Can Theravada Buddhism Survive in the Modern West?

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[@FRED-gx2qk]

Second listening even more insight thanks wisdom Trio 👌

[@sathanmaneetham1638]

Buddhists can lead a happy life within society and achieve prosperity by continuing their practice. The 10 meritorious actions fall into three categories: physical, verbal, and mental. Physical Meritorious Actions: 1. Refrain from harming or killing animals and other living beings. 2. Avoid stealing or taking what doesn't belong to you. 3. Abstain from engaging in sexual misconduct. Verbal Meritorious Actions: 4. Speak truthfully and avoid lying. 5. Refrain from spreading harmful rumors or speaking ill of others. 6. Avoid using offensive or abusive language. 7. Abstain from engaging in meaningless or idle chatter. Mental Meritorious Actions: 8. Let go of coveting or being envious of others' possessions. 9. Avoid holding grudges or harboring malicious thoughts towards others. 10. Cultivate moral approval and virtuous thoughts. By practicing these meritorious actions, Buddhists can enhance their well-being, harmonious relationships with others, and find prosperity in life.

[@rakkhasa]

It would be interesting to see these three discuss abhidhamma, since Pañño has voiced some criticisms while Ajahn has referenced it approvingly in his own talks.

[@wyrdflex5863]

Frankly just having those two rap on anything would be a delight

[@anoldgod]

Actually the entire nun orders in Burma is what you suggests lay monastics and then there are various yogi orders who are lay persons who follow varying degree of rules

[@zaneivy]

...why not look to the Vajrayana Ngakpa tradition and see how maybe some ideas from that could be adapted/adopted?

[@FRED-gx2qk]

The humour wear gloves !!! for handling money LoL . Most monks in Thailand smoke tobbaco . Thanks for the wisdom Much Appreciated !

[@robertgrzyb7180]

Yes they do smoke. But for me smoking cigarettes (and almost always being addicted to them) is the opposite of the dhamma. The point is to get free from this world and not to be addicted to things in it. In my opinion anyway.

[@sathanmaneetham1638]

Buddhists are people who have faith in Buddhism and consider themselves part of the Four Company Buddhas, which include monks (bhikkhu), nuns, laymen, and laywomen. These individuals can be grouped into two categories: 1. The Sangha: This group consists of monks and nuns. 2. The Householder Group: This group comprises laymen (men) and laywomen (women). Each group has different duties and roles in relation to Buddhism: 1. Duties and roles of Monks: Monks and novices have specific responsibilities to preserve and propagate Buddhism: 1.1 Education: Monks study the threefold principle, encompassing precepts (227 rules), meditation for calming the mind, and wisdom for intellectual development and understanding the truth of life. These teachings help in solving various life problems and ending suffering. 1.2 Preaching: Monks act as preachers, teaching Buddhist principles to children, youth, and the general public through sermons. They must possess a good knowledge of Dharma. 1.3 Dhammaduta: Monks serve to spread Buddhism both domestically and internationally. 1.4 Pilgrimage: Monks venture out to bring Buddhism to hill tribes and remote areas. 1.5 Lecturing: Monks conduct lectures on morality and ethics for government agencies, private sectors, and the public. 1.6 Vipassana Achan: Monks teach meditation practices according to Buddhist teachings. 1.7 Developer Monks: These monks work to help the community, giving advice and assistance to improve villagers' well-being. They play a significant role in the development of society. 2. Duties and roles of Laypeople: Laymen and laywomen who are close to Buddhism have specific roles in the present society: 1. Regular Interaction with Monks: They should visit and meet with monks regularly. 2. Listening to the Dharma: Laypeople should attentively listen to Buddhist teachings. 3. Study in the Highest Precepts: Lay Buddhists should train themselves to advance in the practice of keeping precepts at a higher level. 4. Respect for Monks: Laypeople should show devotion and respect towards monks, regardless of their seniority (Thera, Middle Monks, or Navaka). 5. Attitude Towards the Dhamma: They should listen to the Dharma without seeking to criticize or find mistakes. 6. Merit within Buddhist Principles: Laypeople should not seek blessings or make merit outside of Buddhist principles. 7. Supporting Buddhism: Laypeople should primarily support the religion by helping to maintain and engage in Buddhist affairs. Regarding The Sangha, it is said to consist of eight noble persons, forming four pairs. These pairs are: Sodapattimagga and Sodapattiphala, Soktakamimagga and Soktakamiphon, Anakamimagga and Anakamiphala, and Arahattamagga and Arahattaphala. In total, there are eight individuals listed. Please note that precepts may vary depending on time and place, but those who wisely adhere to them would benefit from refraining from certain actions intentionally.

[@robertgrzyb7180]

Have you ever met Bhikkhu Jaganatha (Bhante Jag), an Australian monk who ordained in Pa Auk tradition in Myanmar in 2007? I like his youtube talks although he disrobed in 2017.

[@pannobhasa]

I don't recall any Australian Bhante Jags, which is odd in this case because I've been to Pa Auk several times, a few times around the time he was there.

[@FRED-gx2qk]

How can you travel without money I dont Understand ??? I have often thought of these rules how much weight in Karma do these rules really have . How does Ajahn get his food ? I find this all a very high bar .

[@pannobhasa]

I used to travel without money by having a ticket donated to me. I was stranded in the Denpasar, Bali (Indonesia) airport twice because I didn't have any money to pay for the visa on arrival. Sometimes it can be a little scary, but *usually* there was no problem other than maybe having to fast for a day.

[@beatriceportinari4621]

It's interesting that you mentioned Christmas Humphreys and smoking tobacco. An Englishman, I would guess/bet Humphreys was trying to make the case for its acceptability? Humphreys was also a famous English jurist with quite a few miscarriages of justice (innocent people were found guilty and hanged with him acting as prosecutor) under his wig and jurist's robes as well as controversial sentences handed down in a couple of contrasting cases when he was a judge. See the movie 10 Rillington Place for a case he prosecuted. It does sound like there was a lot of incompetence on the part of the police though.

[@pannobhasa]

The way I heard it, Humphreys was simply asking the monks for their decision at the Great Council, but the issue was too unusual for the old Asian monks presiding.

[@GoodBoy-rf7tp]

Change the culture of the west rather than Theravada. Might take many generations but I think it is preferable to chaning Theravada. If one person can change the rules then everyone can, and everyone will.

[@saintsword23]

I think we have to be practical here. Changing an entire culture to be conducive to a foreign religion is so impractical it's a non-starter. The suggestion to have a monastic "Theravada-adjacent" sect like Pannobhasa suggests isn't a bad compromise.

[@saintsword23]

Theravada isn't going to spread without some common sense changes and we shouldn't be worried about making a mess, because the situation is already a mess. If the elders in SE Asia want it to become a worldwide religion, they need to get that council going and approve common sense changes to adapt Theravada to foreign cultures and climates. I get that Theravada is a very conservative sect, but a rule like "not being able to teach Dhamma to someone wearing shoes" being strictly enforced in the West is just a non-starter and it's not important enough to hold up the entire religion. And the one you guys mention: only three robes...is it really worth it not being able to spread the religion into any non-tropical countries just to keep the original rule? These rules also have no bearing on one's pursuit of Nibbana, unlike far more important rules like "not indulging in entertainments." It's not really that difficult to stick to the original intent of these rules (being simple to care for/not having more possessions than necessary in the case of robes) while making necessary adjustments to fit foreign cultures. These cultures certainly aren't going to bend to Theravada, Theravada is going to have to bend to them. I mean, if we're going to be this anal about vinaya, then every monk should be fine to have a cellphone...nothing in the vinaya against internet! In fact, monks could play video games all day and not be breaking vinaya, because we're not going by the intent of the rule, remember? We're going by the strict, literal interpretation, and there's an explicit list of games, dancing, singing, music...but nothing against video games! See, choosing between the literal interpretation or intention behind the rule is already arbitrarily chosen. The literal interpretation is used in the case of teaching Dhamma to people wearing shoes or holding various items in their hands, but the intention behind the rule with cellphones and video games. The whole situation is already a mess. If the SE Asian elders aren't willing to fix the situation, I think the West should just yoink the whole thing, go full EBT w/adjustments for our culture, and just do the whole thing ourselves.

[@pannobhasa]

Although there are plenty of loopholes in Vinaya that allow monks to do not very Dhammic acts (like playing poker for match sticks, or cussing, or playing music in one's head), the Dhamma itself is a kind of net that still clearly designates such acts as unskillful. Vinaya isn't everything, though it is much more important than most western Buddhists realize. (It was recited first at the first council, according to tradition, because it is of first importance.) I see no problem at all with the 3 robes rule, because common sense allows a monk to use thick cloth and also a woolen felt cloak. Only really cold places require anything more than that, especially if there is snow. I got along fine as a monk wearing 3 robes down to freezing temperatures. With regard to "just doing the whole thing ourselves" with regard to making Theravada more amenable to the western temperate zone, that could easily cause the result to no longer be Theravada, which is why I coined the term "Navakavada" (the Doctrine of the Newcomers) years ago. No doubt much of the changes would be common sense and beneficial, but considering what western Buddhism is already like, much of the changes would likely also be pernicious.

[@saintsword23]

@@pannobhasa And yet I live in Northern Indiana, where it quite regularly gets well below freezing. And this isn't even close to the coldest place in the US let alone North America or the world. The three robe rule HAS to change in these places as it's clearly a rule for tropical and subtropical climates. You can't live in the forest with three robes in this climate. It's also absurd to have the vassa at any time other than winter in these climates too. How about sitting surfaces not being made out of cotton? What in the world does that rule matter to one's pursuit of Nibbana? Does cotton magically make it impossible for the monk sitting on it to attain the deathless? Or is it just that in the Buddha's time and place cotton was a luxury? If it's the latter, and cotton is no longer a luxury, then common sense also dictates we chuck this rule, because keeping it makes it HARDER to care for the monks, not easier. And don't get me started on Dhammayut and addictive substances, or the Burmese and pointing the feet. All of this is obviously culture baggage. The point is that the East wants to make common sense and cultural exceptions for itself, but then takes exception with the West doing the same, particularly when we have a cultural much further removed from the original source of these rules. We Westerners are totally right in calling this out. If we're going to allow common sense changes (which we should), then we're going to have to make common sense changes. I've heard Asians say the West isn't ready for monasticism. I think the situation is more that the East isn't ready for the West to do monasticism. We've had Christian monasticism for thousands of years anyways, we're not even newcomers to this parade. Well, frankly, this is going to happen. Whether the end result "is Theravada" or not I can't say, but either Theravada/something resembling it never gets past a few Goenka centers and Amaravati, or the West will just grab it and chuck out the obstinate East if it needs to. Something will budge.

[@pannobhasa]

@@saintsword23 That's all fine, but by the time you're done it simply won't be Theravada anymore. One problem with westerners and monasticism is that westerners in general are spiritually retarded ("you cannot serve both God and Mammon"), and monastic renunciation doesn't work as well in the west. Hence strict Catholic monks undergoing vows of silence yet still making beer and butchering their own goats. Part of the problem is that changes from a spiritual ancient Indian culture to a spiritually destitute modern western one are relatively likely to result in perversions of the original message. It won't be all bad, but probably more than half of it will. Still, anything has to evolve to survive a changing environment, and Navakavada will probably be better than nothing.

[@Josephbrownbear]

The three robes are bodies the space for fourth is Christ return

[@alankuntz6494]

Pannobhasa you really got too much Left Right it was a time of discriminating mind stuff going on . I don't know how anybody could be a month or 30 years and into a daily meditation practice calm abiding meditation practice who can still be into this cultural political partisan crap. I really feel bad for you