Can 3D Printing Fix This Tormek Problem? [WM200 AngleMaster]

Tormek WM200 3D Printing .stl File: (Thanks to @meisteredel3021)
www.printables...

[@paulsherry8272]

Baz, Tormek has just released a new knife angle setter. The KS-123. I have ordered one. Works on all models and stones. looks good

[@iSharpen]

Yes, I saw the movie. I like the speed and simplicity of this one.It does everything I need and is widely adaptable to every type of blade. It's fast and simple. The new one looks a bit too fiddly for my liking. Might get one just to be sure but as they were (painstakingly) demonstrating it I found myself shaking my head. Then again, I'm old and weird which is never a good combo. 🙂

[@iSharpen]

Not everything new is good. For example, I can't use the new knife jig because of that funky handle. I'm used to tucking my thumb into that cup on the back. It's better at centering knives but I've never found that to be a real world problem to be honest. I'm looking at snapping up any last remaining old jigs I see. I'm too old to change with the modern times sometimes.

[@paulsherry8272]

@@iSharpen The WM200 is not going anywhere. It's still the go-to product for single beveled tools like chisels and plane blades. Wolfknives gives a good demo visually. I don't know German so I can't understand a word. It looks like you could almost use it one handed.

[@iSharpen]

@@paulsherry8272 I kind of love all the little tools and jigs that got me started and have lead to my sharpening career (dare I say) "success". They're like my friends. The KS is interesting but nothing could be the instant speed of the WM200. These days I leave it on 13-14 and work the knives off the gap. If you know, you know. Have you tried auto translate for the german?

[@paulsherry8272]

@@iSharpen Was not available for that video. I could try an AI app but I got what I needed visually

[@rhinejuice]

You should just make it out of sheet metal or 5mm bar stock. Someone on here with a waterjet or laser could make it pretty. But you could just fit a small tab on the worn out ones replacing contact edge of the jig. Maybe I will make you one if I have everything on hand.

[@iSharpen]

I was tossing up just making one by hand but I think the dimensions have to be exact. Still might. Is that a double dare? 😂

[@rhinejuice]

@@iSharpen make a template while it is still in good shape

[@iSharpen]

@@rhinejuice Yes, was thinking the same thing but that pin on the back has me a bit stumped. I can make the shape and the top but how would I get that pin to stick out at exactly the right spot?

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

@@iSharpen I thought you had an engineering background? I maybe wrong but that seems relatively simple. Drill a hole in the right place and glue in a shouldered bolt with the threads cut off or use a piece of brass rod. I wouldn’t go to that until I’d tried making a brass or steel wear pad and glueing and or riveting it to the bottom off the angle guide.

[@iSharpen]

@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 yes, but matters are further changed motivated with a pivot pin on the back that is critically placed. A better solution was to eliminate the problem entirely by never touching the wheel in the first place. As soon as I modified my behaviour by sliding down the face of the blade instead of grind up the face of the wheel the problem was 100% eliminated. I’ve been using my new one for months and it’s still in pristine condition. Problem solvered. He’ll be along shortly to say “you’re welcome”. I love my viewers and subscribers. They look out for me. ❤️

[@swingbelly]

Tormek has brought out several new/enhanced jigs in the last, mainly to replace older models with better functionality. So why the heck haven' they fixed the inherent wear problem with the WM 200? Would seem simple enough to correct with a replacement metal part. Has anyone even advised them of this defect? Wondering.

[@iSharpen]

I I know how you feel. I felt the same way until I found out that I was using it the wrong way (by a subscriber). I only place it on the blade. It never touches the wheel and so now it never wears out.

[@Steven-v6l]

You do know, the Tormek should be OFF when using the angle finder, right ??

[@iSharpen]

@@Steven-v6l haha!

[@cbwx34]

You should consider the new KS-123 jig... the AngleMaster doesn't account for blade taper from spine to edge, which can result in an error that could be greater than what you're seeing with your worn-down part. 😉

[@iSharpen]

Yeah I saw it when it first came out. Not convinced it's necessary for me yet. I like that I can set the angle in 3 seconds then get on with the job. As for the error, I've measured the worn out part against the new one and the more worn out it gets the higher the eventual angle by about 1-2 degrees and you know? I'm think "who cares?" Angles aren't essentially set in stone anyway. They were determined by some random human and treated as the word of god ever since. I say pfffft! As long as they're around or preferably a bit less than 15 per side they'll do the job. This obsession with exact angles makes no difference in real life use which is what I deal in day in and day out. I can deliver a knife with a measured angle of anywhere between 13 and 18 per side and I'd put money on no one being able to tell the difference. The only time it makes a difference is on really thick knives when the 13 creates a large bevel but I simply dial it back a bit so it "looks right". Thoughts?

[@cbwx34]

@@iSharpen I think the difference setting the AngleMaster on a tapered bevel can be greater than you think.

[@iSharpen]

@@cbwx34 Nah, the bevels are 1-3 degrees, half of that translated down to a tiny 1mm bevel right on the edge is almost insignificant. I think people are making way too much of a big deal about micro angles. It makes almost no difference. In fact the only difference might be on the bleeding edge of BESS testing but even then the deburring has more of an effect on sharpness than a poofteenth of a degree of angle on a bevel that's often less than 1mm. In my opinion, the only thing that matters is; does a knife cut well in it's intended purpose? And there's a great deal of flexibility when it comes to that as almost any knife at almost any angle if ground and deburred properly will do more than a good enough job for almost all intended purposes. After having ground thousands of knives, I'm convinced. I've been thinking of this a lot lately.

[@cbwx34]

@@iSharpen The taper on some knives can be 5 deg. or greater per side... like I said, bigger than you're saying. Just pointing out that it was bigger than your "concern" for the error in your damaged AngleMaster. You're right, exact angles don't matter.

[@iSharpen]

@@cbwx34 Very few kitchen knives (which is what I sharpen 98% of the time) are that large. I'm not that concerned. The reason is that I've sharpened thick cleavers at 50 degrees and thin Jap knives at 24 degrees and they all slice cigarette paper and glide through all foods. Angles are probably more of a concern with longevity and fragility than sharpness and I'm in the business of sharpness...as long as people stay away from trying to pry frozen foods apart with $1,000 super thin jap knives like they were crow bars I think I'm good at any small-ish angle for almost any knife. In fact I'd be able to deliver sharp knives with correct looking angles even without an angle master...just as all the belt sanding guys do. They don;t even measure angles. They just guess and slap it on a fast moving belt sander without a single care or concern about angle. The same goes for stone sharpeners. They never measure. And yet we all produce hyper sharp knives. I think that's interesting and my conclusion is that exact angles make almost no difference to "guess and close enough".

[@buckw65]

Thanks so much for this video. I have a buddy with a 3D printer. He's going to print me a few ....thanks again

[@iSharpen]

Let us know how it turns out. That little pin on the back is going to be a bugger to get right. It's pretty crucial.

[@buckw65]

@iSharpen that's good info on the pin. I will tell him to print 1 and I'll try it. Not much use having 3 with a wrongly located pin

[@toastedcheesesandwiches]

Fantastic video! Keep us informed how it goes. Would love to see the new part made in metal. I reckon it'd be a sellable item as well.

[@iSharpen]

To be honest, these parts should never have been made from plastic in my opinion. Even the brand new one in the video is already starting to show signs of wear and I've only used it for demonstration in this video. Not too sure about selling but happy to document my discoveries for others.

[@swingbelly]

​@@iSharpen Baz. Would duplication of any parts of tha AM violate the patent rights held by Tormek?

[@swingbelly]

​@@iSharpenAnother foreseeable problem with a metal pointer could be the wearing off of the degree markings on the faceplate. A whole different situation then arises. Indeed, the AM should have been completely fabricated of metal just as is the new 1-2-3 angle jig. Perhaps, pre-determined built in failure without replacement parts.availability. Indeed, Tormek accessories are expensive, but the new metal angle jig is about C$22.00 more expensive than the AM @ C$46.00.

[@silvertourist]

Great video thanks for sharing, it will be interesting to see how it developes. One in Titanium would be brilliant - Can I have one please? Have you discussed the issue with Tormek?

[@iSharpen]

Glad you enjoyed it. I've sent them this video, they're getting back to me next week. I also would be interested to see how much a titanium one would cost. I think they print them out with metal printing which is fascinating. Apparently they use powdered metal, super heat it then use a laser to shape it. Not sure how they'd get that little pin underneath though. With plastic I can sort of understand how they'd do it but not the metal version. I will keep everyone updated. Keep an eye out on this channel.

[@josecordoba5621]

Titanium! That will be worth it. Great video as well baz.

[@iSharpen]

I love a permanent solution too. But any metal should be fine. Stainless works too.

[@iSharpen]

Update. That wanted over $1,200! I laughed and hung up mid sentence.

[@MoHarbi-k2v]

what about the new KS-123 tormek says it's more accurate and can be used on the stone and leather wheel

[@iSharpen]

I haven't used or bought one but to me it seems like a waste of time and takes longer to set up and use. I watched the 'how-to" video released by Tormek the day it was released and half way through the video I lost interest. I couldn't see myself ever slowing down my operation and speed that much to warrant not only it's cost but it's ownership or consideration. This WM-200 is an excellent invention and takes 3 seconds to use. To me, in a commercial environment, every moment counts when I'm busy. If I had to stop and fiddle with that thing for minutes at a time it'd cost me a lot of money for no advantage at all (that I can see). I could be wrong but for me it's a hard pass. As for the problem I'm describing in this video it was solved by a viewer's suggestion that I should change the way I use it. I used to drag it up from the wheel to the knife causing the wear on the indicator. He suggested, that instead of doing that, I should place the pointer on the knife first and slowly lower it to meet the wheel. This was an excellent suggestion. I've been doing it this way ever since and my pointer remains in pristine condition so I'll probably just continue with the WM-200. As for it being more accurate, I'm not sure how it can be. And besides, I think there is a massive over estimation of exactly how accurate a knife angle needs to be. The angles are largely arbitrary and were invented by people guessing what they should be. There's no law (of physics) that determines what a knife angle must be. We've all just accepted the standard angles to be super important and set in stone but I'm not finding that to be the case. A kitchen knife at any angle from 25-46 would perform almost identically. There are so many factors that go into a knife's performance like steel composition, blade thickness, maintenance, style of use, cutting surface...etc that strictly sticking to pre-agreed exact angles is largely a furphy in my experience. I now see angle setters to be a guidance tool, especially useful when starting out but if I lost mine I'd still be able to sharpen at a correct-looking angle and the knife would work just fine. Think about knife sharpeners for the centuries preceding the invention of an angle setter. How did they do it? What about the millions of current knife sharpeners that use manual bench top stones? They don't use angle setters. I've seen professional knife sharpeners in factories and a knife angle setter is nowhere to be found. I like using mine because it gets me in the ballpark very quickly but I don't obsess over what is correct and what is incorrect. However, having said all that, I do like cool things and it might be fun to play with but I wouldn't take exact angle setting or accuracy too seriously. Not any more anyway. When I started I took it very seriously thinking that it was the most important thing to get a sharp knife. I obsessed over it just like all new knife sharpeners but now I've learned from thousands of knives sharpened what a decent angle looks like. Have you bought one? How do you find it?

[@MoHarbi-k2v]

@@iSharpen I didn't look at it from the speed perspective, I was looking at the accuracy. According to the Tormec advertisement, i was thinking it's same as using the angel calculating apps but faster after reading your viewpoint, I was convinced again, especially since your results reached the point of cutting cigarette paper. Thank you so much for taking the time to give me such a thorough answer. I'm really grateful, and a little embarrassed too. It's great to get advice from an expert not marketers

[@iSharpen]

@@MoHarbi-k2v I enjoy the conversation as much as creating the movies. Don’t be embarrassed. We want to believe. I don’t see how it can be more accurate but I also don’t see how accuracy of random angles matters. My wake up came after a cleaver sharpened at “50°” sliced through a cigarette paper as smoothly as a “30°” chef knife. That made me stop and think about the relevancy and validity of knife angle hysteria.