The Cheap Chinese Carbon Bike that Backfired

[@CamNicholls]

I hope everyone is well out there. I wanted to make this video, in particular, for those people out there considering these cheaper alternative road bikes. The intention of this project was never to land where we have, but I truly believe it's an invaluable learning experience for me and many others out there. I would really encourage you to watch until the very end to appreciate the full picture. Cheers, Cam

[@marknolen7878]

Rule 101 bike suppliers - check the bike before you send it out for review. Cam, great content showing the bike build and what's required in terms of grease and tolerances. Would love to see Trilogy Cycles do a similar build with commentary on a BMC bike. - EDIT II see you have already done this!

[@701garage]

You should look at Trifox bikes

[@hippoace]

Sorry for nitpicking, but do you mean intention in the video desc?

[@CamNicholls]

@@hippoace Yes, thank you. Running at a million miles here. Fixed.

[@jasonlimbh79]

I'm currently using the same Kootu carbon wheelset. Yes, the free hub did bouncing a bit. As the shop told me, these 'cheap' hub are like this, it cannot be fix unless we change it.

[@albertosanchez6994]

I have the same model savadeck colorado. I bought it from amazon. Over 800 miles so far. Only tape bar no good quality. Very stable and firm when you speed over 30 mph. Great deal for the price. Hydraulic brakes. So far not regret at all. 28mm tires 50mm carbon fiber rings. 105 group set. This is a quarter price of $ 9000 brands bike.

[@Matt28NJ]

Man, I wish I had this fella as my mechanic. He's thorough.

[@michaelbrownlee9497]

Yeah, he knows his bikes. I was tempted to buy a second hand mechanics bike that was a mish mash of scavenged parts.

[@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589]

Completely showpony workshop.White worktops? Give me a break. No mess, not a bike under $2K has ever been in that stand. Real bike shops service everything, not just the hobbyhorses of the dilettante rich.

[@Matt28NJ]

@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 whew! Edgy response there bro. Save some of that for the rest of us.

[@michaelbrownlee9497]

Its not that pricey considering the amount of engineering that goes into them and having someone experienced with all the correct tools, settings, lubricants is worth it.

[@mattpatt]

@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 agreed, seen plenty of mechanics stomp up and down on their high horse about only having park tools etc. It's easy to dance around and complain. Sure enough, as you slide down the pricing scale you find build problems, hardly rocket brain stuff. Frankly, it's far more interesting to find those problems on more expensive bikes which are heralded as the beez neez.

[@randorecumbent]

Yes, thank you for this. When I'm asked about "affordable" bikes and unknown brands, this is the kind of thing that I usually think of and tell people not to waste their time with. That you've done the leg work so that others can learn from your experience is very valuable. Honestly in an age where we have inexpensive and automated machine tools, this should never happen on something as simple as a bicycle. It actually makes me angry that we have supply issues and there are people wasting resources by creating unusable parts and slapping them on substandard products that look good in pictures but are good for nothing else. The planet can't sustain this kind of waste. Manufacturers need to be more responsible. Make it fit for purpose or don't make it at all.

[@marcalvarez4890]

"people wasting resources by creating unusable parts... The planet can't sustain this kind of waste." This. My new carbon mountain bike from a good brand will last me a minimum of 15 years. Thats 15 years, minimum, probably more like a quarter century when i hand it to my child as a "family bike" This is what sustainable production looks like.

[@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589]

CF layup and finishing is pretty much universally hand work, done by badly paid workers, usually women, except in shiny factories in Europe. The time the workers have available to complete each component is rigorously monitored, and the 'slow' work rate penalties are as bad as Amazon's. Added to the fact that CF dust is proving to be as bad as asbestos, and the resin fumes cause brain damage over long periods of exposure, with the poor work practices in all except the most modern and high-end factories.. So, like the C18th Bourbon court, with their painstakingly embroidered magnificence and grandeur, your expensive hobby is sending poor people to early, painful graves. Think about that. Let alone the waste generated by the unrecyclable CF rejects and crashes.

[@Bikey_McBeardface]

@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 A lot of those "shiny factories in Europe" owned by the big names are only doing the finishing work when the carbon is already resin impregnated and far less dangerous, only assembling their top of the line range or small operations just for show, the dirty work is done away from prying eyes in (insert poor country with terrible/zero heath and safety standards), so its not just the unbranded/open mould companies that are causing this issue either. GCN did a Euro carbon frame factory visit a few years back, and the company (cant remember now but it was big ish name) where in the comments answering questions, when a few assholes like me started asking and saying awkward things, like: Where did those parts come from you are gluing together? That's a very small factory for the number of bikes you produce, where are the rest made? They deleted the comment people where asking questions on, and a few weeks later GCN quietly "cleaned up" the whole comments section. But to be fair I bet you could trace most of the raw elements that go into Steel and Alu bikes to mines and smelting plants in those same poor countries that have equally poor conditions.

[@albertosanchez6994]

Ok Rando , go spend $10000 instead.

[@williammorris6097]

this is NOTthe norm on Chinese made carbon. So don't portray it as you have vast knowledge of Chinese carbon frame failure. Having lived in northern Thailand for almost 9 years and seen many many Chinese non-branded carbon frames perform flawlessly in many mountain bike races and rides, and hvaing mine also perform perfectly for over 50 races and nearly 7 years now, I KNOW Chinese carbon frames are not junk nor are they inferior to brans name frames. You just got a bad frame from perhaps a bad company, but there are scores of Chinese manufacturers that make great carbon no brand name frames.

[@williammorris4419]

I lived in Thailand for over 8 years.. I bought a Chinese carbon hardtail frame which I built up with help from Storywheel cycles in Chiang Rai and raced quite often ( 46+ races) and trained on, averaging over 300 km a week for 5+ years. It never failed in any respect. My Thai competitors also used many different Chinese made frames and I only once ever saw a Chinese frame that rode poorly, and that was back in 2015. I rode several of the national XC events in Thailand on it for three years, each time finishing on the podium. I have since come back to the USA and built up a Lightcarbon LC911 model FS MTB frame and raced it successfully both in Colorado, podiuming in my age group 3 out of 4 races, and back in Thailand the past two winter in my age group class, with 5 wins, one 2nd, and two 3rds, and one 4th out of 10 races. Completely love it, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone who rides seriously. I'm currently working on building up a Chinese carbon 606 or FM0286 frame for gravel racing. I expect the same satisfaction from either of those frames.

[@chrisnaden]

I own a Sava bike as well. I'm new to biking and bought a Sava herd 6.0. For me, my bike rides fine. I went to the bike shop and all that needed to be done was that the wheels needed to be trued and the gear needed to be tuned. The bike cost $1400 US, which is about $1900 dollars in Australia. I didn't have any issues with my bike. Thanks for sharing this video.

[@CamNicholls]

Thanks for sharing on the thread Chris

[@smartorder4997]

I have a few chinese carbon cheap bike too, I weight 220lb and didn't have a problem with it. Of cause I am not a pro biker but I think that most people are. My point of view is that, not everyone has the money to spend on an expensive brand frame. So the bike is totally acceptable for the money, look at Trace Velo he also has a cheap chinese carbon frame and have no issue.

[@puzzlespillet]

i bought one as my first bike to, but under a different brand. local cheap bike brand slap their logo on it and sell as their "top models". i have changed the wheels out for a couple of dt swiss, and from one day to the other i was 2 kmh faster. otherwise i have been fairly happy with the bike. it´s 3 years old now, i think i will ride it this next summer, and then replaced it for a new "normal" brand bike. maybe a trek domane or a giant envy

[@FPChris]

I agree not everyone has $5k for a bike but that doesn’t excuse not greasing main components. That’s shit pride and craftsmanship.

[@the.communist]

@@FPChris u think western brands products made in china has much pride?😂🤣😂😂

[@WillPower46]

Hey Cam, I have owned 3 bike shops and sold thousands of bikes. I have seen several of the big brands carbon frame's with imperfections and terrible finishing. FYI.

[@the.communist]

This video is bollocks, trying to put people off buying aliexpress.

[@っとおいずぅ]

これら全ての意見からsavaは買わない方がいいと言うことですか？

[@BodieMoto]

yeah this channel is pretty awful, I don't understand how they continue to release such badly thought out content and succeeding lol they basically just pander to dentists. This bike even in this state would be perfectly ridable for years without issue. The rotor would literally heat up and bend itself to align with the wobble of the hub. Sure a wobbly hub sucks but 99.99% of people would never ever even notice. I would almost promise you that if this guy took all his bikes and tested their hubs at least 1 of them would be the same

[@prestachuck2867]

And the shop brands always replace them very quickly if there is a problem. You get what you pay for.

[@ChinaCycling]

Fair dinkum with the honesty Cam. The only thing I wanna stress is never judge a bike / company by the country it comes from. (In the same way you should never judge a person based on their skin colour, gender, etc.) Every country has a mix of good stuff and absolute crap. Thanks to people like Cam for trying to help separate the trash from the treasure.

[@anyonecanbicycle4438]

💯

[@jackhammer40k_]

@China Cycling I understand that you have an interest in defending Chinese production. The problem is the lack of respect for international IP laws and regulations. There's no way for the end user to be sure that ALL the components are of the claimed origin (in terms of which company) when one buys a complete bike. I think this may well be illustrated with the Novatec hubs in this case. I admit I'm speculating. Normally Novatec are a well respected brand and it seems shocking to me and pretty unlikely that they would let these particular hubs leave the factory to go onto someone's bike - counterfeit? This runs into safety concerns for the end user which could be catastrophic in terms of injury or death.

[@kpizzle1985]

Yep, I've had the same issues with a well respected British brand. Warrantied frame for shocking BB finishing and warrantied the replacement for terrible flat mount facing. I turned down a 3rd frameset and opted for a refund. Wasted a year of my life on that frameset trying to fix faults that the bike shop said didn't exist.

[@kiatography22]

I think this video is very fairly done and at no point did the presenter make any judgement based on stereotypes. If the fact points to the bike being a poorly made one, then it is a poorly made one. We cannot expect to see moving parts being bone dry and axle being misaligned and yet have the presenter say "This is a fantastic bike". It just doesnt work that way.

[@engnelsito]

I understand Chinese brands who try making quality products must feel really frustrated with the overall perception of low quality on Chinese products, but China can only blame itself and its complete lack of respect to international law, IP protection and quality standards enforcement for this. Most people will buy a mainstream brand made in China product without thinking twice, since the brand will ensure IP protection and QC are ensured (at least at a minimum standard) to be sold internationally. Saying that every country has a mix of good stuff and absolute crap is not entirely accurate, as the laws in most countries wouldn't allow products with standards as low as some of the made in China products to be produced and sold. I am pretty confident that a factory producing counterfeit frames with well known brands logos on them would be promptly shut down by German authorities, while they seem to be allowed to sell and advertise their products from China without consequences.

[@sds1605]

The best cycling KZbin channel there is. Keep up the good work mate!!

[@jontylewis7301]

Built a roadie with carbon frame and wheels from Chinese supplier, also came with the cheap novatech hubs. back hub I could skip the pawls over the ratchets with my hands, supplier sent a new one, exact same problem, ended up biting the bullet and buying a dt swiss 350, threw it on and no problems thus far. No major issues with the frame (yet), a few annoyances like the brake hose hole for internal routing on the headtube was more or less perpendicular to the frame and needed some sanding at an angle to accommodate the hose, brake caliper mounting surfaces not faced etc etc

[@joselynagoncillo8744]

After 1 month, I watched this video again. I think, based on my riding experience - buying bikes and parts included - cheap bikes become cheap because of compromise. Manufacturers and bike builders do not put the best parts in one bike. It would be unsellable. It becomes too expensive that only the ones who really need it will be able to buy. The compromise comes in selecting the parts that will be installed into the bike. For parts that could easily be replaced, they put the least expensive. Hubs, for example, are the easy to replace. Just select the hub in a bike shop, return after 2 hours, and the wheelsets are good to go. Frames are sold in so many shapes and forms. The compromise comes when a cheap frame is used instead of a relatively flawless frame. The bike is then fitted with a very expensive groupset to raise the prize a bit and make it attractive. The bike then becomes a bit expensive but affordable. A buyer will disregard the flaws of the frame, hub, saddle, bars, cables, as long as the rd, fd, cogs, shifters and levers are relatively expensive. In the buyers mind, I can 'upgrade' my bike by changing this and that SLOWLY, because that is how I could afford it budgetwise. For those who are RICH, and can afford to spend money right away on expensive bikes, who's stopping them. But for the not so rich but love biking, the compromise bike is the way to go. From where I am right now, one of the bikers' obsessions is UPGRADE. They save, trade, barter, scavenge for whatever upgrades they could do to their bikes.

[@mann_idonotreadreplies]

cool story bro

[@williamko4751]

Wrong. Think marketing budget.

[@skg8268]

The UT scan on the front fork appeared to show near surface viods/porosity and so no back wall signal was evident. This can be down to 2 reasons. 1) this type of part needs a very skilled laminator, to be able to manufacture a quality part. 2) the tooling required to lay up the carbon fibre for this part will be very expensive, even for China. If you have neither of the above time after time a substandard part will be produced. I learnt about carbon fibre in the aircraft industry over the last 30 years and finished my career as the Non-destructive Test team lead working on the Eurofighter Typhoon and F35 aircraft.

[@naimas8120]

In summary, you wouldn't recommend cheap made carbon fiber bikes especially coming from unknown companies in China. Your advice as an expert in carbon fibre industry.

[@brickcity9mm896]

Yes the Ut scan was but wait until you see the results for the pap smear test.🤟🤪🤙

[@qq_qq_qq]

it's just not fair to compare quality standard of an 100 million++ usd product with cheap bicycle's :)

[@mann_idonotreadreplies]

cool story bro

[@lesreed1635]

There is always a risk when buying on the internet, some will be good and some not so ( as showcased in this video ). Maybe just by paying a little more and using a local bike shop you get local service and a place to return to if problems occur. Sometimes dealing with local service is the best. I also agree with China Cycling comments it’s not the country but the manufacturer who is at fault. As the old saying goes buyer beware. Thanks for the video. Support your local bike shop. Remember profit is not a dirty word business needs this to survive and offer the service you need.

[@williamko4751]

I own a Kootu, a brand under Sava, for three years. Put 3K miles on it. Not a single problem.

[@aquicktake]

At least they sent you one straight off the shelf (as in what a consumer that ordered one would get). A lot of these companies, that are looking for a review, ship out their finest to the reviewer with everything gone over with a fine tooth comb, hand assembled and tight tolerances etc.

[@ploughmyfield]

This is Awesome. I like this article better than the high end stuff. It shows the potential problems of buying a new bike. So much experience in the guys you’ve gone to to look at the bike. They are the real hero’s here. Wow, it will be interesting to see what the follow up to this will be.

[@gearsandsprockets2820]

Awesome and transparent video. Though this could be just a fluke by Sava to have messed up, but just goes to show, that simple things like greasing of bearings, applying the correct paste/grease goes a long way. Definetely, more care and pride could have been given throughout the build process so that the customer gets a good experience. The hub on the other hand is just poor QC on Novatech's part.

[@whazzat8015]

This many issues is not a fluke. It's a decision.

[@Alastair510]

Excellent video. The 'dry bearings' thing on new bikes; that is pretty common. I've had that with multiple hubs (shimano hubs) on several different bikes (from good brands, they just stuck mass factory-built wheels in them). I've also had a shimano BB fail in about 1000miles of riding; again, on a new bike. So the lesson is, always strip down and check things like bearings.

[@durianriders]

Lets not forget that the most hyped up bike in 2021 is the S-Works SL7 and it also had the worst recall drama Ive ever observed. Every time I ride mine I avoid the man hole covers and hold on tight. It is also made in China.

[@malaysiadentist4637]

Well said Durian!

[@blade1994111able]

The bulk of bicycles are produced in China nowadays. I had the great fortune of working for a German cycling brand for over 3 years which saw me spending 9 months in China at the factories overseeing production and quality control. The amount of brands being produced there, mainly from open molds will astound you. A lot of the brands then have the bikes shipped around the world in pieces and then slap on an "Assembled in EU" sticker because that allows them to bypass the whole "Made in China" sticker. With that being said, a lot of the Chinese factories are top notch and super credible. Their production processes are proper and they take pride in their work. Sometimes a mistake gets through but they are quick to action a replacement plan. Nowadays with Covid which caused material shortages and shipping delays, it has made those processes worsen and a lot of retailers left red faced when an angry customer comes in screaming at you and there are literally nothing you can do.

[@asamedic]

Os preços das bicicletas de carbono são abusivos

[@scotth3354]

@@blade1994111able just stop with the rational comments. @Durianrider says the SL7 is crap, and it’s made in China, so therefore all Chinese-made bikes are crap. It’s settled science.

[@blade1994111able]

@@scotth3354 does that mean that all chinese drivetrains are also crap? Better throw Microshift, Sunrace, Sram and Shimano out then :D

[@dangamble6915]

I bought a Polygon MTB (Siskiu T8) and the post sale customer service was really pretty good. They worked hard to replace a missing wheel spacer which I lost through carelessness and despite post-COVID supply chain issues they sorted it out at no cost to me. I would definitely consider a Polygon road bike when it’s time to upgrade my Specialized S-Works SL4. The Ultegra A8X looks like the sweet spot.

[@TC-hl1ws]

Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention.

[@Conversational]

Aaron's quick assessments are so interesting, seems so experienced and knowledgeable

[@craigpavia8943]

I’m not sure why this bike wasn’t considered for at least testing…I’m sure it was fully rideable. I have seen many with voids and excess resin placed. The cost of these frame/fork combos is sometimes a tenth of mainstream brands. I’d certainly skip a “complete build” but I would do that with any major brand as well. Cam notes that the wheels are the issue…as if the base “Rovals, Bontranger and Alex” wheel sets that come as OEM won’t find the closet hours after the bikes are brought home. Poor review overall. I’d also add that the mechanic seems annoyed at this build…I’ve built mainstream brands with poor lubrication from factory. In this case they did NOTHING so the shop would need to step in and do the task.

[@manilamartin1001]

I agree. Looks like a chip on their shoulder. I buy lots of bike parts on aliexpress and most of the time I feel I get a great deal. No hate to the no name brands. They are way cheaper and usually perform ok. They just don't have as much of a polished look usually.

[@BS16Tech]

No chip... Bike was supplied to me to build as came from box and was asked to inform honestly what I saw in detail. Bike was Unrideable as the front wheel would not even rotate from hub flange / binding rotor / terrible caliper mount position on fork. Suggested to change wheelset at least and modify caliper but needed to be assessed as a client would receive if he/she was to build at home. Therefore terrible quality and unrideable in this instance. Cheers

[@Itsuser_1234]

@@BS16Techsure lmao you are a professional liar.

[@glenngundermann2433]

I can't help but think that a lesser expensive model of a brand name bike might fail the scrutiny of these experts also. Unless you spend big bucks, I don't think all bikes are so perfect.

[@ynotnilknarf39]

I've had my ex conti pro team KTM frameset for 7 years (bought new from the team sponsors), it's heavier than the higher end stuff for sure but it's a really solid bike, tolerances in the BB which is threaded, headtube, seatpost and frame alignment are bang on the money. Is it the ultimate racer, nope, but for most non competition riders it's more than enough, and indeed was used by the KTM team, others have lots of good things to say about them. In all honesty I think it's a bit of a lottery for most brands incl the bigger names, as you say though, the likes of LOOK, TIME and some other lesser known brands that ]] make in house = more likely to get the best quality.

[@thephotoyak]

Sometimes the high end models have issues too!

[@williammorris6097]

Glenn,not really because the Chinese labor that makes carbon frames value their job probably moreover than most minimum wage Americans and they have sacrificed to hold on to that job. I lived in Thailamd for more than 8 years and saw and rode many carbon no name frames that held up as well was any more expensive brand. I own one myself that has been in almost 50 xc mtb races in the past 7 years and was ridden by myself for about 300 kilometers every week for more than 5 years of that time. It's been crashed many times and never cracked or failed in any way. There are a few carbon no name frames that aren't much good but standards in design have improved in the past 5 to 6 years so I have no hesitation in purchasing Chinese carbon frame

[@levbobrov1398]

@@thephotoyak "sometimes"? Well, then I've been incredibly unlucky, I guess. I had two "Big name" bikes: Specialized Diverge and Argon 18 E-119. Both had plenty of issues. Some of them serious, like cracked seatpost on Diverge.

[@yisraels4555]

Here is my take.... Carbon bikes are extremely labor intensive, and even in China labor is not free, or even super cheap anymore. At the same time in the biking world, we have idolized carbon frame bikes to the point that every amateur rider thinks they need a top of the line carbon aero frame and that it is going to make them ride as fast as the pros. So between these to trends there will be someone will cut out every cost to make the cheapest possible bike.. and basically have just created the department store version of a carbon racing bike. Probably won't cause to many serious accidents since the ride will be so crappy that these bikes will be dumped in the back of the garage. Even fairly advanced bicycling consumers would be better served by a good aluminum frame, with decent components, but this is not what the cycling press writes about... Because no one has ever gotten excited about a bike with Sora level components, even though a good frame with that level of components would be faster than 99% of all riders.

[@ohwell2790]

Right on the money. Unridable for him does not mean that it would not be for someone else. For me a carbon bike would be a waste of money for the few pounds saved. And, there are high quality less expensive bikes coming out of China that do not cost 9k and now days cycling has become a elitist sport and even in the clothing people wear. I ride a cheap sub $ 400 hard tail trail bike and am totally satisfied with it as it meets my needs not some traveling advertisement. Making payments on a bicycle is just crazy, just to be is some in crowd .Well, ride on and have fun.

[@durianriders]

ZERO pros want to ride those heavy AF aero disc junk. They all prefer the 6.8kg fast whips of yester year. I talk with so many WT riders and mechanics off record. They hate these new bikes. Look at my power data tests. The aero disc bikes are the slowest bikes in 25 years lol.

[@scampa1408]

for what some people are spending on carbon bikes, they'd be better off with a custom/semi custom alu or steel frame. the pro's today don't have any say in what they ride, unlike how it was back in the day, when they rode steel and had their favorite builder make their frames and put whatever team sponser stickers on it. but as usual, the industry is pushed thru the pro peloton and some riders feel that's the way they need to go. utter bullshit

[@richardloh8260]

@@ohwell2790 No bike is worth 9k 🤣

[@Bikey_McBeardface]

@@durianriders But Harley, the baby faced, never was, never could of been guy over at the Global Capitalism Network who can do science and shit, says Aero carbon disc is the best.

[@grintalcycles8266]

Even if it is not the best video for that bike company, it is very valuable. It shows them what should be expected of them and where they are falling short.

[@haksaw123]

The temptation to by an affordable bike that looks the busssiness is so tempting 🤔 but I am thankful that you made us aware of the potential pitfalls that are not obvious

[@mattk8810]

Look man. I work in sales and sell product all day. The Chinese do not care about quality control.

[@racerx8410712]

That's bullshit. If they totally didn't care they wouldn't be in business. I've bought tons of Chinese bike stuff. I have two full Charbon bikes and have beat them both like a red headed step child (not sure where that comes from but). Flawless exemplary performers.

[@iddra1868]

@@racerx8410712Did you just buy them from aliexpress?

[@racerx8410712]

@@iddra1868 My fat and parts I get from ebay. My mtb I bought used and I am the third owner. Also there are companies like Lamierre and Borealis that buy chinese carbon frames in bulk and put their brand on them (sticker on the downtube). I did hear once that one of those brands got a batch of frames that were a bit too flexy in the rear so they contacted the maker sent them back and got better ones. It's not uncommon even on a personal level to work with a factory to make sure you get what you want.

[@hooben...5211]

Contrary to popular belief, the main promotion of carbon fiber frames is the ride quality. Less brutal on tough roads, yes. Lighter bikes are now available in aluminum. This shows how important the major bike manufacturers are. Your local bike shop is still and always will be the way to go. My carbon road bike is 12 years old and still looks new. Thanks for the video!

[@Tetters100]

I am wondering if the issue with the Novatec hubs is that they were ones that didnt pass Q&A but still made it out to the market place. I suspect this is bigger issue than we realise and could be far more prevalent.

[@jamesmedina2062]

what is QC / QA?? The factory in question has no idea what you are talking about!

[@TheGeoEngineer]

Yeah novatech are usually better than this.

[@kosztaz87]

I think the more plausible explanation is that they are simply fake. I have come across plenty of fake stuff (mainly Shimano Alivio derailleurs, as I was in the market for those) on Aliexpress and on eBay. I think you can even find some videos here on KZbin comparing genuine and fake derailleurs.

[@whitebeardcycles]

This is exactly why when I decided to take the leap of cyclist to cycle company owner/importer I spent over a year researching brands checking that they met international standards (ISO) and that they did in house testing, quality control, and that they also had independent testing done like TUV or SGS. I would never sell anything to a customer that I wasn't 100% sure of myself. Yoeleo is one such brand that has that info readily available on their site for all to see, including video's of tests, certifications and UCI approvals.

[@larkhill2119]

Tests are done on the sample and mean nothing assuming they refer to the correct tests and are not Photoshop test certificates. Wait till the borders open and be there when the container is loaded, We even have people sit in the truck until it arrives at customs.

[@tonttumies1]

When you say that the bike was unrideable, did you actually ride the bike? If you use a lot of effort to look for inperfections in anything you will find _something_. The question is whether those findings affect you in practise.

[@Muzzledoctor]

Nowt wrong with KMC chains. Not sure why you'd want to change that immediately.

[@craigcarter9513]

From myself and other team riders at my local club, we rate the KMC chains higher than the Shimano equivalent. They appear to be stronger. There have been reports if snapping and distortion in Shimano chains lately in my local cycling scene.

[@11-inch]

because the bike mechanic is a snob clown

[@gweflj]

They don’t shift like Shimano. More clunky. That said, SRAM chains piss on Shimano.

[@Bikey_McBeardface]

I will happily switch to a KMC when their is a few thousand k's on the cassette but I've found them to be very clunky if you run them on a new cassette. From a quality point of view they are great.

[@yomommascookies9394]

KMC is trash. Korean Made Chain.

[@manmenboy]

I love the conclusion $1500+ bike is unrideable 😂😂😂. As a consumer it would be useful to understand how it compares to other bikes in it's price range. I don't think anyone's looking at this bike is in the market for a $4000+ bike. So comparing it to such isn't really revelant.

[@the.communist]

Its all advertisement to put off aliexpress bikes.

[@davethedrummer5294]

right now im using sava herd 6.0 with full 105 gs and ive been using it for a months and i dont see an issue on my bike and i ride it everyday and get properly maintainance in bike shop every week... and one thing sava is a german brand and manufactured in china and compared to other carbon bikes here in the philippines sava is one of the best budget friendly WHOLE bike that is trustable and got no issue here in the philippines specially on cracks compared to other cheap carbon bike, and one pro team here in the philippines are using sava bike to participate in RONDA which is a big competition race here in our country.. THANKS cam! more cheap carbon bikes to review!

[@cup_and_cone]

Whoa, that hub is crazy! Since Joytech/Novatec OEM's for so many other brands, I'm surprised it's that bad. It's even worse that someone built the wheel and didn't notice/care to replace it.

[@NeoPayneHK]

it could be a "fake" / "no pass" hub but they just want to use it anyway because its cheaper?

[@truthseeker8483]

The up and down movement isnt so important but the sideways movement could have been improved with some shims behind the rotor attachment points.

[@NeoPayneHK]

@@truthseeker8483 but the failure you can see it by your eye I would not ride it anyway

[@cup_and_cone]

@@NeoPayneHK Doubt it's fake, looks like a D981SB-12. There has to be a fixturing change between milling the outer hub shell and boring the internal bearing seats, so somewhere between it wasn't properly centered leading to whacked concentricity. Worst case scenario they had a bad jig and made a whole bad batch of these, best case scenario this one part just slipped out of the workholding.

[@jackhammer40k_]

@@cup_and_cone No reason for it NOT to be a counterfeit. China has no IP protection. No reason for another company with less strict QC to come out with the "same" product with the same branding.

[@jareds917]

Had one of these for years and had no issues...

[@NurImanIzamOthman]

For an entry level price with decent specs, I’m still happy with my Volck (Sava Rebranded) Carbon bike having ridden it over past 2 months. I agree to check torque settings as mine also came with wrong or loose settings. Thanks for identifying the BB issue which I’m gonna check if mine is greased properly or not. I’ll definitely consider more branded bikes once I’m sure I’m deep into cycling.

[@mapk4655]

get a yoeleo. They are well made (tested by Hambini) and are very affordable.

[@pennetierphilippe8529]

@@mapk4655 i will buy a r11 frameset soon. Made by Miracle bikes company. Already bought a fm 296 ( t1000 ) from them in 2016 ( sold ), good quality, zero default.

[@danfuerthgillis4483]

Own 2 Sava's, also have some of my own builds since then and they really put the bike together for casual weekend riding. Both Sava road bikes were all redone by me before they were ridden and many areas which in my opinion are critical for less noise and smooth movements are over looked. Both Sava's have thousands of kilometers on them, they are rim brake based frames with easy to access cables these bikes will go for many more years and I ride all my bikes hard so smooth and noise free is how I have them. My 2 other bike builds are both Rim brake and I simply would not trade them since all the bikes I have seen have excessive noise.

[@xrstopherpopp120]

I bought the Sava folding 20" bike, I've had it for three years, lives aboard my sailboat, and I love it! I'm watching it closely for stress cracks etc but thus far it's fine. It came fully built and was done very well. However, when it comes to my everyday bike, I'd never replace my Cannondale carbon, but I had to pay real money for that. I don't think it is fair to expect high quality carbon bikes, basically you are asking for high quality slave labour. I dunno, it's a hot topic. Great share, thanks!

[@modelocitizen2288]

Greetings from the USA. I don't ride road bikes but I appreciate content like this bring these issues up. I feel as though if someone's buying a bike in this affordability range (ie cheap) they probably won't have A) the back up spare components to replace a wheel with parts bin components and B) wouldn't necessarily have the money to go buy other stuff you'd need to make it a safe, long term rideable option.

[@st-5ter932]

Not sure about this bike I own a sava with like 7k miles on it The only thing a had replaced was the bottom bracket few rear spokes tires tubes I ride this bike like if it’s made out of steal no issues with mine

[@h.rutten2187]

Unless your riding in the tour the France or at the Olympics you don’t need a carbon race bike, just get a steel or aluminum race bike frame, you’re not gonna break any sort of record anyway on your carbon bike.

[@CMgraffix]

Nice share, good to see a good bike mechanic, sharing his knowledge, gives, some bike shops give some bad experiences due to their lack of knowledge, good to see them at work

[@JaySeanOchia]

I've been riding lot of years of my TT bike custom built of my Chinese carbon frame, fork and wheels., I have no complaints about it, everything is working very perfectly smooth. I also tried the drop test my tt bike lot of times. I can say it's very strong carbon frame wheels and fork for the price..

[@framedman]

This is good you did this. I think you can tell from the lack of dislikes that people appreciate this. It would have been too easy to ignore it, give it an average review and hide the faults for a free bike, so glad you were honest with us. Not that I'd expect anything else from you as a long term viewer.

[@rider2731]

Google does not show dislikes anymore.

[@reginaldscot165]

SAVA are popular here in SE Asia, total junk but they look the part and they are cheap. Some people don’t know or just don’t care about the quality. Funny thing is… I have seen all of those problems on top end bikes like Scott and Giant and Specialized… especially the dry BBs and the messed up headsets.

[@dcv9460]

THANK YOU for the "REAL" and very honest review. This will help people who are thinking of buying cheap bikes

[@nick37781]

I have already built 4 fully Chinese carbon bikes with 0 issues. These guy should of just bought straight from aliexpress

[@jvaraneta]

Not all expensive bikes are perfect. One top end brand got recalled for steerer issues.

[@VIEultimate]

@@jvaraneta And one issued a stop ride notice and recalls for failing handlebars. One major component manufacturer also has problems with their mid-high-end cranksets failing [catastrophically in some cases] after a relatively short time. So, yeah, budget does not equal quality.

[@80erinm]

Cheers Cam. As someone thats relatively new to road cycling and looking to buy a new bike in the next year, its good to see an honest look of a cheap bike thats accessible to Aussies. I dont have the knowledge or expert advice available to you but this solidifies the view that getting good advice from my LBS is going to be worth it when it comes time to spend my hard earned.

[@mrnobody9821]

Trek offer lifetime warranty on their bikes, if it helps.

[@Fudders]

Thanks for the info Cam. Maybe those "Biopace" front axle holes are a special safety feature to slow you down and prevent you braking effectively enough to over-stress the flaky carbon lay-up in the fork 😄

[@derrickmurray3782]

Hey Arron.. Good to see you pop up on here

[@jeffshannon5410]

I really wish he would have completed the prep work out of the box and gave it a good writing test before he sent it back

[@KeithHeinrich]

Its entirely possible to have a safe budget setup, it seems that on this occasion it didn't work out that way. Its good information, thanks for taking time to put it together.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Your Mate durian rider would love that bike.. He would tell the world its the best bike ever made.. You should've sent it to him.. send me the shipping bill

[@TheChrizzldizzl]

🤣🤣 best comment ever!! So true

[@furyl1_neverz91]

At least it would be better than the SL7

[@angela-onesroman8873]

What's good Harry, how's the shop, haven't been there much since I've moved... Yeah the Durian loves to hate on specialized and big up lesser brands for personal reasons imo, interesting dude...

[@JR-wj9bh]

Nah. Winspace and trifox are the only two brands he recommends at least for now, which are good bikes.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@angela-onesroman8873 What's up! Yeah everything is good! Hope you guys are enjoying the holiday's! You are right about Durian.

[@yoeleobike6174]

Hi, This is a very informative video. My knowledge was very limited regarding carbon fiber as it pertains to bicycles, Doing these types of vlogs is very much appreciated. I would definitely love to see more.

[@djjjjjjj887]

Looking the part is one thing, being the part is another. Great video Cam! (Fingers crossed the supplier can work with the manufacturer to resolve/find another manufacturer)

[@MrRay645]

some great deals going direct from China but would never recommend to anyone that cant do all the work themselves and already has the tools and knows enough to find the replacement parts they may need at good prices (new old stock or shop takeoffs....) as it can get just as expensive as buying a shop brand fast. I have built one complete bike a friend bought and built 4 direct frames... feel like buying the frame/fork only is the safer bet and choose one thats fairly well known or at least has some history posted online, a few forums have sections dedicated to direct from china "brands" super helpful with these as specs can change without sales literature/info being updated. My China Carbonda CRF696 gravel bike is the best and most used bike I have ever owned, have had it a couple years and just got back a few months ago from a south NJ to Pittsburgh PA and back ride (did cheat with some public transpo from just outside DC to the C&O trail head)

[@davependragon1]

These videos are so biased against the Chinese brands, without telling you that nearly all Carbon Bikes are made in China and Taiwan. Not everyone has 6-10k for a bike which is indistinguishable from a 1-2k bike. All you wanted to do with this bike was find faults and you found them. Put any Carbon frame to this much scrutiny and you will find faults, I don't care who makes it.

[@lynskeyti9940]

China can't build anything that is even par above garbage. I've taken wheel bearings off of cars with 200000 miles that were better than the garbage from China and their bikes are no different. These corporations are whores that will spread their legs for a nickle.. You want a real bike find a usa made steel, titanium or aluminum made frame and build accordingly. They are usa made carbon frames that are made here as well. I paid 1000 for a lynskey ti frame that I picked up in Tennessee where it was made, spent another 1000-1200 on wheels and Japanese made ultegra to go on it and I have a bike that is fast as you can ride it and will out last these garbage frames by decades.

[@magicknight8412]

I had my one and only cheap chinese carbon bike product experience some years back. Got some 60mm chinese carbon wheels for a cheap price and they seemed fine. then a friend tried them and showed me how flexy they were. few months down the line went over a small bump in the road and got a puncture. The rim had a chunk missing which sliced into the tyre! binned them instantly and never again.

[@salsalawyer]

I really appreciate your being honest and objective. It's nice to see content that is more than an informercial for products. You showed the risks of buying cheap. It's not a Chinese brand issue. It's that some can't or don't care enough to produce a good enough product with QA at the given price point. Meanwhile others can. Buyer beware, as always.

[@pinarellolimoncello]

Caveat Emptor! if you want to know the legal term for it, well done though, good comment.

[@shwndh]

This is the problem. The consumer nor can some of the bike shops do this level of carbon examination on bike frames. There are big name brands that have the same quality issues or worse. You’re paying more and trusting that these big companies like Gian, Specialized, Trek, etc ensure that the final product is high quality. But that doesn’t always happen. A warranty is great but it’s better when you never needed it in the first place. Excellent inspection work on this video. I hope this equipment to examine carbon fiber becomes more affordable and available to bike shops and to knowledgeable consumers. If they’re going to charge more for this super material, they’re needs to be a way check that quality is there

[@topher.m]

At least they aren’t charging $15k for a dodgy steerer alla Specialized.

[@escamunicha4276]

or Canyon (van der poel handlebars)

[@Bikey_McBeardface]

@@escamunicha4276 Or Colnargo. Are they still making people glue in an aluminium tube with a star nut shoved in the end rather than an expander, so you don't snap the steerer at the head set? LOL

[@spacepodi]

Doesn’t matter if you end up faceplanting.

[@cycling8189]

Great video! We need good review videos like this of Chinese bike and parts to know what’s legitimate and safe and what’s not. Keep up the good work!

[@JimbobB1978]

All bikes are Chinese.

[@simonjagassar]

Great video. Great mechanic. He should be working on a pro team!

[@CamNicholls]

Yes, he's very thorough.

[@jeremysweeten2792]

No joke! Just had a friend’s Chinese carbon fork fail too! Headtube snapped at the stem. Catastrophic. No accident. Only got a few months out of it. Fortunately, he survived the failure!! Don’t do it, man!!

[@Silidons91]

I have 2k miles on my Sava, I haven't had any issues with it. It's a bit heavier than most carbon frames though. I have the Herd 6.0 with full Shimano 105. My headset was also dry as a rock.

[@constantinonavarroiii2760]

I was gifted a Sava Gravel Bike R 11 six months ago. Still running fine today.

[@gersonFls7]

That could very well be a 7000± s-works tarmac u know...

[@CamNicholls]

Hopefully you didn't pull out of the video at the fork inspection. There were actually seven issues all up, one which made the bike unridable. I have never bought a Specialized (and I have purchased five in the past, during my corporate days) that could not be ridden.

[@koli154]

Well im using that bike for a year now and it just works fine. I dont know if they are just a bit over reacting about that ultrasound. But safety first always.

[@carlosutherland5614]

Why wouldn’t you do these tests for the main stream bikes? A fair comparison yes?

[@CamNicholls]

Yes it's a fair call. To be honest I never intended taking the bike to Carbon Steed. It was only a visual that prompted the journey. I have never seen a fork that quality before and I was a little concerned to be riding on it. Turns out, it was the front wheel that made the bike unridable.

[@escamunicha4276]

@@CamNicholls better cover up the branding and have them do a blind test to avoid any bias

[@aedsy]

Great honest video. I wish all bike reviews were this honest.

[@JustAnotherHo]

I'm always routing for the underdog when it comes to cheap stuff. Everyone wants decent equipment at cheap prices, but standards have to met, especially if we are talking safety.

[@junbeomlee4116]

rooting*

[@pranavharikrishnan9840]

Yep. My decathlon B-Twin bike (cheap, entry level) is really great. Plus I get a lifetime warranty on the frame, stem and handlebars.

[@Bikey_McBeardface]

Not surprised at the bad carbon, seen that many times (and not always on cheap "china" carbon either). But I'm kind of shocked by the Novatech hubs, I have always found them to be really quite good, you have to pull the caps off and clean the bearing face every month or so because they don't seal very well but I trust (or trusted) them to the point that I would actively look for them over some bigger brand budget hubs and even recommend them to people on a budget. Makes me wonder if manufacturing is getting a bit sloppy over there in order to keep up with demand with the whole parts shortage?

[@emmanuelmartin4712]

I run all my bikes with Shimano drivetrain and KMC chains…never had any issue and they last longer than Shimanos…

[@mdbourne]

Yeah, i have no clue what the mechanic was talking about. Makes me question everything else he said. In my personal experience a new Giant and new Canyon both came from the factory with a KMC chain and Shimano components. Think he either isnt very experienced, or.. honestly thats the only thing i can think of.

[@High_Octane]

specialized specs KMC on $3000 bikes soo......

[@gweflj]

Because they’re cheap. They don’t shift under load as well.

[@High_Octane]

@@gweflj they don't do something that your not supposed to do as well??

[@gweflj]

@@High_Octane On the MTB you haven't always got the option.

[@petesmitt]

9:25 'concentricity issues'.. this mechanic has vocabulary I've never heard in a bike shop before.

[@malaysiadentist4637]

I am riding an ALCOTT/SAVA , had it for a year, 6000 km on the clock. Superb ride. Absolutely nothing has gone wrong. None of the sbove issues. To be fair, I reckon you should get the importer to say a few word. There are plenty of rubbish bikes , made by other asian/European bike makers.... saying its a " china" bike and lumping them together hints a little bit of xenophobia on your part Cam. I think you should be specifically targetting Sava alone and not say its a " cheap china bike" per say. Just my two cents mate

[@santannamv]

Absolutely.

[@stevekemp7674]

Couldn't agree more, thank you.

[@JohnAdams-mu7xd]

Xenophobia??? Really dude, why is EVERYTHING about race🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ I can't stand this new generation of color hyperfocused people.... Sooo cringe.

[@XavierHS89]

The honesty if your videos is very much appreciated, thanks for the great content! 👍👍

[@uberamd]

What a timely video, I have this exact bike on my home repair stand. Was indexing the gears and getting it ready to ride while I wait for the seatpost wedge to arrive that was missing - thus I’m unable to ride it. This has me reconsidering keeping it. The one thing I will say, this brand has a rotating stock of 2nd hand bikes in the US, customer returns that are like new, for about $1000-1200 off. This means that you can get a carbon bike, entry level carbon wheels, with full a full ultegra R8000 group set for $1500. But you must thoroughly inspect it and if there is anything questionable: return it if it’s not cost effective to replace. One of my bikes is their Phantom 3.0 (ultegra, bought like-new, $1500), and 500 miles in it’s been solid. I’m ultra-paranoid about the frame so I’ve checked it over every 100 miles, and so far no creaks, cracks, or trouble. 2 year warranty on the frame too. If it does exhibit issues I’m planning on just move the group set over to a different frame. Anyway, thanks for the good content! Always good to see the pros and cons of these Chinese bikes, especially relevant for hobbiest riders. When I compare these bikes to other brands and what they offer for the $1000-1500 price, they are compelling as long as you know the downside risk.

[@gabriel.trainer]

You just earned my respect and subscription for being transparent.

[@albertosanchez6994]

Cam Nicholls you can not compare this bike to a $10000 bike. Not all good quality bike over $10000 will last well. As you seen how many good quality bike (pro) fail in the first 5000 miles? 99.9 of viewers dont have enough money to buy a good quality bike. So this is a good bike for amateur or avid person. Looks like you want to put down this brand for the price your forgot mentioned.

[@alanscyclingadventures4945]

Another great video. I’ll definitely be sharing this with a couple of people I know, and maybe I’ll be able to spare them some heartache and get them to stick with established brands. Thanks again!

[@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589]

Often, the only difference between these bikes and the name brand ones we pay 100+% more for is QC. These bikes come off a similar production line, sometimes in the same factory, as bikes with brand names on. The large Chinese and Taiwanese bike companies that are subcontractors to the American brands are always building to a price, and the price usually reflects the amount of labour time they have available to properly bond a component, or calibrate the lathe that is turning the hubshells to 'tolerance'. The lesser tolerance ones get put in a different box, with a different label on, and sent to companies that build the wheels from them, for lesser $. I've built over 100 wheels with Novatec hubs, and never encountered an issue like the one shown, which probably means I get the non-OEM versions that have their dimensions and tolerances checked a lot more carefully before shipping. I suspect the forgings and the general quality are the same.

[@user-ys6hl1uy1t]

What happened in the video, i was to busy admiring that Look wheel bag?

[@pom355]

Nice huh 👍

[@RichardMigneron]

Great video again ! That proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that I will never buy a bike anywhere else than from a bike shop ! At least, you can bring it back and they work on it or replace parts under warranty etc ! Imagine getting this in the mail, just assembling it without greasing it and going on a ride !

[@gersonFls7]

Who ever does that? I bought a used road bike and grease it up all the way again

[@timtaylor9590]

i had a custom forged carbon / kevlar frame set made, zero voids here and while its not the lightest it is virtually bullet proof

[@tonysantoro8802]

Wow Cam thanks for your honesty and putting it out there. This will help people on all sides of the transaction you would think. The distributor needs to get a better supplier or let the supplier know to up there game. Supplier need to reassess what there putting out as its junk. Your channel has now gone up in my estimation although you didn't get to sell the bike to make some $ your credibility has been enhanced only good for the channel.

[@jheyzbondmoto-klista6856]

We here in the Philippines would just probably say "CARBON LODI"! and wouldn't care about those stuff! On the other hand, thank you for sharing this wonderful video! It just shows that not all carbon bikes are created equal! Don't settle for cheap stuff! I will stick with my aluminum mtb since I can't afford a carbon one anyway! Cheers!

[@viralfire]

In what I can see from the scan images there is absolutely nothing wrong with that fork. That chap saying the cable guide hole is not round..lol, it's not supposed to be round but elongated in a downward orientation to help the brake hose stay flush to the inner-leg. I wonder if he can make a better fork.

[@genetheiss4239]

I own a Sava carbon frame bike with 4000 miles on it so far. Have trued the carbon wheels and replaced the bottom bracket. Paid $1800.00 --bought it new, (Ultegra 8000 groupset) my bike has rim brakes Have seen other videos (Hambini) where bikes are "trashed" for one thing or another. But I like my Sava and would buy another one..

[@a.m.9282]

Buy the bike. Get get the groupset and other useful components. In the place I am living, it's still cheaper than buying them individually!

[@serinagaleong3781]

I ride a Sava Bicycle for about 1 year now... btw ride almost 3-4 time a week...so far thank god no issues with the bike

[@040501912]

Thanks for posting the video out! In my own curiosity, I checked on their pricing. They are definitely on the cheaper side compared to main stream brand with the same group set level but not by a significant margin! As the other commentators were saying, a Second hand market probably the better option if you are only able to buy a bike at that price range.

[@byrondixon4648]

Not by a significant margin - I agree!

[@SWatchik]

Honestly there's so many good used bikes out there from people who go out buy the high end stuff and then get bored or injured and just want some kind of return

[@red2lucas]

Love a bit of up and down movement in the flange.

[@durianriders]

I had to swap some brakes over on a CAAD4 the other day to make it Australian spec. Took me all of 7 minutes AND it was enjoyable because it just works. On a hydro disc aero bike like this you are talking up to 2 hours lol.

[@HuskyKyurem]

BEEN WAITING FOR A SAVA REVIEW!

[@CamNicholls]

The review wont happen unfortunately.

[@icemanlol119]

Couple days ago I purchased a cheap car for $2000 and boy was I pissed when I found out it wasn’t a Lamborghini and now I’m going to make a video about being conned.

[@BigBrownMonke]

Way to go! Supporting different local bike shops, not just sticking to one.

[@gtranquilla]

I have seen a cyclist lying in a ditch with the front wheel and fork separated from the frame. That could potentially result in a broken back or broken neck or even death. Sloppy work on that critical part IMHO.

[@bananosipedist]

Like S-Works Tarmac SL7?

[@rudygarza6410]

When your bike snaps in half and your going 40 down hill

[@JimbobB1978]

I think you`ll find if you scrutinise any bike as your mechanic has done you`ll find problems. All bikes no matter what the price point will have faults. It`s just that most people without that knowledge will be oblivious. And lets not forget that all frames are Chinese so to state "cheap Chinese frame" is a little unfair. I can mention two very high end western badged Chinese frames that are absolute garbage... SL7, SuperSix.

[@4466ssss4]

About the supersix, are you referring to the fork design or the whole frame? "Absolute" garbage seems a bit strong here. I don't want this bike as it's too heavy but I read a lot of happy people riding it.

[@cooperrun199]

Great job again. The front hub was a big surprise!