How Durable are Skin on Frame Boats?

[@manmaas]

That clears that up. I was planning on building one of these but as I live in a heavy samurai wielding area perhaps not.

[@stevenb7319]

Wow! Great stories. I have been wondering for a long time about the durability of the skins. This video was the most thorough explanation I have seen yet. I have not gotten to build or buy one of your boats yet but have been a fan for several years. Thanks for another great educational video.

[@tuberider1171]

Thanks Brian. I'm sold. In summary and for others, I got the following points out of your video. SOFs can be way lighter than rotomolded and composite boats depending on the materials used Trade-off. SOFs are less puncture and abrasion resistant than composite kayak but far more impact resistant given the ability to flex. If you smash into something large and hard you aren't likely to punch a hole in the side unlike composite boats. The natural lifespan of the skin ranges depending on the amount of kayak use and treatment as well as sun exposure - with lots of use you'll get 5 years, with careful limited use people get 10-15 years. Medium weight layups are between 27-33 pds (12 -14 kgs) depending on the persons size, - Usually make longitudinals out of Western Red Cedar to keep it light and the ribs out of White Oak for strength. - The skin is 9 oz (0.25kg) ballistic nylon skin coated with 3-4 coats of 2 part polyurethane. For more durability use 12 oz (0.34 kg) nylon but it's way heavier if you're willing to pay the weight penalty. 9 oz is still extremely resistant to puncture. Having said that SOFs have extremely low failure rates from punctures. When paddling sharp sticks and rocks usually just scratch them but rarely cause serious damage. Small punctures and abrasions can be touched up with sealant (small cuts may first need sewing together). If necessary you can laminate holes with a patch (and if it bothers you replace the skin but its about 3 days work plus materials). Temporary fixes due to failure on water are the same as composite boats i.e. duct tape or bituminous membrane Be careful dragging SOFs on beaches to minimise abrasion as they're not as easy to repair as a composite boat. For abrasion resistance, when building, put on extra polyurethane coatings and add fibreglass or wear strips on the bow, stern and chines protect the skin. cheers Brian - I'm sold on these - happy to amend the summary if need be.

[@empe3332]

Nice brake out. Have you done the boat?

[@JonSteitzer]

Extremely well made video with a great prep and script. Just great timing, good flow. Nice job!

[@profiskipinternational4402]

Since I watched couple of days ago the boat your lady built I had thought about this question. So thanks making that clear. Tks for sharing. :-)

[@citizenwolf8720]

What a great video. :) Stories well told. Holy cow, that rebar into the boat !!! And no damage beyond the superficial. And the story about the kayak being thrown on the rocks and surviving intact. That's amazing. :0

[@PatrickMacLachlan]

I think the takeaway here is that the best place to chat boats with you would be from the relative safety of a bar stool. But seriously, your approach, experience, clarity of thought, and video instruction quality are all absolutely amazing and I can’t wait to dive into building…probably an F1.

[@andrewbraye84]

Your honesty & experience was refreshing; thank you.

[@calhiser8265]

in the 60s my cousin Dave and I built fuselage kayaks. Dave's had plywood ribbs and canvas painted with latex house paint. It did really well if you doesn't poke it with your finger because the paint would crack. Mine had pine ribs and canvas painted with airplane dope. Sadly his was short lived while I enjoyed paddling mine over a decade. The only puncture mine got happened when it was hanging in the garage and my dad you it with the corner of a sheet of plywood.

[@matthewszostek1819]

If you have through hole damage just sand it to feather out the spot, tape over the hole inside, patch with CSM, sand it smooth, and apply a top coat. Easy day.

[@enricakita1]

Fabulous video. I have some ugly abrasion scratches on my F1. They show up when they are dry. Would it be a good idea to apply some oil to conceal them, or some extra varnish? Thank you Ps would you do a video on just how to apply a patch correctly please?

[@downeastprimitiveskills7688]

Wonderful over view on the durability of these boats! Real time usage and end results. The drop off a building is a fun thing but doesn't go to the place of actual use. Thanks,

[@NW_Ranger]

It is just an analogy. An “off the cuff “ expression. The analogy does reflect on very real world issues. In other words impacts or collisions with objects of mass greater than the boat itself. Such boulders in a river, rock formations on the coast, being dropped or loosing control of the boat on a slope during a portage… etc.

[@LoaFrz]

Hi you forwarded me to this video from another, I asked about durability (I guess like everyone else too!) and I find these stories amazing. It sounds like the lighter more flexible materials here have much more give than potentially rigid rotomolded plastic boats. Very interesting rebar story, that’s the kind of thing I was thinking of when I commented on the previous video. Good to here thanks for the info!!

[@davedriscoll1652]

Real interesting, i saw one of these skin boats when i was living in minnesota. I really thought it was made with deer skins or canvas. Im interested in these. Will keep watching to learn more. God bless.

[@qaannat]

Buddy had a punture/slice in the Gooped standard skin F1, but he was high sided on a cypress knee with barnacles. It was a lot easier to fix than gelcoat.

[@redfishbum]

Thank you for this video, very helpful. I'm a Florida paddler for the last 16 years. Oysters the thing that I encounter almost every time. I flyfish out of my sit on top Tarpon 160 and have been looking for a lighter alternative. This has been very helpful for my research. I am still leaning towards a cedar strip canoe at the moment. Your videos are outstanding!

[@capefalconkayak]

There’s no free lunch here, if you glass up your cedar canoe to where you can hit oysters with impunity it’s going to be heavy and still takes 200 hours to build. If you put a 12 oz skin and 5 layers of coating (a reasonable oyster layup) it’s going to be about 37 lbs in one of my kayaks and 40 in one of my solo canoes. Your best strength to weight is going to come from leaving the wood behind altogether and buying one of the new ultra tough composites. But your still talking 40’s

[@hillbilly4christ638]

Thanks for the video. This really makes me feel at ease approaching a sof boat.

[@darrellbedford4857]

Informative video. I am not a canoer or kayaker but enjoyed the video you put out. In past videos where you are building the boats it looks like you are in your house, living or dining room. Am i right?

[@iambeeman1]

You do beautiful work, and you should be proud. I'm more of a composite guy, but I work with it every day. But would it be possible to skin one of your boats in something like Kevlar and epoxy resin it?

[@capefalconkayak]

You could do it but I don’t think there’s a real reason to do it. It would just end up heavier and less strong it’s just not the right material for the job. Once the lab would get to where you would want it then you got to ask yourself why am I carrying around this extra 20 pounds of frame inside for no reason?

[@chipsterb4946]

Thank you! Very interesting comparison between sof boats and composite boats. Sounds like some attention to reinforce the bow, stern & keel areas would be well worth the effort and any extra weight.

[@capefalconkayak]

I put high density polyethylene strips in the stern of my modern kayaks and brass stem bands around the bow and stern of the full-size canoes.

[@chipsterb4946]

@@capefalconkayak thanks for your useful replay and all of the great content.

[@matthewszostek1819]

You can paint the bottom with roll on truck bed liner in high wear areas. It definitely works. I used it on my sailboat as hull paint. The trailer ripped off my truck on the interstate and crashed into the guardrail. The boat suffered one puncture from the steel frame but everything else was just a surface abrasion that didn't go through the paint. I'll never use anything else for hull paint. It mimics all the characteristics of shark skin.

[@capefalconkayak]

Good info. I’ll have to experiment with that. Very few things will chemically stick to this stuff so it would be really interesting if that works.

[@empe3332]

@@capefalconkayak What do you think about PU coats used on 4x4 in Europe? U-pol Raptor is best knows. It is cheaper than marine stuff and well proven and impressive.

[@capefalconkayak]

@@empe3332 The only thing I know that works well for sure is Coelan, but it's more expensive than getting what I use shipped from the states.

[@ivogarza9339]

That looks like a northern kayak modified for rivers. Are you ready to release those plans? I'm ready to build another one and that design looks like the ticket to compliment the F1.

[@duendedude2345]

How much is the 2 pack poly coating a factor of durability ? This seems not to be available in the UK. Would using Four coats yacht varnish significantly reduce durability? Thanks for another great video.

[@capefalconkayak]

Your other option in Europe is a product called Coelan but it’s literally more expensive than having the two part shipped from America and the fumes are toxic enough to burn the hair off your chest. People have used more ordinary varnishes over the years and it works but you do take a significant durability and longevity hit. On the plus side those coatings are typically recordable whereas this one is not

[@xerepapeti9642]

Hi. It was a great video to watch for me. I learned alot. I have some questions. Is it possible to build a 6 meter trimaran or catamaran sailboat with skin on frame and cross big seas or ocean?

[@capefalconkayak]

Technically yes but there would be so many problems you would have to solve that by the time you were done actually making it it would have been easier and better to build it out of plywood.

[@KK-no7be]

I'm pretty impressed that the rebar didn't go through it.

[@plfreeman111]

Oysters. The utility knives of the sea.

[@capefalconkayak]

Ah but revenge is delicious!

[@XsnipxrmainX]

Yesterday I got caught in the current down into the river mouth had to pull up on oyster rocks. The end of my trip.

[@freshlysaltedfishing8500]

@@XsnipxrmainX yeah I feel for you bro.

[@Leanthalas]

yes im always afraid of a lost samuray sword stuck in driffwood pointing upwards while im out kayaking on my SOF... i thought i was the only one....

[@anniemalone8556]

Great stories thankyou.....but what I have been searching for is there annual maintenance needed because every year I have to revarathane bow and stern were it leaks and it doesn't seem normal to have to do this....

[@capefalconkayak]

I think it just depends on the cloth that you used and the type of urethane. I use a much tougher urethane then what is commonly available.

[@Quaker-sn5fr]

Loved the stories Brian. Have you any more that you can relate... I'd like to hear them.

[@notthepainter]

Absolutely. Just sit by a campfire, beverage of your choice, and tell us some stories! I'd watch that.

[@Kenji1685]

This is probably a dumb question; would it make sense to use epoxy rather than polyurethane?

[@oncorhynchus5]

I saw all those plastic whitewater boats. Ever consider making a SOF whitewater boat?

[@necspenecmetu-24]

it maybe a stupid question but what do you exactly mean by "9 ounce skin"? is it nylon or what?

[@jerrymcintire7902]

The fabric weight, or thickness, is 9 ounce. It is usually dacron.

[@nicolaszajaropulos8579]

Such a good video.

[@ColinPittendrigh]

Somebody needs to build a skin on frame white water dory-perhaps with 20oz nylon? Would rolled on Barge Cement be more flexible and repairable than Polyurethane? On a theoretical skin on frame white water dory, would it make sense to use Kevlar instead of or in addition to nylon--at least for the bottom? Kevlar doesn't heat shrink. But there is always a way. A 3/4" inch plywood decked white water dory can weigh close to 500lbs. A skin on frame boat might be 100lbs. Or less? That would be a game changer.

[@capefalconkayak]

The barge cement wouldn’t work and Kevlar wouldn’t work very well in this application but there have been plenty of Umiaks built with 20 ounce fabric. It works it’s very tough

[@nicktucker1477]

Do you have any fishing models for a 230 lb person

[@krunoslavcicmir5166]

Just wondering if possible to build sit on top kayak, great work!

[@capefalconkayak]

Technically yes but there’s a lot of hurdles that makes it make a lot more sense just to build that type of kayak out of plywood.

[@johnryan2193]

The Curragh is a large skin on frame traditional boat of the West Coast of Ireland .these have m

[@scottgorman7166]

Great video...what's refreshing is your straight with the audience, no BS just the facts. Barbed wire huh...ever hear of no trespassing, stay on your own farm fella.(>:

[@capefalconkayak]

It’s funny that you would say that because I was literally in the middle of a farmers field when it happened!

[@russomauricio]

Fantastic vídeo, as usual, a huge amount of information for 20 minutes of vídeo, worth listening many times. What about using epoxy instead of polyurethane? What are the pros and cons of making this change? Kudos again

[@eclogite]

My guess is that people don't generally use epoxy for these because it's generally less flexible (and so would crack) and much more expensive than polyurethane

[@JurasekMichajl]

guys i need that small device that bryan uses when pumping water out of boat by hand in other videos, whats it called?

[@kevchard5214]

A hand bilge pump?

[@pablomacchiavello]

why don't you use glued pvc tarpaulin?

[@PeaceProfit]

Moral of the story... skin on frame boats are protected by a higher power, CARE & LUCK.

[@mypronounismaster4450]

You do you use poly instead of epoxy resin?

[@capefalconkayak]

People have used epoxy on skin boats with varying degrees of success it’s not that it can’t work it’s just that it’s not a flexibility match to the fabric and so it tends to crack and disintegrate

[@mypronounismaster4450]

​@@capefalconkayak So epoxy has less flex. Good to know. Thanks.

[@WillN2Go1]

"Dragging them across parking lots"? You mean John Peterson/Shaman Kayaks mistreating a skin boat?( I shot that video!) kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYrcp3x7rbyep7c Dare anyone to watch it and think SOFs are the least bit fragile. With respect Cape Falcon: sitting around talking proves absolutely nothing. Why not just link to John's torture video, where he demonstrates everything you need to know. He dragged it across sharp rocks, dropped it off the roof of his truck, these are all things that happen to kayaks. He was finally able to puncture the skin by hammering a screwdriver into it. Since I shot that video I've made my own Iqyax (aka baidarka). Great materials, fun build, beautiful to paddle. Not as tough as my fiberglass over strip kayaks... but there's no de-lamination issues-- so far it's held up better than they have. And until sharks start carrying hammers and screwdrivers...... Why did John mistreat the skin boat? It had a broken rib that needed replacing, the skin was a several years old and he wanted to replace it, so let's do an engineering test to failure.

[@capefalconkayak]

Hey there, I didn't mean to offend anyone, I haven't talked to John in many years but last time I checked we are still friends. The point I thought I made was that those tests do show people that skinboats aren't as fragile as people assume they are, but they don't accurately approximate the real forces that a skin boat faces on the water. I've given a ton of thought to how to do that on dry land but it's impossible to replicate a high force low velocity impact in a viscous fluid at a (usually) acute impact angle. All you can do is just use the boats in harsh conditions and see how they hold up over time. Skinboats are astonishingly impact resistant to most objects, and less abrasion resistant than some harder composite materials. It's not a competition, just a comparison.

[@joesprague1464]

The greatest damage I've seen done to skin on frame boats is improper storage especially those that are left outside exposed to the elements .

[@SuperJhon360]

Give me.one and ill real life test it most of the time my canoe bottoms out and just drags and scrapes at sudden elevation changes in the river near my house

[@kolp9737]

Sand is the enemy. If sand (tiny granules of rock) gets in the kayak it goes into the skin and lodges in the sealing and skin. The sand granules will eventually cause holes to develop.

[@capefalconkayak]

That’s right but if you only slightly round the stringers it makes a huge difference.

[@Taubenshit]

Dude your boats Are such an work of Art / i playing with the idea of Building one my Self ( Never Build a boat in my life/ im a carpenter so i know my way around using Wood) Any tips for getting started in Building a Skin boat?

[@jackp492]

I'm biased because I grew up there but check out currachs it's a traditional irish boat they use all over but where I grew up west coast atlantic they could take it and they look pretty cool especially the southwest coastal designs

[@ivan55599]

How about animal skin?

[@skeggiskjeldarson9513]

A filmed pod cast.

[@egidioztto8424]

Sei sempre molto interessante. In questi video pero’, dopo 10 minuti di solo bla bla bla, mi stavo sparando nei testicoli!!!

[@stevenb7319]

First?

[@capefalconkayak]

?

[@stevenb7319]

Cape Falcon Kayak sorry I wasn’t trying to mess with you “First to comment”. 😆 I watch some videos where it’s 200 comments in the first 5 min so it’s good to comment first once in a while. Apologies for distracting or confusing. Great video though.