California High Speed Rail: Good Idea or Big Mistake?

[@TexMexTraveler]

Thanks for the video. As an engineer (P.E.) that did some feasibility work on the California HSR, I can tell you that it is absolutely possible to route the train over the grapevine. It is also possible to route it roughly along the I-5 corridor in the San Joaquin Valley, as well as long the 101 route you highlighted. From a strictly engineering perspective, we can build most things that many would think are impossible. But as you rightly pointed out, the cost is politically and financially prohibitive. As engineers, we can design you the absolute best project, the safest, and the most productive, but we can only build what politicians are willing to pay for and what the relevant governing agencies can afford to pay for. This often involves compromises.

[@davidjackson7281]

Do you have any thoughts on the idea of tunnelling through the Cerro Grade between Paso Robles and San Luis Obispo?

[@TexMexTraveler]

@@davidjackson7281 There are two geological structures, the Coastal Range and the Transverse Range, both are seismically active and cross the area you are asking about. I do not have highly detailed information about the specific area you are asking but based on known and previous surveys and such, you can certainly tunnel through. Again, the cost may prove to be more than what politicians and governing authority can afford to pay given the cost of tunneling and additional work needed to ensure any seismic activity will not cause rail operations to be interrupted. Additional earthquake alerting systems need to be install so that when a sensor detects the P wave, it sends out alerts to trains in the area so they can stop or slow down so that when the earthquake reaches them, they don't become victims.

[@davidjackson7281]

@@TexMexTraveler Is the Coastal Range where the Cerro Grade is? Is the Tranverse Range between Santa Maria and Santa Barbara? Rather than a HSR project would there be any merit to a Brightline type train averaging 80 mph on this coastal route?

[@davidjackson7281]

@@TexMexTraveler Thanks for your comments.

[@silver_bowling]

I actually disagree on this, I don't think the grapevine is doable. Yes, the track could be constructed, even with the wide curves required for high speeds. But trains simply aren't able to sustain such steep grades for such a long distance, with most trains only able to maintain speed at up to 2% grades. The TGV in france briefly (

[@Y.d.o.b.o.n]

Video idea: I never hear about the islands of california, maybe a geographic profile of just the islands??

[@JammastaJ23]

Ooh yeah seconded great suggestion

[@themaxx8101]

Maybe a video about national parks with low visitors (including channel islands)

[@charmoka]

That is a great idea! I Iived in LA and Santa Barbara and always wondered about those islands. I did go to Catalina when I was a kid, but it just made it more mysterious.

[@acuritis]

One whole island is a Navy Seal training site!

[@realmajimac]

One of those is San Clemente Island which is a Navy bombing range and a wildlife preserve

[@danielvirtue3592]

Thanks for making this video. CAHSR gets so much bad press for the costs, bureaucracy, nimbyism and politics surrounding it, and my opinion is that a lot of it stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of what high speed rail economically accomplishes for a region. You did an excellent job capturing how this would impact the state.

[@KRYMauL]

It makes more sense when you look at the regional plans. The High Speed line is the just the magnum opus, but all the regional and commuter rail lines are getting really good. I don't the US likes anything done French style, so they probably should've just upgraded the tracks to 200 km/h and increased frequency.

[@qjtvaddict]

Yes when it actually does reach cities

[@qjtvaddict]

@@KRYMauLaround the Bay Area yes

[@ridesharegold6659]

You missed the primary reason for using Pacheco and Tehachapi/Palmdale. It's so HSR can connect to the existing commuter rail. People forget that large parts of the route are already built. CAHSRA is making upgrades to Caltrain and Metrolink tracks to make them suitable for HSR. They're not building a new route through the suburbs.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you. I really should have mentioned that

[@tonywalters7298]

And San Jose is quick to remind people that they are larger in population than San Fransisco and did not want to be relegated to a branch so SJ politicians lobbied for pacheco

[@jamadm55]

😅also would be able to meet up with the Vegas line

[@TohaBgood2]

@@tonywalters7298 There's also the tiny detail of HSR ridership from Silicon Valley to LA. It's obvious that a large chunk of the ridership will come from tech commuters and business travelers. It would be pretty insane to put your main ridership generator on a spur.

[@GArails408]

For lifelong Bay Area & CA residents like my self, this video hits many things spot on. For others outside of CA they might have a harder time understanding the makeup of the valley and economics within the region. Great video!

[@chairmanlmao4482]

I think you really got at something powerful around the 14 minute mark. As someone who grew up in a boring rural town of 40,000 people, I would've loved having a train service to and from the state capital as a teenager/young adult.

[@mostlyguesses8385]

As teen would you ever pay $50 each way for train ticket into downtown hour away?? Rather than 5 of you jam in car and pay $5 gas??? Hi speed trains are for rich commuters and rich vacationers, it's a lot like a plane, do any teens fly to different metro for fun 1-2 days?? Ha. We work and play mostly in 1 metro, it's the weirdos who often want to hop metros, mostly rich yuppies, not teens, poor, or middle class ....... AS A GOOD TEST how many teens or you ever took the $20 Greyhound bus into downtown from countryside, same route and almost time, but not damn many, ha, people don't like not have car upon arrival ..... I take bus lots but rest of white people want their car, just a fact, greyhound is poor people, trains wll worst mix the poor won't afford it and the rich will want their car........ I'm just saying it's weird to have non bus riders gush how they'll totally use a train, haha!! Peace

[@estelaangeles2346]

Was your small town peaceful or was your town dangerous like big cities

[@razzy1]

@@estelaangeles2346 Why are you saying big cities are dangerous?

[@arlenbell4376]

It all depends on ticket price

[@chairmanlmao4482]

@@estelaangeles2346 My hometown is one of the safest in the entire country, its just extremely boring.

[@HollywoodF1]

The history of the West was that the smaller cities followed the railroad and not the other way around. The RR’s had employees whose entire job was town-making. They would lay out the streets, establish a post office, school, library, a bank and a store. Then they’d sell the property for more than they bought it for. And those towns by and large are still there. I wouldn’t worry about stations that don’t seem to serve towns. If you build it, the town will happen.

[@eriklakeland3857]

Just like the NYC Subway. Pictures of the 7 train in Queens when it was first built shows a “train to nowhere.” The city grew up around the train stations

[@bryanCJC2105]

I think you're right. The San Joaquin Valley will be one of the main beneficiaries of HSR. HSR is the San Joaquin Valley's last hope for economic revival after 40+ years of stagnation and decline. Fresno's downtown skyline looks exactly the same today as it did in the late 70s (except for new govt civic center). Moving to the San Joaquin Valley may save money but it will cost in other ways: horrible air pollution, very high poverty, very high crime, lack of services, etc. Living in the Valley is not an easy thing. I'm from Fresno and had horrible allergies, asthma, and lots of respiratory illnesses until I moved to Los Angeles and could breathe the much cleaner air of LA (even the LA smog of the 80s and 90s was cleaner), where my breathing cleared up. Although I am totally comfortable in 90-100 degree heat. It's a dry heat as they say. I hope that HSR really does lift up the Valley because it's been forgotten and left to stagnate for decades. The Valley cities used to be great middle class and lively cities in the 60s and before. They had a substantial middle class. Since then, their economies have declined, and the middle class has nearly disappeared. These cities are divided between the well off and the poor and struggling w very few in the middle. It's hard to find a good career in these cities unless you want to work for the govt. or you own a successful business. Educated young people have to leave for SF or LA. Cities like Fresno are banking hard on distribution centers for employment but those are all minimum wage jobs. As I see it, HSR is the last hope for change. After 40 years, everything they've tried so far to revive their downtowns and improve their economies has failed. Fresno may be 1 1/2 hrs by HSR from San Francisco but it will only be 1 hour from San Jose which opens the door for Fresno to become a bedroom community for Silicon Valley and the South Bay. Not everyone is needing to go to San Francisco. In fact, San Francisco is a smaller market than San Jose. Lots of people and businesses in the Valley do business in the San Jose area (except perhaps not many Kern Co residents). In fact, my Mom had to go to a hospital in Stanford to have a procedure done that was not available in Fresno. And yes, the Hanford/Visalia HSR station is in a weird location (It's 3.5 miles outside of Hanford). In fact, I don't even think it's necessary. It was probably politically necessary because every San Joaquin Valley city sees HSR as the last chance for economic prosperity. Since they're not following the BNSF RR ROW exactly (in many places it's 5 miles or more away from it), I don't see why they couldn't veer off the 10 miles for a much more worthy Visalia station. There used to be a railroad from Merced to Yosemite. It would be cool if a heritage railroad could take tourists up to Yosemite. Of course, most of it is gone so the whole RR would have to be rebuilt but hey, if money's no object. I don't agree that HSR should have gone along the coast. For one thing, it's a much less populated route. None of the cities between LA and San Jose along the coast are in the top 20 populated cities in CA. The San Joaquin Valley has 4 of them (Fresno, Bakersfield, Stockton, and Modesto). Furthermore, as with most HSR routes worldwide, they don't serve only the two end points. There is plenty of traffic in between. Amtrak's San Joaquin line between Bakersfield and Oakland is the nation's 6th busiest Amtrak line. So, it would not be a good idea for a line that has to make a lot of money to be profitable to forego that corridor. The San Joaquins would be perhaps the 3rd or 4th highest in ridership if it could go to Los Angeles. The Amtrak Pacific Surfliner from San Diego to San Luis Obispo is the 3rd busiest but most of that traffic is from San Diego to LA. The Fresno, Bakersfield, and Santa Barbara stations see ridership of 1000+/day while Merced and San Luis Obispo get about 280/day. As for the geography along the 101 corridor, while there are stretches of valley to use, there is still a considerable amount of tunneling that would be required to maintain the amount of straight track and wide turns required for high speed. Even Metrolink has to take a circuitous route to get from LA to Ventura. The RR runs right along the shore in Ventura and Santa Barbara counties. A HSR line would be impossible to build there from a HSR geometry perspective as well as environmentally. It's similar to the way HSR will need to go inland to Riverside to get to San Diego. The RR from San Clemente to San Diego runs right along the shore, which is crumbling. As I understand it, tunneling through the Tejon Pass apparently has a lot of geological challenges. There are no railroads over the Tejon Pass. The existing railroad over the Tehachapi Pass to Antelope Valley is steep enough, requiring several tight turns and loops to manage the change in elevation. That is a beautiful map of California!!

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you for the detailed comment. I figured the 101 corridor isn't feasible, but in a fantasy world I'd love to see a second route going down the coast. I'm not as sure about Fresno, but Visalia got a large influx of work-from-home Silicon Valley people in the 90s and early 2000s. At the time people were not too fond of the fast growth, but I think in the end it was very beneficial to the city. I could see something similar happening in Fresno.

[@robwo]

Yikes! That's a bunch of words, all of them on target. I've lived in Bakersfield, Visalia, Fresno (even Clovis), and coastal cities. Your dissertation is newspaper worthy. I hope a lot of non-Californians get a chance to read it.

[@PCSPounder]

@@GeographyKing I have taken Amtrak Coast Starlight and I know that the trip really slows between Paso Robles and San Luis Obispo because of the terrain. I’m sure that can be overcome, but I wonder how the San Andreas factors in. I think you know the same route goes up the East Bay. Meanwhile, it will cost $6.7 billion just to extend CalTrain 1.3 miles into downtown San Francisco (the same tunnel also being the final segment of HSR). The Peninsula issue (since I’m not sure we want to run HSR on the CalTrain tracks) is land. It’s supremely expensive. I’m sure NIMBYs are a factor, but that doesn’t help. If I got to make the decision, I’d replace I-280 with it, and I’m damn sure I’d get voted out for that.

[@00crashtest]

@@GeographyKing Don't worry, we'll have it in 60 years if the demand is there. Not having it planned for now doesn't necessarily mean it will never be built. They're not mutually exclusive. Granted, we might not able to live until that is reality, but at least our descendants will get to enjoy it if we have any. Who knows? Maybe the demand and popularity on the Central Valley Interstate 9 HSR will be so great that the US decides to build an Interstate HSR network and have it mostly completed in just 25 years, just like how the Interstate Highway System was planned circa 1948, started construction in 1956 and was mostly complete by 1976.

[@dwc1964]

@@GeographyKing in a similar vein to part of my long-winded stand-alone comment - from my motorcycling experience I can tell you why the 101 corridor won't work: *it's too much fun on a motorcycle* north into Monterey County and south towards Santa Barbara, and anything fun on a motorcycle is unsuitable for rail, particularly HSR.

[@reginafromrio]

Having been raised in California, I have been wanting this my entire life. I come from Santa Barbara County and I think the reason a high-speed train might not be able to stay on that 101 route is because you have to actually go through San Luis Obispo The 101 stops at San Luis Obispo so you have to go through town to get back onto it or you can choose Highway 1. There is a train that already goes through San Luis Obispo and over the pass onto Atascadero, so I believe it's possible to get through that pass as well. Thanks again, Kyle! Love your videos!

[@promontorium]

It can't go along the coast because it would cost trillions of dollars.

[@chasbodaniels1744]

And maybe erode into the Pacific Ocean in 50 years?

[@00crashtest]

Don't worry, we'll have it in 60 years if the demand is there. Not having it planned for now doesn't necessarily mean it will never be built. They're not mutually exclusive. Granted, we might not able to live until that is reality, but at least our descendants will get to enjoy it if we have any. Who knows? Maybe the demand on the Central Valley Interstate 9 HSR will be so great that the US decides to build an Interstate HSR network and have it mostly completed in just 25 years, just like how the Interstate Highway System was planned circa 1948, started construction in 1956 and was mostly complete by 1976.

[@ryantelemko2313]

Great video Kyle! As a civil engineer, who’s worked on commuter rail projects, I appreciate your perspective and highlighting this movement.

[@TexMexTraveler]

Where have you done rail projects? I'm a PE in Texas and would love to get some input on rail services in Texas.

[@ryantelemko2313]

@@TexMexTraveler I was working on the Sound Transit lines up in the Greater Seattle area. But I do have a few former colleagues now working on the planning stages of commuter rail projects down in Texas (primarily in the Austin area).

[@TexMexTraveler]

@@ryantelemko2313 Alright, I'm in the Houston area working on the I-45 widening project currently, among other projects. I really struggle to get relevant authorities to plan and accommodate for commuter rail or other transit services and am looking for help :-) Also I do enjoy networking

[@alexconrad2904]

This project seems a lot like how the Tokaido Shinkansen project was for Japan. It was the first high-speed rail line in Japan and was between the two largest cities, but since then the network has expanded throughout the whole country. It went overbudget, but no-one is complaining about that now. In 50 years, hopefully the train will be up to Sacramento, San Diego, Las Vegas, and maybe into AZ, allowing people to travel across the area quickly and efficiently. Edited because I misspelled train

[@wizardmix]

Big sigh @ 50 years. I might as well move to Spain because I won't be alive to see any meaningful HSR in California. What we're hoping for in 50 years is what exists nation wide in China right now. There's also a great system in Spain and, of course, Japan.

[@DOSFS]

@@wizardmix Political situation in China is unique so I didn't think comparing it to the US is fair in this matter, also ironically... China is building high-speed rail too much like US is building highways too much... so big lesson on how not to do in that regard. For now sooner is better than later, best of luck to CHR

[@MaxZomboni]

$200 billion is just insane. It will never be finished. The comparison to the Tokaido Shinkansen is apples and oranges. Before the Shinkansen Japan already had an extensive passenger railway system. The Shinkansen was nothing new, it was just an upgrade. Nobody in Japan has to drive to the station. There are over 800 railway stations just in Tokyo. People just carry their bags a short distance to their local station, catch a train to Tokyo Station and transfer to the Shinkansen to their destination. It's just one continues trip door to door. Its seamless. But car-centric California doesn't have an infrastructure like that and never will. Most people will have to drive to the high speed rail station, so why wouldn't they just continue driving to LA or the Bay Area? It would be better for California to concentrate on expanding the commuter rail systems in LA and the Bay Area first. Once those systems are built out enough, then maybe they could consider connecting the two systems together with high speed rail. But they are doing it all in the wrong order.

[@ressljs]

Japan had a few huge things going for it as far as building high speed rail. Mainly, just about all their major cities can be connected by a single line. Most of their population lives along their Pacific coast, so they don't need a spider web of rail lines. Another thing is all their cities and bigger towns have excellent public transit systems so when you get to the city you want to go to, you know you can get around that city without a car. I'm not saying it can't be done in America, I actually really hope they can figure it out. It's just much more of an up hill battle in our country.

[@wizardmix]

@@DOSFS I wanted to keep my comment relatively short. I had a longer one I left and, to a reasonable degree, I do understand the differences between US and China. I am not a fan of Chinese politics but I am a fan of China's ability to rapidly progress (sometimes not for the better). As you are eluding, there are things China can learn from us and there are things we can learn from China. While in China the state might be able to do as it sees fit with next to no personal freedoms standing in the way and the US has personal property and rights to contend with, you and I likely both know that even with personal property and rights, the US loves its bureaucracy to the Nth degree and politicians over-fund these projects as a way to divert cash elsewhere. We get in our own way better than just about any other nation. If it's not that, it's a deep political divide that almost always ignores common good. As someone who has experienced HSR in Spain and many times in China, just the simple fact that I've understood the convenience drives me to a greater demand for it. I believe demand is the key to getting these projects done faster. I think if more people in the US actually saw/experienced the amazing HSR feat the Chinese pulled off, they'd be livid at how far behind the US has fallen in this regard. We should be mad about it, how expensive it is and how long it's taking.

[@MrFimpster]

Much respect Kyle. Love your take on these kinds of things.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you! I try to bring a different perspective on hot topics.

[@Duncanisanerd]

Hi Kyle, I'm from Visalia too! To answer the train question, It's probably not possible for them to go over the grapevine. the maximum grade for high speed rail is about 4% and the grapevine gets up to 6% in some parts. So unless they want to spend a lot of money to dig and level it out more it's impossible.

[@00crashtest]

"up to 6% in some parts"... Actually, it is 6% for most of the incline with it reaching 6.7% in some parts. So, it is even more than you think. This is why trucks are so slow both up and down (to prevent brake fade) and have their own lane in both directions.

[@SwanShadow]

Excellent and thoughtful analysis, Kyle.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you! I appreciate that.

[@BillKing3456]

Great commentary using a cool map. Oh, by the way, hour and a half (one way) train ride commutes are a thing in the NYC area - like you said, you can read a lot, watch youtube videos, eat breakfast (although New Jersey Transit sez you're not allowed to eat or drink anything - NYMTA is much more lenient, as is Amtrak), and sleep. Sure beats being in traffic. Really an eye opener that the air quality is so bad in the Valley. There are 18-mile long rail tunnels in the Pacific Northwest (U.S. and Canada) - just sayin'. The Chinese are tunneling all over, reportedly.

[@eriklakeland3857]

Speaking of tunneling, the Chuo Shinkansen magnetic levitation train project will be 90% in tunnels for the Tokyo to Nagoya portion.

[@JordanPeace]

Yeah I think Fresno will definitely still benefit from high speed rail since 1.5-2 hours is about as long as people currently drive during peak commute times from Stockton or Modesto or Los Banos. If anything being almost directly halfway between both SF and LA might make it even more desirable for people who spend time in both cities.

[@davidjackson7281]

Bill King there is a 2.6 mile cascade tunnel. Where is there an 18 mile tunnel(s)?

[@Group51]

HS2 in the U.K. has big tunnels too.

[@compdude100]

@@davidjackson7281 the Cascade tunnel is 8 miles long. You must be thinking of the original tunnel that was bypassed by a new longer tunnel in 1929.

[@adamwoo8025]

My favorite video of yours so far! I love hearing a geographical perspective on transit topics. It was also extra enjoyable knowing that you're from the central valley, so the topic is close to home for you.

[@christophejergales7852]

Absolutely, Kyle hit this one out of the park.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you! I do get a little exasperated with the New Yorkers and Texans debating California HSR

[@Yormsane]

One of my favourite ‘big picture’ guys on KZbin. Enjoyed this episode a lot, plenty of thought provoking ideas here - let’s build this thing!

[@soccerdad93446]

When I was in Spain, they had both local and express trains to Barcelona. When I was on the local train, we pulled over for 2 express trains going 200KPH+. During my trip, the local train found speeds of 175KPH so we were moving quickly too.

[@isaacmarmolejo694]

From LA County, ready for HSR in Cali! Sounds like an easy way to create a ton of jobs in different sectors, take planes out of the sky, boost tourism, and revitalize California. This is the next gold rush! Great video as always!🌎👑

[@mostlyguesses8385]

... the greyhound bus is nearly as fast throughout California, and is cheap, yet people want their car upon arrival so few take greyhound..... It's weird to think only 1000 a day take greyhound but 100000 will take train,, same route and just bit slower, yet suddenly people will be fine not having their car upon arrival in LA?.... US cities go out 30 miles, the Europe cities just 10 so usually places are 5 miles from downtown so a long walk or short tram,, , , US has too much lawns, it makes car only way, but we don't ban lawns, we screwed ourselves into cars....

[@isaacmarmolejo694]

Greyhound bus takes 10 hours to get from SF to LA if I’m not mistaken. HSR could take as little as 2 hours. What you said about cars and car centric cities is correct but that doesn’t account for the folks that will enter these cities by plane, folks that are fine not having a car upon arrival. HSR takes planes out of the sky and will be a cheaper alternative to planes but faster than the bus or car.

[@mostlyguesses8385]

@@isaacmarmolejo694 ... Greyhound is 7 hours. Train except for 2 nonstop trips daily will be 3 hours. Greyhound is $45, train will be $100. I still say Greyhound is similar yet most dont want it, you can't even bother to know it's not 10 hours, people want their cars, can you honestly say most FAMILIES will go to LA without their car?? Its just a fact, trains aren't that awesome a way to be in city a week, cars are just awesomer. Everyone who bitches about the Cali drive could take greyhound but they want their car, for week in LA or San Fran, what the F do you do in LA a week without a car as Family???? I mean this with love of trains, cars just add so much more, it's like sayin people will camp in tent on vacation but most people want hotel with heat and pool, the rustic way (train no car for week in LA) ain't what most people want. Peace. """""Mon, Feb 27 Duration: 7:05 hrsDuration: 7:05 hrs 12:05 pm N. Hollywood (Lankershim) FlixBus 2 stops 7:10 pm San Francisco (5th/Townsend"""""""

[@Denalin]

The Central Valley has more people than something like ~40 US states. The idea that the current build is a train to "nowhere" is absurd. This train will fundamentally improve California and help lock in a bright future. BTW as far as I can tell the reason the train doesn't go the more "direct" path is largely a combination of: fewer people and harsher terrain (hills, mountains, sandy soil). Perhaps in the future when train travel is more popular we'll agree to build along the Amtrak corridor. For now, that corridor is windy and hilly, and would not support the strict needs of a high speed line.

[@weirdfish1216]

bakersfield local here! i love how unbiased you were with this video. i’m a HUGE supporter of high speed rail but i agreed with the negative sides of the project you posited because you did so with the necessary nuance. i’m not exactly a train expert either, but i heard that the reason hsr won’t run through the tehachapi pass is because they would have needed something like a 40 mile long tunnel. although this isn’t completely unheard of (see switzerland). i think with the general car-centric and short term thinking that exists in U.S. politics, something like this would have an incredibly hard time passing

[@brandoontwowheels8529]

Kyle, Thank you for your “geography” spin on the HSR issue. Many bloggers have shared their opinions with all too much political overtones inserted, but not yours. The San Joaquin Valley is fortunate to not be neglected here. Residents and hopefully the economy will greatly benefit by reliable access to the big metros. The air quality will benefit too. Last year I attended a city planners retreat where the High Speed Rail Authority shared how the project is really moving forward, and the cities of Fresno and Merced are developing higher density land use plans for properties around the HSR stations. They are excited to read the future benefits. Yes the need for a Visalia-Hanford station may be questionable, but it does serve two counties totaling 600k persons and Sequoia Park. As a Visalia planner, I believe it’s great opportunity for more skilled jobs and being connected with the rest of the state. Yes the price tag has gone up and up, but what government job hasn’t gone over budget?

[@snoopyloopy]

Also, the proposed "Cross Valley Rail" project will really help out.

[@adds.111]

California HSR makes California so much more desirable to move to as somebody going into the biotech industry. Being from STL, the cost of living in the Bay Area is absolutely insane to me. STL is already.a major hub for biotech, but it’s nice knowing that California will be a good backup plan in the future if I can potentially live somewhere more affordable. Great video as always!

[@promontorium]

You will be dead before this is up and running. It's been going for 15 years now, planning began in the 1990s, and it moves 0 people and has not even attempted to get land rights through most of the cities. Your grandchildren will hopefully get to see this project canceled.

[@mostlyguesses8385]

... But few will "trust" the govt to run the train well or always, it may have weeks of repairs, strikes, terrorism. Just saying a train ain't much good if people still think need car, so gotta pay $10000 a year for that. Unlike a person in middle England who does trust train as only way to hop metros.... During covid for 3 months they stopped running my TX commuter bus so wow I could see big difference in feeling one can trust train/bus enough to not have car, now I have a car can't rely on govt for transport.. by the way why not take Greyhound bus, why is train only way you'll not use your car?? Happy winter!

[@AdamSmith-gs2dv]

I can tell you California is not affordable in general. Even the rural areas are way more expensive than Missouri

[@PCSPounder]

This as housing prices have gone down 10% in San Francisco the last year. Not that this makes San Francisco anything but still darn expensive.

[@Labyrinth6000]

It is NOT AFFORDABLE, why are so many flooding out of the state? Afterall, they did lose a representative in the census 3 years ago.

[@chefssaltybawlz]

Honestly the best video I’ve seen on this topic and from a Californian. Cali is always touted as this “amazing economy” by locals who can’t afford housing themselves yet this project is often given too many excuses. Given that most people flying into Vegas do so for the strip, I only see positives for that corridor. The SF route and pricing may be problematic but that’s another discussion lol.

[@wannabetowasabe]

A late friend of mine, who was an aerospace engineer who loved airplanes told me that in the long run air transportation should only be used for trips over 600 miles. Under that threshold should be served by high speed rail. When completed high speed rail will rival the standard San Francisco/San Jose/Oakland aircraft flights. The times will be similar, but the hassles lower. The greater L.A. area has been struggling with the Antelope Valley to west L.A. traffic for decades. Look at how much it is costing to widen the 405 to include high occupancy vehicle lanes. Having rail serve this demand makes a great deal of sense. Just looking down at the 14 from above it in Acton 6-8 a.m. and 5-7 p.m. proves my point. I had a sister and brother in law who owned a home in Acton with a CA 14 view gave me that perspective when I visited. High speed rail in California is an idea that is ahead of its time. Many people can't conceptualize the need right now, which will be well demonstrated when the system is built out. Then people will think, why didn't we do this earlier?

[@meandwhoism]

i agree with you until that last part. A healthier America would've invited the Japanese National Railways to Cali after 1964 to construct some of that HSR

[@davidjackson7281]

@@meandwhoism Natives don't say Cali.

[@lws7394]

I disagree with the latter alinea. CaHSR is an idea BEHIND its time ! It should have been built 25-30 years ago ! 😬 I heard a former aviation engineer now transport professor say this: with an airplane 50% seats occupied and a HS train 50% seats occupied, taking an extra seat in the plane would be 10-11xmore polluting than the train. Because a train can take a lot of bulk weight with little effect on fuel use , whereas every extra kilo in a plane will cost a lot more energy. And that was irrelevant whether with kerosine or e-fuel. (Mass flying electric would be a fata morgana )

[@andrewblair370]

what an unexpectedly exciting video! As a 20 yr old LA native, ive heard so much going this way and that about the HSR that i just forgot about it. Your video really got me thinking (maybe dreaming) about all the possibilities. High speed rail going down the 101 and the 5, hell maybe even one day from San Diego to Seattle! Id love for my kids to have what you described, the ability to see everything this state has to offer without a car.

[@00crashtest]

Don't worry, we'll have it in 60 years if the demand is there. Not having it planned for now doesn't necessarily mean it will never be built. They're not mutually exclusive. Granted, we might not able to live until that is reality, but at least our descendants will get to enjoy it if we have any. Who knows? Maybe the demand on the Central Valley Interstate 9 HSR will be so great that the US decides to build an Interstate HSR network and have it mostly completed in just 25 years, just like how the Interstate Highway System was planned circa 1948, started construction in 1956 and was mostly complete by 1976.

[@PCSPounder]

Can’t tell you how much people in Portland and Seattle really want to see a full North-to-South HSR.

[@bobbyswanson3498]

even if a plane is say 30 minutes faster, i’d still opt for the train. way more leg room and space to move, plenty of bathrooms, cellular connection, station goes right into the city instead of a 30-40 min drive away, no deboarding/boarding wait

[@stephen6899]

I really appreciate your perspective regarding the high speed rail project. A lot of people don't know the reason the path goes the way it does and I feel like your video does a great job of explaining it. People also forget about the benefits it'll bring to people who live between LA and the Bay Area, since those two areas at the ends of the path are the most discussed, and I'm glad you brought that up as well. Excellent video!

[@noahybarra7613]

Love your stuff man. Gonna be on the lookout for the follow-up video talking about the high speed line in TX between DFW and Houston.

[@ItsEverythingElse]

High speed rail LA to Vegas will be huge. Will help road congestion quite a bit too.

[@robertgiles9124]

So people can be robbed at the Casinos faster. Grab a hooker quicker. Its a desert. They have them all over.

[@skylarmcgee6517]

This is why going through Tehachapi will be beneficial in the long run, makes that connection easier

[@parshimers]

even normal speed amtrak would be great. it would be worth it simply to get drunk drivers off I-15, by itself.

[@onetwothreeabc]

@@parshimers Will you ride a train from LA to Las vegas with 8 hours of travel time?

[@TohaBgood2]

@@onetwothreeabc Yeah, probably. Better than driving. If it's cheaper than flying then I'm in. The train needs to be comfortable though and needs to have stops outside of the "middle of nowhere."

[@robertwazniak9495]

I think one thing that the short-sighted people of the San Francisco Area don't see is that the value of the housing in the area will drop. if you can live and commute easily an hour away by train, the competition for housing downtown SFO will reduce and hit their "growth potential" when they dispose of their property.

[@rhobot75]

Thank you! From.. a YIMBY in Belmont, CA, in San Mateo County. 1) I hope it all works out and gets built all the way thru and 2) I would be even happier if it actually went all the way north to at least Humboldt, if not also Crescent City, and also ran thru Chico area and Redding, like, if it really tied the whole state together b/c there are universities up that way and also because the North of the State it is isolated; maybe someday.

[@GeographyKing]

I hope I didn't offend you with my snarky comment on San Mateo County! I know not everyone there is Woodside and Hillsborough.

[@davidjackson7281]

Study a brief history of the Northwestern Pacific Railroad and you'll know anything above Willits is OUT. North of Sacramento could upgrade the track to get better speeds, perhaps up to a maximum of 110 mph in some sections. There won't be enough population to support, anyway.

[@rhobot75]

@@GeographyKing Hi! Not at all offended. (My street and neighborhood is mostly apartment buildings, just to say.) The hugest offenders that we complain about are Palo Alto, Atherton, yes, also Hillsborough. I have to admit, tho, I'm happy to keep the San Mateo county coast free of development, or mostly free. And very recently, a huge chunk of private property, I think a farm or ranch, basically is going to become a public park, which is a victory snatched from the maws of developers. I'd like to see established living centers, like Palo Alto do more infilling (and where there are jobs) than building housing on top of coastline. Plus there are not jobs on the coast itself, very few. And as you probably know the Skyline Mountains cut a formidable barrier and there is little road access. Even now, in Half Moon Bay area, if you can believe it, there is still not a hospital. They would have to be transported up highway 1 thru Pacifica to Daly City or SF, or over dinky little highway 92 to the east side of SMateo county. Zoning is slowly changing, tho. I think a lot of cities like Hillsborough are having to come up with plans to allow construction of duplexes. Anwyay, cheers!

[@nlpnt]

Another reason to go through the Central Valley rather than the coast line, is that there's already a (non-high-speed) coast line and if we've learned anything from pandemic supply chains it's that system redundancy is good for its' own sake.

[@lucaspakele3038]

They are routing through the Tehachapi Pass to make two shorter tunnels with flat desert land in between, rather than one, extremely long, deep tunnel. Tunnels generally need surface access points, so tunneling under shorter mountains is preferable. Plus, Lancaster and Palmdale will become far more viable commuter cities for Los Angeles with their own station.

[@JordanPeace]

9:52 Hopefully putting the HSR station in currently undeveloped land between Hanford and Visalia will spur new urban development near the station, since most of Visalia is suburban sprawl and Hanford is a small enough city that its downtown couldn’t densify as much as Fresno or Bakersfield. Still a weird spot to preemptively build a station without that urban development since like you said, for existing residents of either city Fresno’s station will be a similar driving time away. EDIT: I believe there’s also a plan to connect Hanford and Visalia with a direct train service, which would conveniently follow a rail corridor that passes directly underneath the HSR station right between them

[@brandoontwowheels8529]

Jay, there is a plan to bring passenger rail service along that east-west corridor, called the Cross Valley Corridor. It would go between Huron and Porterville. It is a weird spot but there is actually more land around Hanford to build a station. In Visalia, even if the HSR were aligned slower toward Visalia, the station would need to be west of 99 and probably close to that east-west corridor.

[@snoopyloopy]

Yes and on top of that, it avoids having to tear up the entire downtown of either Hanford or Visalia to build HSR (as is happening to Fresno).

[@vtxshadow]

As a person from the central valley I absolutely loved this video.

[@EyeHike]

I travel from the bay to LA 6-10 times a year. I won’t fly because 1 hour delays mean I could drive faster (think 1 hr to airport, with parking or transit, on both sides, plus the flight, add security and a delay), also cost for family of 4. I will say that 5.5-6 hr drive is only off hours, I leave at 7pm or 4am to get those drive times. Friday or Sunday expect 7-9 hrs. I would love a train option. Born in Visalia, grew up in Porterville and San Luis Obispo. Often took the 9 hr Coast Starlight train from San Diego to SLO in college.

[@edwardw92]

Love a train option +1. I used to drive from L.A. to San Jose frequently (every other month) too for the same reasons. The Tejon Pass stretch on I-5 offers spectacular views when leaving L.A. but it’s a difficult climb, definitely not suitable for train. And I hope I don’t offend anyone by saying that driving through central valley is boring, it’s not easy to stay alert for 3hrs when all you see is agricultural lands on both sides on a long long straight road. If high speed rail is available yes it’ll be my #1 choice.

[@randyhoneycutt8153]

I would be shocked if it ever gets built. With each passing day the costs go up. And with California’s regulatory climate, they might regulate it out of existence before it even gets built. Think “snail darter”.

[@darthmaul216]

This aged poorly

[@gdrriley420]

the last few parts will be environmentally cleared this year. That removes basically all the ways people can try and limit or stop the project outside of limit its funding.

[@larsord9139]

@@gdrriley420 But we still have them dang mountains in the way.

[@onetwothreeabc]

@@gdrriley420 Where will the funding be coming from anyways?

[@gdrriley420]

​@@onetwothreeabc There isn't a funding source outside of securing ~25-30B to get the initial segment open. The state could redirect highway funds towards it or dozens of other ways.

[@firefalcoln]

I think your low tech map was remarkably effective. I think your point about improving air quality in the valley is a good point. A high speed rail also would never have to come to a near standstill or endanger many lives to deal with the seasonal tule fog.

[@daswgn]

Thanks for the video. Consistently some of the most interesting videos on KZbin. And love the use of the “lo-tech”map and hearing you talk about the central valley.

[@maxpowr90]

Highspeed rail service works when it's between two somewhat close cities: usually

[@antonkistrup9519]

One positive aspect of taking a train is that you dont have to worry about traffic. I take a train to school every day, the town it terminates at has huge traffic problems. It might take as much time getting from the edge of town to the centre by car, as getting from my home to the edge of town takes. The train just shooths past all this traffic, and drops me off at the centre. Sooo nice. And no matter how many people decide to take the tran, it will still be on time. No bus service or car could do that. Makes it way easier to plan your commute tightly.

[@promontorium]

Sure you do. There will be traffic in the cities and either this train causes more traffic, or it gets stopped by traffic. They can't and aren't planning to have it elevated or underground through all of metropolises, it will be on city streets, blocking people. Blocking you when you get out. And people will block the line. Suicides will delay the line for hours. Minor maintenance issues 100 miles from civilization will stop the lines dead for a day. BART in the Bay Area has problems all the time that render the entire line inoperative for half a day or sometimes days.

[@Boss-KingInc.]

A well done, informative video. Always great content. Excited for more to come

[@carlmarburger7513]

Fresno born and raised now living in the Bay Area. I was impressed with your knowledge of California, then you said you were from Visalia and that explained it. You nailed this video. However, I would never consider Merced a "destination location". That struck me funny. Good job!

[@BS-vx8dg]

Just saw this pop up, am about to watch it, but am absolutely *excited* to get Kyle's take on this!

[@ryanpfahler9945]

Great video!! I’m an LA native and going to school at UC Davis, the drive is aggravating and flying from Sacramento to Burbank seems so inefficient - a train service would be super helpful for when I travel home.

[@e020443]

So, the portion of the route that is currently under construction goes from so-what to who cares, CA, and even for that pitiful stretch all the land hasn't been acquired. Attaching either end to the real population centres will cost a fortune and require engineering that CA doesn't have and can't afford to buy. The voters of CA were sold a bill of goods more than a decade ago when the problem statement included routes from Sacramento or SF to LA and San Diego. What they're getting for twice the original projected (or more) cost is the aforementioned route from so-what to who cares. Oh boy.

[@danielcarroll3358]

I always like these "train to nowhere" people. The initial route runs through Fresno, which has a larger population than the largest city of a majority of these United States? Bakersfield isn't particularly small either. Bakersfield's population as of the 2020 census was 403,455, making it the 48th-most populous city in the United States of America and the 9th-most populous city in California. Oh well, If you are going to be a pessimist, you are going to be a pessimist. And note that tech centered California is short on engineering too. :)

[@LucidStew]

When voters were being sold on Proposition 1A, the price tag floated at that time was $32 billion. Mid-range estimate is currently $93-94 billion with a high-end estimate of $113 billion. Both of those figures assume inflation based on completion of Phase 1 San Francisco to Anaheim by 2033, which is essentially impossible at this point.

[@scottnelson1713]

I didn't see any mention of the Altamont Corridor Express (ACE Train) from Stockton to San Jose, which has been in operation since 1998. That already works for people who want to live out in Stockton but work in Silicon Valley.

[@lh457725]

Thank you! A great video with your original perspective. You're right! No one is talking about some of the ideas you presented here. I can't wait for California HSR to be in service and I hope it does benefit the Central Valley and contributes to cleaner air!

[@Dubsteppinout]

I’ve always been into maps. Was excited to find your channel. Great to see this different concept video, while still relying heavily on a map. And I’ve done I5 so many times. I did a couple of days work in Chowchilla, and thought that Madera was a hidden little gem (nothing really there, but somehow nice) now it’s becoming developed.

[@Parborway]

High speed trains are even worse at going up slopes than normal trains. In general, high speed trains are physically (if not legally) capable of going on any track that a conventional train can and vice-versa. To get any railway over a mountain would require a ton of switchbacks, and would be very slow, so if any high speeds are desired, a tunnel is necessary.

[@gdrriley420]

No they are better than conventional trains given their extra power and the fact that basically all high speed trains are electric which makes them lighter.

[@Parborway]

@@gdrriley420 Being lighter doesn't help because traction is proportional to weight. Electric trains do have a higher power-to-weight ratio. If you wanted to take a high-speed consist down any non-electrified, though, you would need to attach a diesel locomotive.

[@gdrriley420]

@@Parborway there’s a sweet spot between weight and tractive effort. Yes and? That’s not a normal condition for most sets nor planned in California

[@AL5520]

High speed train max incline is lower not because they are "worse at going up slopes" but because they won't be able to maintain high speeds with increased incline. The same goes for non high speed tracks - they certainly can (if it's the same gauge and electrified with supported standards) and CAHSR will use the Caltrain tracks for the last segment, which is why the undergoing electrification of 25 kV 60 Hz single-phase AC but on that segments the trains will be limited to 110 mi/h (or less, as Caltrain's new EMU's will maintain the 79 mi/h speeds) due to track limitations like alignment, quality, lack of full grade separation etc. This is also how it works in other places as, usually, high speed lines relay on regular tracks to go in and out of cities and to connect between high speed lines when there are gaps (intentional or temporal due to construction or maintenance). In Europe, where different countries might have different electrification and/or signaling systems and even different gauge some EMU's and loco hauled trains will have support for multiple systems and gauges. In any case, trains are faster than cars, as the steel wheels on the steel tracks has less friction but the tradeoff is lower incline ability. for high speed trains tracks must be straight or with very gentle curves, which is why it requires more bridges and tunneling but even regular trains require them, unless you opt for a slower and longer lines or solutions like a spiral loop.

[@oskehcat]

Hey, great video! I've been really excited about this project and it was nice to see a new perspective on it. The part you mentioned about the Surfliner corridor being upgraded for high-speed rail, I've never heard of that before. Anyways, I think you make a lot of good points, and I agree, that map is beautiful.

[@williammueller6639]

Great video. I was born in Livermore and we moved to Manteca in the 80s. Even then people were driving an hour plus each way for work. In Livermore we were able to take BART to San Fran but a High Speed Rail would've been so awesome. I really hope this project works out, for all my family that still lives there.

[@promontorium]

BART has been trying to extend from San Francisco to San Jose since the 1970s. Still not there. Perfect example of how this project will go.

[@KappeyneFam]

I recommend that you look at what the Swiss have done with the Gotthard Base Tunnel. It allows for high speed trains to go under the Alps.

[@jg-7780]

9:43 So from what I understand, CalHSR originally wanted a station closer to downtown Hanford, but there was heavy opposition from anti-HSR voices in the area which pushed the station just outside of town. California's long term rail plans suggests a desire to start up a new normal train service running from Lemoore to Porterville via Hanford, the HSR stop, and Visalia, but I don't know whether there has been any real movement on that since its inclusion in the long term plan.

[@CascadiaAviation]

Cuesta Grade just north of SLO is an absolute beast and was extremely hard to build the railroad over. Involves tons of switchbacks, bridges and tunnels.

[@history_leisure]

People could also use the train to commute to Fresno from those smaller towns with the train too.

[@mattpotter8725]

Great video Kyle!!! I think one thing about the coastal route that you missed however, and probably the main reason, though I'm sure there is also some nimbyism going on, is that land acquisition costs going this way would push the cost up even higher, as well as probably construction costs with more tunnels and bridges needed than going along the Valley, so I think that is the main reason, as well as having to satisfy more people in the state to vote in favour of it. As for HSR I don't think it can handle inclines and had to be relatively straight (to be able to maintain the high speeds needed to make the project worthwhile) so would think so the regions where there are mountain passes for the current infrastructure will need to be tunnels for HSR (you can't have loops to get up hills as with traditional rail).

[@deanjohnson6074]

A couple of observations. Will the average person be able to afford it, especially a family? Will four tickets on the train be cheaper than driving? How do you get around once you get to LA or San Diego? Take an Uber everywhere you go? I love trains and mass transit but I just don't believe most people are going to utilize it. It will be too expensive and not that fast. One reason for the delays and high cost is that every municipality under the sun gets a say in where the train goes. So the design is suboptimal to begin with.

[@jeffs4483]

If it works in Europe and Asia, why not here?

[@gdrriley420]

The pricing is expected to be cheaper then flying right now without the same level of insane price hikes around the busy times because its got so much more capacity. LA and San Diego are both working on expanding their public transit. LA has a rather slow but extensive bus network which should become faster pre 2028 Olympics which is feeding its growing rail network.

[@GeographyKing]

I do agree with the need for light commuter rail in LA to improve the overall usefulness of the project when heading south, but the political nonsense with where the stops are going to be and which city gets what has largely been worked out. Most of the delays now are holdout land holders who know they can get way more for their land than it's worth and the review of the parts of the plan through the passes. As far as people not using it, I don't see too many happy faces at airports in security lines or while boarding. Plus I do think the commuting aspect will be bigger than the leisure and business travel aspect.

[@alquinn8576]

@@jeffs4483 other places have different urban layout that solves the final mile problem in transportation better than in the US

[@Alejandro-vn2si]

Both, LA and the Bay area will have a better public transportation system, especially with BART's future extension to San Jose and its second transbay tube. Also, the regional connector along with the West Santa Ana Brach, the purple line extension, the sepulveda pass subway, or the Gold line (or future Blue [A] line). What I mean with this is that it would be possible to travel from Antioch to Cerritos, Claremont to Dublin, Redwood city to Pico Rivera, or Long beach to Oakland in the upcoming years. HSR will create a revolution for public transportation across the state and not only help help public transit riders, but also car people since we would relieve capacity to existing freeways. So, you will be able to travel to more parts of the state than the actual map of California High Speed Rail.

[@ELMS]

I was in Northern France near the city of Arras. There was so much residential development. When I asked why I was told it was because of the TGV. Paris is only an hour away on the train and even though Arras was 185km (114mi) north of Paris it was effectively becoming a suburb of Paris due to the train. You’re exactly right, Kyle, the same thing with happen to places around San Francisco and LA.

[@daleviker5884]

That may be the biggest whopper I've seen posted in the internet (which is no small feat). I know Arras well, I have been there several times, most recently in 2019 when I even took the train from there to Paris and back one day. Not in a million years is Arras a "suburb of Paris", and in fact the population of Arras has been in steady decline since the 1960s, which is about how long the TGV services have been operating. The people who told you that it was becoming a suburb of Paris are probably still laughing at the gullible American who thought they were serious.

[@gdrriley420]

Passenger rail especially electrified can deal with 3.5-4.5% grades. The 113B is the current worst cost estimate the big thing that will affect the price is how much the 3 tunneled sections are. That being cheaper could bring the project closer to its 77B lowest estimate . The coast line sense the 90s has been studied for upgrades. SLOCOG has all the reports on it. There is old papers from the time and the plan has always been the fastest route would be via the central valley. In short 110-125mph was in discussion which would have cut trip times to 6-7 hours. As fast as driving but not faster than flying. the failure in 92 and 94 of 2 1B bond measures closed the funding plan for the upgraded line. The state only had 3B of the 5B planned by 94 to invest in transit and rail. the big issue for going down the coast is the section South Of Santa Maria to Ventura there just isn't a good way to get rail though there without doing a lot of short tunnels and viaducts or doing a base tunnel below it all.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you! That's the type of info I need to know

[@gdrriley420]

@@GeographyKing happy to help. It’s all quite obscure info

[@pixielucero8950]

Great video! As a frequent train rider, I just hope it’s done in my lifetime 😬

[@darrinkinney2268]

Air pollution in the valley caused by agriculture (and climate), not cars. Yeah, maybe a little, but nothing the train will solve. Loved the comment on Merced. Yeah OMG, I never thought about that.

[@Dog.soldier1950]

Yup those apples and grapes throwing off CO😂

[@darrinkinney2268]

@@Dog.soldier1950 the way the ground is prepped and how crops are cultivated, causes a lot of particulates. The bad air quality is more dust than traditional smog.

[@dwc1964]

By way of background: San Francisco Bay Area native - East Bay til age 10, then South Bay til I grew up & escaped back to the East Bay, Berkeley 5 years Oakland 5 years, and San Francisco the past 30. I'm in an organization that has 3 statewide meetings/year per its bylaws: one in the north, one in the south, and one in the middle. My travel mode has been for the most part by motorcycle, as I don't drive and hate flying. I've been following the CAHSR project since it was first proposed in 1996 because I would _so much_ rather get there that way than any other; and yes, it would also get us all to the mid-state meeting in Fresno as well. I just hope I get to ride it someday. I see so much online hate on the HSR project that regurgitates so many completely ignorant talking points, and it's nice to see some of them gently debunked. One that annoys me no end is *"why not the I-5 corridor?"* and I've got two seemingly contradictory answers to that from my motorcycling experience: *it's too damn boring, and it's too much fun.* The vast majority of the distance is a straight line down the middle of nowhere; I had a serious problem trying not to nod off in the saddle, especially in the summer heat. On a train, that's great though - if you don't care about the millions of people who live on the 99 corridor, which I do and we should. The other part is the bad part - *the Grapevine is a fun ride on a motorcycle* - and anything that's fun to ride on a motorcycle is _ipso facto_ unsuitable for a train, especially HSR. Also taking the eastern route from the Central Valley towards Los Angeles opens up connection opportunities to the oft-mentioned Brightline to Vegas and to the Inland Empire. HSR is only really useful if its stations are fully-functioning local area transit hubs, with metro, trams, buses & everything feeding into & out of them. Some HSR project money is, IIRC, meant to go into that (on top of the Caltrain & Metrolink improvements so the HSR can share the track); but a lot more local money is going to have to go into it as well. Just so people know: the same money spent on rail & mass transit in general carries a lot more people a lot further in a lot narrower a corridor than that money spent on asphalt for cars.

[@wizardmix]

SLO county resident and I don't think there's any NIMBYism here, at least not from me and I'm 0.5 from the railroad tracks. I'll tell you what bothers me: The bureaucratic mess of it all. In 10 years China went from a railroad system about as technologically advanced as India to having the largest high speed rail network in the world. It's insane, something close to 25,000 miles. Now I am not the greatest fan of Chinese politics, I'd much rather live in the US. I fully get that there are several reasons why high speed rail expansion is possible to that level in China and not the US, no argument there BUT I've also experienced that rail system. I think if more people had experienced what I have, the demands would be more serious and maybe this comparatively meager California line would be a 15 year plan instead of this 30 year nonsense. When I was last in China 5 years ago it felt as though I'd gone to 30 years into the future (in terms of high speed rail). When I came back to the US, it felt like I went back in time 50 years when I look at our rail networks. If more people in the US actually experienced the system in China, they would start to really understand the insane convenience of it. When I was there on business I was using it several times each trip, sometimes multiple times a day. I've also traveled on it long distance: from Hong Kong to Shanghai stopping in Xiamen. Imagine every 20 minutes you could get on a train that cruises at 190MPH so smooth that you could balance a coin on its side. You can get to the station 15 minutes before your train arrives. No major security problems, no weather delays, you can purchase a ticket day of if you need to. A coach chair is more comfortable than a domestic first class airline seat. There's food, coffee, wifi and the ground is going by faster than you've ever seen. Now imagine every city in the US were connected this way? Not just major cities but smaller ones too. That's China right now. If more people in the US experienced what I've experienced, they'd be calling their local representatives demanding it. But most of us have never set foot on a high speed train or really seen how clean, convenient and efficient a good mass transit system can be. We have to be dragged kicking and screaming into a better way while our politicians take every opportunity to turn these programs into boondoggles. Again, the bureaucracy of it all is shameful, wasteful and frankly, pathetic. Sometimes we just need to get out of our own way.

[@kevinweber5129]

Of course china is more efficient. It’s because they are a dictatorship.

[@wizardmix]

​@@kevinweber5129 If you read what I wrote, I admitted understanding the differences between the US and China. That said, dictatorships aren't always efficient, not even in China's own history (great leap forward). Also it starts to come off as a bit of an excuse to me. I can point out several moments in US history when we were as progressive as China is but under a democracy. The point is, if more people in the US would experience a functioning high speed rail network and see that a 25,000 mile network IS possible within a fraction of a human lifetime, perhaps we'd have a higher demand for it and start to re-think how long something has to take.

[@blankface_]

Transit has generally helped build the economies of the areas it’s passed through many decades into the future. It’s a long term investment.

[@Turdfergusen382]

Geo King Kyle always bringing it!

[@daveland3183]

Great presentation. Very informative. I wish the initial operating segment would include the cities of palmdale and gilroy and would begin service in time for the 2028 Olympic Games.

[@timokho20]

Its so nice to see an unbiased view on high speed rail for once. I absolutely love trains but so many people especially on youtube pretend that high speed rail is some magic power that should be applied everywhere in the US even though its highly impractical and economically infeasable. Its really refreshing to see someone go into the actual details and show the benefits and the negatives of such a project.

[@AWildBard]

I've taken the Amtrack from Ventura and also from Oxnard to San Francisco or Oakland. Takes about 12 hours, but very nice scenery and relaxing trip. Also took Amtrack from LA to San Diego a few times.

[@kyle1235]

I really appreciate how all your videos about California don't play into the typical media tropes when it comes to the state. And my name is Kyle too!!

[@bartphlegar8212]

Late to the party on this one...My background. Once upon a time I was a locomotive engineer at Amtrak West. I often ran the Metrolink Lancaster Line. I also worked for Caltrans... 🙄...First hand knowledge of how California projects work. The problem with this whole project is that it was contrived by politicians who have no clue about the dynamics of transport. Or even worse, political operatives with engineering degrees...Kyle, you are from Visalia. Tell me the truth. How many people do you think over most of that very red part of the state in the Central and San Joaquin Valleys wanted HSR, or even mass transportation at all?...What SHOULD have happened is instead of trying to please everybody in the state, was to localize the revenue collection area for this project and start it at the bookends: LA to Palm Springs/Indio, and San Jose to Sacramento (the current Capitol Corridor), making Sacrarmento a hub for a valley line later. Yes, you can build over the Grapevine. You'd need to have $120 ticket prices just to maintain it. The Metrolink routing, Palmdale to LA, is over Acton Grade. My max train speed over Soledad and Acton was 40 mph, with 30 mph curve packages. You would either have to: 1) supergrade the entire Soledad Canyon with viaducts to keep the speed up, or; 2) blow the holy hell out of the canyon to straighten the right-of-way. Are you really going to try to tell me that you're going to blow up Melanie Griffith's ranch for a train project? (BTW, she's not the only celebrity in the canyon.) The EIS will get deep-sixed if they even try to keep it at grade...The ticket prices are already projected to be too high for a Bay Area - Fresno/Modesto commuter. Besides, the tunnels that you pointed out coming out of San Jose at Pacheco is one of the most active fault regions in the state - way worse than the Metro Red Line in LA...The dogleg from LA to Riverside, then to San Diego is another function of geography. It is all they can do along the shoreline to keep the Pacific Coastliner and Coaster running thorugh Solana Beach, Del Mar, and that oceanfront gap, with no hope of speed improvement. Rails already run RivCo to Murrieta, but leaving Temecula you're gonna have grade problems again at Rainbow, all the way into Escondido...Hey, I am as big of a railfan as the next guy, but this fustercluck has given a pair of black eyes to HSR in general. The Brightlines in Florida, Texas, and Victorville-Vegas will have to reprove the whole concept since CA effed it up so bad...

[@michaeljones7927]

Pardon my ignorance, I didn't understand what you were referring to when you made reference to LA to Palm Springs/Indio. What does that route have to do with CAHSR? Excellent comments. UTTER REALISM.

[@bcoleman532]

Plans for upgrades stop at SLO because that's the northern terminus of the LOSSAN corridor, on which the Surfliner runs. While the Coast Starlight extends further, it's a low frequency long-distance Amtraik train while the Surfliner is a state-supported route with a total of 11 trains a day (4 going all the way to SLO), when operating normally. The big issues with this route however are that significant portions of it hug the coast in areas with significant coastal erosion (which is why it's at reduced capacity now), and it's single-tracked in many places. In addition, what track exists in many places is wholly unsuitable for HSR, so even though it exists, you're still looking at expensive construction to effectively completely rebuild the line.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you for that info

[@davidjackson7281]

I think the coastal route could be upgraded to a Brightline train trip averaging 80 mph for a five hour trip to LA.

[@bcoleman532]

@@davidjackson7281 The Coast Starlight currently takes about 12 hours to go from LA to Oakland along a route of over 400 miles. It is physically impossible for an 80 Mph train, which the Coast Starlight is, to travel that path in 5 hours. That's not to say that the travel time can't be improved - it certainly can, as there's many sections of track that could be straightened, and likely areas where double tracking could be implemented to prevent trains from needing to wait, but 5 hours is an impossible goal with the existing right of way. There isn't much magic to what Brightline has been doing in Florida - their current service has been built to use existing right of ways that are flat and straight, which is completely different than what exists in California, and the new tracks they're building also do not have their path dictated by terrain.

[@davidjackson7281]

@@bcoleman532 Yes, the topography is a lot different. The operative word is upgrade. Put in extra track. Straighten out track. Build tunnels and viaducts. From San Jose to Paso Robles is pretty flat. Same for sections between SLO and Santa Barbara. Some in the south would need tunnels and rerouting. I would think spending 10-20 bil over 10-15 years would be a good upgrade. Cresta Grade tunnel being the toughest part. But that's one tunnel area versus the CAHSR three longer tunnels sections. They could reduce the time by 15-30 minutes a year and get it down to six hours anyway. Just a thought. I would be for both projects. I think there is merit in fast speed service to whet the appetite before high speed.

[@bcoleman532]

@@davidjackson7281 The route needs far more than 10-20 billion though to hit the time target you proposed. It's 5 hours alone right now to go from LA to SLO, and improving that time will take upgrading tracks running through expensive urban areas. Getting the time down will basically require building HSR segments to bypass existing sections of track in order to make up for the urban sections that can't be upgraded. It's not a bad idea, but it's not something that could be done cheaply, and doing it as a project before CAHSR is built will siphon money away from that project, further delaying it.

[@jariemonah]

I think Americans who have never ridden trains can't comprehend the amount of comfort in riding them. They don't get as affected by weather like planes, so less delays. You can walk around freely in train cars. You don't have to do so many checkpoints or security measures for luggage or belongings. Plus, you're on the ground, not the air. Just so much better.

[@funchable212]

Hell yeah Kyle let’s BUILD THAT TRAIN!!

[@SeanMCannon]

Im currently living in San Jose and the thought of catching a high speed train to LA is appealing. That being said, I never even considered how convenient it would make living in the cheaper parts of the state. Very interesting….

[@georgekarnezis4311]

Wow that map was the perfect tool to explain this. Yeah trains work really great when you can make stops along the line and bring the value of connectivity people along the route. I really like that day trip to Yosemite idea.

[@promontorium]

Which is precisely the problem. More stops = slower train. More stops = more passengers. More passengers = slower train. Slow train =/= HSR. Slow train doesn't beat flights. Slow train won't get people going from L.A. to S.F. No L.A. to S.F., train line pointless.

[@georgekarnezis4311]

@@promontorium trains don’t compete against flights. They compete against driving. You can also choose to offer express trains.

[@renaes2807]

The station by Hanford is to be served by a bus line from Visalia which will hopefully turn into a local train line on the SJVR right of way between Hanford/ Visalia and beyond.

[@chengliu872]

The bus from Merced to Yosemite already exists. Also, as someone who used to live in Poughkeepsie, NY, plenty of people are willing to endure a 1½ hour commute.

[@bunnyThor]

Something that people forget about the CHSR plan is that it was never *just* about getting people from SF to LA. One thing that was mentioned is the economic development of the valley, but don't forget that that development also has to do with (1) providing lots of skilled well-paying jobs to people in the middle of the state and (2) building up a corps of domestic HSR professionals who can work on other US HSR projects once everyone starts to see the benefits that California enjoys. Also, even though the train doesn't currently "go anywhere", it has already improved things for communities up and down the route due to infrastructure improvements to many of the roadways that may have been on the back burner for the last few decades.

[@geraldmeehan8942]

I am in my 60's but I would like to see this project and more like it completed here in U.S.

[@hawkname1234]

Dude I am so HYPED about high speed rail, though I MIGHT see only a little bit of it working by the time I retire and/or die.

[@richardf7223]

I work in building high speed rail. It’s a tough project, but a great idea.

[@ramonalfaro3252]

5 steps forward 1 step back is a perfect analog.!

[@AshmewStudios]

Something to note is that the station being in the "middle of nowhere" means that there's lots of space to build some transit oriented development. And also, they could build tunnels to get it through the Grapevine but it will probably be more expensive. Great video though!

[@jasonreed7522]

As an engineer, basically anything is possible if you are willing to pay for it. Likely even if it is possible to get through the grapevine (either over or under) it would be so ridiculously expensive that the Palmdale route is much more economically viable even with the time cost of going "the long way".

[@davidjackson7281]

@@jasonreed7522 That route has a lot of tunnelling. Not only 10 miles through the Tehachapi Mountains but then its 30 more miles of tunnels through the San Gabriels. That's where this project may come to a screeching halt. I think some tunnels could take up to a billion bucks and a year to build per each mile. The Pacheco Pass tunnels will be a big test.

[@jonathanstensberg]

The chosen route is the largely correct route. It connects more people and avoids most super long and super expensive trans-mountain tunnels. The plan to build the cheap and easy section through the valley first is also the correct decision. The problem is the phasing after that. They should just keep building the cheap and easy parts up to Sacramento first, and only then do the expensive and challenging work of connecting to LA first, creating one long line, and only then finishing the Y-shape with the connection to San Francisco. The objective should be to build as much of the continuous cheap sections first to maximize utility while the difficult parts take longer to build.

[@00crashtest]

Agreed! Also, connecting to LA first before SF first would also allow Brightline West bullet trains to run into LA sooner by using the CaHSR tracks from Palmdale to LA Union.

[@jonathanstensberg]

@@00crashtest Yes, connecting with the Brightline West sooner, and bringing both services into downtown LA sooner, is a significant added benefit of ordering the phases in this way. The primary motivator, though, is having major destinations on both ends of the line as soon as possible.

[@michaeljones7927]

Excellent proposal.

[@jerzycal]

The routing through the Central valley parallells existing rail lines for most of the route. It is probably easier to pass environmental restrictions by using a pre existing rail corridor. I believe the section of the route between Palmdale and the LA Basin is going to require 6 new tunnels.

[@davidjackson7281]

The preferred and eventual chosen 39 mile alignment from Palmdale will have 28 miles of tunnels and 2 miles of cut and fill undergrounders. There will be four tunnels. 13, 12, 2, and 1mile in length. Think how long this will take to build and what the cost will be. It boggles my mind.

[@diegodesouza5382]

To answer your question about steepness on trains: trains can’t go up slopes of more than about 3.5%. It’s not physically possible without a rack or some other assisting device simply because there isn’t enough friction in between the metal wheels and rails for it to climb up any steeper than that. Even a 3% grade is already really steep and wouldn’t be able to be performed by a freight or diesel train, but electrified trains can do it.

[@VidClips858]

14:56 Kyle: "Why not just go down the coast?" California Coastal Commission: 🤣

[@kms1.62]

This is a very sensible and well done video. Bravo!

[@mattcolver1]

It's hard to beat flying. Especially if you fly out of a smaller airport. You can be through security in 15 minutes at Long Beach fly round trip to San Francisco for $150. It's a 45 minute flight.

[@alquinn8576]

yeah and the 2:40 target travel time for HSR is not without controversy (potentially fudged numbers to comply with the funding requirements, but actual HSR may struggle to achieve 3hrs)

[@danielcarroll3358]

But you don't actually fly to San Francisco. You fly to SFO. Then it is 40 minutes on BART or rent a car.

[@alquinn8576]

@@danielcarroll3358 yeah but if your destination is Oakland, flying is better for final-mile. it depends on exactly where you are going

[@mattcolver1]

@@danielcarroll3358 I doubt the high speed rail train station will drop you off at Alioto's on the wharf. It'll probably be further out than SFO.

[@mattcolver1]

@@alquinn8576 Another great quick flight from SoCal to bay area is from John Wayne in OC to Oakland. I've taken that flight and it's quick and easy. One time there was just me and one other passenger on that flight.

[@ProfessorPancakes420]

Great video! I believe the reason for not using existing trackage along the coast (owned by Union Pacific and where Amtrak's routes currently run) is because it's too bendy and not capable of supporting higher speeds. Similarly, Amtrak's Acela "high-speed" train in the Northease Corridor has to slow down to 55 mph going through bendy coastal tracks in Connecticut between NYC and Boston. I think laying down new, straighter tracks through the valley would be much easier/cheaper rather than trying to retrofit existing tracks owned by a class I freight railroad in Union Pacific in terrain in which it is difficult to operate in the first place.

[@marcusnavarra8356]

Thanks for providing a very balanced overview of the project. One correction: The segment going over the Pacheco pass has completed environmental review. Also, the original plan for the Hanford-Visalia station was to put it in Hanford, but Hanford actually requested that the station not be located in Hanford itself. As for the Grapevine controversy, it's pretty complicated. The CAHSRA studied an alignment through the grapevine that would be pretty good, but it would require going through an extremely wealthy neighborhood, and I think the CAHSRA didn't want to deal with that. They studied other alignments that didn't go through the NIMBY nest, but none of them were satisfactory, to the aughority. Another reason is that the previously mentioned line to Vegas would be able to connect much more easily into Los Angeles with the Tehachapi route. This decision is mired in controversy and accusations of corruption, and I don't know if the accusations are true or not, but I think that choosing the Tehachapi route gives a lot of benefits for only lengthening the trip by 15 minutes. While I don't know for sure, I think they studied a more direct route that didn't hit the central valley, and the cost and travel time estimates weren't substantially better. With that in mind, it made more sense to serve more people by going through the valley. One thing we can all agree on: Fuck NIMBYs. The bay needs to build more housing, and I hope the valley doesn't just become a bay area suburb.

[@promontorium]

That's your takeaway? Fuck NIMBYs? They didn't go other ways because building a rail line through HUNDREDS OF MILES OF MOUNTAINS WOULD BE INSANE. The valley is the only flat route through California. You seem pleasantly delusional. You think it's difficult navigating one rich neighborhood in a pass, how about trying to fight for every square foot of land through every major city? You people all kick the can down the road like it'll solve itself, we just need to build the line to the city limit and the problem will solve itself right? This isn't just about NIMBY. More like, in people's backyard, and straight through their house! Straight through their business! It will be impossible to build this without destroying hundreds if not thousands of standing houses and businesses, and you just think people are being selfish! I agree more housing is needed. More housing was needed 15 years ago. But the same insane California regulations that prevent anyone from building, are happening every inch of line they try to build. Which is why neither is happening.

[@marcusnavarra8356]

@@promontorium People won't use transit if it isn't where people are. Nobody thought this far ahead when planning their cities, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't build good transit, even at the cost of displacing people. We live in a world where climate change threatens our entire species. It is a nice thought that we should not step on any toes while fighting it, but a lot more is at stake than a few hundred people's houses and businesses. I'm not trying to say that CAHSR will solve climate change, but it, and projects like it, are going to play an important role in reducing our emissions. As for the Grapevine vs. Tehachapi argument, I don't know why exactly the authority chose the path they did, but I wanted to present the info that I knew and draw some conclusions from it. It was wrong of me to imply that I knew with certainty why the Tehachapi route was chosen. I completely agree that sane housing and building policy was needed decades ago, but that is no reason to not do anything today.

[@Orangechaglad_47]

I’ve been waiting for this one! Great dissection of cal HSR!

[@blank6521]

As a traffic engineer, I love anything that removes cars of the roads and has effective public transit

[@henryc1000]

Unfortunately, this ain’t it

[@enigmawyoming5201]

As a civil engineer, I prefer efficiency and economical common sense. I’ll say we have different opinions on this particular project. You prolly live in a city in a high rise… I do not.

[@darthmaul216]

@@henryc1000 and that’s where you are wrong

[@blank6521]

@@enigmawyoming5201 I ignored the cost but think compared to what I have heard about cali highways this train would be good but then it would have to be managed correctly after it is built which is the problem with a lot of these government projects

[@henryc1000]

@@darthmaul216 : and how much is this behemoth over budget?

[@tomtaber1102]

Not many people live along Hwy 101 between LA and the Bay Area. The Central Valley has a lot more people and room to grow. I live in San Mateo County, which is now building lots of housing because of state mandates. Most of San Mateo County consists of water and mountains. The part of the county that is flat enough to develop has already been developed. High density is what is now being built.

[@btomimatsucunard]

I believe CAHSR plans on running a variety of services since the stations are built with passing loops, so that whoever ends up operating the system can run Expresses, Limiteds, and Locals along the entire route. A service plan which is fairly unheard of today in the state since almost every Amtrak route makes all stops with maybe a once daily Long Distance train running a kind of Limited service over portions of a route

[@MauricioYouTube]

Also, Amtrak uses freight lines on the majority of their routes and getting them onboard to create longer side-outs, passing loops etc that benefit for passenger trains is like pulling teeth.

[@ronclark9724]

Mountains for high speed rail are usually dug under as a base tunnel, from valley to valley with just a little bit of climbing and descending. Like from Gilroy to Madeira for CHSR. But unlike Bakersfield and Burbank to the to the high desert (Apple Valley) with more than 2000 feet of elevation change. These two tunnel segments will have huge grades, which trains will have little difficulty managing - although not at very high speeds. Actually, the speed restrictions are larger on the down grade sections as the trains will be using dynamic brakes to keep their speed under control. Semi trucks slow down going up because of lack of horsepower, but they do not coast going down, and are as slow going down as up. HSR trains will have the horsepower going uphill, but will still need to use their brakes going downhill - hence slower speeds. CHSR is around $8 Billion short finishing the original operating segment Bakersfield to Merced. The state could provide another $3 Billion from the general fund to finish to Bakersfield or Merced, but I do not see them finishing to both cities with likely additional state funding. I do not see them finishing Phase 1, LA to SF by 2050. They would need around $15 Billion to fund each of the three tunnel segments now, in the future more due to inflation. Finding another $45-50 Billion to finish Phase 1 is more than twice what they needed to finish this first operating segment. No additional money means no trains. I have no idea where California will ever find that money needed short of a 30-40 cent per gallon gas tax increase.

[@michaeljones7927]

You're being utterly realistic about the financing.

[@eatattheafter]

Kyle is so cool. Love this stuff.

[@GeographyKing]

Thank you!

[@aidanthompson9159]

First, I love the low-tech pointing to the map approach. It’s actually much easier to understand what’s happening that way. Second, I’m getting one of those maps!!