sabre is the best, but for the Best F-86 we all know it's the Sabre Dog, since it carries the designation F-86 as well.

[@jeffreyskoritowski4114]

The Australian Sabres were quite the accomplishment. However, I have to question the logic of spending so much T.E&R on an aircraft that was almost past its prime before it before it entered operational service. Had the M.O.D. waited another year or so they could've had F100s or(better yet) F8 Crusaders. All the work needed to make the GAC Sabres somewhat viable would've been available standard with the 100 and the 8. 4 cannons instead of 2. 4 built in AAM capability instead of 2. Factory IFR capability and much better engines. The F8 in particular was a very lethal BFM platform and good enough air to ground aircraft into the late 70s. The RAAF could've operated them until the Hornet was ready.

[@maxlambie7788]

yeah, wait till you hear ab this thing called the NBN

[@jeffreyskoritowski4114]

@@maxlambie7788 I'm afraid but my curiosity has got the better of me. Tell me about this NBN thingy.

[@neilturner6749]

Id agree that the RAAF Sabre force took far too long to reach full operational numbers and capability, but not a single air force in the world ordered new F8s so there must be sound reasons why it was universally avoided. I’d submit that the Hunter in F6 form would’ve been a better long-term solution than the F100 (which also looked crude and obsolete by the mid 1960s) but back in 1953 when Australia committed to buying Sabres the Hunter was still a promising but unproven design.

[@robert-trading-as-Bob69]

You've heard the old saying about giving a man a fish, and he eats for a day, but teach him to fish and he's set for life... Apply that logic to aircraft development. Australia's understanding and technological know-how grew by leaps and bounds in this period, giving them confidence in their abilities. Self-reliance is often overlooked, but should never be underestimated. Consider South Africa's reliance on Western technology until sanctions forced them to redevelop and upgrade the local military production and R&D of vehicles and aircraft as well as associated equipment and weapons technology. SA had mine resistant APCs about 30 years before the Yanks and Brits realized how important it was in Afghanistan and Iraq. All that lifesaving technology sitting unused in vehicle parks in South Africa while the overconfident Yanks were hoohaa-ing around in vulnerable bloody humvees...

[@kenjackson5685]

Hindsight is wonderful thing but at that time there was real pride in making something like the Sabre. Our relative isolation meant that by making it ourself the locally made spare parts were available.

[@redactedredacted4080]

I would agree with you.

[@weblightstudio8215]

Interesting

[@robmarsh6668]

Canadair Mk.6! They were real perty too.

[@maximilliancunningham6091]

Might even be viable today, for near proximity air defence, equipped with missiles.

[@nathan47911]

I NEED this Sabre in warthunder.

[@sergarlantyrell7847]

I didn't realise Firestreak was a pretty interesting missile, I've always been under the impression it was a bit of a joke... Could you do a video on British air-to-air missiles?

[@jimgraham6722]

It certainly looked a lot better than the original.

[@allancarey2604]

*smiles* - nice :)

[@stefandewilde3612]

Was it called "Bruce"?

[@FranceneJacques]

Pilots used to say "The last sports car ."