Class-based vs. Skill-based RPGs

[@PostNukeProductions]

Talking about using Savoir-faire in combat reminded me of the Dashing Swordsman prestige class from Order of the Stick, which allowed bards to add their charisma bonus to their attack if they make a witty quip while attacking.

[@Seth9809]

That is the name of a feat in one of the D-20 Modern source books.

[@ProtopopGames]

"Can i savoir-faire them?"😸 your delivery manages to be funny and diplomatic at the same time.

[@Thagomizer]

I think it also depends a great deal on the setting. One neglected aspect of the class system that people don't talk about so much these days is the fact that it's supposed to represent a professional guild. The older editions of D&D emphasized this part in particular. In 1e and 2e D&D, reaching 9th or 10th level represented reaching a significant milestone in your class, where your deeds were recognized enough that you could gain followers, build a stronghold, train apprentices, establish a temple, etc. When you earned enough XP to advance in 1e, you didn't automatically gain a level, but rather, you were eligible for training under a superior practitioner of your craft (i.e. someone at least two levels higher than you) for a certain price and specified period of game time. For a pseudo-medieval setting without widespread education or literacy, this makes sense. For a modern or futuristic setting, a skill-based system makes more sense.

[@quinnfoto]

I think skill-based RPGs work best in single-player RPGs like the Outer Worlds or Bethesda's RPGs. When you're playing a game all on your own, the limitations of classes can be frustrating (I'm a fighter, but I really love picking locks). Class-based RPGs in my mind are best for multiplayer RPGs or party-based RPGs like Baldur's Gate or Divinity, since the game is more about building your party than just one character and whatever shortcomings your avatar has can be overcome by your party (thanks Astarion, couldn't have disarmed those traps without you). edit: oh damn. I wrote this at the beginning of the video. Just got to the end. The master has taught me well.

[@hggpi]

You are definity not wrong but ttrpgs are so fundamentally different than a party based rpg video game In ttrpgs homebrew is almost necesarry, everybody does it right? So people want freedom. Then definitely skill based.

[@BananaGatorProds]

Divinity Original Sin is a good example of a middle of the road type of solution (though it ultimately leans more towards a skill based system). The game has a class system during character creation that steers your starting skills, stats, and starting gear towards a specific playstyle. But at any moment, even during character creation itself, you can start taking other skills to use instead with their efficacy being limited to certain attributes and the player being limited to only being able to have so many skills equipped at any given time.

[@naomihunter7749]

Glad to see you talk about this! For some reason, Class versus Skill based RPGs is one of those design topics I love to talk about and explore. I went through some phases of exploring the pros and cons of both myself over the years. I originally had a huge bias towards Skill based systems, and was immediately humbled when I dove into designing my own RPGs. Much of what you've listed resonates with my experiences with both, and honestly I've come to love them equally for what they are. Hey Tim, do you have a favorite TTRPG experience? Favorite character or a fun moment perhaps? I love hearing people's TTRPG stories in general, which of course I appreciate when you sprinkle them in.

[@mattcat83]

I like skills for mundane abilities anyone can learn but classes for supernatural powers that are exclusive to that class.

[@waybackintheday101]

I look forward to these videos. They've become part of my decompression routine after work. Thank you for sharing your opinions Tim.

[@lloydfromfar]

As someone who dislike class-based RPG system very strongly, and had to fight the D&D crowd a lot, I like your in-depth analysis :)

[@theprimordialbean2155]

It’s nice to hear you put into words what I’ve been struggling with in the process of developing my own TTRPG. It’s been a point of much debate between myself and another on my team. I think the answer (for us) is a little in between. Use a class system that is centered around a unique ability, then provide a list of skills for the player to choose from. The function of the unique skill can help point players in the right direction for which skills may be complimentary, but they still have the freedom to choose whatever other skills they want if they want to do something different.

[@adamdravian]

Great breakdown on the pros and cons of each, and I agree completely. Both have their place.

[@element1111]

Have always preferred skill based systems, simply because the choice felt more natural. Classes also often involve having to get acquainted with everything in that class, whilst if something catches my eye in a skill based system I can usually go with that without having to sink a lot of time into reading up on all the possibilities.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Classes also exist more for a group of characters, where everyone feel they add something to the table.

[@mercer6323]

I like the idea of Class based at the core, but having skills that can be earned, learned, purchased in some way that every class can obtain to have a degree of customization. Baldur's Gate 3 came out recently, I was fascinated that you can "multi-class". I don't know if you can have more than 3 classes or anything, but the idea is you have 12 levels, so you could be a level 6 fighter AND a level 6 Ranger, or a level 10 fighter and a level 2 cleric. If you multi-class, you have an incredible customization, but you'll never have enough levels to access a classes highest level skills.

[@Syaniiti]

1 of every one of the 12 classes works fine, there's even an achievement for it.

[@mercer6323]

@@Syaniiti LOL I need to try that.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

That is the thing in the old Baldur's Gate games. The base classes were really restrictive, but fairly solid. The variant classes and multiclasses gives you the option to play as you desire, and it is a joy to experience.

[@Syaniiti]

@@Duchess_Van_Hoof And dual-classing, which is very different from multiclassing. And a fighter was actually a better archer than a mage was, ofc you could be a fighter-mage who was slightly worse as a fighter than a pure fighter after a few levels but also a mage. Or just that classic Kensai/Mage grandmastering a weapon type. Although I think my most powerful character was a kensai/thief because of "use any item".

[@BlackJar72]

One big advantage to class based systems that has occurred to me, is that its much easier to package disadvantages with the advantages in a class based system -- sure, you add on an advantages vs. disadvantages system on top of the skills, like with Gurps, but part of that packaging of abilities for classes also means you can also package disadvantage that encourage the playstyle of a certain class.

[@ClockworkArchon]

As an addendum to a purely skill based system, a game can offer 'packages' of skills that align with certain tropes to help alleviate some of the user friendliness issues of not knowing which skills to pick. The Elder Scrolls games before Skyrim somewhat fit this role with it's classes and custom class options, allowing the player the safety of a predefined class or to pick their skills individually. In tabletop RPGs, a DM can easily help guide a player who is feeling uncertain or overwhelmed with a purely skill based system by asking them what they're imagining and offering suggestions and feedback about which skills fit, which will fit the setting, ect. The Soulsbourne games also offer an interesting middle-road solution of a 'soft' class system, where your class only affects your starting attributes and equipment, which implies what you should do if you want to fill the archetype the class fills, but doesn't restrict you to it is you want to make a heavily skewed character or if you want to branch out into other 'classes' territory. I almost think it's more valuable not to think of this purely in terms of Classes vs Skills as a binary and more of a spectrum. On one end, you've got 2nd editon D&D where your class is basically everything, on the other end something like GURPS, where it's all spending points for traits and skills. In between you have systems like the Elder Scrolls or Soulsborne where you have differing degrees of packaged character development vs freeform character development.

[@Mech4]

Classes was something I wished Bethesda had kept in Skyrim. I felt, without it, it was too easy to become a master of everything and even when I tried to play a character who was solely a mage I would still end up going into melee. Without classes my character felt undefined since, as you mentioned, the restrictions meant there were things I couldn't do. This was also because of how quests and guilds functioned in Skyrim. I like the flexibility just having skills provides but, yeah, the lack of structure causes issues with my attempts to roleplay.

[@zombygunslinger]

Interesting point, I would always play Skyrim essentially as a class. The game kind of subtly pushes you that way with the kind of enchantments certain items can have (and the skill tree you specialize int), so although a mage isn't restricted from armor the best magic buffs come from robes, etc.

[@Adamthegeek70]

Elder Scrolls Solo games have always been skill based. Classes were just skills, favorite stats, major and minor skills. Skyrim removed the class layer (till modders) ESO broke that model, and its why I think I just can't get into it. I wanted to make a fighter, or a ranger but I didn't want rocks erupting out of my body... It was just wrong and broke the setting for me.

[@lopa-u9f]

uhhyeah they are powerfantasies where they want the player to be able to do everything because mainstream fanboi shallow hedonism consumerism

[@teseutressoldi3972]

I disagree, I love skyrim just because it is skill based. You can build a character the way you want. My first character was an Argonian mage. I only put points in conjuration and destruction. And later in restoration. It was fun to experiment and test spells and tactics to beat all the encounters. Dying is part of learning. My second char was an archer. Then I put the game on legendary and discovered the best combo ever... conjuration sneak archer... my god I killed everything in sneak mode. It was awesome.

[@imo098765]

@@zombygunslinger You mean you played as a stealth archer

[@Adamthegeek70]

GURPS with a template system. Will always be my favorite, and best for balancing the game. You build classes with the existing skills and systems.

[@Rainessss]

Tim we love you and these videos. Keep fighting the good fight.

[@aNerdNamedJames]

Fascinating, and also makes me understand much better the design choice to have Outer World's re-allocation machine located right on the player's ship. Maybe another video could go over the design choices around re-allocation.

[@jmh8817]

The comparison with fantasy vs sci fi is extremely insightful and something I've been thinking about but didn't quite put into words before. I agree that classes are much more better in multiplayer or multi-character games, while preferring singleplayer single-character games. But, plot twist, I make tabletop rpgs, which is a multiplayer single-character experience. It's pretty tough, making sure to preserve people's ability to roleplay what they actually want (as opposed to a stock trope) while also making sure everything is balanced. But that's part of the reason it's so engaging.

[@247Barcaro]

Always enjoyable to hear your expertise. Keep up the good work.

[@gamedev3392]

Tim I love your perspective on this topic. Enlightening

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

I have an interesting observation regarding this. The old Fallout games had TAG skills being a thing of lasting consequence, and defined your character afterward. And while it offers freedom, it also holds potential for different roles in a potential party. Fallout: Equestria is fascinating in this regard, the protagonist has Lockpick, Sneak and Science. One companion is Repair, Small Guns and Survival. Another is Barter, Medicine and Speech. I quite like it, a synthesis of creative freedom and definite roles.

[@photonwerewolf9740]

After watching this video I took a moment to think of both class and skill rpgs I have played and I think I have gripes with both. I love the depth and colour writers and designers can give characters in class rpgs. You can go really nuts with a character's background. Though I think this is all the better for skill rpgs just like the examples you included in your video.

[@TorQueMoD]

Fantastic video as always! I never really thought about it before, but I really enjoyed all the nuance you put into this video :)

[@lastdayer101]

Tim, you're my favorite history teacher.

[@ethan6882]

Regardless of whether it's skill or class based, I think good customizability is the key for me. I love multi-classing and/or min-maxing different skills and feats to make a character build that is fun, unique and powerful. If there are only a few cookie-cutter boxes I have to fill in, that's boring.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

At the same time, it has to be managable and not a logistical nightmare like Pathfinder 1e today with its thousand of feats. Loved that game back when we had four books four player options.

[@Woodythehobo]

Morrowind was fun because it had a ton of skills but also class wrappers/templates containing relevant major/minor skills, but you could roll your own and even level outside of the class wrapper in misc skills, albeit more slowly.

[@DanielFerreira-ez8qd]

I like a mix of either, to be honest. That's what tabletops do and I really like the extra nuance of having a dextrous fighter vs. a strong one.

[@normanred9212]

Give Neverwinter Nights 1 a chance then, it combines Class and Skill together and it's really fun

[@charleschambers5600]

This took me back to trying out Ultima Online. There take on skills was that you gain proficiency in a skill by trying and succeding in performing a skill, and skills would degrade over time if not practiced, if memory serves me right. I thought it was neat at first, but it became a bit frustrating after a while.

[@MikhailKutzow]

Love to see a video like this. And I do agree with pretty much everything in it. I feel like class-based systems are what I enjoy more, but only because I think the best class systems are ones that give the player options that would be difficult or impossible to create with a skill-based system. Skill systems may allow the player to create whatever character they have in mind, but a good class system can provide players with character concepts they didn't even know they wanted to play until they saw it. At the same time I think a mediocre class-based system is generally worse than a mediocre skill-based system, and there are still many scenarios (such as more grounded settings) where I'd prefer skill-based anyway. So in the end, yeah, it's a complicated topic. Which is also what makes it so fun to talk about.

[@shiggydiggy6847]

I feel like both class and skill-based systems in CRPG's have the issue where you make your most defining build choices at the point where you know the least about the system and the particular game/campaign design. Though class based systems allow you to shoot your own foot much less if they are clear what the most important attributes are. But generally speaking you'll never know how much a particular skill will be checked and whether a particular weapon type will have good options available before you actually play the game or hear from it from third party.

[@SomethingLikesSonic]

My favorite part of the day is seeing a new Tim Cain video. ❤

[@lopa-u9f]

get a better life!

[@Tailmonsterfriend]

One of the many, many reasons I like the Adventure Game Engine that's used for example in Green Ronin's TTRPG for The Expanse is that you start out with a bunch of attributes and talents, but it's only once you've reached level 4 that you get to pick the system's equivalent to a class. So you give the players some time to feel out and customize their character build, and then once they're comfortable you go "Okay, NOW it's time to decide what direction you want to commit to for this character." And even better, later you get to pick a second class-equivalent that can either synergize with your first class or do something completely different if you want to round out your character some more. It's a really neat design decision because it recognizes that the class/skill/talent/whatever dichotomy can be balanced by postponing build choices that would normally happen during character creation.

[@markcarey7421]

Tim, I had a tabletop gaming group years ago who were all used to class based rpgs. I tried GURPS with them but it just didn't work. I'm so happy to have grown up in the 80s playing class based games like 1e D&D and Rolemaster and skill based games like GURPS.

[@Pedone_Rosso]

Wow. As just a video games' player I thought it only boiled down to familiarity vs flexibility. And I think that's a gross approximation that works fine for me most of the times. But seeing it from a designer point of view, now I get how the question actually has to go to places, in the farther corners of the topic, that cannot be ignored. Especially when multiplayer vs single-player and party vs single-playing-character are considered. Another eye opener for me. This channel is way more useful for non-programmers than Timothy Cain himself intended to. Or way more than he's explicitly saying, at the very least. Thanks for your videos!

[@RazielIgor]

I prefer class based system, but I can see now why it's better to use skill based system on a single character story. Thanks for the explanation 👍

[@davidcolby167]

The fantasy tropes and how players know them is why Pillars of Eternity works so well - the big plot twist in Pillars only works because you *know* that gods in fantasy are real!

[@markburke1396]

I'd love to hear his thoughts on Baldur's Gate 3. I just starting playing it and it is a different type of game then I usually play, but its actually so good. Never played anything D&D before, not very familiar with the IP or turn based action. but what I love most is the options and choices. you really can play any way you want and it actually fells like it matters.

[@ethan6882]

He's said that he doesn't want to review games, but I too would like to hear his thoughts even if it's in a non-review type way. I'm hopeful that the wild success of BG3 sparks a renaissance of turn-based CRPGs in the near-future.

[@bw126]

I need to give it another try. I just couldn't get into the story to start. Combat is great though

[@killertrip10]

"Divinity 3". Good god, how much does larian pay you guys. Freaking everywhere, like god damn leukemia.

[@lopa-u9f]

contending for most overrated game ever?

[@bluesolarisii-oscar]

Makes me like the souls-borne character creators, you have a couple class to pick from but nothing stops you from giving a wizard boi 50 points in strength and a giant ass hammer, all the creative builds that I’ve seen like the WALL, the vigour check, Giant Dad, etc. The Creativity is so abundant and I love it.

[@Hjorth87]

One of the reasons I love playing a Bard. They can be shaped into so many roles. And, especially relevant i single player games, they have great social skills to deal with NPCs

[@AspiringDevil]

It highly depends on your design goals obviously. If party dynamics & strategy are the focus class is a pretty good choice. The more open & solo focused a game is the more an open skill based system makes sense. I recently bounced off pathfinder Kingmaker. Despite being class based it still falls into that problem of several hours in me realizing this virtual DM has no real content planned for my class & the encounter difficulty is basically made around a hyper specific party. So I deleted & started over putting a very bad taste in my mouth despite liking most of the game. As poorly as they often handle it I really like Todd Howard's idea of the class being shaped as the player plays specifically level as you use it. allowing alot of skill flexibility for character building. Shame Bethesda has yet to really succeed at that design philosophy IMO.

[@the-real-Lovefist]

Skill based is better imo. Skill based games like Traveller and Runequest have been around about as long as D&D.

[@Ms.Pronounced_Name]

Skill-based has MUCH more replay value, but Class-based ensures a person won't sit down with a game and make a character that is basically incapable of succeeding. So if you can reliably convince the player that starting the game a 3rd time is worth it, skills IMO are massively better, but there are game types (and player types) where that is essentially impossible to ensure.

[@davidmorgan6896]

Both games came out in 1977. A few years behind Drudgeons & Doldrums, but 45 years on it hardly matters.

[@davidmorgan6896]

​@@Ms.Pronounced_NameSkill based doesn't, necessarily, mean you just puch up random skills. Both RQ and Traveller have career-based chargen.

[@braydoxastora5584]

Better because they've been around for awhile? Not exactly a useful metric

[@insomnolant6043]

@braydoxastora5584 He never said they were better because they've been around for a while. Learn how to read.

[@lt.gonflette649]

Fallout 2 might fit an interesting niche, as it is a single-player, skill-based RPG where you can only play as a human, but you could have a party full of non-human allies with all their inherent strengths and weaknesses. Love these vids Tim.

[@proydoha8730]

There is a community made roguelike sandbox videogame "Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead". Its an absolute mess of everything imaginable but it has one of the most fun skill-based character creation screens. You can make almost anything you an think of. But as fun as it is in the long run I'm still railroading my skills into current general "meta" character, no matter what I've started as and game gets stale. But every new start is very exciting. I love creating new characters in CDDA and surviving first week or two.

[@lopa-u9f]

check out "In Celebration of Violence"

[@StratoCatster]

Each video has a legendary preview😂

[@BarelyDecentProduction]

currently writing a final projects about class based rpg and this video really helped with some of the info, thank you sir

[@_zind]

This video made me think about why D&D 3.5 is such a sticky system for me and I just can't get it out of my head despite having played primarily 5e in recent years. It's a class-based system at its core which made it really easy to start playing because I could just open the PHB and flip to the Barbarian pages and instantly understand what I was supposed to be doing. Feats having certain attribute or skill prereqs really streamlined those choices as well so making a coherent, flavorful, playable character was just super straightforward. But then, in the system's later years you could could start with the question of "what do I want this character to DO" and then go digging through the hundreds of sources for new features, and with the sheer available variety of classes, feats, prestige classes, and alternate class features, you had a menu of stuff that let you almost treat it like more of a "skill"-based system. The best part about it is that the crazy stuff didn't even necessarily outpace the simple stuff. One of my favorite characters was a druid that was almost unrecognizable as a druid, because they were sprinting into battle at monk speeds swinging around a greatspear like a barbarian, but one of my other favorites was a completely by-the-book blaster psion who liked to open every battle with a juiced up barrage of fire missiles. Part of it is certainly just the magic of tabletop, but I think the system deserves a lot of credit for allowing both styles of character building to shine.

[@Draekdude]

What a great video! Thanks Tim!

[@knaz7468]

Good video. There is no right answer as you say: depends on too many factors including the players, party size and needs, etc. It is tough to do skill based unless the skills are well designed and tough for one character to get "all the best ones". A armor wearing, weapon master, stealthy lock picker, fireball caster. Unless it is a solo game as you mention. It's really on the player to understand what makes a good "build" and the mechanics of the game. Otherwise you end up with a useless character as you enter higher level play. Another way to do it is BOTH. A skill based system where as you become in expert in one or more areas (because of deep diving), you then get access to "class like" abilities as a pay off for becoming that "type" of character. For example you go deep into picking locks, disarming traps, etc ... and less so on magic, armor, combat ... then you now have access to "thief only" abilities (ex: smoke bomb, persuasive liar, unbreakable lockpicks, roof running, whatever ...). This allows for seamless "adjacent multi-classing" as well (which is always awkward in a class only system). You might be a thief+assassin for example, or a thief+swashbuckler. It also lets you aim for specific expertise instead of being spread too thin and mediocre in everything at high level and having no tools in your belt to solve issues (ex: direct combat vs sneak around vs magical illusions/traps, etc).

[@idnyftw]

working on my rpg project (think pentiment meets dragon quest) I discovered that classes work great during combat mode and skills work great during roleplay mode, so it's basically spending "job points" for your chosen classes unlocks spells and special moves, while putting in "talent points" brings out new interactions and choices during dialogue and exploration

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Valid point there. This is why I love Backgrounds in 5e, this adds a non-combat element for every character. And the inspiration mechanic incentivices roleplaying out of combat.

[@idnyftw]

@@Duchess_Van_Hoof yep, I mean I sorta know the theory, but didn't realize the true effectiveness until I built a thing of my own, so yeah I got basically a standard rpg maker project but it encourages dialogue and exploration because of the possible outcomes and reactions one gets based on which talents the player invested on

[@SilverionX]

Great comparison! Like so many other things class vs skill based isa facet of your system, a tool to use in defining the game.

[@Distortion0]

Answer is neither obviously and to do 100% equipment based progression.

[@eggbert6900]

Tim I love you. You're a great dude, but your xcom lore knowledge is medium tier. Reapers are humans!

[@michaelbolland9212]

I love how they added Alternate Advancement points to everquest which is inherently a class system

[@nw42]

This is more for TTRPGs, but I really like how Cyberpunk 2020 (Interlock system) handles classes. It's almost a hybrid class/skill system which is the best of both worlds, where each class is defined by one "special ability" and 9 "career" skills. The special abilities are fairly simple-each is defined in only a sentence or two-but distinctive and powerful. The Solo/merc's "Combat Sense" ability directly adds to their initiative & awareness rolls, which makes them shockingly lethal. The Nomad's "Family" ability allows them to call in family members for assistance-a powerful & flexible ability which requires some cleverness & political caution. The Corporate's "Resources" ability allows them to tap the considerable resources of a megacorp. Etc. etc. etc. The career skills are just standard skills, but most of your points can _only_ be invested in your special ability & career skills. E.g. a Solo's career skills are awareness, handgun, brawling/martial arts, melee, weapons tech, rifle, athletics, SMG, and stealth. A Nomad's are awareness, endurance, melee, rifle, drive, basic tech, wilderness survival, brawling, athletics. A Corporate's are awareness, human perception, education, library search, social, persuasion, stock market, wardrobe & style, personal grooming. The remainder of your total points must be invested in non-career skills, ensuring that your character isn't too narrowly-defined: you might have a very stylish & philosophical solo, or a streetwise Corpo who came from the slums and really knows how to use a knife. Overall, the classes are simple and flexible, while focused enough to ensure an effective build. A solo can be almost any fighter archetype: tank, sniper, ninja, etc. A Corpo can be a detached executive, a sleazy salesman, or a bookish market researcher. A Nomad can belong to a family of scrounging desert survivalists, or be the leader of an urban biker gang. If further customization is required, they're simple enough that they can easily be tweaked, or the GM/players can invent entirely new classes: if you have a solid concept, you just need to invent a special ability and everything else pretty much flows from that. The classes also did an excellent job of educating players about the setting: the cyberpunk genre is really well-established _now,_ but back in the 80s/early 90s they really helped new players understand the social structure of the world. Solo, nomad, rockerboy, netrunner, corporate, techie, med tech, media, cop, fixer: okay, now I _get_ it. Now I have a handle on what this dystopian society values and how it operates. Classes (in general) can be a great way to invite players into a setting.

[@rickmercer7667]

Class based with customization are pretty cool. Look at the original edition of Feng Shui. Tons of classes, or archetypes as they were called. The necessary pieces were there, with points to customize. Very cool game.

[@MarcinWanago]

What about Morrowind where you have the option to create your own class?

[@jamestolliver9970]

When it comes to tabletop I tend to prefer 'tag' based systems where you build your character up with narrative tags. This is similar to skill based systems but I think allows for even more flexibility. And a big part of a lot of narrative games is shaping the story around your characters instead of plopping them into something they don't fit in. This would be pretty hard to do in video games though so I can go either way there.

[@LOC-Ness]

hmmm that's a challenge worth taking on...

[@nutherefurlong]

Despite my preference for systems without classes, one thing they help with tangential to what you mention about tropes is that they're good for world building, showing how the people in this setting might interact with their world. But maybe I want more of a build-a-class than a rigid structure even so (Knave springs to mind, you hear of that?), not to break the builds but just achieve some sort of interesting archetype that might still exist within those parameters. Skills can also be hard to get right as far their scope, and sometimes skills without little additions can feel a bit plain. Maybe Traveller (1977 onward) does it well because even a point can easily make a difference since rolls are on a curve, and the advancement is more about what you do. Traveller also has the character origin system (Darklands does that, it's fun) that sort of creates a custom "class" in a way, since someone with a few points in melee is likely to get the fancy sword. The combat expectations thing, though, that's a whole other big can of worms (RIP savoir faire)

[@kahir8642]

For video games specifically, I have complicated feelings about classes because on the one hand I like the concept of having kits that create strong identities and mechanical distinctions between characters. I think there's fun contrast there, and I find reasonable restrictions a fun challenge to play around. I do like flexibility a lot, but in some cases I feel like it can cheapen your character's focus if you can theoretically solve any problem by just coming back after you've shifted your skill focus on the next few level ups, which can become a real problem if the game is too lenient with its level cap or supply of skill points. But I really hate arbitrary-feeling restrictions and overly-specific archetypes that limit RP, too, which is an issue I have with almost every class-based system I've seen. I really like the Job system in Final Fantasy Tactics though. It has that element of theming and cohesion with specific archetypes, but it gives you a lot of freedom to mix-and-match them. You have the main set of abilities from your active class, a second set from any other class you've learned (so you could make a Knight cast Black Magic if you taught him that class, it's sort of like multiclassing but without having to make tradeoffs in how much you want to learn from one or the other), a Support ability that lets you do something the class normally can't do (like putting Equip Sword on a mage), and a Reaction and Movement ability which allow for more granular flexibility. For a more roleplay-centric game you'd probably want to modify this, because it's very gamey the way characters can switch between these at will between missions. I'm not sure how you'd make it something more committal and believable without robbing the system of too much of its customization. Interesting to think about. Pillars of Eternity is another game that kind of solved class restrictions for me by just saying that mages are allowed to wear armor and cast spells if they really want to (to be fair I never tested if it's worth doing but I like that you can.) I think if the old Elder Scrolls games with class creation had more unique sets of abilities like DND does (as opposed to just numerical stats), the concept of creating your own class in that system where you can combine all sorts of distinctive abilities into a personalized, cohesive kit would be the most appealing class system to me. Basically cut out the middleman of multiclassing and let me pick and choose exactly what I want from each archetype and let me see if they work together. It would be hard to balance, though, and it would be *very* easy for new players to fall into traps with it. This idea can probably only exist in some insane indie RPG that doesn't care about usability.

[@imo098765]

I love some class based RPGs when its specialisation for the classes are amazing just throwing the idea, if starter class is a fighter/tank 1 - improve your characters faith they unlock the ability to use holy power to become a Paladin/Templar 2 - Focus on strength dont use a shield, you can unlock beserker 3 - Have faith but a negative "karma" system, the evil gods will bestow you power to become their emissary It still gives a little flexibility but also increases the role playing aspects of class

[@Elrog3]

The advantages that a class system has over a skill system for players are all solved by just giving presets. So the only reason not to go with a skill system is if you want to make the development easier.

[@Robert399]

I generally prefer skill systems and yeah presets help a lot. But I do find they often end up with characters feeling pretty similar, which is probably why party-based games and MMOs avoid it

[@AdellRedwinters]

I like a mix of both!

[@GallumA]

I did not like Baldur's Gate 3. It's a weird thing for me, but it really showed me what I don't like about CRPGs, and to put it in a simple sense, if Kenshi is 0 (not sure if you've played that), and BG3 is 10 - I think I want a game that is a 3.5. Kenshi has such an unusual levelling system where failing levels you faster, but the game doesn't end at a fail unless you really mess up. You get beaten up, left for dead, then wait to recover and now your toughness stat is higher, your block stat may be higher, etc. Or you get captured and imprisoned where you can lockpick continuously until you learn to escape. The constant failing, IS the growth. I find that so novel and so awesome for an RPG. That you succeed downward before you begin succeeding upward. I wait for the day when a game comes out that combines the story telling of wonderful RPGs with such an organic, zero-to-whatever character development as found in Kenshi. I think with that, Class of a character is organic, it's whatever that character learns to do first.

[@wizardscrollstudio]

I like skill based and race as class.

[@enduser8410]

After playing a bit of BG3 and coming Fallout and Paradox strategy games, I can respect how class-based systems allow smaller size/scope devs to focus their efforts into other strengths of the game like dialogue and branching paths. Those things can then substitute/make up for the variety found in skill-based systems. It also sounds more straightforward to make content for and balance, and made me realize how much of a nightmare skill-based systems could be due to being so open ended. You have to make content that at least feels like it resonates and reflects any number of player characters or styles. It's a careful balance, but in my opinion I prefer the skill-based systems of FNV and TOW by far. They commit to player agency all around.

[@ImpossibleCakePro]

I feel like Pathfinder 1st edition was able to split the difference between class and skill-based characters. Over the decade or so of first-party releases the sheer volume of options for archetypes and feats to tweak the existing class into something class-adjacent with a whole new set of skills or playstyle lets one go wild with the possibilities of characters with a unique gimmick or goal while still being able to keep up with more well-rounded characters. Last game I played we had a Fighter player masquerading as a wizard who dumped all his skill points into Use Magic Item and nobody questioned it, the most unusual thing about him was how he was insistent on how he was Very Definitely A Wizard.

[@StavrosNikolaou]

I fell in love with skill based systems through your games (well and Morrowind) and I rarely go back 😊 I love these design trade-off talks thank you so much for yet another wonderful video!!!😊

[@Musclecore777]

Man, listening to your thoughts on how to DM or not made me think that it would be great if you lead a campaign with whomever you wish and recorded it. Like once a month or so, play for a few hours, upload the audio/video.

[@gamedev_zombie]

I'd love to see you run a DnD/GURPS campaign on stream with some other game developers, similar to what Critical Role is doing.

[@Greifeldb]

Great video! Do you have any thoughts on level based vs no level systems? Like Fallout & Arcanum are skill based systems with levels, while something like VTM Bloodlines has classes but no levels, and something like Shadowrun doesn't have classes (in theory) or levels.

[@BloodyEyeGames]

Hey Tim, I'd love to get your perspective on which less-popular TTRPG you enjoyed playing and why. Thanks.

[@TheMylittletony]

Are you familiar with the classes in D20 Modern? They seem to be on the middle ground between these two 'extremes'.

[@allluckyseven]

I think there's a balance there that I haven't seen yet in a TTRPG, or at least none comes to mind. A list of "professions" (or "templates" in GURPS) is a good thing to sort of put the players on track. Those would come with a list of skills the player could pick and choose from, leaving some points to add to other skills, unrelated to that profession (like Call of Cthulhu does). And you don't really need hundreds of skills. Or at least those don't need to be presented upfront. You could instead buy points in skill "groups" (sort of what the Wildcard Skills are in GURPS) and then buy more points in specializations (which would be what GURPS skills are, very specific) if you wanted to. By the way, if there will ever be a GURPS 5th Edition, I hope they'll go for this structure/framework. Now, in a computer RPG, things can be made in a way that's much more convenient to the player. The players don't need to be overwhelmed by the amount of skills the game has; the game would essentially do the work a GM would in restricting the skills according to certain roles/tropes/classes/professions. I don't remember if it was Neverwinter Nights or that computer program that WOTC had for D&D 3.0 that had one thing that when I saw for the first time, I thought it would be an essential feature for every CRPG made in the future (or companion app for a TTRPG): A "recommended skills" button. I believe one of those also had an auto-fill feature to speed things up even further. EDIT: Let me add a third thing... I think that prepping a session for a Class-based system and a Skills-based system is fundamentally different. The first one can be much more about the GM's own story and setting, and the second one has to be much more tailored to the player character's skills, otherwise you will end up with the super specialized Savoir-faire character that doesn't have anything to do in a combat situation other than take cover. Although on the class-based system here I'm thinking specifically D&D, that has only a handful of classes, rather than a Warhammer Fantasy that has a truckload of careers.

[@BlackPepper77]

Sir mr dr right honourable mr Tim. Please share your thoughts on Clockwork Revolution.

[@fredericbrown8871]

Classes (referring to clans, I would assume) in Bloodlines didn't feel that restrictive to me and I never had the impression it was punished for playing a Tremere whose combat skill was hand-to-hand. So if that one was meant to be class-based, good job on allowing flexibility!

[@lonneansekishoku8288]

I like how Eso did it. You do have a class, but it's only a small part of your character. There's a lot of guild, weapon, armor, craft, etc. skill lines.

[@pinko7429]

I played a game called Cataclysm dark days ahead and I made a character that was a papergirl, so she started with a bicycle, and had skills in driving and throwing, eventually I made myself a sling staff so I would cycle aroudn to places, and throw rocks at zombies until they died. Works pretty well if you're smart about it

[@freeagent9511]

class based is easier to balance? laughs in ranger :) but on serious note, i personaly think class based is way harder to balance, every class based game (both tabletop and computer) i ever played had over and underperforming clases, and very distinct separation between them. add that choice is locked to few or several classes, this never ends well. on the other side, skill based games are not balanced in any way top down - as you can take whatever you want for your character, making any balance issues the player choice. and also nothing stoping said player to get the one or two overperforming skils/talents/whatever to balance out thier otherwise underperforming set. thanks for the video, have a great day.

[@Novous]

I know it's traditional, but I kinda hated games that forced you to pick from a hundred skills, with ZERO insight into how often or useless they are, and basically screwed you because you were set in stone the rest of the game. It basically forces you to play a game for a couple hours, then restart once you realize "oh, this game has stealing but there's basically nothing of value to steal so that was a waste". Similar with classes. You play a class thinking its cool then you find out all the cool stuff you wanted to do, your class can't do.

[@ShrikeGFX]

There is a fundamental balance and scale between customization and identity if you allow free mix and match, it will often all blend together into a mass without identity If you make strict classes you have no customization and your class has identity but your player has none I think the best is to make classes with choices in skills

[@ValdVincent]

I really would like it if you would go over all the table top RPG's you've played over the years.

[@EnneaIsInterested]

I would really like it if you could pick an optional starter selection of skills and feats, a class, that's two effective levels ahead, OR a 1st-level character you pick all the skills of.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

I for one quite like 2e AD&D in its class system. There are the four basic and reliable classes with clear roles. However, there are also advanced options and multi-classing if those are too limiting. I like the elegance in it, a solid structure, and a subversion that doesn't quite undermine the main four. Pathfinder with its dozens of classes and scores of archetypes, or D&D 5e with so many subclasses just... it gets messy. Everything has to have its quirk or trick, and it ends up being cluttered and overwhelming. As a half-elven fighter/mage in 2e, I am half a fighter and half a mage. And it holds up all the way to epic levels without being a logistical nightmare.

[@MortalReaver]

I like Classes, with ability to customize. For Example having classic Fighter, but he has skills Find/Disable Traps and Lockpicking. Or Mage focused on buffs party and some buffs to be very good with bow. That way you can really go full on traditional class, or you can customize it (muticlassing/prestige/feats/skill points) to be little something else.

[@alexpetrovich85]

Hey Tim, you watched the Extra Credits dev series back in the day, right? ... Getting those good vibes again.

[@ThaetusZain]

What's you're opinion on soft classes? The definition I'm working from is that the class is more like a very rigid GURPS template but you can level/advance however you want? Or like Diablo 1 where, your fighter and rogue can be magic users. I wouldn't focus on magic for either of them but the rogue can actually be quite capable at it and giving your fighter a couple spells is not poor strategy. Hell all of them should have just enough int to cast town portal and identify if you can find the tomes. There's something about skill based systems that I can't get away from. There has to be a static range of competence. In GURPS that savoire faire character can still participate in combat and be a threat depending on the TL just by diverting 4-8 points away (which is likely +2 to the skill in 4e, don't remember if it's the same in earlier editions). That's enough to roll, at least DX +0, in 2 average weapons. With 10 DX that's 50% base chance to hit most things. That's not good, but its not useless. You could at least pick your battles or risk stabbing someone in the thigh (preferably distracted) and booking it. But you would have to do a lot of rebalancing to make D&D classless.

[@jimnms]

I think I slightly prefer class based, though I think I create characters faster in skill based CRPGs vs. class based. Knowing I'll be stuck with a class for the whole game, I try out a few before settling on one. I remember it took me about 6 hours to create my first character in Pillars. A good bit of that though was reading about the races and backgrounds and lore. Leveling up in skill based games is generally faster too because I focus on 2-3 skills before branching out. In class-based, level ups can sometimes feel like character creation all over again. The way it was in the first Pillars was faster because I was presented with only what I could pick. In Pillars 2, seeing that progression tree, I tended to sit and study it and try to plan out my future level ups.

[@exessqd100]

You are insightful person

[@psimobius1273]

I think I would have definitely used your players Savoir-Faire a bit differently. Granted I don't have the full context of the encounter. But I would have used it as an opportunity to allow the group to engage in some level of dialogue. Would it have ended the conflict. Possibly yes, or possibly no. but giving them the opportunity to roleplay while bullets are flying is really interesting and potentially extremely memorable.

[@lopa-u9f]

I think stuff like that could work more as circumstance-based effects, like debuff taunts, distractions (perhaps a successful roll with an individual enemy causes that enemy to lose a turn because they are distracted by your shenanigans or taunts or whatever) get a henchman into a bickering match for 3 rounds butyeah, implementation of skills is all about the game setup

[@MFKitten]

Imagine if there was a "learning by observation" type party skill sharing system in a class based game, where characters that spend time with other classes in combat start picking up skills a little at a time. I have no idea where that would go and how it would affect everything else. But I like the idea :p

[@Colin-i9z]

here's a fun question: if Fallout had been made a class-based RPG, what classes do you think would have been in the game? i guess this is a hard question to answer myself because i can only conceive of the classes in terms of what existing skills they would use, like "merc" probably specializing in guns, barter, and maybe... outdoorsman? i like classes because they make it easier for me to try different playstyles and roleplay as different characters because the details have already been worked out for me, and in a skill based system usually i end up playing the same way every time?

[@TheYashakami]

I like modular class systems with skill based leveling on top.

[@ebrim5013]

Or you can do a little of both. Begin with a few defined archetypes for easy entry but then have character development be more free form. I know that I have at this stage in my life little patience for involved character creation systems, I kinda want hit random and go. But if I do get invested in a game, I like being able to improve in different ways and lean into the parts of the game I enjoy more.

[@phancoom1087]

This isn't a WRPG, but I'd love to see your thoughts on LISA: the Painful RPG. It's a darkly comedic survival-focused more JRPG-esque type game but it's the best post-apocalypse game I've played alongside the first Fallout, and I'd kill to see your opinions on how it goes about conveying the setting.

[@robertbreedlovecraft]

I have a completely unrelated question: When a high profile game comes out that's in the same genre of a game you are currently developing does that have any influence over design decisions? Obviously this question is in reference to both Starfield and Outer Worlds 2 and you certainly don't have to go into any detail, but I'm curious if there is any discussion over at Obsidian either about taking system or narrative cues from Bethesda or creating more distinction between the two games. Or is it just not taken into consideration since Bethesda and Obsidian already have their own distinct core philosophy to designing open world FPS RPGs?

[@Jaqinta]

Hello sir there is also one another based methodology but only few companies use that which you might heard of is experience based system soo all skills starts with level 1 when you use that skill you get experience by using that skill soo your next skill improves based on how much you use that skills on . I also expect some companies while using that lik used in fallout 1 and 2 can be 3 skill be selectable as you experienced a little bit more it's like background profile of yours or might be something like background story of your character in which backstory you choose , some of your skills starts with range of some skill levels . When you sir publish some this kind of interesting video , i just wondered in your own games how you manage to do RNG ( Random Number Generator ) algorithm ? in your own written code engine did you use like simple random number picker like reading some number in memory in some random amount of time is given ? or is there like some kind of deep algorithm that randomness is different in each event . And in either of them did you sir picking number range based on the event you are needing in ? like if there might be critical strike damage on some weapon ? does the random generator range different from each weapon or the weapon type ? I really , really , really would like to know about how you manage to do randomness in your games , what are the algorithms or strategies you using . Thank you sir for this wonderfull video . Have a wonderfull life to you and to your family .

[@galdersrontgorrth]

for single player games the best systems are those from like diablo 1 and tes iv oblivion since classes are more of a suggestion. they define your major skills, but you can learn the other skills as minors too.

[@DrGarkng]

I like Pathfinder 1e because even though its class based, it has so many options via archetypes and large number of classes that you get the variety of skill based if you want to make a very specific character, whilst still having the "role" aspect. There hasn't been an idea I haven't been able to pull off with that system. The downside is that it requires a lot more reading and research than say, DND 5e, which puts off a lot of people.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

It also works better early on before the system got cluttered with redundant material. How many not-wizards fo we need? Conceptually different options are amazing, multiple options for the same thing can get taxing.