CAMOUFLAGE - MTP or DPM?

British Forces Cammo, changed from the Disruptive Pattern Material, (DPM), to Multi Terrain Pattern, (MTP). What are the differences and which do you think works better?

[@trooperwolfie]

We took our royal marine and sea cadets out into the field for an exercise where there is woodland, streams, grass and brambles etc. the marine cadets wear MTP, but the sea cadets had to cover their blue uniforms with the old DPM kit we had in stores. I've got to say, the sea cadets in DPM were much harder to see/find in the woodland than the marine cadets in MTP who stood out like a sore thumb. I'd say MTP is good for desert/savannah environments, but DPM is far better for woodland/rural areas.

[@zaynevanday142]

I rest my case your Honour 😂😂😂

[@meme4one]

Mtp is meant cover more environments. Afghanistan for example goes from sand to rock to greenary in 10m.

[@trooperwolfie]

@@meme4one like I said, it's better for desert and savannah type terrain 👍🏻

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Agreed 👍

[@zaynevanday142]

@@meme4one MTP is meant for Ken Dolls 😂

[@chucky2316]

I like dpm personally but i guess its what we know and grow up with

[@MikeJ-c72]

I didn't see you in camouflage class today Jones!!!Thank you sir😂

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🤣🤣🤣🫡👍

[@moodyguymick]

DPM jacket and OG trousers were the best combination in my opinion.

[@simonh6371]

It was good but when I was in that was ''working dress' for in barracks, and in the field it was DPM trousers too. For stagging on, if I remember rightly, some units had us in combats, others in working dress.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Did look good and seemed to work

[@chanabhaji2726]

​@@simonh6371Lightweight pants we called them white in the ACF back in the 80's.

[@davebarber9510]

Denim’s comfort which was rather rare in the early 80s with the itchy scratchy rubbing of the KF shirt lol

[@simonh6371]

@@davebarber9510 Shirt, hairy

[@lankriverfront8360]

When acting as first-aid for an Air Cadets field craft training exercise, I sat on top of a ridge and when the cadets in MTP walked across the front of the trees, they looked like ghosts and were easily seen. While the cadets in DPM could not be seen

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I've witnessed the same

[@siroyal2040]

Good video mate, it's got to be dpm all the way for me hate that mtp junk it's cheapey made, where's dpm was mostly well made clothing, still wear dpm jackets for fishing and shooting etc keep safe, have a good weekend you 2 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@TheJon2442]

I had to wear for Op Olympics... We were told directly from the CGS's office. Sleeves down and shirt not tucked in... I immediately did the opposite, the next day General Walker CGS, he was a tad chunky. Turns up in the main olympic Ops room looks directly at me as I was introduced.... Nothing was said. Funny how generals don't get into silly arguments over little things. RHIP!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Many thanks as always 🙏

[@billmmckelvie5188]

Being in a military unit that was at the end of the supply line and ast supplied we were issued with '68 pattern DPM the green was a lot lighter than the 90 and 95 versions. The '68 filtered through to us in '81.with the 90 and 95 pattern I thought we copied the American Woodland cammo, or at least it gave you that perception! The best jacket I like is the '58 pattern Para Denison smock, followed up by the 68 DPM. It had very little black and the green was a good grass/foliage green!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Always liked the classic look of the Denison Smock never had one of course

[@mikeplatts2603]

I joined in 71 and they were just phasing out olive Drab for DPM, which was a bugger when wet and took weeks to dry, about the nearest thing to being "squaddie proof" was a pair of DPM combat trousers !!!! again, great memories Keith, many thanks.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Awesome thank you Mike

[@jfilm7466]

Muddy wet kit drying out on the Brecon Beacons 😂

[@woden20]

Totally agree with you. In British woodland DPM is far superior.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍💯

[@markbooth1117]

I live in a semi-rural area in the Pennines and also an ex-squaddie. I like the outdoor life, I prefer MTP up on the hills, which is mainly peat bogs/ heather, etc.so it blends quite well but I much prefer DPM down in the woods, as it blends in so well,, especially in the shadows of low sunlight and thick foliage, where as the MTP is too "light" for the woods and stands out to me.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I agree 👍

[@stephen4600]

They both have their place but I was wearing dpm which for our type of terrain is best ,multi cam is more for the sandbox in my view friend

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍

[@PreparedPathfinder]

MTP worked great in Afghan. It tends to go very light when well worn in though. DPM works far better in wooded environments and in the UK, but let's hope we're never fighting here.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Fingers crossed 🤞

[@keithdurose7057]

I served in the British Army from 1976 to 1999. DPM and jungle DPM. The junglies were similar pattern but brighter colours. I now live in Alberta, Canada. Here apart from winter whites. The 1959 Denison pattern seems to work the best. In spring, it can be incredibly green. Summer into autumn can be very yellow and brown. The MTP ony really works during these latter two seasuns. During WW2 as well as the Denison camo smock. Camo windproofs and trousers were also issued. The same pattern as the Denison but a pull over the head top and over trousers. The SAS used the top well into the 1970's. It was known as the SAS smock but was on general ussue during the war years. The SAS seemed to prefer it over the Denison smock.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Thanks Keith. 👌

[@funkyprepper]

Mtp for uk winter ground cover with dry leaves. Dpm for everything else in the UK. Mtp was designed for middle east ops. Just my opinion

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I agree 👍

[@bjowitt]

I suspect MTP was a bean counter measure to reduce having to have multiple patterns. I live near Catterick and see a lot of troops in MTP and think it does stand out more. I prefer DPM for Europe/temperate regions but then I’m an old sweat too.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Someone made some big cash from it?

[@Buckrogers8746]

The good old lightweights ,, still got a pair in my kit bag 😂 Stand too Sir

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Stood too here 😆

[@andrewfox6631]

Horrible things they were

[@Buckrogers8746]

@@andrewfox6631 No ,, do you think so

[@andrewfox6631]

@@Buckrogers8746 should never of been issued with lightweights. Not even fire resistant as I can remember. Should have just worn our coats all the time. Save the tax payers money on different uniforms

[@Buckrogers8746]

@@andrewfox6631 maybe, but too run with them was better than the old combat trousers,, in Irland in the sommer they were great 👍🏻

[@JohnGBlackBelt53]

I wore DPM for 8 years of my service and MTP for the last 8 years of my service. I hated MTP. It didn't fit as well, seemed to get damaged quicker and was made by the Chinese if I remember correctly. It was a bad day when they changed.

[@TheJon2442]

The teli tubby clothing is complete shit.... I served 76-19....

[@TheJon2442]

The teli tubby clothing is complete shit.... I served 76-19....

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

💯👍

[@RegUnsworth]

Black in the pattern mimics shadow and adds depth to the pattern.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Agreed 👍

[@johnnycooper7019]

Dear Keith, Another great topic for getting the juices going. As a fellow Ye Olde Git, I prefer dpm. When we had mtc issued (in stages) it looked like 'heinz 57' on parade 🤣🤣 I loved the lightweight greens (trousers) for extra street cred we had sewn in creases. We used to call it 'piping' Best Wishes Johnny

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Hi Johnny, I used to have two-tone lightweights from ironing one side of each leg 😆 🤣

[@johnnycooper7019]

@@LetsTab59-bd4fd 😂😂

[@rossthompson6305]

DPM is a much better camouflage. MTP is to light and sticks out like a saw thumb. We highlighted this when I was serving.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Agreed 👍

[@ArenBerberian]

I will always be a classic DPM snob. Both temperate and desert, are just so iconic and stylish! Also wearing desert bottoms with a temperate top is a great combo.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍💯

[@oldsoldier181]

As a long in the tooth US infantryman, our M81 woodland camo, affectionately called "God's plaid", was arguably the best camo we have. In a temperate climate, it is ideal. I spent a year in Cuba and, despite its arid climate-the woodland actually worked really, really well there. Especially the older, slightly faded uniforms. It made you damn near invisible, with the combination of the coral ground, small scrub grass, and the occasional slightly larger bush. If you laid down-even out in the open-you essentially disappeared. Honestly, camo these days is kind of irrelevant. Its GREAT in small teams, when you move to contact, set up ambushes, etc. But, it seems the us army has moved away from those operating standards. All that being said, I do have 2 M81 woodland camo uniforms, "just in case". It fits my environment, here in New England. It is ideal for this environment, through all 4 seasons!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Great to hear from the USA! I've never been to New England but from what I've seen (TV, online, books ect), it's a wonderful State. Thank you for your comment 🙏

[@red1072]

When I first joined the US Army in 85we had the woodland pattern camouflage. In Iraq we were wearing desert patterned uniforms. At night on missions we would wear the woodland pattern as the desert’s stood out too much. In the Eastern woodlands of New Jersey in the States the British DPM works great. My personal favorite are the smocks.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I really liked the old SAS windproof smocks in DPM

[@sharkwolf7788]

I do believe, and I might be wrong but its what I was told, patrols in Helmand were moving in and out of the green zone. So a compromise pattern has to be found to cover most terrain. Happy to be corrected if someone knows different

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I heard similar to what you are saying

[@mikechild3414]

Hi Keith, I would go for DPM everytime. I recall on basic training they got 3 guys ( in DPM as that was what we had at the time - 1980’s), and made them put cam cream on - one bloke with too much, one with too little, and one with the right amount, and they had to go and stand in the undergrowth in this forested area. You could spot the difference on the faces with the different amounts of cam cream, but the body shape was blended in to the foliage for all of them with DPM. I still have a windproof DPM smock that I occasionally wear if I go shooting. Happy memories of DPM! MTP is for the modern warriors! Aha

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🍻 nice one Mike

[@colinjones7741]

I personally preferred the DPM , because when I served they were lined inside which made them warmer in the winter.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

The lined ones seemed a bit harder wearing as well I think

[@jamiecole2096]

Crye Precision makes the US camo broadly refered to as MultiCam. British MTP is derived from the US product. MTP is more green and less brown. In New Zealand we took MTP and made the greens brighter. Not quite lime green, but you get the idea. We call this NZMTP.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Thank you Jamie. I always enjoy hearing details from outside the UK

[@andrewburns9311]

Another interesting and informative prodyction thanks LT59

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Cheers Andrew appreciated mate 👍

[@wessexdruid7598]

Not long ago I was working in an office while squaddies outside were being run through CBRN (what I remember as NBC) refresher training. Against a W.European background of greenery, the NCOs stood out glaringly in their MTP, while the trainees were pretty invisible in their noddy suits. I've been trodden on, too many times, while wearing DPM and not been seen up close.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Good example of DPM effectiveness

[@JayMac-gh1kx]

Dpm all day long mucker! Mpt all that is !! Is gash!! From a oldswet my self an ex'service AB ALL THE WAY BROTHER from the U.K.!! Nice one Keith lad from a oldswet my self 😊😊green on mucker keep training brother blessing to u all brother hoping that u an trace have a grate evening and wknd etc ok bro cheers man!!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Cheers Jay. Stay safe brother 🙏

[@leonandrews9486]

It's horses for courses. The old DPM was designed for use in the forests of Northwest Europe to be used against impending soviet block invasion. The forests are naturally darker and as such DPM works well in environments that mirror that, but ask a sniper what they see at range when targets are patrolling in open areas and they'll tell you a large black blob. MTP was designed to counter that very issue, as such in open areas like fields , BATUS and the like MTP is superior. The best I came across whilst serving was actually the old AUSCAM. I know it looked like a giant baby had been finger painting to achieve it, but it was very good.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👌👍

[@donxz2555]

Prior to DPM as you say we had OG which I remember replaced my short lived WW2 style battle dress, very shortly afterwards in the 70’s DPM made improvements which was trialled in various ‘styles’ (although my CSM at the time would not give up his Denison smock) In Oman plain sand colour shorts and sand lightweight trousers with for warmth a DPM jacket at night. Sand colour blended well and DPM also When in BAOR worked with a German border guard unit and they still used Sumptarn (tan and water) a WW2 cammo which has no black in it but uses dark brown - it worked well, the Berlin Police also used it up to the 70’s (an unusual smock as the bayonet frog was built into the rear of the smock) Never used MTP but I agree it looks too light, at the end of the day seasonal and regional variations sometimes just cannot be catered for by one uniform. I find it amusing that some countries navy’s issue a blue cammo for sailors, I presume that if lost overboard you can blend into the sea ?

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Great comment and thanks

[@abeltofscotch4120]

I must say I am a fan of MTP, it’s amazing how versatile it is and how did it take so long to come up with? It work’s brilliantly in the likes of Brecon and works just as good in Afghan. It is light, but if you’re fighting in Europe you’re bound to be wet anyway, which darkens it up. On their being no black in nature. I remembered I had a winter MTP smock which had a black lining in the hood, the Razzman wouldn’t let me wear it because “There’s no black in nature” what was that all about?!

[@wessexdruid7598]

Someone never saw a shadow, then.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that got told there's no black in nature

[@bugler75]

Op Herrick 4 and 8 we had Temperate DPM with the desert DPM due to the Green Zone. Original DPM was fantastic in Northern Europe and the jungle/rainforest. DPM clearly identified bus as British (standfast the Netherlands! 😁👍🏼). Overall, I like the DPM more but I suppose I have to move with the times. I wore my black boots in camp up until 2017. The RSM only gave me grace because of my position and I was ex Infantry! I only took one pair of those brown monstrosities to keep the QM (another ex ranker) happy 😁 It doesn’t matter what we wear, the best soldier to have by your side is another Tommy. Be he or she a Jock, a Paddy, a Taff, a Dave (all Englishmen are called Dave, right?😁) or a comrade from the Commonwealth, there’s that none that equal us. A Salute to each Serviceman or Servicewomen in the UK Forces! Faugh a Ballagh! Ian

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🫡 well said Sir

[@bugler75]

@@LetsTab59-bd4fd 😌🫡

[@jfilm7466]

In Sweden I use M90 in Summer, in early Autumn MTP trousers with M90 jacket. Before the snow comes in early winter all MTP. Winter full snow all whites top and bottoms or a combination of white trousers and depending where I am M90 jacket for the forest or MTP for semi urban. All these combinations work really well in the right time of year.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍

[@lcpltpow5870]

Having been issued both patterns, I can say DPM blends in very well with the background it was designed for whilst MTP blends in alright with almost any background. Jack of all trades, master of none. Apparently MTP also works better under thermals/night vision

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Didn't know about the thermal and night vision properties cheers 👍

[@danielmalthouse4429]

Another Brilliant video. Thanks again

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@davidthefirst6195]

DPM is iconic, but i suppose you need to move with new technology and ideas. The only thing surprises is the NOD didnt issue white boots with MTP as thats something stupid they would do

[@TheJon2442]

Sadly in the Falklands, the Argies had far superior boots. After that the decision to slightly modernizing footwear was made....

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

😆🤣😂

[@Gunner4746]

Fond memories of the Denison smock, Keith. We wore it with plain green or brown OG trousers up to 1977. I believe the paras were still wearing the Denison in 1979 with green lighweights. As for MTP and DPM, I only ever used DPM, they are just tools for the job mate. Good discussion point though, keep them coming 😊

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Thank you for your support as always 🙏

[@gunner678]

Got to say, the old denison smock and green trousers looked very good.

[@SafetyProMalta]

DPM always. #9 dress was fave. And the Compton & Webb stuff not the '95 garbage "MTP" = We can't be arsed to issue different patterns for each environment.

[@wessexdruid7598]

Too cheap, you mean.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Well summed up I think

[@RichardScovell-xz5nb]

DPM everytime...stylish yet practical, perfect for every occasion

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍

[@plumduff3303]

Fantastic film thanks keith was going to the gym but went for a tab instead..its addictive

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Brilliant, keep Tabbing it's free, thanks for your support 👍

[@stuartb4525]

When i joined in 84, we got issued Jungle Uniforms as they didnt have the proper uniforms. Only had them for roughly a month or so. Great idea, NOT, considering it was the beginning of January when i joined. As we were mere sprogs none of thought to mislay at least a pair of the trousers as they were great for exercises in the warmer weather.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Freezing 🥶

[@gunner678]

Bloody hell, jungles were as rare as hen's teeth. You should have put on two pairs of longjohns underneath and kept them 😂 . Those were the days. Get a shortage and a note back saying 'lost on Atlantic Conveyor'.

[@stuartb4525]

@@gunner678 As I said we were sprogs, we didn't know what the future held? If only we knew.

[@gunner678]

@@stuartb4525 indeed, we've all been there. Great days!

[@andrewhornsey5481]

DPM was what we had back in the 1990’s and in European Theatre personally I think it can’t be beat in the Middle East MTP 100%

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Agreed 👍

[@poulterbaz]

Have to agree with @trooperwolfie, MTP at night in woodland, you might as well have aneon flashing arrow above your head, DPM just blends in. My guess is they hope the end little toys out the pram episode takes place in desert/moutain environments, and not the leafy woodlands of western europe. Cracking video

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Bang on mate. Thank you for your support 🙏

[@janwitts2688]

DPM was the best... looks a lot smarter, tight in.. than the current loose look and pattern..

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍🫡

[@georgeatkinson759]

I recently bought a DPM pack...put it down in the woods and couldn't find it...

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

😂😂

[@alexalston7428]

Another entertaining vid Keith. I remember at IJLB we swapped our green combats for DPM. That would be '72. We also lined up and changed our various jumpers and denim jackets for the woolly pully. (I had a great wee brown v neck stamped 1943 and was reluctant to give it up) When posted to ANZUK in SIngapore it was OG's with 44 pattern webbing though troop trials for DPM were being carried out. That wasn't popular as the material was man-made and didn't wick at all. Op Banner had a couple of interesting changes with initial flack jacket over combat jacket then under. Now I think of it, a short sharp v interesting career. Like the navy recruit ad; born in Ayrshire made in the RHF!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Thank you Alex, what a great comment mate. Bits of first hand history like that could easily get lost over time but you've brought it back. Cheers my friend.

[@fergusmason5426]

I think the idea is it's supposed to be better than DPM in the desert, and better than desert among foliage. As I understand it, it was brought in to cope with the situation in Afghanistan, where troops were moving between dry, dusty areas and green cultivated areas in the course of the same patrol. Personally I'm convinced DPM is better in northern Europe. You're right; MTP is too pale in a forest.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍

[@BoerChris]

Hello, I was in a UOTC and then the TAVR 1973-1980. My experience is that no camouflage system is perfect. I mainly wore DPM, but that also used to stick out like a sore thumb until it got properly dirtied up. By the time you had been out on exercise for 3 days and dug a slit trench, all the colours mellowed down to fit in with the local landscape. I read somewhere that some armies (e.g. Austria) aren't even bothering with camo any more because it is a waste of money. I understand that MTP was developed for Afghan because the lads often had to move between sandy areas and green plantations. Looking at it in typical English terrain, I think it blends pretty well, There will never be a perfect solution.

[@RoyalMarinesCadetsCambridge]

Best camo for urban areas are yellow Hi-Viz jackets... Carry a clip board too and no one will go anywhere near you.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🤣

[@colp9492]

We got MTP for the falklands in 2011, we mixed it with Dutch dpm gortex and our dpm webbing and daysack, that mix worked really well in the wind swept long grass and gorse down there.

[@Katmando376]

Thanks Keith another great video. Keep Tabbing💂‍♂️👍🚶‍♂️‍➡️

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Roger that amigo 👍

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

It’s hard to talk about the value of a camouflage pattern when the thing that makes the most difference to your average bod is the build quality and the comfort. First couple of versions of DPM were robust AF but made out of lead. The sensible soldier cut out the lining…and then it was sound as a pound. You forgot that atrocity that was issued in the late 80’s (that was attributed to a fire at Donnington) which appeared to be made of material with the tensile strength of a teabag and it had those gopping sticky-out pockets. I’m glad that the ‘95 stuff was better made and the MTP gear looks pretty gucci. I’m also not convinced about the value of some camouflage. I went on the STANOC course once and it was explained how the various blotches tend to merge into each other at a distance. I’d like to feel that whatever the soldier has these days is optimised to work best at typical SA range (i.e. 300 metres).

[@vonsprague7913]

Aye do you remember how the Bundeswere flecktarn always looked solid in certain lights/ distances. The MTP is a bit light for Europe and fighting in someone's house though.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Great comment thank you very much it's appreciated mate 👍

[@stco2426]

I thought C-95 was very good in woodland and tree / shrub / field margins and boundary areas. If people were still then they could be very difficult to spot. While in the same sort of terrain MTP could be far more visible. C-95 clothing (except boots) was robust and well made but the layering system was not as good as for MTP. I think the material choices and layering qualities of MTP was far superior to C-95. MTP was much lighter, but also more flexible and warmer / cooler as required. Boots (and socks) available with C-95 were far inferior to those the more modern types. This has been a big improvement.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

It is getting better now

[@duntalkin]

I joined the RE in 75, and we had DPM then, along with DMS boots, that had to be highly polished 😂

[@zaynevanday142]

Mirrors 😂😂😂

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Absolutely correct, toes and heels at the very least 😆 🤣

[@phililpb]

DPM work well in the woodland but nowhere else. I remember being on exercise with two ozzy soldiers. As soon as we stepped out of the wood block the dark DPM stood out on grass lands. the lighter ozzy pattern was much more versatile. we later got MTP that used similar coloring.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍

[@clivenewton7609]

The clue to which is best is in the name😂😂 No camo is perfect in all scenarios But personally and from civi use of both, MTP is much more versatile across more environments but is at its very best in European spring and early to middle summer. DPM was at its best during the last “Cold War” and in Northern forests and during autumn/winter, just my 2 peneth of course. BZ for another Gt. video 👍🇬🇧

[@zaynevanday142]

😂😂😂

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Cheers Clive

[@davidbrown5411]

I was once asked by the QM whether I had counted the cam nets when I was CQMS. "Couldn't find them Sir". True story. 😂

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Fantastic answer, bet it went down well with the QM lol

[@davidbrown5411]

@@LetsTab59-bd4fd Fortunately he had a sense of humour. Unusual for a QM!

[@peterbrown1012]

When i was on my basic training, we had the olive drab combats with puttees that we wrapped around the top of the boots and bottom of the trousers, the boots had leather laces we had to polish and make sure they were straight. We received camouflaged combats when we joined the regiment.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I remember wearing putties very well

[@barrymason5714]

I was attached to 3 Para for most of 1976 and dress code was para beret, Denison smock, lt wt OG trousers, short putties and moulded sole black boots. No chat about any changes. While we were in Iran under MELF (Shar on the shelf) we changed to desert stone (beige) full set for the NISHAN Shoot competition against other MELF Nations, plus USA Rangers. We won with 7.62 SLR & GPMG. Yanks with 5.56 could not knock targets over. Had to use their 7.62 machine gunner for everything. What a laugh. Other Nations couldn't hit a barn door at 10 yards.

[@wessexdruid7598]

I love the concept of a 'Venison' smock.... Yes, deer.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Brilliant example Barry well done mate thank you

[@barrymason5714]

Well, 4 legs better than 2 for yomping! Saddle up the deer.

[@bill8784]

Still think olive green looked OK. Loved the lightweights. Very comfortable.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I remember having two-tone lightweights from only ironing one side 😆

[@nobby3542]

When i instructed the Air Cadets. We were just receiving MTP to replace the DPM that the cadets had. I carried out an observation exercise with yhe cadets. I placed 1 cadet in MTP and 1 cadet in DPM in the woods at the bottom of our location. The cadet in MTP 'stood out' like a dogs dodah! The problem is trying to accomodate for all environments!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Absolutely correct Nobby, nothing seems to fit all terrain

[@vincentbrooker3062]

Think MTP was a way of saving money, a jack of all trades master of none.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Agreed 👍

[@iainbickerstaff7099]

Dpm all day long. Who remembers our lightweights?

[@gorbalsmenshed-sz4zm]

still got a couple pair

[@derryhamilton9175]

And sewing in the creases because an iron hot enough to press them was hot enough to leave black clag on the plate!

[@TheJon2442]

When I got promoted to WO I, I wanted to wear a khaki peaked hat. However, we only wore lightweights in bks, they look stupid with lightweights, so wore my green beret....... So never got to wear...

[@terrystephens8603]

I liked lightweights because you made them 2 tone which I thought looked cool at time but could never get mine to look like the swets.😂

[@GavTatu]

lol ironed and starched so much, faded on one side of the crease !

[@AlexanderCooper1]

I have seen images where soldiers in Afghanistan wore desert dps dyed green and I think that will work quite well in various environments. The desert dps will dye easiest because they are lightest.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

It's sad when the lads still have to 'doctor' issue kit to improve it

[@leerolfe5332]

2508 here and well in the middle of DPM. MTP is far superior in my professional and recreational experience since leaving and doing my thing ;)

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Cheers my friend, thank you for commenting.

[@marksadventures3889]

I think it's horses for courses, all can work well in the right place. The disruption is the key and how you blend in as we all know. I have some of both cause i do stealth camping - yet on way to camp in public areas my gear is all in a large sports bag and I'm wearing sweat gear and trainers. Use what works. If I was going to East London, Birmingham or Blackburn I'd be tempted to use a full burka.

[@zaynevanday142]

No 😂

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🤣🤣

[@TheJon2442]

Must admit I prefer 95 to the teli tubby clothing currently in use!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

😂😂👍

[@TheJon2442]

​@@LetsTab59-bd4fdI served with 5AB mid 1980's I wore the old Dennison smock. When I left I gave it to one of the JNCOs. He was chuffed to NAAFI breaks.... I must admit I do like my hand made Altberg boots. I had them made for medical reasons.... After a broken femur.

[@TheJon2442]

​@@LetsTab59-bd4fdoh, in the late 1980's I needed to change my combats. I was a WO 2 at the time.... Two Cpls of mine begged me to let them have my combats. They were in very good condition, but issued in 1976... As they wanted to look like old sweats.... I exchanged my old combats with the two Cpls.... They were very happy. The reason why my combats were in such good condition was I looked after them and often was issued other clothing... AMF etc..

[@Tourist1967]

​@@TheJon2442Altberg - best boots I've ever had. Standard and lightweight tropical.

[@TheJon2442]

@@Tourist1967 I had two pairs made for me due to a slight injury,( quick visit to the factory in Richmond)....... Resulting in titanium implant in my right femur.... It's a tad shorter. I agree they are the dogs..... Even at 56 tabbing (by example we lead)with 20 odd year olds, never had any issues with my feet.....

[@stephenscragg8562]

Got to say I loved the DPM also the Deserts kit, we also wore DPM smocks at night in Iraq on Ops . Mtp is ok but is too light in wooded areas.glad to say we never had that awful digital stuff the Americans had. End of the day it's one pattern fits all for cheapness.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I think you're right, its an attempt at a compromise and a money saver

[@jayM4750]

I’m in Canada, we had a dpm pattern similar to the brit woodland dpm, but it had more tan and not quite as dark. It was worn by the airborne regiment in the form of a smock. Otherwise, we wore average Canadian greens until the late 90’s/2000’s when woodland cadpat was developed and issued. Marpat desert used by the usmc is a Canadian pattern, which they purchased from us. There was camo trials in the 70’s. 3 patterns, including the brit dpm. The uniforms were made and about the be issued, but Our PM at the time (Trudeau senior) inspected a regiment wearing the brit dpm and ordered a stop and closed the program because he said it made soldiers look too aggressive.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

How crazy was that....too aggressive 😳

[@jayM4750]

@@LetsTab59-bd4fd unfortunately I’m not making that up. Now we have tampon dispensers in male washrooms

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

@@jayM4750 jeeze

[@jelkel25]

His wife's boyfriend didn't want the Canadians to have better uniforms than his Cubans.

[@gunner678]

Still got my old DPM smock, blood n all. DPM was a good pattern IMO.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍👌🫡

[@gunner678]

@@LetsTab59-bd4fd 🫡

[@matjordan4848]

I recon DPM is pretty perfectly evolved for miserable wet days on Sennybridge (ie 90% of the time there) that's why it worked so well in the Falklands. MTP looks too light a shade for UK conditions. Probably worked better in Afghanistan than desert DPM though. Still got my '80s era DPM smock somewhere, but not much chance of getting the trousers on these days 😥

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍👌

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

The trousers shrink. It’s a known design fault. Same with stable belts…

[@davidleonard1813]

I'm Australian. We had Khakis then Auscam. Now a version of MTP. Tbh a few washes a but of wear either comes down to basically coyote for the main part. Which works fine mostly here. DPM. It works well in greener higher rainfall just as woodland does. Desert camo no time using them but I did notice the older brown/tan fatigues of South Africa worked well in their desert regions. Bit of truth there darker colours as washing bleaches pigment out. And there's your answer. MTP..Multi it's just a government yet again looking for the cheapest option.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

David, I think you've hit the nail on the head there mucker, it always comes down to Government of the day.

[@MikeJ-c72]

Black birds black sheep black cows..shadows lots of black in nature

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Exactly

[@TheJon2442]

I still have 1 x DPM SF windproof, full combats x2 ripsstop jackets and gortex. Teli tubby uniform x2 and gortex... And one pair of hand made Altberg boots... And other kit... I only handed back what the clothing store man requested.... I use the kit for gardening, the gortex is great for, when strimming....

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍

[@nickwilkinson5849]

Weather is shit here in Ireland mate. On my way back to Lincolnshire sometime this year 👍

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Brilliant you'll be back here mate 👍

[@CensureAsylum]

You can cam yourself up the best you can and still be seen. I know from experience. Top tip - get used to being cold.

[@beakyturbot]

MTP was bought out as a compromise to cover both DPM and desert DPM. It could be said it isn't as good in either situation. While prompted by cost (one set of kit rather than two) it was also as a result of early deployments into Afghanistan where there were both desert areas and green lush areas near water. Obviously you couldn't swap subject to the location of the patrol (which might cover both) and, subject to your location, you could stick out like a sore thumb if you had the wrong DPM (hence the double sided softie). In Europe, DPM is probably better but the design of modern MTP gear, as surplus for civilian use, makes it more desirable. The Mk II MTP smock has many features that make it far better than surplus DPM smocks. The Mk I MTP smock was flawed by its clever, but impractical, use of mesh ventilation that snagged on all of the velcro. My jacket of choice is a Mk II MTP smock because of the design and features. In the UK it would be a better jacket if it were DPM but the pockets, hand warmers, hood and convenience mean my Mk II MTP smock sees daily use and my MTP smock is left rotting in the corner.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👌👍🍻

[@nicholaswray2017]

DPM all the way! I still have my DPM para smock, the best jacket on exercise!

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Agreed 👍

[@wolfwise44]

I used to be of the opinion that if it was good enough for the British Army, it was good enough for me. Unfortunately, I can't say the same these days. In my time, lightweights and DPM 68 pat. smock was the order of the day and served us well. As for MTP, I'm not so sure. There is a US print known as ATACS-FG, which I find meets my discerning needs today, but I do miss the 68 pattern DPM gear.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍🫡

[@SkorpionFlux]

There is a Jungle MTP that is far darker and good. My dad had the Denison smock when he was in the army, I had the Falklands era DPM smock, I like Russian Partizan for Autumn.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Interesting, wasn't aware of a jungle MTP, makes sense

[@candlebright100]

I think dpm works better in the northern hemisphere mtp is to light

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍🫡

[@Rossco7422]

I'm with you mate, MTP is proper shit! It's what happens when a committee gets involved.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

The committee never seems to have any 'end users' participating .

[@Fidd88-mc4sz]

DPM is MUCH better than MTP, both for colouring, and the false-shadow that helps break up the shape of the figure or object. DPM plus foliage or scrim is excellent in temperate or jungle. MTP is "meh" (as my youngster would say) even in desert. It's adequate, and obviously better than DPM in green/brown/black. What they should have done, imho is to produce a reworked DPM for desert warfare, with countershading (darker tones) on shoulders, upper chest and upper back.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍good idea there

[@jaegarfiftyeight8048]

Which is better as a universal camouflage pattern - DPM or MTP? Having been brought up on DPM it’s hard for me to say it and after huge initial reservations (and operational experience), MTP IS better. #1. Out in the open and especially against heath/moorland type backgrounds (think Otterburn; Brecon etc) DPM is way too dark, it stands out especially to overflying aircraft. DPM works best in U.K. type woodland and especially in late autumn/early spring when the foliage collar palette in nature contains browns, blacks! and reds. MTP works well in each of the above situations but being lighter blends better than DPM, plus, at distance the blend of MTP colours merge to give it a dusty (khaki) appearance (especially as the clothing becomes aged and dirty. (No ‘Mrs’ puns please!🤣), quite similar to the old serge khaki battle dress (fancy that!). It’s no coincidence that MTP is very popular with both sides in the current RuSSo- Ukraine conflict. #2. Black does occur in nature, animals for example but that’s less relevant regarding a camouflage pattern. Black or near-black occurs in rotting vegetation and of course with shadow. Shadow in the rural environment occurs more so in the spring/summer (green) months where abundant foliage cover masks the darker appearance of DPM. In the autumn/winter (brown) months there’s less shadow but a wider range of decaying/rotting vegetation hence the colours of DPM. MTP does have black in it for the shadow reasons above but it also has that off white/beige colour which notably can pick up the predominant surrounding colour and boost the blending effect at close-middle distance but yet isn’t readily visible over 75 metres +. Regarding the bashers - you are right Kieth that MTP stands out against a ‘brown’ season woodland floor but if an opposition gets close enough to your harbour area to see that, it’s the least of your problems! In the ‘green’ season (used correctly) MTP is just as effective, arguably better than MTP. #3. The British MTP colour pallete IMO is ‘better’ than the US version (Multicam) specifically for the aforementioned khaki appearance. Even before they both become aged and dirty the MTP seems to have a slightly more subtle appearance. #4. I hope that the British Army doesn’t go over to the US version as I have heard recently based on Cost/production! #5. I’d post some phots - but you wouldn’t see anything! 🤣🤣🤣

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Really good comment thank you for taking the time to share it with us, very interesting

[@mrfitz96]

MTP is good but the problem is there are so many Multicam or MTP knockoffs in use around the world that identifying enemy forces is becoming tricky. Just look at Ukrainian soldiers, they have to cover themselves in brightly coloured blue or yellow tape thereby negating the benefit of having camouflage uniforms in the first place. Might as well just dress your soldiers in a plain drab colour like the Israelis do. Or maybe create something distinct ike MARPAT or Swedish M90.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

It does make me wonder when I see on TV the Ukrainian lads with bright yellow tape sometimes. As you say why bother with cammo.

[@jasonbarnes2568]

Earlier versions of DPM were lighter in tone. Over the years, they got darker and darker. I've yet to be convinced that MTP is any better than the earlier, lighter versions of DPM.

[@RoyalMarinesCadetsCambridge]

Are you sure you weren't just washing them too much? 😀

[@jasonbarnes2568]

@@RoyalMarinesCadetsCambridge Laughing... I used to try to wash mine as little as possible. A stiff brush can work wonders a lot of the time. Seriously, though, the later batches of DPM were far darker than the original ones.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍🫡

[@Otacatapetl]

I'll have to sit on the fence, as i was AD and we wore the same as the Paras; Denison smock and OGs. And like the Paras, it was our walking-out dress too.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

👍🍻

[@janwitts2688]

Preferred black boots.. black occurs in nature.. its called shadow

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Well that's what I was thinking, and if an enemy is close enough to see the colour of your boots surely your screwed anyway

[@ontherunplmr1218]

I was in my Army Surplus store the other day and asked the owner if he had DPM and MTP jackets, he told me they were on a rack and pointed. 5 minutes later I went back to hm and told him I could not see them ! 😊

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

😂😂

[@paulappleby840]

Dpm all the way, I'm old school, mtp, just doesn't cut it in my eyes, anyway, stay safe, and keep your powder dry. Paul.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Cheers Paul

[@gunhojput]

Depends on the terrain surely but everyday wear should be dpm imo and black boots its smart afterall, and i remember when in the army cadets back in 70's we wore british ww2 style battledress we felt smart and i mean we were really smart and very distint as in we are army, when i joined the regular forces later and wore number 2's i felt like a copper in kaki, good job tab looking forwad to the q&A love to all.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Great stuff thanks and Q&A will be on this weekend

[@gunhojput]

@@LetsTab59-bd4fd i will engage.

[@phililpb]

I wore green, DPM, MTP and desert Pattern. never had a preference or a choice it was a uniform

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Roger that Phil cheers mate 👍

[@righteousindignation]

I joined with DPM now wearing MTP. I personally think DPM works better in woodland. Also the new fabric brown boots are annoying because you cant polish fabric and I miss having the shiniest boots on unit

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Good to get feedback from someone serving, thank you

[@christopherosment6862]

The original DPM from the 60s has the best colour way

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🍻

[@markpirie1986]

Mtp was designed for ISAF coalition allies to recognise and identify other foreign host friendly force's/allies, from long distances whilst not getting fired at (blue on blue) from the yanks, whilst in coverage of the Green zone and also in musaqalah, etc. But desert dpm 95 was ideal for the likes of mussah qalah, and the disbanded FOB arnhem, that was 40 minute's northwest of arnhem. So if was operational in that territory again in the green zone, I'd wear a combination of MTP UBAC t-shirt, and have my old desert 95 combat trousers, wearing my leather altberg boot's 😊😅

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

🫡💯👍

[@peterwait641]

We were told the reason the black on green camouflage on vehicles was stopped was because it was too aggressive . Think the real reason was cost of paint. In the 1980's they sprayed the vehicles before handover to replacing unit with paint thinned down with petrol , no masks . Sprayers were allowed two pints of milk from cookhouse a day lol. In recent years they decided exposure to IR paint is carcinogenic and should not be sanded or ground off . Found the buttoned sleeves of early DPM snagged in cam nets , velcro sleeves were much better.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

I was always getting hooked up in the cam nets, especially at night 😆

[@tonydavies5283]

Liked the DPM as a camo , but wearing the No 8 's in the summer you'd sweat like a bull and in wet weather it felt like they doubled in weight lol. Hated the wet and dry routine with them . Putting on freezing cold and wet/damp DPM's first thing in the morning wasn't my idea of fun 😂 no such thing as black in nature , most of the Army's vehicles were black and green camo 🤦‍♂️😂

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Wet and dry routine was the worst

[@kurtsteiner8384]

Have been to middke east but was not serving at that time. Desert can be very cold and dark. Never got cambo in rn normally our rm cousins did. We just got no8s working rig which was blue gibraltar we had ro use tropical rig not so heavy nos 1 and 2 rig normally whites. Shows up well and every mark on it. Black shoes and boots unless seaboats crew, where you had a red suit and seaboots.

[@LetsTab59-bd4fd]

Cheers Kurt